aging hippie chick

aging hippie chick
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Nevada City, California, US
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June 02
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Horticultural Goddess
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Aging, yet immature, hippie chick. Married, musical, compulsively creative and scattered. Still trying to make sense out of life via Buddhism, composting, etc.

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Salon.com
OCTOBER 29, 2009 4:48PM

Cheering a gang rape, and gossiping at work.

Rate: 22 Flag

I just listened to a  "how could this happen?" discussion on NPR of the recent gang rape and beating in Richmond, where bystanders either cheered, participated, or did nothing while a 15 year old girl was raped after the prom (except the ones who finally did something, it should be noted, and called 911.  After 2 1/2 hours. . .  Not cause for gloating as a species, exactly, but it's something.)

Several things come to mind when hearing this horrific story.  Aside from the proven "diffusion of responsibility" phenomenon caused by a large group of bystanders, there's the unavoidable fact that many were enjoying or joining in the assault. 

Which brings up the issue of rape and misogyny.  And the issue of altruism vs. cruelty, one we ALL struggle with. 

Below are references to studies I heard about years ago, where both men and women felt rape is sometimes justifiable, and a study where over half of 300-some male college students admitted they would consider rape if they knew they would get away with it.  

(Addendum:  I take this study with a large grain of salt; I CERTAINLY don't think half of the men I know would rape, given the chance.  As Nick points out below, it's a hypothetical question, and we don't know how it was presented.  I'm just trying to address the fascination rape holds for our culture.)

This is pretty horrifying, requiring, as it does, suspension of empathy for the victim.  There is, however, something primal about rape - both men's and women's fantasies about it (NOT to be confused with wanting it to happen; this is an important distinction).  At the risk of being strung up by my fellow feminists,  I submit that sexual arousal around domination is somewhat hardwired into us. 

 And, biologically, you could make a case for rape being adaptive.  When the goal of humanity was to be physically strong enough to survive nature, the strongest male would impregnate women and produce strong progeny.  Men survived by being strong, women survived by being attractive to strong men (hence the historic competitive tendencies of women regarding attractiveness, and obsession therewith).

But there's also the pesky issue of cruelty.  Of, for lack of a better name, evil.

Violence and rage toward women goes back as far as history (in European/Middle East/Asian culture, anyway; Native Americans seem to have been free of it, from what I can tell).  I've not been able to make sense out of this, but I suspect it stems from lust; from the power being desired gives a woman; from the male archetype of being powerful and the ability of a "weak", female, unavailable object of  desire to deflate that archetype.

Much cruelty is, I suspect, just this normal desire for strength - gone bad.  At the far end of the strength continuum is enjoyment of power in any form, including sadism.  (Would that we could breed THAT gene out of the pool. . .  Gals: just say no to sadistic guys!)

Being physically strong is no longer so adaptive, at least when that strength is not tempered by compassionate, rational behavior.  But I suspect there is some residual hardwiring.

Ideally, in a new world where our survival depends more on cooperation than domination, our capacity for compassion and empathy overpowers our hardwiring.  But we also live in a world where, increasingly, power and material gain are glorified over kindness.  We haven't shed our vestigial love for power, or our sense that it's necessary to our survival (a self-fulfilling prophecy, alas, for us as a species). 

Growing up in a dangerous, hostile, materialistic world, and being deprived of the tempering influence of affectionate, effective parenting, sometimes combine, with horrific results.

In rough neighborhoods such as Richmond, less-educated/less-privileged/less-nurtured, and thus less self-directed young people are a) subjected to constant media images of "the good life" - meaning lots of money, power, good likker, and sexy women - and, b) aware they are not likely to attain such a life. 

A kid in a such a neighborhood who is also deprived of good parenting - made likely by the fact that their parents are living in the same high-stress/low-hope environment - becomes fertile ground for violence springing from frustrated desires, lack of empathy, and perceived humiliation by people who have something they want.

Much as I'd like to see those onlookers as evil, I suspect they're just, well, human.   And not entirely unlike me.  There is a long continnum of "when do I intervene" questions - on one end physical violence, on the other social cruelty. 

I sometimes struggle with how much to intervene when there is mean-spirited gossip where I work.  I'm pulled in two directions, as I suspect all of us are in such a situation: one, feeling sorry for the object of the gossip, and two, either being afraid of crossing the group that is ganging up on the victim (fearing I could be next), or relief that I'm part of the group in power, vs. the one being (verbally) stomped.  These are the same feelings that come into play when the violence is physical rather than social.  

We're not so different.

I've been on both sides of this moral equation; usually I speak up - I attribute this to an upbringing that included a lot of affection and empathy for MY emotions, and the message that I'm strong enough to do what's right.  And sometimes I feel too vulnerable or shy to say anything.  Or I don't like the person, either.  Or I'm glad it's them, and not me.

In short, we're all capable of being either monsters or heroes.  A life of skewed values and emotional famine, as experienced by many kids growing up in hopeless, chronically impoverished neighborhoods, tilts the odds toward the former, alas.

I don't know what we can do about these kids who are growing up violent, without empathy.  Sometimes I despair about it.  What I'm sure of, though, is that, to break this cycle, we as a society have to decide that we value people more than stuff.  We can challenge the rights of corporations that abuse workers in third world countries to feel our national appetite for new, cheap things.   We can, instead, return to  making what we use here, and paying a decent wage for it.  We can ensure that the right to healthcare supercedes the right to corporate profits.

We who are more rational, who get to decide how we behave, can exercise our "hero" muscles in many ways - by defending those who can't defend themselves, either because of weakness or absence; by striving for understanding of our fellow humans, even those we find repugnant; and by working to change what we as a culture value, from wealth and power to compassion.

Let's be heroes.

 (CLIP:)

The study was done by Malamuth of Univ. of Manitoba Harber and
Feshbach of UCLA, in the _Journal of Research in Personality_ 14 pg
121-137 1980. A study of UCLA undergraduates of both sexes response
to rape. A rape story was read by the subjects, who then answered
questions. In the story a male undergrad asks a female undergrad if
she wants a ride to her dorm. She says no, he thinks she is being,
"an arrogant bitch" he then forces her into the car and rapes her.

36% of the men self-reported sexual arousal while reading the
story. 37% identified with the rapist. 26% said the rapist was
justified (presumably because of the perceived insult). 38% said the
victim enjoyed being raped, while 47% of the women said the woman
enjoyed being raped (I am shocked by this). 8% of the men said the
victim could have stopped the rape, while 57% of the women thought
she could have stopped it. 36% of the men thought *all women* would
enjoy victimization, while 32% of the women thought *all women* would
enjoy victimization.

The worst part is 49% of the men said that the believe that other
men would rape if they could get away with it. Even more horrendous
on a scale of 1-5, 1 being most likely, when asked if *THEY*
personally would rape if the could get away with it 51% fell between
1 and 2, and 21% fell on 3.

 

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Those are harrowing statistics.Knuckle dragging is not that far in the past it seems.
Those are horrifying statistics! Sorry, but it's NEVER right to force someone to do something against their will - perceived insult or no.

I missed this report on NPR - I'll have to go on-line and try to find it.
I won't EVEN go into evil in the form of corporations and a military-industrial complex that doesn't mind killing lots of people, as long as they don't know them, and as long as it enriches them. Don't get me started.
Rape is an excuse for not understanding compassion.
Interesting, Kate - can you say more?

alsoknownas - don't feel guilty for being a man. Not my intention.
I am underwhelmed by the survey.

People tend not to know what they *would* do in hypothetical situations.

Plenty of people have rape fantasies that would never, ever act them out in the real world. Women as well as men -- maybe more women. BDSM is full of fantasy that is only ok because it is heavily walled off by their safe/sane/consensual mantra. Maybe even then it isn't ok, but it is a totally different sort of pathology than violent crime.

As far as violence, I would suggest that people read the 'bystander effect' in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect#Social_psychology_research

"There are in fact many reasons why bystanders in groups fail to act in emergency situations, but social psychologists have focused most of their attention on two major factors. According to a basic principle of social influence, bystanders monitor the reactions of other people in an emergency situation to see if others think that it is necessary to intervene. Since everyone is doing exactly the same thing (nothing), they all conclude from the inaction of others that help is not needed. This is an example of pluralistic ignorance or social proof. The other major obstacle to intervention is known as diffusion of responsibility. This occurs when observers all assume that someone else is going to intervene and so each individual feels less responsible and refrains from doing anything.[citation needed]
There are other reasons why people may not help. They may assume that other bystanders are more qualified to help, such as doctors or police officers, and that their intervention would be unneeded. People may also experience evaluation apprehension and fear losing face in front of the other bystanders. They may also be afraid of being superseded by a superior helper, offering unwanted assistance, or facing the legal consequences of offering inferior and possibly dangerous assistance."

Anyway, the crime is horrifying, as is obvious. It is just the take away -- I don't know what to say, but it isn't simple, thats for sure.
As far as gossip.... well, I don't see a problem with most of it.

If it is particularly hurtful or insensitive or intrusive or has some problem other than being gossip per se, then it is appropriate to speak up or refuse to participate.

But vanilla variety gossip is part of human social life and I don't see it as a problem.

But other than that, I liked your post, HC. Sorry to seem to go all negative on you.
'sallright, Nick. Interesting comments. I'm with you on the bystander thing, and the hypothetical thing. I like to think all those college students would be stopped by feelings of empathy. Most would, I think.
And in another part of the world there is a thing called "Honor Rape" in which the male members of a girl who has been disgraced can gang-rape the daughter/sister of the male who disgraced the girl. And these people call themselves civilized. Rape is violence.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/malamuth/pdf/80Jap89.pdf

This is another study by the same people.

First, the research per se is not all that impressive, in my opinion. Secondly, all we have is a newspaper report regarding the findings, without all the qualifications, etc. that one would find in an academic paper. Thirdly, I would like to see the actual story in the study. I would expect that the story didn't involve a guy hitting a strange woman over the head and having his way with her. It would have to be ambiguous enough to make an engaging story. So, I just don't buy it.

Men are virtually uniformly opposed to the scenario that I suggested.... A stranger hitting a woman over the head and having his way with her. Situations that are less clear cut might well elicit different responses. But I have never heard of any man that would condone the hypothetical situation I am describing.

This is simply an opinion, but I don't like the idea that men are inherently rapists and barely socialized to keep it in their pants, sometimes. But when the moon is full, they revert to their reptilian origins and go mad.

So, I'm saying it isn't so.
Sorry, Nick - I didn't mean to imply that. I certainly don't believe that half of the men I meet would rape someone, given a chance. I just think it's a common fantasy. And sometimes the fantasy surfaces and wins out over conscience. Mostly not, though, which speaks well for the human race.
I wonder if I should remove that reference; I'm not sure what purpose it serves - I thought of it because the crowd was obviously enjoying the action, and it helped explain that, I thought. But I can imagine it might be deeply offensive to men, whom I love, by and large.
nick carroway...thanks for looking up and questioning that research. the numbers in that study seemed strangely high to me as well in comparison with other research I've read. the conditions in which you ask questions and the words or story you use to ask it would make a huge difference particularly with guys who are this age and trying to look macho.

still, the numbers are too high even if they're lower than the study suggests of kids that age who don't understand empathy or the consequences of actions like this on themselves or on others. I've read that the school had cut back on funding to security (no overtime hours) that otherwise might have been on hand to prevent this.

AHC--on a completely different note, it's amazing what a well placed comma can do. without the comma in your title it would make an even more horrific tabloid story....then the question would be about office workers and why they aren't empathetic with one another. Sorry I know it's a very serious discussion but sometimes grammar questions pop into my brain at inappropriate moments.
It is not just the disadvantaged, disenfranchised, kid in the hood that exhibits this behavior, but it is prevalent in rich, and upper class preppy types with plenty of money and privilege. I think because we have desensitised our children when it comes to violence, we are now raising a generation of monsters among us.

In the end the blame for this behavior must ultimately be laid at our feet. Our generation has somehow forgotten how to teach our children the things they should know.
do flo - you silly thing, you. Thanks for a laugh, on a day when I needed one.
True dat, Torman. I think the same dynamics turn rich kids into sociopaths - obsession with appearances and material wealth, combined with lack of effective parenting. Ironically, both groups of parents would likely be obsessed with getting money. Just flying by the seat of my pants, here. . .
Hey, aging hippy chick --

I am not offended in the least. Just a particularly skeptical guy.

You weren't the only person that referred to that study and I actually think presenting two sides gives this an interesting perspective.

I also am reluctant to defend men in any general way, since they tend to be all too sluttish. However, defending my team (male heterosexuals) against the insinuation that 1/2 of em are potential rapists -- I can go that far.
Also, AHC.....

I know you like men in particular.

I have noticed a non trivial number of women that seem to object to men in general but exclude those that they personally care about. This is vastly preferable to women that love men in general and hate the men that they are personally closest to. Not that I would include you in either group.

So, I am cool with everything.
I think that rape is much more about power than fantasy or lust. How else can you explain "straight" men forcing themselves on weaker "straight" men in prison.

rated
Agreed, LW. Maybe lust in the form of "How dare you deprive me of something I want?", which is more like power.
The statistics are horrifying. Rape is evil, evil is sick, sick is power forced upon another. ~R~
The hypothetical given is both a kidnapping AND a rape....
The sample of respondents isn't adequately described or defined....
That being said the most telling feature of the stats is the numbers that reveal that: "47% of the women said the woman enjoyed being raped (I am shocked by this).............(and) 57% of the women thought she could have stopped it."
There is a strong correlation in these figures....A significant number of the female respondents apparently believe that if she didn't enjoy being raped she could/would have stopped it from occuring.
All one need do is read some of the fantasies posted here by mature and experienced adult women to get the idea that some of the 'shocking' statistics in the study may well be a reflection of some kind of deep-seated female fantasy fulfillment.
I'm not an expert, but there is a great deal to be gleaned in these numbers and a great deal more to be determined from further inquiry and stronger data......This is a good start at opening the discussion.....

Rated
BTW, Water cooler gossip, just as racist jokes or stories, should never be condoned or encouraged remaining silent emboldens the participant....We have an absolute moral duty to speak up and speak out against such behavior....Failure to do so invites being the target or the victim somewhere down the line.....
Fascinating things to think about. I always have a problem with studies, especially those that question people. No matter what their responses there is no definitive way to know what they would actually do in that circumstance. But, even so, their answers were disturbing!
I'm SO sorry, Elena. PM coming your way. XOXO AHC
"Growing up in a dangerous, hostile, materialistic world, and being deprived of the tempering influence of affectionate, effective parenting, sometimes combine, with horrific results." Exactly. And it's only going to get worse.
Being American boys is the most important factor in play in this rape. The American tribal/posse/jock/bully mentality/culture is responsible. Have you ever seen an American boy go to a dance or a party by himself? They always walk and go everywhere in packs. When they harass girls, they are in packs. Not natural hunting packs; they are simply COWARDS. I strongly disagree that social status has anything to do with this rape. Save that, your evolutionary argument is very good.

The study you referenced is a very good choice--similar studies done before and after showed very similar results. While the "47% of the women said the woman enjoyed being raped" number will make smoke come out of most feminists, the most impressive and informative was the "57% of the women thought she could have stopped it" number. Evolution endowed women with special mental strategies/abilities to defend not only themselves, but also their offspring...and their mates.

Thoughtful, intelligent, well informed post. Great argument; I enjoyed this read very much.

Rated.
Thanks, Steve and Thoth. I sort of fired it off on the spur of the moment, so it rambles a bit, but I'm trying to make sense out of it all. . . AHC
As a 56 year old flower child and 40 year vegetarian I'd like to say I took this news peacefully. However the Viking in my little Norse body raged to the surface.

I have studied Celtic and Norse history all of my life. I don't recall ever reading about the inequality of women or of rape that was in any way condoned or tolerated. Two more ethnic/social groups heard from.

There isn't a social reason for these acts other than criminal. To suggest that it can be studied and understood only creates an enabling atmosphere. This is a crime worse than murder. The victim is left alive to be tortured by it for the rest of their life and that inflicts further damage to society in general. Both the participants and the observers are equally guilty.

The only truly rational approach to rape is to declare it what it is and react accordingly. Absolute zero tolerance. Regret and rehabilitation are not a solution to this issue. Firm and absolute intolerance is the only meaningful response.

If a tree does not bear fruit then get rid of the tree.
We see a generation twice removed from reality. One that has a detailed knowledge of violence without the understanding of it's consequences for it's victims. So many people see the vicious assaults portrayed in film or in games that the sense of horror at these acts escapes them. They don't see a fellow human being in danger, they see an image that to them is like a picture on a screen in an imaginary place where pain and human suffering are written off as entertainment. My mind is unable to understand how any person could watch those things happen and not intervene. I would risk any danger to help a person that was being brutalized in this way or for that matter any other way. How to make these kids see that just watching someone being brutally beaten and gang raped is something that should shame them for the rest of their lives I wish I knew. Rape dehumanizes it's victims. They are reduced to being the target for others to feel power over another life. It isn't about sex. How can anyone find pleasure this way?
I do have knowledge on this subject.

http://open.salon.com/blog/bobbot/2009/05/29/rape_survivor
That was tough to read, Bob. Thanks for your courage in posting it.

I'm still trying to figure out how kids grow up incapable of empathy. I'm convinced that linking sadism and sexual excitement and calling it entertainment are part of the picture. That and hopelessness, loveless upbringing, materialism, being raised by TV and video games. But that's all been said. My attempt to understand rape is certainly not an attempt to excuse it, W. I think you can understand that.

I wonder if your rapist is/was gay, or is just inflamed by cruelty toward anyone? I think that's more the case, in prison rapes, for instance. Mind boggling.

And I wonder if the teens in the Richmond incident had spent time in prison and been victimized themselves. Like torture and terrorism, cruelty begets more cruelty.

I'm so proud of you, Bob, for surviving this with your compassion intact. That's the kind of thing that gives me hope for us as a species. XOXO AHC
I think a read of this blog post and its comments might broaden your sense of how boys can go so wrong:

http://open.salon.com/blog/moveovermommy/2009/10/29/not_just_another_day_in_richmond
I somehow find those last stats very suspect...who the hell did they quiz...a group of convicted felons?
The truth as to why this stuff happens is because it always has and always will. In the U.S. these things are shocking...in the Middle East it is a part of everyday life and stats like those you quote are in line.
I thought your exploration of where these impulses come from was persuasive. Venturing into the topic of the evolutionarily hardwired sexual impulses is the work of a brave woman. People will sometimes respond as if you were in favor of rape for even considering where the urge comes from. I happen to think you are on the right track. I've been a feminist since high school, but I've never believed that rape happens because of male hatred and desire to hurt women. I reject the article of faith that rape has nothing to do with sex and is just a form of violence. It is sex. Very horrible sex.

Check out Elaine Morgan's "The Descent of Woman." I love this book, although I don't think all her conclusions hold up. She posits some very similar origins of the rape impulse, and examines how the need to breed clashes with the species's own rules about breeding, and with the hardwired inhibition against violence.

Excellent post. The post that Suzanne linked to is also excellent, but does not contradict anything in this post. Your analysis is as broad as it's possible to be in a post, from the biological to the familial to the social.