
The birth of a living healthy set of octuplets in California this week raised a host of weighty ethical issues. Was it irresponsible to attempt to bring 8 babies to term when the option of selective reduction was available? Why was an octuplet pregnancy allowed to occur in the first place? When it became clear that an excessive number of follicles had developed, why did the fertility specialist continue the cycle knowing that disaster was likely to occur?
Now, amazingly enough, we learn that those were not even the biggest ethical issues involved. The babies’ grandmother revealed yesterday that the octuplets mother is young, apparently single, lives at home with her parents and … already had 6 children!
This raises the very disturbing possibility that octuplets were conceived deliberately for the attention and money that could be expected. In an age of Jon and Kate plus 8 (the hit television show about a family with twins and sextuplets), and the new show about the Duggars (the family of 18 biological children) premiering soon, it is entirely possible that this woman set out to conceive a set of higher order multiples for the fame and fortune she imagined it might bring.
If so, she would not be the first. The Frustaci septuplets were born in May 1985 after treatment with fertility medication. The doctor alleged that Patti Frustaci took the medication, but then refused to have the recommended ultrasound evaluations that would have revealed that too many follicles were developing, because she wanted to have multiples. Frustaci had intercourse, became pregnant with septuplets and refused reduction. The outcome was tragic, 4 babies died within weeks, and the other 3 have multiple serious medical issues.
How did the octuplet disaster occur? We don’t yet know, but it is difficult to imagine that any infertility specialist would knowingly treat a young woman with 6 children for infertility. In fact, it is difficult to imagine that a young woman with 6 children could be diagnosed with an infertility problem, unless the other children were conceived with fertility treatments.
It seems very unlikely that the octuplet pregnancy resulted from in vitro fertilization. Regardless of the number of fertilized eggs produced, doctors exercise tight control over how many embryos are returned to the uterus. In the early years of in vitro, three to four embryos might be placed in the uterus, but that has changed in light of the many triplet and quadruplet pregnancies that ended in disaster (and lawsuits). Now most clinics will place only two embryos in the uterus at any one time, and save the others to use in a future cycle. In fact, some clinics recommended placing only one fertilized egg at a time.
In light of the medico-legal issues, let alone the ethical issues, it is difficult to imagine that any doctor would take the extremely risky step of returning 8 fertilized eggs at one time to the uterus. That means that the pregnancy was likely the result of powerful infertility medications like Pergonal. Pergonal stimulated the ovaries to produce more eggs in any given cycle. For women who typically don’t produce any eggs at all, Pergonal can coax the ovaries to produce one of two eggs. The possibility exists that more eggs could be produced in a cycle, so each cycle is monitored carefully with daily ultrasounds to make sure that there are not too many follicles developing. If the number of follicles is dangerously high, the doctor will not use medications to trigger ovulation, and will not perform artificial insemination during the cycle.
Not everyone needs the triggering medication or insemination in addition to the Pergonal. Once a safe number of follicles have been identified, some women can get pregnant spontaneously the old fashioned way. Once again, it is difficult to imagine that any doctor would advise a woman to proceed with a cycle that had produced 8 follicles. Such a woman would be instructed to refrain from intercourse until days after the eggs were released so that there would be no possibility of a higher order multiple pregnancy occurring.
That suggests that the mother is in some way responsible for the octuplet pregnancy, either by refusing to follow medical advice or by treating herself with fertility medications without the aid of a doctor. The Kaiser clinic where the mother received her pregnancy care has already announced that they were not responsible in any way for this pregnancy. The mother came to them at 12 weeks, and they diagnosed a septuplet pregnancy (when there are so many babies, it is difficult to count accurately). In addition, while they strongly counseled her to reduce the number of babies, the mother refused.
I want to emphasize that these thoughts are pure speculation, but an octuplet pregnancy is inconsistent with responsible infertility care. In the current medico-legal environment, where infertility specialists can be held responsible for medical expenses associated with a higher order multiple pregnancy, it is difficult to imagine that any doctor would take the risk.
Something does not add up here. A young, presumably unmarried woman, living at home with her parents, who already has 6 children is exceedingly unlikely to be diagnosed with infertility, is unlikely to be treated for infertility even if she is having difficulty getting pregnant, could not have had 8 embryos placed in her uterus by in-vitro fertilization and would almost certainly be counseled to avoid intercourse in any cycle where 8 follicles were developing. Add to that the fact that the woman showed up for care already pregnant with octuplets and suspicions are raised that this pregnancy was conceived in a deliberate effort to have a spectacular outcome, including any publicity and money it might generate.


Salon.com
Comments
With twins being "all the rage" in celebrity circles (Angelina Jolie, Julia Roberts, Jennifer Lopez, Ricky Martin, Lisa Marie Presley, Geena Davis, Marcia Cross, Nancy Grace - to name just a handful) I think more and more people feel like they have the right to "put in an order" for a multiple pregnancy. They just have no clue as to how exponentially the danger of your pregnancy rises with each additional baby.
Octuplets are the result of highly inappropriate fertility care. Or, maybe a case of DIY treatments - Clomid and Pergonal are available, without a prescription, online. You can buy 10 ampules in 75 iu dosages for 380.00!
Not only that, but the father of these fourteen , or at least of the eight new ones, is a Nigerian national who was arrested in September on DOMESTIC ABUSE charges and has to go to court next month and could possibly spend a year in jail.
WHERE DID THEY GET THE FERTILITY DRUG? Someone ELSE is involved in this .
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/30/mother.octuplets/
while i'm personally squicked by this, i still think it's legal to have as many children as you want / can, even if it bothers other people. and whether it's fashion or not, it's clearly doable, survivable. it even looks kinda fun, on tv.
perhaps the parents wanted to have a larger family but not so many pregnancies. perhaps they thought this way they could get medical/financial/logistical assistance that they wouldn't get any other way.
and they all thought it was 7 babies. perhaps they didn't think it thru, having such a large set of multiples, but know that they don't believe in reducing pregnancies.
perhaps the fertility doctors didn't properly / fully warn them that implanting 8 is too many.
perhaps this was their last treatment and they didn't have more money and didn't want to waste their embryos.
perhaps.
"i did a simple search; cnn reports that the mother is indeed married, and that her husband is a contract worker possibly headed soon to iraq."
Other news outlets reported that it is the grandfather who is the contract worker headed back to Iraq. I guess we'll have to wait to find out the truth.
"CBS News has learned that the family of the octuplets born this week outside Los Angeles filed for bankruptcy and abandoned a home a little over a year-and-a-half ago.
Early Show national correspondent Hattie Kauffman says the mother is in her mid-thirties and lives with her parents.
There's been no mention of the octuplets' father, Kauffman observes.
The grandfather, she adds, is apparently going to head back to his native Iraq to earn money for the growing family. He told CBS News he's a former Iraqi military man."
On the issue of how this happened:
"On The Early Show Friday, Michael Tucker, scientific director of Georgia Reproductive Specialists, says all these developments leave him "stunned. As the story's unfolded and it's gone from the potential use of just fertility drugs, or misuse thereof, to actual, apparently, IVF (in-vitro fertilization) with transfer of embryos, this is just remarkable to me that any practitioner in our field of reproductive medicine would undertake such a practice."
Tucker, who has a doctorate in reproductive physiology, says it's "absolutely" possible the octuplets' mother got pregnant with them by taking fertility drugs on her own without the help of a clinic, "and that seemed the most plausible scenario, simply because the profession, we're policed by the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, has focused so minutely on the fact that we need to reduce the number of embryos that we transfer. We really are all about seeking the one, the one embryo that's going to make the healthy, single-born baby."
This is disgusting and you are spot on Amy, this DOES raise so many questions. I mean WTF, she's living with her parents, unmarried, young and has 14 kids! I'm not supportive of mandatory "spaying", but in this case, it sounds good at this point.
We don't know and I for one find such judgmental comments and statements particularly distasteful.
We don't know and I for one find such judgmental comments and statements particularly distasteful."
And I, for one, think that political correctness has it's limits.
Having octuplets when you already have 6 YOUNG children at home (which happens to not even be HER home, but her mother's), you're bankrupt, and apparently single, is reckless, I don't care how you slice it. Sure it's her "right" to have as many kids as she wants, but it's also my "right" to get shit-faced drunk while I'm pregnant...doesn't mean it's a good idea. And I would expect harsh judgement for it.
Can you even begin to imagine the cost and time to raise all those children? It is highly improbable that all of their needs are met, especially emotionally, when mom and grandma are streched so thin. And especially in this economy, welfare is not even going to begin to cover all the basic needs these kids will need, so the family will more than likely have to rely on handouts from charities, churches, etc.
So, my distaste and judgement regarding the situation all has to do with what kind of lives these kids will end up having. As someone who grew up "poor" and on welfare, with parents who couldn't even handle 4 kids, I feel like crying for these children.
(There is always the possibility, of course, that she will somehow be "supermom" and be able to provide for all of their needs, and they will all be happy and well-cared for. I just don't see it being all that likely...call me a cynic)
But should this have happened in the first place?
My thoughts in a nut shell! Bravo!
God damn it. It annoys me I'm posting here.
But I'm going to second Dorinda on this. This isn't anyone's business.
Of course these issues (and the issues are different from the person) are something for bioethicists to discuss (which no one here is, including Amy), but speculation, most if it unconfirmed gossip, all about the woman's marital status, other children, potential living situation, etc. is NOT and should NOT be part of that discussion.
A grown-up discussion might be something like "With the advances of science, do we limit the number of embryos planted, etc." It should not be about these other issues. The unmarried part was especially interesting. Really? Poor? Really? Gosh! Let's make sure they're the right color, too! Oh wait! They're not white! Let's discuss!!
I'm thrilled that you guys are having fun hanging over the fences and gossiping mightily about a person you don't know and about information irresponsibly derived from "the neighbor" (thus far, CBS's source--lord how the media hath fallen) and feeling superior and all, but if you REALLY feel that way, how about putting together a fund of money and/or other things for this family? If she's poor, how about help instead of disdain? Really? You won't be giving money? What.a.shock.
Seriously, debating the question of bioethics, sure! Debating it based on someone's personal life or circumstances, er, no.
I agree that the media has (as usual) done a poor job articulating anything beyond "Look at this!" (Or, as I heard on NPR, "Marvel at 46 Health Care Professionals Pulling this Off with Nary A Question about Risk")
And I hope that whenever this woman emerges and if she decides to talk to the media, that she will answer "Why did you do this?" That ought to provoke some interesting discussions, too.
I don't care what color the woman is. I do not agree with her choice, but accept and respect her right to make it. I don't think anyone is having "fun", I'm not. Perhaps I'm guilty of a little envy, I'll just OWN IT right now. Reading thsi post made me pissed, I'll admit it.
In the end I wish this woman and her family happiness.
My twins were conceived in an IUI cycle using a Pergonal-type medicine. We took the risk of potentially conceiving six, although the odds of doing so were VERY low (like, 1/100,000), because the overwhelming likelihood was that I wouldn't get pregnant at all, or would have just one baby if I did. Had we canceled the cycle for ovarian overstimulation, the thousands of dollars we'd already spent in drugs and monitoring would have been completely wasted. We think I lost a triplet shortly after implantation, and while I wasn't sorry not to have triplets, I was hopeful about the prospect of twins. I knew the risks in advance, and it was a scary pregnancy, but they were born healthy in the end, and now I'm very glad to have them.
"We possess the technology to assist in infertility - how should this technology be used? Are there hard and fast rules or regulations on this process, or should there be? More concretely, what are the risks of this multiple birth, both for the children and the mother?"
YES! The problem is how do we find answers to these to make "everyone" happy? In short, we cannot. That's where it gets hairy!
"I find it distasteful to speculate on the motives of a woman one does not know particularly when some of those comments derive from the woman's marital status or lack of income."
I can see your point about the tastefulness of speculating before we have complete information, but I would respectfully disagree with your comment about marital status or lack of income.
Anyone who cares about the wellbeing of children MUST take into account the marital status and lack of income of the mother. Simply put, it is grossly and unforgivably irresponsible for a woman who already has 6 children to take infertility medication to have more.
I know that this woman claims she had IVF, but she also insisted that she was going to breastfeed all 8 babies, which is clearly impossible and any woman who has had children knows that. There is a big disconnect here between this woman's desires and reality, and that poses serious problems for those children.
It seems clear from the post and comments that the facts in this case are like shifting sand and the real story has yet to emerge. My own layman's opinion is that assuming this pregnancy happened with the assistance of a doctor or clinic, then said doctor or clinic should feel the full weight of appropriate professional and (if applicable) legal sanctions. Having gone through the full gamut of infertility treatments with my wife, from the relatively mild Clomid regime to potent hormone injections of Gonal-F and the like, and knowing how we were screened first by our OB and then a reproductive endocrinologist, I find it utterly mind-boggling that a woman who had delivered 6 children in 5 pregnancies would be considered a candidate for such aggressive treatment.
Even if she lied, wouldn't a baseline exam have told her doctors that she'd had children, even if they couldn't tell how many?
And if she received fertility meds online without a prescription, then she needs to be punished.
Seriously? No one wants to stone her. Don't be ridiculous. I also agree it is her "right" to have the children. Again, just because it is a "right" doesn't mean it's a good decision, or that no one should be allowed to say anything about it.
"Of course these issues are something for bioethicists to discuss , but speculation, most if it unconfirmed gossip, all about the woman's marital status, other children, potential living situation, etc. is NOT and should NOT be part of that discussion."
I think you're conflating two discussions here...one is the bioethics problem, and one is the implications of this woman's actions on her children's lives, and on society in general (not that I'm saying a single family is a huge burden on society). They're separate discussions. And both are worthy of being discussed.
"Anyone who cares about the wellbeing of children MUST take into account the marital status and lack of income of the mother. Simply put, it is grossly and unforgivably irresponsible for a woman who already has 6 children to take infertility medication to have more."
And I 100% agree with what Amy says, here. Saying we should just keep our mouths shut, turn our heads and walk away, sounds a little to me like the people who say it's none of their business when they see a parent smack their child to the ground. I don't agree in either case.
If you don't like it and disagree, don't participate. Walk away without reading or responding, since, after all, it's not your "business."
This should have been:
"There may be a "right" for a woman to have as many babies as she chooses, but there is no right that shouldn't carry a corresponding responsibility."
Glad that didn'thappen.
With that said, it's time for CPS to show up and figure out what is going on. If need be, to remove all 14 of the kids.
I'm not worried though. It will be a long wait.
But mostly, on a personal level, these tales of multiple births, of women having litters of babies, have always been defended (by the families or the women themselves) because they did not believe in abortion - that they feel abortion is killing babies - and therefore they could not choose to surgically reduce the number of fetuses. As someone who is vehemently pro-choice, it just made (and makes) me furious - because what the hell kind of double standard is that? "I can use any medical proceedure necessary, including IVF, to allow myself to get pregnant, but I'm against YOUR right to make a choice about the fetus in YOUR womb."
Pisses me off. And to those who, using fertility drugs, say it's "God's will" that eight fetuses were conceived, I say it was God's will that made you infertile in the first place.
This is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!
So here is my only third comment. It is likely not worth much and evidence I am up too late.
I am not the world's greatest Christian, but do remember that judging others, particularly with flimsy evidence, is discouraged.
That's it. I'm gone now.
I'm not conflating anything by the way. I separated them. Bioethics is one thing. Judging someone's life is another. You want to discuss bioethics, feel free. You want to judge someone else's life. Take a second to look at your own first and make sure it's perfect before you continue.
Oh, and don't tell me what to do anymore. Thanks. I don't need a mommy.
Amy, Jesus, they all picked up the story from the same source. You should at least wait until things are confirmed before meeting out 'justice' and opinions. But, it's luck, right? You'll get hits! Nothing matters more!
For a woman who already has 6 children to have access to fertility drugs is ridiculous. And I would have to agree with your suspicions that this was an irresponsible ploy to garner publicity and possibly wealth.
My worst fear is that these 14 children will suffer emotional neglect - not even Wonder Women has the ability to give personal attention to 14 people at a time.
As the mother of triplets, I know my IVF result is considered a failure by the system. I was fortunate to deliver big healthy infants, but I fully ackowledge that the outcome could have been disasterous. Multiples are not the desired result.
I have no problem stating that a single mom living with her parents has no business undergoing fertility treatment with 6 kids at home. What could be the motive? I will not be surprised at all to find out that this is an attention seeking ploy. Didn't Jon and Kate just get a $1 million + home?
She showed up wanting to do 3, but dropped it down to 2 after the doctor told her that with her frame (around 5'5 and 100 pounds) that she would have problems carrying a triplet pregnancy. She was told that if she didn't conceive with 2 this first round of IVF, that they would put in 3 the next time. She did conceive, and is now going for her second baby. They've agreed to put in 3 if 3 embryos thaw. Of course she's a little heavier how (like 10 pounds heavier), but she's still under 35. While it's not what I would choose to do, she is hoping for twins (so she won't have to go through IVF two more times- they want 4), so I can see her line of thinking I guess.
I don't think that discussing the many facts and reported "facts" are
indicative of meanness or malice or feelings of superiority or any of the other listed or suggested motives for considering this story...look guys
look guys, this is on ALL of the local AND national news programs, this is on radio, t.v. and all of the blogs from what I've heard...EVERYONE, not just in California,is talking about and discussing this story...why shouldn't we?
I am tired of the pious, above it all, attitudes from people who question an OB/GYN for posting this...who better ?
Anyone who pretends they have not thought about this story , or talked about it or wondered about what was the thinking behind a mother of SIX trying to have ONE more, much less multiples, is a phony!
I'm going to reserve final judgment until we learn exactly what happened, but at this point it appears she was irresponsible.
"at this point it appears she was irresponsible."
Somebody was very irresponsible. She is insisting that it was a doctor, but I find that extremely hard to believe unless her doctor is the medical equivalent of Rod Blagojevich.
The entire story if filled with claims that stretch credulity. How would perform IVF on a patient every year (the previous 6 children? At almost $20,000 per procedure, who could afford IVF every year? Who would implant 8 embryos at one time? Why does the California Department of Public Health have no record of anyone performing an IVF procedure with 8 embryos?
A far better and far more believable explanation is that she took fertility drugs without telling anyone, in an effort to conceive multiples.
That argument is essentially the same one made by the fringe religious groups who don't take medicine because it's God's will that we be ill or healed. Somehow I suspect you're not a Christian Scientist, though. Care to explain how infertility is different from any other disabling disease in being God's Will?
However, I stand by the fundamentals of the argument I made, that infertility is a disease no different from any other and no less deserving of treatment.
I agree with Dorinda. I read this post in order to see if any real information was provided in the last 24 hours, and apparently the media can't get the facts right yet.
While I'm upset that any woman would crank out that many babies, for any reason, there's vastly too much speculation going on here. There's way too much "what if" analysis and judgmental commentary going on here.
I prefer to wait until more facts are in. Otherwise, in general, I agree that mismanagement of new technologies will be causing more problems, such as over fertilization and excessive child bearing.
I want nothing more than to see people who want children to have children.
I am criticizing a select group who refuse selective reduction and, against medical advice, insist on carrying litters of babies to term, because they don't believe in abortion. They don't believe in abortion, they will vote and elect officials based on this belief, they will deny me , if possible, my right to make MY OWN choice about MY fertility - and yet I have to sit by and hear them say (as the woman in questions mother said) "What, do you expect us to kill babies?"
And, often, these women and their families will say it was God's will that they gave birth to their sick litter, and to them I say - TO THEM - no, it was God's will that you were infertile.
So, I'm sorry if I offended anyone who is seeking, undergoing, remembering fertility treatments. I don't think God made you infertile, or less than fertile. But you're not manipulating the system for your own gain, against the advice of medical professionals and against the health of all of the embryos.
And if any of you are pro-life, well, I'm happy for you, but I'll certainly argue that fetus manipulation should be a two way street.
I'm just coming to this whole discussion from a very different perspective, but I think it's important to remember how choices about fertility are not limited just to reproduction.
And your choices can affect mine.
(OK - I'm stepping off the soap box, and politely asking for everyone's forgiveness who I might have offended in the first place.)
"but do remember that judging others, particularly with flimsy evidence, is discouraged."
The main point of my post is not about "judging" others, it is about the fact that this woman's story makes no sense.
Unless she has some sort of mad-scientist infertility doctor, it is virtually impossible to believe that anyone would treat her for infertility, that she could afford the procedures, or that anyone would implant 8 embryos at once. The fact that she is unmarried and in financial difficulty makes the story that she tells even more unbelievable.
We don't yet know what happened, but a fews vials of Pergonal, self-administered, would account for the whole situation, without involving anyone else, and for only several hundred dollars, as opposed to the $120,000 for 6 IVF procedures.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets
If she were a super wealthy white woman I'd still think it highly
irresponsible to have so many babies. This planet has a limited
amount of resources. And it's insane for the media to act as if
it's a cute and/or remarkable thing.
My bet is still on the grandmother being wrong, and the woman doing deliberate overstimulation.
"The single mother of octuplets born in California last week is seeking $2m from media interviews and commercial sponsorship to help pay the cost of raising the children...
Although still confined to an LA hospital bed, she intends to talk to two influential television hosts this week - media mogul Oprah Winfrey, and Diane Sawyer, who presents Good Morning America.
Her family has told agents she needs cash from deals such as [diaper] sponsorship - she will get through 250 [diapers] a week over the next few months - and the agents will gauge public reaction to her story. A veteran from the ICM agency said: “If she wins over Oprah or Diane Sawyer, she will have the world at her feet.”
Her earning power, though, could be diminished by a growing ethical and medical controversy. Experts believe that the unnamed fertility specialists who gave her in vitro fertilisation (IVF), should not have implanted so many embryos, and in choosing to carry all eight to term, Suleman ignored guidelines, risking both their health and her own."
I respect the right of couples to have large families, even very large families, if they want. But I boggle at who would risk octuplets with six kids already. The surviving Morrison sextuplet has cerebral palsy... can you imagine even one child with special needs on top of six more? Much less potentially eight?
This woman may be unfit, and I've always been on the fence about carrying multiples in the face of overwhelming negative odds, but I've mostly been waiting to see what shakes out from this before making any judgments. But I'm disturbed with what this brings out in people. An extreme case like this, too, is so easy for people to use to "prove" something (like because you pay taxes, you have the right to make judgments about anyone who ever uses any social services, ever. I suppose this means that I can now judge those who use 9-1-1 if they have an accident they should have foreseen. After all, I also contribute to that service, and so, by this logic, if I disagree that someone had a "true" accident, and used the service, well, I have no bought bitching rights.).
In the extreme cases, it seems so easy to say "hey, I pay TAXES, and this woman has 14 kids!" But the number of kids she has is almost beside the point. If she's unfit, she's unfit for other reasons, outside of that.
Of course, it's a ridiculous concept. It's our God-given RIGHT to reproduce and do what we will with the new lives over which we now have dominion correct?
Reading this story, I'm not so sure the film was such a draconian idea anymore.
"Your comment that "infertility is a disease no different from any other and no less deserving of treatment" is ridiculous."
I have to strongly disagree. The most basic definition of a disease is "an alteration in normal body function." One could make a strong argument that THE most important bodily function of all is reproduction. If you can't reproduce and you want to, that's a disease.
Is it as serious as fatal diseases? No, of course not, but the stomach flu isn't likely to be fatal either, and it's still a disease.
Your comment also ignores that most cases of infertility are actually part of a disease process, or sequelae of same. Female infertility in particular is largely the result of PCOS, premature ovarian failure, endometriosis, or pelvic inflammatory disease. All are diseases by any stretch of the imagination, all have symptoms other than the inability to have a child, and all are basically non-terminal. We don't know how to cure any of them (except PID, if it's caught early enough), so we treat the symptoms which are troublesome to the patient. Metformin for insulin sensitivity, hormone replacement therapy for the hot flashes and bone loss of premature menopause, drugs and surgery for endometriosis pain... and Clomid and gonadotropins for the infertility.
In my case, I had a pituitary malfunction which caused several hormone disturbances, including my reproductive hormones. The only treatment for that is to provide artificial hormones to treat the symptoms which are bothersome to the patient -- we can't fix the pituitary itself. Hypothyroidsm sucked, so I took thyroid medication; hypogonadism sucked, so I took medicine to make my ovaries work. Why should the former be more deserving of treatment than the latter?
And I didn't mean that for a disease to be considered serious, it has to be terminal. (I'm not sure if it came out that way, but I just want to clarify that. )
As to the topic of discussion, while I respect and understand the woman's decision not to abort any of the fetuses, I can't understand why in the world she was undergoing any kind of fertility treatment or trying to get pregnant when she has 6 children already and apparently cannot take care of the ones she has- at least on a financial level since she filed for bankruptcy and lives with her parents. There is no possible way any one person can adequately care for 14 children- period. One infant is a full-time job. 8 is madness. She needs a full-time staff to help care for them and what about her other 6 children? Not to mention if her father goes to Iraq and her mother has already said she will not be at the house when the daughter returns from the hospital, who is left? Volunteers? When will she have time to screen them? How will she know they even have experience caring for infants? I can't even fathom the diaper-changing and the cost for diapers alone is going to be in the thousands. It's all just ridiculous and the sad thing is there is no reasonable solution. This woman needs psychiatric care.
I'm wondering exactly -how- possible. Any thoughts here?
Sorry you thought I was being nasty. Wasn’t trying to be.
“I'm not conflating anything by the way. I separated them. Bioethics is one thing. Judging someone's life is another. You want to discuss bioethics, feel free. You want to judge someone else's life. Take a second to look at your own first and make sure it's perfect before you continue.”
Ok, I’ll take back what I said about you conflating. You simply seem to think one is “okay” to discuss and the other is not…and I disagree. I really don’t like the argument that my life must be perfect before I can look at or judge someone else’s life. By that reasoning we should never judge murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc since NO ONE is perfect, and I highly doubt that you think that is the best course of action. Speaking for myself only, the only “judgement” I have on this woman and her situation is that the children are very likely to suffer for her actions and choices. That she appears to also be having financial difficulties and little to no social support just makes it more likely that the children will suffer, and more likely that they will suffer quite a bit. I don’t care how many children a woman has, or how she has them…until it becomes likely that it is going to have a negative effect on the children themselves. Then I care.
“All the political correctness about "not judging"....how about DISCERNMENT?
I don't think that discussing the many facts and reported "facts" are
indicative of meanness or malice or feelings of superiority or any of the other listed or suggested motives for considering this story...look guys, this is on ALL of the local AND national news programs, this is on radio, t.v. and all of the blogs from what I've heard...EVERYONE, not just in California,is talking about and discussing this story...why shouldn't we?
I am tired of the pious, above it all, attitudes from people who question an OB/GYN for posting this...who better ?”
And I agree with this.
“Oh, and don't tell me what to do anymore. Thanks. I don't need a mommy.”
Wasn’t telling you what to do. Let me phrase it better. It would be more logically consistent for you to stay out of the discussion all together since you believe it is none of our (or your) business. To me, it seems a little…hypocritical, maybe?...to believe we have no right to discuss this woman’s choices and life and then take part in the discussion.
I know the one paragraph I quoted and agreed with was from scaredgrandma, it wasn't quite clear above :-)
Second, isn't this the land of liberty? Why is a woman not have the freedom to bear lots of children if they love and want them?
Third, are all of us parents absolutely sure of how we'll pay all of our children's expenses when we get pregnant? Probably not. Parenthood is a leap of faith--financially, emotionally, and otherwise.
I'm certain that Nadya will find a way to create a loving environment for her children and provide them what they need--and building a community of supporters sounds like the wisest way to do so. I'm not so quick to judge this woman.
Taz/Parenting blogger
http://laboroflove.typepad.com/