The Automotive Philosopher

Aaron Warren

Aaron Warren
Location
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Birthday
June 07
Bio
My fascination with automobiles and just about everything mechanical started, I think, when a small cluster of cells developed somewhere in the first trimester of my existence. I have always been a fanatic. I am, however, not what one would call a gearhead – but a connoisseur, an automotive philosopher. I look at automobiles the way an art critic looks at the creation of a new talent, the way a vinter critiques a new wine, or the way an antiquarian sums up a piece or fine rare furniture. An automobile, to me, is more than the sum of its mechanical parts. It is an exercise in rolling art. Art so complex that it captivates every sense. So, here I find myself in my first “pleasure” writing format looking to share my insight, opinions, emotions, and knowledge on the subject. I am a, person who revels in being able to work on my own vehicle as well. To me a grease monkey is one which messes about with cars, usually doing more harm than good. I think of myself as more of a surgeon or technician in this regard. Precision requires, well, precision. I have spent the better part of my professional career in the automotive industry in a sales, training, and development capacity. I have an intimate understanding of this industry; its triumphs and shortcomings along with the products that are the result. On a personal level, I am obsessive about the car culture. Every venture I take out into the world is a hunt for a rare glimpse of obscure chrome, or an unidentified engine note. To me, driving is a sort of Zen like experience melding man and machine. The feel of an automobile as it moves and responds to your inputs can make or break one’s experience with a vehicle. Some of the most beautiful cars in the world are absolutely atrocious to actually drive. Harsh, fragile, monstrous beasts that are near impossible to control and civil. The thorns of the rose, if you will. Oh, how I love them so! I read auto industry statistics the way some read the sports page. I visit local dealers to examine new cars the way one examines a vintage comic book. I am the guy in his garage, in a lab-coat, nonetheless, cleaning his engine, and listening to the valvetrain with a stethoscope. I can diagnose most engine issues purely by sound, and can identify most cars by the sounds of their engines. I look at the valve cover of the Jaguar XK engine with the reverence of a religious icon and the intake of a Chevrolet 350 as though it were Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa. I am a student of all things automotive… So, come along with me on my adventure through this world of automobiles, automobile culture, business, enthusiasm, and philosophy!

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Salon.com
Editor’s Pick
AUGUST 5, 2009 3:48AM

Cash for Clunkers or Requiem for a Car

Rate: 11 Flag

CFC  

I’ve been writing vehemently on this topic ever since it’s proposal on many forums, and have been speaking a great deal about it in my professional life. Generally speaking, I must (usually) stick to the facts and only the facts, offering up an un-biased objective take on the matter, which is still negative. It is only in the Blogosphere where one can truly pontificate and in this case weep at the true tragedy behind the Cars for Clunkers program…  

You see, the program was initially conceived as a means to further stimulate the automotive economy by incenting folks to dump their less efficient autos for NEW fuel efficient machinery. I suppose the billions that the government has already thrown at the industry wasn’t enough. A couple billion more under the guise of economic reform, environmental reason, and well, more auto industry support couldn’t hurt, right? Well, to me, it does! It really hurts! Like stubbing your pinky toe on the dresser when finding your way to the loo at 3am, hurts! 

The program, in its most basic form is fine. It’s the destruction of vehicles that have a great deal of life left in them that hurts not only me as a fellow car guy, but an entire industry. On a recent trip to one of the dealerships near my home, I walked the line of cars that have come in under the cash for clunkers program (C4C). I was astonished to see gleaming metal. Newish cars with PLENTY of life left in them, that have had their engines DESTROYED for the sake of a 4mpg increase! 

CFC truck 

Initially, dealers were instructed to pour a sodium compound into the engine oil which would, after a period of running the engine at high RPMs, basically weld all the internal moving components of the engine in-place, in turn rendering (basically) the entire engine, and all of its components utterly useless!  Now that many a car have been brought in under the program, dealers have had an issue destroying cars and later finding out that they do not meet the qualifications for the program! Try explaining that to a customer! I wonder if any suits have been filed as a result of deals falling through, and the trade in being destroyed by the dealer/government? 

Anyway… The problem starts at the used car lot. Many of you may be parent s of teenagers, teenagers close to driving age. Some of you may be like me, and are WELL aware of the poor financial sense buying a new car really makes, and some may, like me again, be lovers of older autos in general. A teen looking for a car isn’t going to have $30k to dump on a reasonable new car. At least not in my neighborhood… A bit further North, yes, but in my subdivision, no. Most work part time, and have saved up a few grand to pick up their first set of SWEET wheels at the local ma-and-pop used car lot. Usually, they spend between $3-6k on their first car. The C4C program is going to make that a whole lot harder… 

Under C4C, people who would normally trade in their aged wheels, people like your grandma with her ’95 Mercury with 18,000 miles on it are taking their cars in to take advantage of the program, and the $4500 rebate. The ’95 Mercury, as stated above, is indeed a cheap car, only worth a couple thousand bucks. This isn’t because it’s a bad car, but rather, there’s LOTS of them. Ford built a ZILLION of these things every year they were in production for use as personal cars, taxis, police cars, government cars, etc. There’s lots, and the market is full of them. That is until the C4C program DEVOURED most of the viable cars. So, the little old lady to-from church car with its gleaming paint, carpets untouched by shoes, and plastic still covering the spare will have its engine destroyed, and will end up being sold for scrap! Obviously that car has load of life left in it. A great first car, etc. 

An entire industry of sub $10k cars will be put out to pasture as a result of this program. The used cars that are left over, due to market demand, will themselves increase in value due to their relative scarcity, and a domino effect will be realized. The days of good cheap used cars will be over! Hell, the days of BAD cheap used cars will be over too!

imperial  

On the other front, we have the auto parts recycling market. Many of the parts that I use to maintain both my “modern” and antique fleet of cars are used. The fact that the government is requiring the all out destruction of these car’s engines tells me that there is an ulterior agenda at work here. Auto recycling yards are having fits over this as well. 60% of a salvage vehicles value lies in the engine/transmission which under the C4C program, is required to be destroyed. It's almost as though the government is trying to get all older cars off the road, and make it impossible to service them as well. Perhaps they should take a look at Englands MoT, and even their Motor Heratige Trust to see a country that loves their cars, and has a system in place to ensure that cars are roadworthy and safe! 40/50 year old cars are a fairly common sight in the UK, and the governement takes pride in the fact that so many of their native vehicles are still running strong! They have a system of inspections wherein a car must meet certain standards to remain licensed...

As was quoted recently on Jalopnik.com, Bruce Luther of Rock and Roll Auto Recycling in Pleasanton, CA said “The CARs act is written… is horseshit beyond repair!” and goes further to indicate that the current scrap value is at about $140 per ton, which means a 2 ton car is only worth about $280 as scrap. Take out the estimated cost to remove all fluids and “detox” the car, which is about $200, as required by law, your once gleaming motorcar is not only worth $80, if nothing more can be sold off of it!

junkers  

You may be thinking, what about the interior and body… Well, if you’ve ever been to an auto recycler, you’ll notice that the cars usually have their windows removed, that is, if they were not already destroyed in the process of moving them around the lot. So, the interiors are usually exposed to the elements, etc, and not really worthy of being transplanted. Some of the more “shielded” components, perhaps, but most are quickly destroyed by dust and moisture.  

A great many classic and rare cars are finding the most devastating end in this manner. It brought a slight tear to my eye to watch one dealership take a very rare and beautiful ’94 Jaguar Majestic and give it a dose of silicon silicate in the oil to bring to a halt its glorious V12 engine. I sat in, and drove this car around the lot before it’s destruction. It showed 126k on the clock, and was PERFECT. Not a scratch on it! The interior was recently reupholstered too!

Jag Majestic  

As they poured the poison into the engine, it sputtered a bit, as to say “Oy! What’s this shite you be passing off as oil, to me!” The porter then brought the revs up to about 3k and held them there. Soon, the cap on the coolant reservoir started steaming, and the glorious growl of the great beast was overshadowed by an ominous squeal. The squeal then grew louder, followed by the sound of metal on metal. A shrill grinding sound, not unlike what is heard by the slipping wheels of a steam locomotive. Then, all at once, there was silence. The grand machine’s days of stately motoring were over. The machine that was loveingly assembled by craftsman in the town of Coventry, was purchased by a discerning motorist, lived as a member of the family - took trips, is full of memories, had a story all its own, has been silenced, never to bring a grin to the face of those who had the pleasure of depressing it's "happy" pedal... This fine machine, the axiom of engineering and craftsmanship has officially been removed from cirrculation!

Please note: The engine on the above car, if it was as nice as it seemed during my brief drive and inspection would fetch SEVERAL thousand dollars as a spare/used engine. More than the $4500 rebate offered by the government, and the $80 in raw materials which will be realized by the scrapyard. Due to the rarity of the trim spec on the car, I honestly haven't a clue what its fair market/"classic" car price would be. I pomise, though, that to the right buyer, it would be a multiple of the $4500 the owner gave it up for!

I desperately wanted to remove a token of this glorious machine to act as a memorial that its motoring life was not taken in vain. A peice of evidence that this car did exist. A reminder of its story - the story of it's death. The leaping hood ornament, a masterpeice in chrome, perhaps? No, that would be blasphemy! One should not desecrate this fine vehicle, by plucking parts from it’s still “warm" body. A boot emblem? No, that won't do either. NO! It shall go to the great highway in the sky, its dignity intact! It will be whole when it goes to meet the great manufacturer!

 old jag 

To take a line from the manliest movie of all, Babe… No not the one about the guy who played baseball, the one about the little talking pig. In the movie, the duck character warns the other animals that Christmastime was near, and that one would have to die in order to supply the family’s Christmas feast. It is at this point in the movie that the duck proclaims in a panic duckish voice “Christmas means carnage!”  By the way, the duck's girlfriend later became duck ala'orange for the farmer's feast...

So, it’s with that inspiration that I proclaim that Cash for Clunkers means CARNAGE! It is as such that the sound of the thousands of engines being put to such a needless, unglorious death will act as a requiem to cars around the world. To all who have gone before, I pour a quart on the curb…

 sad car 

(Note: I won’t actually be pouring a quart on the curb as oil is rather pricey, and I’m sure the EPA, another wise government entity, would surely frown upon this...)

 

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Comments

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This is a great piece of writing - a heartfelt and logical response to this program. How can trashing all these cars be better for the environment? I almost covered my ears at your description of the Jag grinding down! I wouldn't consider trading in my old Buick. There's a lot of life left in her, and when she doesn't run anymore, someone might need the mirror or window for their old Buick.
Good piece Aaron. Like so many government programs, the baby is being tossed out with the bathwater in the name of expedience. How about targeted removal; for example Mustangs built between 1974 and 1978?

Thanks and rated.
Rated. I don't understand it properly, but one of the car guys I know says that new vehicles from 1995 had some kind of technology change - a computer part maybe? - that dramatically lowered emissions. He feels like the government was ridiculous in including cars from that year. He also is lamenting your point - anyone who wants to buy a used car this year is going to get hammered by inflationary prices because of greatly reduced supply.
Two things.

#1. They could have allowed the dealers to sell all parts except the engines to auto junk yards.

#2. I saw a report yesterday that 4 out of the top five cars purchased under this program were Toyota's or Hondas. The one American car was the Ford Focus.

Wasn't the idea to help the American car companies?

The government does NOTHING right.
We sold our used car for $500 yesterday to an auto repair shop. We knew the car needed about $2500 of work ($700 just to pass inspection). We are buying our uncle's used minivan this week for $3500. We need a minivan because we need space for a third car seat in another 6 weeks or so.

Cash for clunkers only works if you plan to buy a brand new car. I used a GM credit card for a decade on the thought that it would be a form of savings for a new car one day. Then I realized, unless I win the lottery, I am never going to be a "new car" kind of woman.

So there will be a market for used cars, as long as the people getting rid of their used cars are getting "newer" used cars rather than brand new cars.
I am in mourning also over hearing about perfectly good cars destroyed by governmental fiat as well... and no one in my immediate family has ever owned a totally new-drive-off-the-dealer lot car. Not one. Indeed, my father kept an early 1950s Plymouth Station wagon in trim for thirty years, later buying a second one just to keep the first one in parts! Attention, people - America is full of people who cannot afford or think it's a waste of money to buy a new car!
This very week, I put my own extremely aged Volvo 242 DL sedan on EBay, as it is now too old and mechanically unreliable for me to drive regularly, but there are some collectors who have been bidding on it all this week, and I will be happy to turn it over for the winning bid, knowing that my dear old Volvo will have a devoted slave to pamper and care for her, as I do not have the ability or the pocketbook to do.
And I bought a 90 Accura, low mileage and with one owner, in almost pristine condition, for a little under $3,000 ... and now I suspect that I have rescued a perfectly wonderful, well-kept car from the horrible fate of the Jaguar Majestic.
Our "clunker" is a 92 Nissan 4WD pickup that runs like a top. The truck is indestructible, but unfortunately too small for a family. The car we want doesn't qualify for CFC. If we were buying another SUV or truck, we'd only have to improve by 2 mpg. But if we switch to a different class (cars), the mileage improvement requirement is much stiffer. I don't quibble with it, I think mileage improvement is a great goal. But why should CFC almost encourage us to buy another SUV instead of a car? The car we want gets better mileage than the SUVs we qualify for under CFC. Ridiculous.

So we're skipping CFC. We're selling the truck to a young guy at our auto mechanic's shop who has wanted it for years. It would have made me sad to see it scrapped.
Well written, and well reasoned. I particularly appreciated this post, because my own perspective is very different. I have no nostalgia for any automobile, and I'd like to see the entire auto industry shrink by about 85%. It's insane to stimulate people to buy new cars (even if they get much more than 4 mpg fuel efficiency increase) because it takes so much energy and resources to build each new car. Leave the old cars in use, raise gas taxes, stop expanding the road network, and invest in public transit.
I'm rather certain I heard a story on this on NPR yesterday that said there are four salvage operations that take custody of the cars once the engines are disabled.

All the other useful bits are being harvested, at least according to that broadcast, before the Clunker meets the Crusher.

Personally, I'd like to see another version of C4C after we've ramped up a decent light rail system in this country: Give up your car and ride for free for two years.
Wow! Thanks for all of the great feedback! The program itself is frought with questions... I heard part of the NPR broadcast, and did some research. The 4 that are taking the cars, are salvaging other matierials from the cars, also for recycling.

Blackflon, it would be extremely difficult for dealers to pull a con on thr government, reselling the C4C cars. The cars MUST be registered into the program before they get their rebates. Once registered, the cars can not be titled. I simply don't see why the engines must be destroyed? let the salvage yards do their jobs, and let the consumers benefit from the influx of cheap used parts. The EPA will be pleased, as rather than consuming energy in a destructive process, of which only a small percentage actually does make it into new cars, be productive with it... I'm going through enough tissue overe here to take out a small forrest! 8^)

David, indeed, they want those cars... However, do they actually get them? It's been my experience as a former car dealer that they come in looking at those vehicles, and leave with a far more "humble" set of wheels. The cars DO qualify for the programs, if they meet the mileage requirements. If you can find a car that gets more than 4mpg better than your cherry '97 civic, like VW TDI, or a hybrid, your good as gold!

In speaking with some of my used car lot buddies, they're already seeing the impact of this. A local auction house is also realising a decrease in vehicles being placed on the block. It's all begning to stink like yesterday's garbage.

With the credit situation in the US being as bad as it is, wouldn't it make more sense to re-write credit reporting laws and standards, perhaps socializing the reporting system, and allow even more people to move into a shiny new, or newer used car based purely on their budget - at the same time, supporting market demand and an entire industry centered around used cars/parts? It just seems such a waste...

I'm going to go in my garage and cuddle with my clunkers, and reassure them of their saftey!

Thanks again, everyone!
Only a moron trades in a valuable car for $4,500.00. Sure, it's sad to see nice cars get trashed, but the fact is that for every beautiful V12 Jaguar gone, there are hundreds of Ford Explorer shitboxes being taken off the roads. Plus, the program--even with renewed funding--won't eliminate even 1 million cars, and all of those will get crap for mileage. No sedan with an engine smaller than 8 cylinders is likely to even qualify for the program, let alone actually be destroyed.

As for why the engine has to be destroyed, it doesn't seem necessary to me, but I think that provision was probably necessary to get the environmentalists on board (and thus win the bill sufficient support to pass).
I'm wondering if you're overstating the problem, given that this program is out of money. Not only is it limited to low-mpg cars, but there just weren't enough trade-ins to impact the market the way you suggest. My thoughts, anyway. (But it's nice to see someone's passion for cars. I'm not into them myself, but my son is a real car lover).
Whoever traded in that V12 is a moron if the market value is indeed more than $4500. Don't blame Uncle Sam for somebody else's stupidity.
By the way, the 3 most popular cars traded in under the program are the 96, 97 and 98 Ford Explorer. Nobody should be shedding tears over these miserable mass produced garbage.
You are also wrong that these cars are being destroyed for a measly 4mpg improvement (which is rather significant when you're talking about
Couple points:
KBB value for Jag with those numbers = $3,900 if excellent.
Not a great bargain for the seller but much easier than waiting for the right buyer.


Just guessing but the average fuel efficiency for trade-ins is going to be significantly higher than the minimum 4mpg
The Top Ten Cash for Clunkers Trade-Ins:

1. 1998 Ford Explorer 2. 1997 Ford Explorer 3. 1996 Ford Explorer
4. 1999 Ford Explorer 5. Jeep Grand Cherokee 6. Jeep Cherokee
7. 1995 Ford Explorer 8. 1994 Ford Explorer 9. 1997 Ford Windstar
10. 1999 Dodge Caravan

The Top Ten Cash for Clunkers New Cars:

1. Ford Focus 2. Honda Civic 3. Toyota Corolla 4. Toyota Prius
5. Ford Escape 6. Toyota Camry 7. Dodge Caliber
8. Hyundai Elantra 9. Honda Fit 10. Chevy Cobalt

I'm guessing closer to 10-12 mpg better on average.
Given average driving this is enough mpg difference to offset the resources it takes to manufacture a new car in under two years (it takes about 73 gigajoules to produce the average car, which converts to 554 gal of gas).

At most, there will be 1 million clunkers traded in. Given the 260 +/- million registerd vehicles in the U.S. I don't believe we will see a dramatic increase in prices for used cars. There are still millions of inexpensive used cars that don't qualify because mpg is too high and millions of owners that can't afford to trade up to a new car.

That said I appreciate your passion.
Great article, but there are two points that need emphasis/clarity: One, that the environmental impact of building tons of new cars tends to outweigh the environmental benefit of driving the new, fuel-efficient vehicle (ESPECIALLY if grandma only drives it 18k!).

I'm also curious to know what the environmental impact would be of retrofitting old cars with better engines/internals, rather than scrapping them. Clearly most of the frame/upholstery etc. can last ages, and it ain't cheap to completely re-fabricate this stuff. Of course, this would do little to help GM, but, uh, whatever.

Last, I wouldn't be too worried about expensive Jaguars being junked. The fact is, if a car is worth more than 4,500, MOST people will sell it for more. Economics does kinda work.
Blackfon's got it right. Under the cash for clunkers program, U.S. taxpayer dollars are being spent to subsidize Foreign autoworkers and help protect their jobs, not the jobs of U.S. auroworkers.
My beloved Chrysler Concord is on the clunker list. It is the best car I have ever known. Even the one new one I have had. It is fully equipped. It has traction control that gets me up my long snowy driveway. It is valued at around $500.00 in Kelleys"s blue book. I bought it for around $4000.00. It is a luxury liner. Yes, an old lady's car. It doesn't have a mark on it. One day I was the supermarket and an old friend from my military unit came up to me and said " You have my old car" I was so happy because he was the motor sargeant from that unit. It has never needed anything on inspection except for brakes and one new tire. It is a 1995. I am so sad that my car is held in such bad disregard. I can't afford a new car. Before I would trade it in for Cash for Clunkers I would give it a decent burial. I sort of like the program but not for my car. I will keep it. Maybe use it as a coffin.
Sorry I'm late. Busy yesterday, and missed this great piece of writing!!
You write as if the car were a person, and you had just left the funeral, and were talking of the times you shared. I totally agree. My first cars were all used, and I put hundreds of thousands of miles on them. I never wanted a new car. Cheap? No. I love "old" cars. I've have at least five 65-68 mustangs, which i treasured. And all my kids had good "used" first cars. You have to be rich or and idiot, which is the same thing, to buy a new car for a 16 year old. This was well worth an Editors Pick!!
Excellent piece which captured some of the personal side of the industry and this program.
Check my post from Monday on the "efficacy" of cash for clunkers from the buyer and dealer benefit side of things.
I really liked your writing style. You know dealers, manufacturers and cars and bring an interesting and compelling perspective.
I'm a "car guy" too--having been in sales and training for a couple of OEMs and currently looking for a new gig.
Thanks.
Congratulations on the EP. It was well deserved with this deeply felt, and thoroughly researched post. Your description of the death of the Jaquar was so graphic, it was as emotional as watching an elephant get slaughtered.

I do believe that this administration is trying to solve the problems they've inherited in the best way possible, but they got stuck with a big, hot mess of crap. You just can't please everyone and something needed to be done. Thanks for pointing out an overlooked negative effect. Perhaps another round will alleviate some of these problems, while achieving the original goals of stimulating automotive purchases.
Excellent article. Like a few others here, I'm not sorry to see those monster Explorers off the road so I think the CforC program has some merit. But greatly enjoyed your analysis.
Great piece.

You missed a few things. Old car for kids. News a few new parts. Parts supply out of business.

Body could use a little help. Lay off a bodyman.

Great MPG, lay off a gas station person.

I sure that if I sat here I could think of a few more problems that are created while trying to fix one that I don't think should be fixed. I don't see where the Feds have the right to take my money to help you buy a car. You are not going to lend it to me for a hot date tonight are you? Now if you use my money to build a road, that is something we will both use.

Also am I the only one who is upset because Congress is picking winners and losers? 8% of my profession came off the road last year. You don't see anything for truck drivers do you? Why can't we win.

Beside I get 6.8 MPG from my truck. With about $20k in upgrades I can get it to 11+ MPG. I drive 140,000 miles per year. I alone would save 7861 gallons of fuel EACH year. The ROI on that investment would be less than one year. How long is it going to take a car owner to save that much fuel and how long is the ROI on that investment?
I have mixed feelings about this program. I'm not sure if we'll have a net environmental gain in the long run or not, but getting some of the dinobeasts off the roads is a good thing in a lot of ways. Fewer SUVs is a very good thing - safer for other people on the road.

I would love to see a program to promote the development of car share programs like I-Go or Zipcar in more markets. While this may not be a practical option for everyone, it makes a lot more sense for many of us who don't need to drive every day. It's a very liberating feeling not to worry about maintenance schedules and some of the more expensive and frustrating details of owning a car.

Car sharing has really taken off in Chicago since it was introduced several years ago. Outside of major cities, college towns are the biggest market for this kind of service in the U.S.
I'm really honnored to have been chosen for an EP so early in my blogging "career'! Funny thing... I didn't even know I got an EP on this article! It took my meeting some wonderful Chicago bloggers last night at the lake-front, congradulating me, to realise it! I had no idea! Typicall, I'm always the last to know! Again, thank you!

Also, thank your for all of your great feedback and insight! I could have provided several hundred pages on the considerations of the program, but was more interested in the not so common negative aspects that seem to have been overlooked by a great many.

I reveived an e-mail last night from my Mothers Cousin who read my post, and owns an auto body/hotrod shop. She is really concerned as to how this is going to affect her supply chain. As we all know, insurance companies love to use used parts to fix cracked up autos...

I'm with just about everyone who has indicated that they won't be missing the Ford Explorers that have been taken off the road as a result of the program. Indeed, there are cars that the program is appropriate for, but based on my driving around, and talking to my dealer-buddies, about 25% of the cars are honestly good, useable machines, being put out to pasture before their prime!

All in all, only time will tell what impact this program really has, be it environmental, or economic.

As you all have probably noticed by reading this, and my other posts, I truly have a passion for cars, and the industry in general. I tend to stray away from matters of politics, focusing more (rather) on the history, design, and cultural aspects of automobiles and the industry. However, I felt that this topic was indeed of enough importance to bring up a few concerns, and now see that I'm not the only one!

Thanks again for all the great feedback and ratings! I'll look forward to your comments on my past and future writing!

Happy motoring,

Aaron
Good news!

I just checked Craigslist in my area and there are still tons of crappy cars to go around! In fact my search for vehicles for less than $4,000 in the Seattle area turned up hundreds of clunkers!
I thought the same thing yesterday morning, "finstotheleft". So, I picked 10 random $4k cars. I called on them all. 3 were no longer for sale, and were traded in under the program. 2 were in a pending status, having been traded in, but a loan not secured yet. 2 more were still for sale, as the owners didn't want to see them destroyed, and didn't want to buy a new cars, and the final 3 were cars being listed by local used car lots. Themselves, wonder how this ultimatley would impact their business...

I just came to another interesting realization on the numbers being quoted... How is it that these numbers are coming back so quickly? I called around (again) to the boys, and so far, none of them have reported anything back, and most are still sitting on the paperwork that needs to be filed, etc. I'm wondering if they're somehow taking a snapshot of data, by region, and calculating out the numbers... Not sure on this one.

Also, the fact that the dealers, after the program was underway, were notified that "by the way, these $4500 rebates we're giving you count as taxible income" by the government, post fact! What's it with the governmnet always wanting to tax government money? It's like the taxes on SSI and Unemployment... Why not simply budget accordingly, and or pay out a reduced amount. It's still "taxed" but I'll feel more warm and fuzzy thinking it's not, when not seeing it beig deducted! 8^)
it wasn't actually stated as one of the goals of the program but there's something to be said for raising the cost of driving outright, so that people who can't afford $10K cars simply don't drive.

Many countries do this. A buddy of mine who lived in Japan for a long time said that they purposely made it really expensive to own a car simply because they don't want their roads clogged up. The well off can own a car and others take public transportation or ride a bike. I suspect Sweden is similar because when I was there last month I saw almost ZERO clunkers on the road - and lots of bikes.

But when I was in Mexico city about 15 years ago the streets were totally clogged with cars that wouldn't sell for $500 here, including many that were no longer running and people lived in, instead.

So, call me an elitist, but if we as a nation want to consumer less gas, pollute less, and get more people to use public transportation, well .......
"fins" I support that comment whole heartedly, even as a car guy!
fins2theleft

One of the problems with your argument is the size of this country. While public transportation may be fine for those in bigger cities that's not most of this country.

With the vast amounts of rural country and low density population areas public transportation is not an option. You have to own a car to get anything done.
Cars and automotives are considered a requirement rather than a luxury nowadays. If you add the cost of commuting between your office and home, or the money you spend whenever you need to go somewhere, you will realize that getting your own car can help you save a lot of money in the long run. In addition, having a car is a great convenience especially when emergency arises. With the economic recession, many people delay their plans of purchasing a brand new car. But the good news is that you can get a car at a fraction of the cost of new car by opting for a used vehicle instead of purchasing your dream car that may shake your budget.
used toyota
Tourism is now the life blood industry to the Orlando economy. Before Walt Disney developed his theme park there was little in Central Florida other than farms and orange groves. Today, Orlando is one of America's largest cities and has boomed over the last 30 years; however, there are some signals that the global economic crisis is about to have a major impact on the Central Florida economy.
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