Helvetica Stone

artsy soul in a scientific world

Helvetica Stone

Helvetica Stone
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Helvetica Stone wants art and science to hold hands and look up in wonder at the miracle of existence. See more on my website: http://www.helveticastone.com

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JUNE 26, 2011 2:17PM

How The OS System Drives Our Choices

Rate: 32 Flag

One thing to keep in mind about online communities is that they are shaped by the decisions of programmers and developers.  From the Microsoft Word grammar checker that in the 1990’s began to ask us to consider using “that” instead of “which,” (which may have statistically changed the use of these two words in the English language); to the Craigslist anonymous e-mail contact system that allowed almost total anonymity of providers of sometimes predatory goods or services; to E-bay’s often changing listing and rating system; to the “Like” button on Facebook with an "Unlike(undo)" but no “Dislike;” relatively minute decisions that programmers make in the development process of website applications can make a huge impact on the nature of interaction and the products of content created from this interaction.

One of the attractive things about Open Salon is its simplicity. You feel like you have some control over your own blog space:  You can add, edit, or delete your own posts, and you can moderate comments made on your posts, if only by deleting them. 

However, unless I'm wrong (after about 8 months as a member) you cannot edit or delete your own comments made to someone else’s blog after you have made them.  

So, there have been some conflicts here on OS recently, particularly in the comment threads, and what constitutes constructive or destructive commenting.  Is flattery ever destructive?  Are insults ever funny and righteous? 

The point here that I’m trying to make is that people here on OS should be very careful about making comments on other's blogs, and commenting on other’s comments on other people’s blogs, because, in effect, that is where you are most vulnerable.

You can control your own posts and comment threads by editing your own or deleting others who offend (at least right now, in terms of how the software functions).  However, once you comment on other's posts, you cannot.  You give up your rights to that material, potentially forever.  (Unless they are removed by deletion of your account...but then, there might always be an archive...etc., etc.)

However, programming isn’t the ONLY thing that drives our choices here at OS... At least four other kinds of ethics that seem to be operating here:
  • journalistic/intellectual goals towards excellence
  • artistic expectations of authenticity and self-expression
  • literary expectations of the creation of beauty and meaning
  • therapeutic/social benefits of building community

I think the conflict comes in part from a lack of respect as to the original blogger's apparent intent.  To judge a fiction post by journalistic standards seems bizarre; a poetry post for its political or intellectual integrity seems like a low blow; and to attack a post that is clearly aimed at building a supportive community for intellectual or personal integrity also seems disrespectful.   

It’s not that I’m against constructive conflict or critical thinking:  on the contrary, I think both are the drivers of discovery and positive change and do engender excellence, which we all should aim for in our own lives. 

It would be terrific, however, if we could find a better model for excellence that allowed for more inclusion and diversity of endeavors.  Everyone aiming for excellence on their own terms, defined by their own goals, in a open community with others committed to similar values.

But in open systems where the goals are not clear and the social or cultural conventions that frame discussions in useful ways are not firmly in place, it seems particularly destructive to make personal attacks on people’s character or intelligence or sanity or the choices of their personal lives.  It seems like we'd be better off keeping comments focused on the content and intent of the original post.  In the arts we called that “toxic criticism.”  It was criticism aimed at silencing or dismissing or discrediting the creator, and appeared particularly in competitive systems where rewards seemed limited and/or exclusionary.

Of course one always runs the risk of being misunderstood or disliked when one writes in any forum.  But in other arenas I’ve written in, like fiction and drama, particularly in face to face settings, we tried very hard to manage the expectations of artist, audience and the critics about what works and doesn’t work, that could frame a discussion in ways that did not rely on personal attacks.  (“Your protagonist’s goals aren’t clear.  You’re using too much exposition, etc.”)  Even in the academic and technical and grant writing, there can be fruitful discussions about the intellectual ideas in material presented, and where the reasoning might be faulty, and where something valuable or relevant might have been overlooked.  (“I don’t think you’re interpreting that data right.  A graphic would be helpful here.  I don’t understand how this point relates to that, etc.”) But these must be done with respect.  (Not: ’You’re stupid and your writing is bad, and I suspect you of being a drunken fundamentalist bi-polar pedophile.”)  Unless of course you honestly believe that humor might hold some little tiny grain of truth that is ultimately constructive, as jokes sometimes do...and then, please be prepared to apologize if you offend.

Part of the challenge for all of us, with these new forms and genres driven by technology, like OS, which is a social blog but a different kind of blog from Wordpress or Twitter or anything else, is that the rules aren’t clear, and they can be affected by seemingly small decisions, like not being able to delete a comment, or be notified afterwards of a comment on a comment, that are built into the technology itself.  It’s a brave new world, but it’s a scary one.

I’m finding myself falling back on “do unto others as you would have them do unto you...” or “Do not do to others as you would not have them doing to you,” as the religious people might say.

I suspect we all have exceedingly different expectations and frames of reference about why we’re here and what we’re trying to achieve, and have very limited information about what others are doing and trying to achieve, and many of us may still be struggling with what our relationships with others here on OS should be or shouldn’t be.  It is different now than even 8 months ago when I joined...because it seems like there more voices here, it’s harder to even get heard.  But that seems to be the way of social networking.  A big party that peaks, and then everyone goes home, some having a great time, some, the worse off for it.   

I'm actually kind of shy, and am not quite comfortable calling the people I follow and have favorited here "friends."  I do feel like I've made personal aquaintances here, and read lots of very interesting writing, and I've found almost all of the comments to be very helpful overall.  There are real connections here...but they are more authorial/reader to me, than a person-to-person type. 

Anyhow, I’m open to anything you have to say about this post, critical or supportive.  

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All excellent points! When we make comments we cannot edit/delete, we are forced to leave as is (and hope ok), write more comments to clarify first comment, PM to apologize and beg for removal of comment, or get all pissed off that we can say what we like. Even if NOT saying mean things to people, misunderstanding happens so often, especially in a worked up crowd.
I think "You’re stupid and your writing is bad, and I suspect you of being a drunken fundamentalist bi-polar pedophile." is an excellent comment, and I would like to be able to use that in all my further posts. :)
This is about the most logical and even handed presentation on this subject that I have ever read here and should be required reading for anyone doing a blog on OS.
I am the king of this fantasy land
and I think you are all weird and crazy
so as I raise mighty pen in my hand
to change things I find I am too lazy.

Hee hee. Just having fun.
There is a such a spectrum between being mean and giving constructive criticism. Anyone who disagrees is a drunken bipolar fundamentalist pedophile with other assorted comorbid personality disorders yet to be disclosed.
Like with porn, you know it when you see it , and the "honesty," as a guise -- when it's just meanness-- doesn't fool many here.
I found this post very brainy and very interesting. I wholly enjoy writing and reading meta posts, and don't understand why they are somehow considered inferior.

Misunderstanding are are given here , and we all should laughingly understand that, and do what we can to not let misunderstanding result in full blown feuds.
This post made me make the choice to favorite you STAT.
You're right...I hate that you can't remove comments that you have made on someone else's blog, like you can on facebook or many other sites. Several times I have made comments while tired or after a couple glasses of wine, and immediately regretted something I had said, but it was too late.
well said, if a bit long.
I think you've said it very well and clearly here, and I thank you for your observations as well as sensible statements.
♥R
Yes. What Torman said, and you may not be aware of what a towering presence of sanity and reason he is here. It's excellent validation. Not that you need any--you are holding your own :) (r)
Excellent. I say no more lest I offend.
I'm fine with that, because it requires you to think before you hit the post button. It's like when you're ready to fire off an angry email but then you say, well, maybe I shouldn't blow this up and you think it over. Then you send a less emotional and far more effective one later.
I think that constructive criticism is important, but when purposely hurtful name-calling begins on a comment thread, a line has been crossed. I too have wanted to rewrite a comment after re-reading and seeing typos or the tone was wrong, but had to leave it out there. Great post Helvetica!
R
Thanks to all...and DH Austin, I agree. It is too long-winded, I should have taken more time to edit down...but my kid keeps wanting to play and that's more important...everyone, do feel free to skim and comment only on the main points.

Tony, I'm not really saying that feature should be changed...I just think it's something to be aware of. Cheers to you.
I asked Kerry about an editing feature for the comments.

He said, "that feature will be implemented around the same time as the arrival of the rainbows and unicorns. .. Soon"
I asked Kerry about an editing feature for the comments.

He said, "that feature will be implemented around the same time as the arrival of the rainbows and unicorns. .. Soon"
Thank you for breaking it down into those four catergories (journalistic, artistic, literary, social) and for pointing out that each needs to be evaluated differently, according to what type of writing it is; and also for explaining the concept of toxic criticism vs. evaluating the work itself. I never thought of it in these terms before. Really thoughtful post.
Helvetica,

I strongly disagree with you on this issue.

I left OS for a year and a half because of frustration with the deletions. Frequently they are used as a form of censorship…which I think has no place in a public forum where comments are invited just by publishing a thread.

I think the delete function should be eliminated…and I think anything posted should stay where it is. Adding another delete function (to remove postings from other people’s blog) would be a step in a decidedly wrong direction.

I’m back because I just love to discuss contentious subjects. If I am deleted from anyone’s thread from this point on, I will mention it somewhere (probably a post of my own) and just not post in that person’s threads from then on.
A thoughtful and reasonable assessment all around, Helvetica.

Lezlie
Thank you for putting this so well, I'm still reeling from recent events. It's especially hard because it's usually people we like on both sides, both people wind up injured as well as everyone around them. Next month will be my two year anniversary here, it wasn't as bad when the system wasn't so slow. I think it adds a lot to the frustration in many ways. OS is a huge lesson in patience.
Helvetica makes some good points, but Frank makes a good point, also, I think. This is one of those concepts (being able to delete at will) that rests in a gray area rather than being a clearly black or white topic. I don’t think being able to delete at will does anything to clarify the intentions of OS, or anything else, for that matter. I’ve never deleted an objectionable comment from any of my blogs and I never will.

I have addressed such comments, and will continue to, in ways that I hope will clarify either my meaning or the offender’s meaning, at least until I reach a point with a certain offender where I realize such efforts are futile, at which point I just withdraw from discussing with that person, but I leave the thread there for future reference. Sometimes, referring back to those threads, either intentionally or inadvertently after having completely forgotten them, I have realized that I could have said something differently or pursued a different approach altogether, and I believe such experiences have improved my ability to express myself through written word.

Clearly, the problem is that the written word lacks all of the significant input of body-language through which a majority of expression can be communicated, so it’s important that both parties, the author and the reader, be careful about presentation and interpretation, but I’m not convinced that deletion-at-will is conducive to a successful transaction. I find that honesty on the part of both parties is the only truly successful means of improved communication; honesty in either how you’ve interpreted something or in what you’ve presented.

Honesty sometimes leads to disagreement, sometimes resolvable and sometimes not. But disagreement is not necessarily a personal attack; if you said it, own it, either by supporting it or admitting it was wrong. So, my view on this is that simple honesty is more useful than deletion, and deletion doesn’t necessarily serve honesty, although deleting comments may be a direct form of dishonesty; it may say more about the person deleting than the deleted. But, then, some comments are worthy only of deletion, which still doesn’t mean they should be.

I've RATED because this is well-written, but I'm not sure more deletions presents a solution to anything.
I couldn't have said it better, but why can't the circles co-exist? This should not only be possible but done. There's room for everyone.
I would love for you to moderate this place, Helvetica. Especially during the kind of trying times we're having right now. Excellent post.
Helvetica:

Well done, vry thoughtful, with a calming effect and some honest mea culpa.
Frank: I agree, last night I came home from a long weekend shift and saw Linda S's post and another woman writer who were both saying good-bye to OS due to offensive comments. My comment was sarcastic to a sexist comment, but like you, in hindsight I wish I would have slept on it. I always feel differently after a good night's sleep.

Monitoring isn't going to happen, that requires real humans, and a large staff that I doubt OS can afford. They do have a "flag" for articles, and I wonder if a "flag" for comments is possible? That way at least OS can collect data on comments that readers feel cross the line from "constructive criticism" to being offensive and hurtful.

Rated, and thanks for writing!
You bring up some interesting points. I do find it frustrating that you cannot delete your own comment on another blogger's post.
Very good points. I am very used to nasty comments on my blog (not OS) so I haven't seen anything here that would unnerve me. But, not everyone feels that way. And, I agree, not being able to delete comments does impact this site.
Frank: I can respect the general position that deleting a negative comment about one's own post is, at worst, cowardly...and a well-crafted dramatic debate is indeed one of the joys of blogging...but what if someone makes what you determine is not constructively critical but a clearly harassing and derogatory personal comment about someone else on your post's comment thread? And you're the only one that can delete them? If you don't delete it, aren't you being a party to libel and harassment, which is against the terms of service and also can be potentially illegal?

In the way OS is set up, you are defacto responsible for maintaining the integrity of your post, and--though only through implication, your comment thread--because it's your party, your post, you're the host. If someone was harassing someone at my party, I'd ask them to leave. If they wouldn't leave, I'd kick them out and/or call the police.

And about it being a public space...sorry to burst your bubble, but did you read the terms of service when you signed up? The overall ongoing broadcast may be public, but this is a private company that now can use anything you post here for just about any legally definable purpose in perpetuity, with no compensation to you, including editing your headings and even your posts...even after you delete your entire account...although they are graciously allowing you to keep your underlying rights to the content that you post. (Although most savvy writers know that these terms severely limit the future viability of your material...because you will be unable to offer exclusive rights of this material to other commercial publishers, who will want that. A warning to those of us posting bits of novels in progress that we might want to try to publish with an established house some day).

Good time to review those terms, everyone: http://open.salon.com/support/terms

Particularly: "You will not harrass or intimidate any other user of the Service or the Site."

Although I see these terms haven't been updated since 2008...

Matt: Aw. I can at times be diplomatic, but I'm also just as inappropriate as the next person. I don't envy Emily her job or any of others who moderate. Moderation and "online community management" is a huge hairy issue, there are really deep ethical and legal and social consequences about it that are all moving targets.

Kate: Hmm, that's kind of an interesting idea, being able to flag other people's comments on other people's blogs as offensive. But who's following up with flags? Probably not Emily, who's trying to pick posts to promote. I think the OS strategy is to push that moderation responsibility down to us, the bloggers. WordPress generally operates the same way... except there can be even more layers of self-editing, like reviewing comments before they are even posted. There are a lot more options in a tool like WordPress...but not nearly the built in community that there is here.

And I still like it, and you all, pretty much just as you are.

Thank you all for your reasonable comments!
Thanks for bringing up the problem of posting novels here. I am not serializing, no ma'am. Once you hit publish . . . well it's published. Mine's for sale.
Helvetica, I think you are wonderfully level-headed and I rate you for this. However having spent the entire day here writing Pm's or emails on OS to many others, I have to say that the main problem here before WAY before all others, is the pacing, the slowness, the way that reading anyone or writing to anyone or going to one's own blog takes for-eeeeeeeeevvvvvveeee. As I said to the Salon people in charge of Open Salon , it's almost a form of torture, or that one could have spent ten hours reading "War and Peace" in the time it took to make emails here. It really is the elephant in the room. What to do about it? I think you are technologically as well as humanly smart and I wonder what you might say or better yet, suggest the owners do? There won't be many left is the pace isn't better. R
This is a fabulous post and should be required reading for commenters on ALL online sites.
Wendy: Emily Holleman said in May that the speed and other technical issues were being addressed:

http://open.salon.com/blog/emily_holleman/2011/05/24/temporary_changes_to_cover_schedule

"As most of you have noticed, we've been having serious technical issues with Open Salon for sometime now. Believe me, I understand your frustrations -- the site is as slow for me as it is for you. The good news is that many of these problems (especially concerning the speed of the site) should be largely resolved within the next few weeks. Beyond that, we have further plans to make major changes to the site interface that should dramatically improve the user experience."

I wrote a snarky post on one of scanner's frustrated blog posts about how they should do it...it looks like a bunch of javascript and php that hasn't been touched in a few years, and needs to be better synced with current standards and was probably not designed for as many users as are now registered...some purging of dead accounts might help temporarily...but I really don't know that much about this particular system or programming to be able to judge.
yes, Ive been in IT over two decades and absolutely the technology influences the dynamics of the forum. on the other hand, there is good ol unruly chaotic human nature, which seems to transcend many or even all attempts by technology to tame it. it seems that "trolls" are possible in almost any non-hobbled system.
I admire your reason and logic, well thought out...and Amen! R
Interesting take. I like the way you think. My list of comment regrets is as long as my arm and then some. There have been times (too many) when I would have given anything for the chance to delete an inartful keystroke, but that's not the way it is so what are you gonna do. As far as drive, it's like my husband likes to say, "there's always more than one reason for every choice we make."
Very well-reasoned post with some excellent points. OS is very different from any other writing site (or blog site) I've ever been a party to. It's sort of the Wild West of writing sites. You're right when you say the rules are not clearly defined. Even the rules that do exist (in the much-ballyhooed terms of service) are rarely and unevenly enforced.

Keeping with the Wild West theme, there are those on OS who apparently envision themselves as Doc Holliday or Wyatt Earp or even Calamity Jane - think about it, you'll come up with your own matches. And there are the bad guys who like to ride into town and shoot everything up just for the hell of it. There's the kindly and wizened bartender(s) and a few schoolmarms. But, for the most part, it's a community in the throes of defining itself while simply trying to stay alive.

OS has been many reincarnations since I joined two years ago - all of them completely different and yet, weirdly similar. It continues to evolve. And maybe, just maybe, that's the beauty and the draw of OS. It continues to redefine itself, refusing to be constrained or corraled.

But then again, I could be all wet.

Rated.
...and don't forget: OS is processing with some alacrity so that I can respond right now!

A terrific essay. Right from the start. Yes, OS is very user-friendly.

Even in the darkest (recent) days of the OS processing ice-age (when I couldn't get on smoothly until midnight) I was very reluctant to move after I tried-out other more complex blog sites (I have to fight for every minute of writing time, so user friendly is important to me)

But in all matters you raised you put in a nutshell all of my vague feelings. I've gotten bugged a couple times and given an angry reply to a political stance, but I should know by now that all my political ideas are half baked and emotional. Humility, ASH, Humility! I could have been a lot more diplomatic and effective (which is why I have sworn off political commenting as much as possible).

I, too, want to Comment only on "what works" in anyone's posting. Yet I do appreciate the several of you who are devout and zealous about principles of writing. You are my educators.

What you have formulated in this essay should be at least a corollary of the OS Manifesto.

Sincerely yours,
Sober Libertarian Obsessive Philanderer
vzn: You've been in tech a lot longer than me, then...things seem to change quickly in some ways...and not so much in others...

bluestocking babe: Your husband sounds like one terrific guy. I agree that there are multiple drivers for decisions.

And if I didn't mention you by name...please know I SO appreciate your comments...and I give you a hug, if that doesn't offend!
OS is a mysterious wonder.