AmyTuteurMD

AmyTuteurMD
Bio
Dr. Amy Tuteur is an obstetrician-gynecologist. She received her undergraduate degree from Harvard College and her medical degree from Boston University School of Medicine. Dr. Tuteur is a former clinical instructor at Harvard Medical School.

Editor’s Pick
JANUARY 30, 2009 10:04AM

Who helped a mother of six conceive octuplets?

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 The birth of a living healthy set of octuplets in California this week raised a host of weighty ethical issues. Was it irresponsible to attempt to bring 8 babies to term when the option of selective reduction was available? Why was an octuplet pregnancy allowed to occur in the first place? When it became clear that an excessive number of follicles had developed, why did the fertility specialist continue the cycle knowing that disaster was likely to occur?

Now, amazingly enough, we learn that those were not even the biggest ethical issues involved. The babies’ grandmother revealed yesterday that the octuplets mother is young, apparently single, lives at home with her parents and … already had 6 children!

This raises the very disturbing possibility that octuplets were conceived deliberately for the attention and money that could be expected. In an age of Jon and Kate plus 8 (the hit television show about a family with twins and sextuplets), and the new show about the Duggars  (the family of 18 biological children) premiering soon, it is entirely possible that this woman set out to conceive a set of higher order multiples for the fame and fortune she imagined it might bring.

If so, she would not be the first. The Frustaci septuplets were born in May 1985 after treatment with fertility medication. The doctor alleged that Patti Frustaci took the medication, but then refused to have the recommended ultrasound evaluations that would have revealed that too many follicles were developing, because she wanted to have multiples. Frustaci had intercourse, became pregnant with septuplets and refused reduction. The outcome was tragic, 4 babies died within weeks, and the other 3 have multiple serious medical issues.

How did the octuplet disaster occur? We don’t yet know, but it is difficult to imagine that any infertility specialist would knowingly treat a young woman with 6 children for infertility. In fact, it is difficult to imagine that a young woman with 6 children could be diagnosed with an infertility problem, unless the other children were conceived with fertility treatments.

It seems very unlikely that the octuplet pregnancy resulted from in vitro fertilization. Regardless of the number of fertilized eggs produced, doctors exercise tight control over how many embryos are returned to the uterus. In the early years of in vitro, three to four embryos might be placed in the uterus, but that has changed in light of the many triplet and quadruplet pregnancies that ended in disaster (and lawsuits). Now most clinics will place only two embryos in the uterus at any one time, and save the others to use in a future cycle. In fact, some clinics recommended placing only one fertilized egg at a time.

In light of the medico-legal issues, let alone the ethical issues, it is difficult to imagine that any doctor would take the extremely risky step of returning 8 fertilized eggs at one time to the uterus. That means that the pregnancy was likely the result of powerful infertility medications like Pergonal. Pergonal stimulated the ovaries to produce more eggs in any given cycle. For women who typically don’t produce any eggs at all, Pergonal can coax the ovaries to produce one of two eggs. The possibility exists that more eggs could be produced in a cycle, so each cycle is monitored carefully with daily ultrasounds to make sure that there are not too many follicles developing. If the number of follicles is dangerously high, the doctor will not use medications to trigger ovulation, and will not perform artificial insemination during the cycle.

Not everyone needs the triggering medication or insemination in addition to the Pergonal. Once a safe number of follicles have been identified, some women can get pregnant spontaneously the old fashioned way. Once again, it is difficult to imagine that any doctor would advise a woman to proceed with a cycle that had produced 8 follicles. Such a woman would be instructed to refrain from intercourse until days after the eggs were released so that there would be no possibility of a higher order multiple pregnancy occurring.

That suggests that the mother is in some way responsible for the octuplet pregnancy, either by refusing to follow medical advice or by treating herself with fertility medications without the aid of a doctor. The Kaiser clinic where the mother received her pregnancy care has already announced that they were not responsible in any way for this pregnancy. The mother came to them at 12 weeks, and they diagnosed a septuplet pregnancy (when there are so many babies, it is difficult to count accurately). In addition, while they strongly counseled her to reduce the number of babies, the mother refused.

I want to emphasize that these thoughts are pure speculation, but an octuplet pregnancy is inconsistent with responsible infertility care. In the current medico-legal environment, where infertility specialists can be held responsible for medical expenses associated with a higher order multiple pregnancy, it is difficult to imagine that any doctor would take the risk.

Something does not add up here. A young, presumably unmarried woman, living at home with her parents, who already has 6 children is exceedingly unlikely to be diagnosed with infertility, is unlikely to be treated for infertility even if she is having difficulty getting pregnant, could not have had 8 embryos placed in her uterus by in-vitro fertilization and would almost certainly be counseled to avoid intercourse in any cycle where 8 follicles were developing. Add to that the fact that the woman showed up for care already pregnant with octuplets and suspicions are raised that this pregnancy was conceived in a deliberate effort to have a spectacular outcome, including any publicity and money it might generate.

 

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My question is, "Why?" Six isn't enough? Four more than enough, actually?
This makes my blood boil. I live not too far from the Kaiser hospital where these poor babies were born. I have heard through the "grapevine" that is woman is on welfare. I have nothing to back that up, but it's been suggested by several legitimate sources.

With twins being "all the rage" in celebrity circles (Angelina Jolie, Julia Roberts, Jennifer Lopez, Ricky Martin, Lisa Marie Presley, Geena Davis, Marcia Cross, Nancy Grace - to name just a handful) I think more and more people feel like they have the right to "put in an order" for a multiple pregnancy. They just have no clue as to how exponentially the danger of your pregnancy rises with each additional baby.

Octuplets are the result of highly inappropriate fertility care. Or, maybe a case of DIY treatments - Clomid and Pergonal are available, without a prescription, online. You can buy 10 ampules in 75 iu dosages for 380.00!
I heard on a news report that this mother already has a set of twins among the six (SIX) children at home.
Not only that, but the father of these fourteen , or at least of the eight new ones, is a Nigerian national who was arrested in September on DOMESTIC ABUSE charges and has to go to court next month and could possibly spend a year in jail.
WHERE DID THEY GET THE FERTILITY DRUG? Someone ELSE is involved in this .
Fertility drugs available online without prescription? Outrageous.
i did a simple search; cnn reports that the mother is indeed married, and that her husband is a contract worker possibly headed soon to iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/30/mother.octuplets/

while i'm personally squicked by this, i still think it's legal to have as many children as you want / can, even if it bothers other people. and whether it's fashion or not, it's clearly doable, survivable. it even looks kinda fun, on tv.

perhaps the parents wanted to have a larger family but not so many pregnancies. perhaps they thought this way they could get medical/financial/logistical assistance that they wouldn't get any other way.

and they all thought it was 7 babies. perhaps they didn't think it thru, having such a large set of multiples, but know that they don't believe in reducing pregnancies.

perhaps the fertility doctors didn't properly / fully warn them that implanting 8 is too many.
perhaps this was their last treatment and they didn't have more money and didn't want to waste their embryos.

perhaps.
eridanis:

"i did a simple search; cnn reports that the mother is indeed married, and that her husband is a contract worker possibly headed soon to iraq."

Other news outlets reported that it is the grandfather who is the contract worker headed back to Iraq. I guess we'll have to wait to find out the truth.
I find the whole thing appalling, frightening, disturbing and in no way cute. The way the media is covering it as if it were this wonderful miracle is irresponsible to say the least. The kids: the 6 and now the 8 (premies) will all suffer because of the hubris of this mother and whoever enabled her. To me, it has the makings of a horrible tragedy, that of course the media won't cover once the hoopla has died down. Who is paying their medical bills? Unless she's very wealthy, I assume it will be the taxpayers. Who will feed these kids? (will they all get breast milk or only a few?) Will all 14 get to go to college? Will they each have a chance to sit on their mother's lap and tell her their individual tales of woe when they're going through puberty? And who else will take it upon themselves to copy this, to get the publicity and naive affection from a clueless, thoughtless public?
Here's the latest update from CBS News:

"CBS News has learned that the family of the octuplets born this week outside Los Angeles filed for bankruptcy and abandoned a home a little over a year-and-a-half ago.

Early Show national correspondent Hattie Kauffman says the mother is in her mid-thirties and lives with her parents.

There's been no mention of the octuplets' father, Kauffman observes.

The grandfather, she adds, is apparently going to head back to his native Iraq to earn money for the growing family. He told CBS News he's a former Iraqi military man."

On the issue of how this happened:

"On The Early Show Friday, Michael Tucker, scientific director of Georgia Reproductive Specialists, says all these developments leave him "stunned. As the story's unfolded and it's gone from the potential use of just fertility drugs, or misuse thereof, to actual, apparently, IVF (in-vitro fertilization) with transfer of embryos, this is just remarkable to me that any practitioner in our field of reproductive medicine would undertake such a practice."

Tucker, who has a doctorate in reproductive physiology, says it's "absolutely" possible the octuplets' mother got pregnant with them by taking fertility drugs on her own without the help of a clinic, "and that seemed the most plausible scenario, simply because the profession, we're policed by the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, has focused so minutely on the fact that we need to reduce the number of embryos that we transfer. We really are all about seeking the one, the one embryo that's going to make the healthy, single-born baby."
She also (reportedly) declared bankruptcy recently. So, the money aspect takes on even greater significance.
I find it distasteful to speculate on the motives of a woman one does not know particularly when some of those comments derive from the woman's marital status or lack of income. It is just wrong to make those judgments.
Wouldn't the fact that she already had SIX come out during the interviews and exams prior to the proceddures? Did she lie about prior pregnancies in order to get the treatment?

This is disgusting and you are spot on Amy, this DOES raise so many questions. I mean WTF, she's living with her parents, unmarried, young and has 14 kids! I'm not supportive of mandatory "spaying", but in this case, it sounds good at this point.
Dorinda Fox: I see your point, but her being unmarried or still living at home doesn't excuse the fact that what she did was questionable at best and selfish at worst.
We don't know why she lives at home. Perhaps her house was foreclosed upon and she lives with her grandmother. Perhaps her husband was called to Iraq and she lives with family for assistance. Perhaps it is none of our damn business to speculate she had these children to get a reality show and to exclaim that we as taxpayers don't want to support her kids. Perhaps she is part of medical study yet to be publicized? They used to "spay" people in this country -- retarded individuals, black women, poor women.

We don't know and I for one find such judgmental comments and statements particularly distasteful.
"We don't know why she lives at home. Perhaps her house was foreclosed upon and she lives with her grandmother. Perhaps her husband was called to Iraq and she lives with family for assistance. Perhaps it is none of our damn business to speculate she had these children to get a reality show and to exclaim that we as taxpayers don't want to support her kids. Perhaps she is part of medical study yet to be publicized? They used to "spay" people in this country -- retarded individuals, black women, poor women.

We don't know and I for one find such judgmental comments and statements particularly distasteful."

And I, for one, think that political correctness has it's limits.

Having octuplets when you already have 6 YOUNG children at home (which happens to not even be HER home, but her mother's), you're bankrupt, and apparently single, is reckless, I don't care how you slice it. Sure it's her "right" to have as many kids as she wants, but it's also my "right" to get shit-faced drunk while I'm pregnant...doesn't mean it's a good idea. And I would expect harsh judgement for it.

Can you even begin to imagine the cost and time to raise all those children? It is highly improbable that all of their needs are met, especially emotionally, when mom and grandma are streched so thin. And especially in this economy, welfare is not even going to begin to cover all the basic needs these kids will need, so the family will more than likely have to rely on handouts from charities, churches, etc.

So, my distaste and judgement regarding the situation all has to do with what kind of lives these kids will end up having. As someone who grew up "poor" and on welfare, with parents who couldn't even handle 4 kids, I feel like crying for these children.

(There is always the possibility, of course, that she will somehow be "supermom" and be able to provide for all of their needs, and they will all be happy and well-cared for. I just don't see it being all that likely...call me a cynic)
Dorinda Fox: I do question this woman's motives. I also question the Dr's judgment as well. As far as my "spaying" comment, I'm well aware of what this country "used to do" Like I stated before, the idea of forced sterilization is digusting. But I find this woman's action just as disturbing.



But should this have happened in the first place?
Poogles0213:

My thoughts in a nut shell! Bravo!
Why don't we just stone her?!?

God damn it. It annoys me I'm posting here.

But I'm going to second Dorinda on this. This isn't anyone's business.

Of course these issues (and the issues are different from the person) are something for bioethicists to discuss (which no one here is, including Amy), but speculation, most if it unconfirmed gossip, all about the woman's marital status, other children, potential living situation, etc. is NOT and should NOT be part of that discussion.

A grown-up discussion might be something like "With the advances of science, do we limit the number of embryos planted, etc." It should not be about these other issues. The unmarried part was especially interesting. Really? Poor? Really? Gosh! Let's make sure they're the right color, too! Oh wait! They're not white! Let's discuss!!

I'm thrilled that you guys are having fun hanging over the fences and gossiping mightily about a person you don't know and about information irresponsibly derived from "the neighbor" (thus far, CBS's source--lord how the media hath fallen) and feeling superior and all, but if you REALLY feel that way, how about putting together a fund of money and/or other things for this family? If she's poor, how about help instead of disdain? Really? You won't be giving money? What.a.shock.

Seriously, debating the question of bioethics, sure! Debating it based on someone's personal life or circumstances, er, no.
While I agree that engaging in salacious rumor mongering isn't the appropriate way to discuss this story, I take exception to the idea that only bioethicists should be involved in formulating intelligent opinions on this situation and, by extension, others like it. I think we as a society have the obligation to discuss the implications of both this woman's actions and the actions of her providers. We possess the technology to assist in infertility - how should this technology be used? Are there hard and fast rules or regulations on this process, or should there be? More concretely, what are the risks of this multiple birth, both for the children and the mother?

I agree that the media has (as usual) done a poor job articulating anything beyond "Look at this!" (Or, as I heard on NPR, "Marvel at 46 Health Care Professionals Pulling this Off with Nary A Question about Risk")

And I hope that whenever this woman emerges and if she decides to talk to the media, that she will answer "Why did you do this?" That ought to provoke some interesting discussions, too.
odetteroulette:

I don't care what color the woman is. I do not agree with her choice, but accept and respect her right to make it. I don't think anyone is having "fun", I'm not. Perhaps I'm guilty of a little envy, I'll just OWN IT right now. Reading thsi post made me pissed, I'll admit it.

In the end I wish this woman and her family happiness.
I do want to comment about why someone might want to conceive multiples. When you're going through infertility, the idea of having a multiple pregnancy is really tempting. You won't have to go through the expense and heartache of infertility treatment again in a couple years to try for a second child, and potentially fail to get pregnant at all. Rather than reflecting a sense of entitlement as Jacqueline Meyers suggests, the desire for multiples is a reflection of the awareness that pregnancy is very difficult to achieve. It's pretty normal to want to maximize the number of children from each hard-won pregnancy.

My twins were conceived in an IUI cycle using a Pergonal-type medicine. We took the risk of potentially conceiving six, although the odds of doing so were VERY low (like, 1/100,000), because the overwhelming likelihood was that I wouldn't get pregnant at all, or would have just one baby if I did. Had we canceled the cycle for ovarian overstimulation, the thousands of dollars we'd already spent in drugs and monitoring would have been completely wasted. We think I lost a triplet shortly after implantation, and while I wasn't sorry not to have triplets, I was hopeful about the prospect of twins. I knew the risks in advance, and it was a scary pregnancy, but they were born healthy in the end, and now I'm very glad to have them.
Critical:

"We possess the technology to assist in infertility - how should this technology be used? Are there hard and fast rules or regulations on this process, or should there be? More concretely, what are the risks of this multiple birth, both for the children and the mother?"

YES! The problem is how do we find answers to these to make "everyone" happy? In short, we cannot. That's where it gets hairy!
I have an ironclad alibi. Twasn't me.
Dorinda Fox:

"I find it distasteful to speculate on the motives of a woman one does not know particularly when some of those comments derive from the woman's marital status or lack of income."

I can see your point about the tastefulness of speculating before we have complete information, but I would respectfully disagree with your comment about marital status or lack of income.

Anyone who cares about the wellbeing of children MUST take into account the marital status and lack of income of the mother. Simply put, it is grossly and unforgivably irresponsible for a woman who already has 6 children to take infertility medication to have more.

I know that this woman claims she had IVF, but she also insisted that she was going to breastfeed all 8 babies, which is clearly impossible and any woman who has had children knows that. There is a big disconnect here between this woman's desires and reality, and that poses serious problems for those children.
I hate, hate, hate stories like this, because I wonder how typical they are. My 2 year-old son is an IVF baby; out of the couples in the infertility support group my wife and I attended who got pregnant, I believe all of them had single births as well. But, I also know that is hardly a scientific sample.

It seems clear from the post and comments that the facts in this case are like shifting sand and the real story has yet to emerge. My own layman's opinion is that assuming this pregnancy happened with the assistance of a doctor or clinic, then said doctor or clinic should feel the full weight of appropriate professional and (if applicable) legal sanctions. Having gone through the full gamut of infertility treatments with my wife, from the relatively mild Clomid regime to potent hormone injections of Gonal-F and the like, and knowing how we were screened first by our OB and then a reproductive endocrinologist, I find it utterly mind-boggling that a woman who had delivered 6 children in 5 pregnancies would be considered a candidate for such aggressive treatment.

Even if she lied, wouldn't a baseline exam have told her doctors that she'd had children, even if they couldn't tell how many?

And if she received fertility meds online without a prescription, then she needs to be punished.
odetteroulette:

Seriously? No one wants to stone her. Don't be ridiculous. I also agree it is her "right" to have the children. Again, just because it is a "right" doesn't mean it's a good decision, or that no one should be allowed to say anything about it.

"Of course these issues are something for bioethicists to discuss , but speculation, most if it unconfirmed gossip, all about the woman's marital status, other children, potential living situation, etc. is NOT and should NOT be part of that discussion."

I think you're conflating two discussions here...one is the bioethics problem, and one is the implications of this woman's actions on her children's lives, and on society in general (not that I'm saying a single family is a huge burden on society). They're separate discussions. And both are worthy of being discussed.

"Anyone who cares about the wellbeing of children MUST take into account the marital status and lack of income of the mother. Simply put, it is grossly and unforgivably irresponsible for a woman who already has 6 children to take infertility medication to have more."

And I 100% agree with what Amy says, here. Saying we should just keep our mouths shut, turn our heads and walk away, sounds a little to me like the people who say it's none of their business when they see a parent smack their child to the ground. I don't agree in either case.

If you don't like it and disagree, don't participate. Walk away without reading or responding, since, after all, it's not your "business."
We have every right to question the ethics of this situation because the welfare of children is everyone's concern. Not to mention overpopulation. Also, if tax dollars are going to support these babies, we have the right to be concerned. There may be a right of women to have as many babies as she chooses, but there is no right that shouldn't carry a corresponding responsibility. And someone was irresponsible in this.
Why can't we edit comments?

This should have been:
"There may be a "right" for a woman to have as many babies as she chooses, but there is no right that shouldn't carry a corresponding responsibility."
Several news outlets are reporting that the mother is Nadya Suleman Gutierrez, and that she works in an infertility clinic. That could explain access to infertility drugs without being treated for infertility. It is impossible to believe that any infertility specialist implanted 8 embryos in anyone, let alone a mother of 6.
I thought for sure someone would take the writer's phrase "This raises the very disturbing possibility that octuplets were conceived by (sic) deliberately for the attention and money that could be expected." and make some wisecrack like the last few days and say "What next? OS bloggers taking the same approach to writing?"
Glad that didn'thappen.
I am the last person who wants to see the government get involved and anything, much less family issues.

With that said, it's time for CPS to show up and figure out what is going on. If need be, to remove all 14 of the kids.
Let me know when all polygamists, many of whom have families with as many as 40 children on welfare, get rounded up and prosecuted, and I will consider picking up a pitchfork against this women.

I'm not worried though. It will be a long wait.
I'm glad you wrote this post. There are many ethical questions raised, and it's good (for me, anyway) to see some debate in the commnets. I get torn between wanting to defend individual rights and being profoundly disturbed by the psychopathy that seems to exist in this particular case.

But mostly, on a personal level, these tales of multiple births, of women having litters of babies, have always been defended (by the families or the women themselves) because they did not believe in abortion - that they feel abortion is killing babies - and therefore they could not choose to surgically reduce the number of fetuses. As someone who is vehemently pro-choice, it just made (and makes) me furious - because what the hell kind of double standard is that? "I can use any medical proceedure necessary, including IVF, to allow myself to get pregnant, but I'm against YOUR right to make a choice about the fetus in YOUR womb."

Pisses me off. And to those who, using fertility drugs, say it's "God's will" that eight fetuses were conceived, I say it was God's will that made you infertile in the first place.
Dorinda...when we have to support all of these kids through taxes we have EVERY RIGHT to judge this woman's actions AND those of anyone who helped her. What if we all acted in such an irresponsible manner? Would there be anyone left with any sense of responsibility to take care of us?
This is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!
I rarely comment on any blog and very rarely more than once.

So here is my only third comment. It is likely not worth much and evidence I am up too late.

I am not the world's greatest Christian, but do remember that judging others, particularly with flimsy evidence, is discouraged.

That's it. I'm gone now.
Poogles--::shrugging:: Continue to enjoy being nasty about others. Evidently, you're good at it.

I'm not conflating anything by the way. I separated them. Bioethics is one thing. Judging someone's life is another. You want to discuss bioethics, feel free. You want to judge someone else's life. Take a second to look at your own first and make sure it's perfect before you continue.

Oh, and don't tell me what to do anymore. Thanks. I don't need a mommy.

Amy, Jesus, they all picked up the story from the same source. You should at least wait until things are confirmed before meeting out 'justice' and opinions. But, it's luck, right? You'll get hits! Nothing matters more!
In an already overpopulated world, six children is irresponsible, tho' I have nothing but respect for couples who ADOPT multiple children because they want a large family and have the financial and emotional resources to do so.

For a woman who already has 6 children to have access to fertility drugs is ridiculous. And I would have to agree with your suspicions that this was an irresponsible ploy to garner publicity and possibly wealth.

My worst fear is that these 14 children will suffer emotional neglect - not even Wonder Women has the ability to give personal attention to 14 people at a time.
Without a doubt someone has been reckless, and not had regard for the health of the mother or the babes. Either a doctor was irresponsible, or the mother took it upon herself to self medicate or have unprotected sex with too many follicles present. Both scenarios are disasters. Human bodies are not intended to carry litters, and preemie infants can face long term problems.

As the mother of triplets, I know my IVF result is considered a failure by the system. I was fortunate to deliver big healthy infants, but I fully ackowledge that the outcome could have been disasterous. Multiples are not the desired result.

I have no problem stating that a single mom living with her parents has no business undergoing fertility treatment with 6 kids at home. What could be the motive? I will not be surprised at all to find out that this is an attention seeking ploy. Didn't Jon and Kate just get a $1 million + home?
The fertility clinic I donated my eggs to told me that they only implant 2 embryos max for IVF. However, at the fertility clinic here in Raleigh, they let you choose how many embryos you implant. A friend of mine had to go through IVF there at the age of 30, and they told her she could choose how many embryos. At this same clinic (I know this because I had to have blood drawn there a couple of times at the beginning of the egg donor cycle), they have a huge billboard displaying all of their babies. They have grouped the babies into singletons, twins, triplets and quads (obviously proud of their multiples rate). I guess that's what the parents are paying for, right? Babies? I suppose if I were infertile I could see the appeal. But given the rate of prematurity, complications and disabilities with higher order multiples, personally, I would have no problem reducing.
I wanted to add:

She showed up wanting to do 3, but dropped it down to 2 after the doctor told her that with her frame (around 5'5 and 100 pounds) that she would have problems carrying a triplet pregnancy. She was told that if she didn't conceive with 2 this first round of IVF, that they would put in 3 the next time. She did conceive, and is now going for her second baby. They've agreed to put in 3 if 3 embryos thaw. Of course she's a little heavier how (like 10 pounds heavier), but she's still under 35. While it's not what I would choose to do, she is hoping for twins (so she won't have to go through IVF two more times- they want 4), so I can see her line of thinking I guess.
All the political correctness about "not judging"....how about DISCERNMENT?

I don't think that discussing the many facts and reported "facts" are
indicative of meanness or malice or feelings of superiority or any of the other listed or suggested motives for considering this story...look guys
(continued)
look guys, this is on ALL of the local AND national news programs, this is on radio, t.v. and all of the blogs from what I've heard...EVERYONE, not just in California,is talking about and discussing this story...why shouldn't we?

I am tired of the pious, above it all, attitudes from people who question an OB/GYN for posting this...who better ?

Anyone who pretends they have not thought about this story , or talked about it or wondered about what was the thinking behind a mother of SIX trying to have ONE more, much less multiples, is a phony!
The likelihood of eight healthy babies is very small - it's much more likely that some of them would die and others end up injured in serious ways - blind, profoundly retarded, cerebral palsy. If a mom lines her kids up at a firing range and shoots a gun at them, is it okay if she turns out to be a bad shot? Because that's essentially what it appears this woman did. She played Russian Roulette with these kids.

I'm going to reserve final judgment until we learn exactly what happened, but at this point it appears she was irresponsible.
Allie Griffith:

"at this point it appears she was irresponsible."

Somebody was very irresponsible. She is insisting that it was a doctor, but I find that extremely hard to believe unless her doctor is the medical equivalent of Rod Blagojevich.

The entire story if filled with claims that stretch credulity. How would perform IVF on a patient every year (the previous 6 children? At almost $20,000 per procedure, who could afford IVF every year? Who would implant 8 embryos at one time? Why does the California Department of Public Health have no record of anyone performing an IVF procedure with 8 embryos?

A far better and far more believable explanation is that she took fertility drugs without telling anyone, in an effort to conceive multiples.
Aim, that is SO insulting to thouse of us who've undergone infertility treatment. What platitude are you going to recite next, how there are lots of kids who need good homes, and we should just adopt? It's a whoooole lot more complicated than that. But hey, thanks for telling me I'm a selfish God-defying heathen!

That argument is essentially the same one made by the fringe religious groups who don't take medicine because it's God's will that we be ill or healed. Somehow I suspect you're not a Christian Scientist, though. Care to explain how infertility is different from any other disabling disease in being God's Will?
On second thought, Aim, that came out a little harsher than I meant. That is a very sore spot for anyone who's been there.

However, I stand by the fundamentals of the argument I made, that infertility is a disease no different from any other and no less deserving of treatment.
Per Dorinda Fox: "I find it distasteful to speculate on the motives of a woman one does not know particularly when some of those comments derive from the woman's marital status or lack of income. It is just wrong to make those judgments."

I agree with Dorinda. I read this post in order to see if any real information was provided in the last 24 hours, and apparently the media can't get the facts right yet.

While I'm upset that any woman would crank out that many babies, for any reason, there's vastly too much speculation going on here. There's way too much "what if" analysis and judgmental commentary going on here.

I prefer to wait until more facts are in. Otherwise, in general, I agree that mismanagement of new technologies will be causing more problems, such as over fertilization and excessive child bearing.
Um, I said it to those who take fertility drugs AND CONCEIVE/IMPLANT EIGHT EMBRYOS. But I kind of knew it was going to sound awful as soon as I pressed submit. I thought of immediately explaining that I don't think this at all about women pursuing fertility options. At all. I support every womans - every persons - right to pursue every means to have a child. So, I really apologize for sounding harsh. I have watched some of my friends struggle with fertility issues - most have been lucky to conceive, with help. Some have not been so lucky, including having to decide whether to parent a child with Down's Syndrome. And, sure, I have a few more friends with twins than might be statistically average. I celebrate two turkey baster babies, and know the donors as well.
I want nothing more than to see people who want children to have children.

I am criticizing a select group who refuse selective reduction and, against medical advice, insist on carrying litters of babies to term, because they don't believe in abortion. They don't believe in abortion, they will vote and elect officials based on this belief, they will deny me , if possible, my right to make MY OWN choice about MY fertility - and yet I have to sit by and hear them say (as the woman in questions mother said) "What, do you expect us to kill babies?"
And, often, these women and their families will say it was God's will that they gave birth to their sick litter, and to them I say - TO THEM - no, it was God's will that you were infertile.

So, I'm sorry if I offended anyone who is seeking, undergoing, remembering fertility treatments. I don't think God made you infertile, or less than fertile. But you're not manipulating the system for your own gain, against the advice of medical professionals and against the health of all of the embryos.
And if any of you are pro-life, well, I'm happy for you, but I'll certainly argue that fetus manipulation should be a two way street.
I'm just coming to this whole discussion from a very different perspective, but I think it's important to remember how choices about fertility are not limited just to reproduction.
And your choices can affect mine.
(OK - I'm stepping off the soap box, and politely asking for everyone's forgiveness who I might have offended in the first place.)
Dorinda Fox:

"but do remember that judging others, particularly with flimsy evidence, is discouraged."

The main point of my post is not about "judging" others, it is about the fact that this woman's story makes no sense.

Unless she has some sort of mad-scientist infertility doctor, it is virtually impossible to believe that anyone would treat her for infertility, that she could afford the procedures, or that anyone would implant 8 embryos at once. The fact that she is unmarried and in financial difficulty makes the story that she tells even more unbelievable.

We don't yet know what happened, but a fews vials of Pergonal, self-administered, would account for the whole situation, without involving anyone else, and for only several hundred dollars, as opposed to the $120,000 for 6 IVF procedures.
Thank you for providing some valuable insight. I question any doctor who would knowingly prescribe a drug that would help this woman have 8 babies. Taxpayers end up supporting all these extra children. I wish we would go back to the "two is enough" norm of the 70s.
Here is new article that may shed some light on some things:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets
Also, if she works in an infertility clinic, she probably didn't even have to shell out for the drugs. She probably just swiped it from the samples closet, which I know from personal experience contains Gonal-F and Follistim "pens" (Pergonal isn't really used any more) and vials of medication. The drug reps pr0vide the clinics with a good deal of samples, which they generally give out to patients who need a tiny bit more medication than anticipated. Since the drugs have to be mail-ordered from specialty pharmacies, it's a big help for patients, but yeah, the potential for abuse is there.
I don't care what color this woman is or how much money she has.
If she were a super wealthy white woman I'd still think it highly
irresponsible to have so many babies. This planet has a limited
amount of resources. And it's insane for the media to act as if
it's a cute and/or remarkable thing.
The cost could be explained if she'd sold eggs as well. But still, it doesn't add up. You still need to explain the unethical RE who transferred 8 embryos. Could that be done in Mexico? (No insult to Mexican medicine intended, only that it's close to SoCal, and I've heard ART is cheaper there.)

My bet is still on the grandmother being wrong, and the woman doing deliberate overstimulation.
According to the TimesOnline (but not yet confirmed by other new outlets):

"The single mother of octuplets born in California last week is seeking $2m from media interviews and commercial sponsorship to help pay the cost of raising the children...

Although still confined to an LA hospital bed, she intends to talk to two influential television hosts this week - media mogul Oprah Winfrey, and Diane Sawyer, who presents Good Morning America.

Her family has told agents she needs cash from deals such as [diaper] sponsorship - she will get through 250 [diapers] a week over the next few months - and the agents will gauge public reaction to her story. A veteran from the ICM agency said: “If she wins over Oprah or Diane Sawyer, she will have the world at her feet.”

Her earning power, though, could be diminished by a growing ethical and medical controversy. Experts believe that the unnamed fertility specialists who gave her in vitro fertilisation (IVF), should not have implanted so many embryos, and in choosing to carry all eight to term, Suleman ignored guidelines, risking both their health and her own."
This may sound harsh but she needs her head checked.
I read the Gosselin's book awhile back and wondered why a doctor would have ever put her through infertility treatment in the first place... I know she had PCOS, but I'd always thought you'd have to at least *try* for awhile first, and they were doing IUI about a year after they got married. Both of them young, too.

I respect the right of couples to have large families, even very large families, if they want. But I boggle at who would risk octuplets with six kids already. The surviving Morrison sextuplet has cerebral palsy... can you imagine even one child with special needs on top of six more? Much less potentially eight?
I see this story (not the post, the story) and the comments as exhibiting what is likely going to happen in the next months or years as the economy gets worse: there's a woman who has X number of children, and she will be accused of being on welfare, being an immigrant (legal or not), unmarried, and with numerous references made to her previous men, and therefore unfit.

This woman may be unfit, and I've always been on the fence about carrying multiples in the face of overwhelming negative odds, but I've mostly been waiting to see what shakes out from this before making any judgments. But I'm disturbed with what this brings out in people. An extreme case like this, too, is so easy for people to use to "prove" something (like because you pay taxes, you have the right to make judgments about anyone who ever uses any social services, ever. I suppose this means that I can now judge those who use 9-1-1 if they have an accident they should have foreseen. After all, I also contribute to that service, and so, by this logic, if I disagree that someone had a "true" accident, and used the service, well, I have no bought bitching rights.).

In the extreme cases, it seems so easy to say "hey, I pay TAXES, and this woman has 14 kids!" But the number of kids she has is almost beside the point. If she's unfit, she's unfit for other reasons, outside of that.
Well over a decade ago ago I edited a short film called "The Parent's License" . The creator of the film was a firm believer that, if you have to be licensed to drive a car, you should have to have a license to be a parent.
Of course, it's a ridiculous concept. It's our God-given RIGHT to reproduce and do what we will with the new lives over which we now have dominion correct?
Reading this story, I'm not so sure the film was such a draconian idea anymore.
EmmaB: Your comment that "infertility is a disease no different from any other and no less deserving of treatment" is ridiculous. Being infertile does not jeopardize your health or well-being. It does not progress or prevent you from living a normal life. It does not require regular treatment or medicine to survive. It doesn't end lives or severely impair one's ability to live life. To equate infertility to "any other disease" you are saying it's no different than cancer or hemophilia! It doesn't deserve the same attention and immediacy as a disease which causes loss of human life. I'm not saying it doesn't require treatment, if one decides they need to have a baby, and that treatment should be thorough and responsible, but to compare infertility to any other disease is preposterous.
She worked at a fertility clinic. Although it doesn't diminish the ultimate tragedy for these children, at least we no longer have to concern ourselves with the more troubling possibility of malpractice. She dosed herself. She's probably done it before. She is obviously quite emotionally damaged. So, unless we all want to rail against the MD offices whose "sample closets" are unlocked, there's nothing more to be said about the ethical issues here. Perhaps now we can turn our concern to what we might do to assist the 14 victims of her mental illness.
A C:

"Your comment that "infertility is a disease no different from any other and no less deserving of treatment" is ridiculous."

I have to strongly disagree. The most basic definition of a disease is "an alteration in normal body function." One could make a strong argument that THE most important bodily function of all is reproduction. If you can't reproduce and you want to, that's a disease.

Is it as serious as fatal diseases? No, of course not, but the stomach flu isn't likely to be fatal either, and it's still a disease.
Infertility is fully as stressful and unpleasant as a whole variety of physical ailments which we routinely treat. Nobody balks at the idea of treating a torn ACL or damaged knee cartilage, or endometriosis, or hypothyroidism. I've had all of those and infertility, and infertility had by far the largest effect on my daily life.

Your comment also ignores that most cases of infertility are actually part of a disease process, or sequelae of same. Female infertility in particular is largely the result of PCOS, premature ovarian failure, endometriosis, or pelvic inflammatory disease. All are diseases by any stretch of the imagination, all have symptoms other than the inability to have a child, and all are basically non-terminal. We don't know how to cure any of them (except PID, if it's caught early enough), so we treat the symptoms which are troublesome to the patient. Metformin for insulin sensitivity, hormone replacement therapy for the hot flashes and bone loss of premature menopause, drugs and surgery for endometriosis pain... and Clomid and gonadotropins for the infertility.

In my case, I had a pituitary malfunction which caused several hormone disturbances, including my reproductive hormones. The only treatment for that is to provide artificial hormones to treat the symptoms which are bothersome to the patient -- we can't fix the pituitary itself. Hypothyroidsm sucked, so I took thyroid medication; hypogonadism sucked, so I took medicine to make my ovaries work. Why should the former be more deserving of treatment than the latter?
Yes, I understand that often infertility is a symptom or result of another underlying condition or disease, in which case I think obviously the underlying disease needs to be addressed and treated, as with your case. I am not saying it does not deserve attention and treatment, but as its own condition, it is not a disease "like any other." That's my only argument. Infertility is UNlike any other disease out there. After doing a bit more research though, I realize I was getting hung up on the word "disease" and interpreting it as "illness", which I definitely think are two different things. I guess it comes down to semantics (I tend to get fixated on specific words, which ironically is a manifestation of my own "condition" of OCD! Lol! :)
And I didn't mean that for a disease to be considered serious, it has to be terminal. (I'm not sure if it came out that way, but I just want to clarify that. )
As to the topic of discussion, while I respect and understand the woman's decision not to abort any of the fetuses, I can't understand why in the world she was undergoing any kind of fertility treatment or trying to get pregnant when she has 6 children already and apparently cannot take care of the ones she has- at least on a financial level since she filed for bankruptcy and lives with her parents. There is no possible way any one person can adequately care for 14 children- period. One infant is a full-time job. 8 is madness. She needs a full-time staff to help care for them and what about her other 6 children? Not to mention if her father goes to Iraq and her mother has already said she will not be at the house when the daughter returns from the hospital, who is left? Volunteers? When will she have time to screen them? How will she know they even have experience caring for infants? I can't even fathom the diaper-changing and the cost for diapers alone is going to be in the thousands. It's all just ridiculous and the sad thing is there is no reasonable solution. This woman needs psychiatric care.
I've seen a claim in a news article (Yahoo) that "Angela Suleman told reporters that doctors implanted far fewer than eight embryos but they multiplied. Experts said this could be possible since Nadya Suleman's system has likely been hyperstimulated for years with fertilization treatments and drugs."

I'm wondering exactly -how- possible. Any thoughts here?
odetteroulette:

Sorry you thought I was being nasty. Wasn’t trying to be.

“I'm not conflating anything by the way. I separated them. Bioethics is one thing. Judging someone's life is another. You want to discuss bioethics, feel free. You want to judge someone else's life. Take a second to look at your own first and make sure it's perfect before you continue.”

Ok, I’ll take back what I said about you conflating. You simply seem to think one is “okay” to discuss and the other is not…and I disagree. I really don’t like the argument that my life must be perfect before I can look at or judge someone else’s life. By that reasoning we should never judge murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc since NO ONE is perfect, and I highly doubt that you think that is the best course of action. Speaking for myself only, the only “judgement” I have on this woman and her situation is that the children are very likely to suffer for her actions and choices. That she appears to also be having financial difficulties and little to no social support just makes it more likely that the children will suffer, and more likely that they will suffer quite a bit. I don’t care how many children a woman has, or how she has them…until it becomes likely that it is going to have a negative effect on the children themselves. Then I care.

“All the political correctness about "not judging"....how about DISCERNMENT?
I don't think that discussing the many facts and reported "facts" are
indicative of meanness or malice or feelings of superiority or any of the other listed or suggested motives for considering this story...look guys, this is on ALL of the local AND national news programs, this is on radio, t.v. and all of the blogs from what I've heard...EVERYONE, not just in California,is talking about and discussing this story...why shouldn't we?
I am tired of the pious, above it all, attitudes from people who question an OB/GYN for posting this...who better ?”

And I agree with this.

“Oh, and don't tell me what to do anymore. Thanks. I don't need a mommy.”

Wasn’t telling you what to do. Let me phrase it better. It would be more logically consistent for you to stay out of the discussion all together since you believe it is none of our (or your) business. To me, it seems a little…hypocritical, maybe?...to believe we have no right to discuss this woman’s choices and life and then take part in the discussion.
To be clear:
I know the one paragraph I quoted and agreed with was from scaredgrandma, it wasn't quite clear above :-)
Of course we have the right to discuss this! We have the right to discuss anything we wish. If everyone limited their discussion to what was exclusively "their business" we would be virtually mute as a society. No one is probing for personal, private information. This is a news story and if we can't discuss news, what the hell are we supposed to discuss? As far as judgment, that word is completely over-used. We're forming an opinion based on the facts presented. If you want a judgment, here's one: It's people with the mentality that we shouldn't discuss stories like this who are the small-minded hypocrites ruining this country. I could go on, but you get my point.
First off, most children in America are raised by a single parent. Why are we judging Nadya so harshly when single parenting is the experience of most kids in America?

Second, isn't this the land of liberty? Why is a woman not have the freedom to bear lots of children if they love and want them?

Third, are all of us parents absolutely sure of how we'll pay all of our children's expenses when we get pregnant? Probably not. Parenthood is a leap of faith--financially, emotionally, and otherwise.

I'm certain that Nadya will find a way to create a loving environment for her children and provide them what they need--and building a community of supporters sounds like the wisest way to do so. I'm not so quick to judge this woman.

Taz/Parenting blogger
http://laboroflove.typepad.com/