welcome to OS :D glad to see you

Hey, Hyblaean. My essay about gossip and rape is an idea I sold to a magazine a few years back and then killed it because I didn't want it published under my byline. However, I'm willing to posit it under a pseudonym. Anyway, over the years, I've had some ideas that I don't want to risk selling and this might be a good place to have them assayed.

Post away, I will happily read ya!

Your theory does hold water. I see your point well. My theory is kill the rapest.To hell with the gossipers. And I hate violence but, when done properly, positive results can be attained.

Bigguns it is an analogy that holds water. I pay a lot of attention to comedians and Silverman is one of the more aggressive female comedians to find commercial acclaim. Those skewered by her work would most likely agree with your claims.

If you think I'm trivializing rape by analogizing it to gossip, then consider this: I've asked various raped women about the subsequent gossip and they all asserted the same: "It felt like I was raped a second time."

I imagine those women were speaking metaphorically. Consider a thought experiment: You're asking a rape victim what her experience was like, and she says, "It felt like people were gossiping about me." Does that sounds as ridiculous to you as it does to me? If so, then you'll see that the equals sign doesn't go both ways. Your theory doesn't hold water.

@ Mr. St. Amant

I asked the victims fresh from rape and gossip. They offered the analogy. Then and now, it isn't my place to tell them how to feel. As to whether "those women were speaking metaphorically," sure they were. Me too.

Although I employed an equal sign, that was partly to get some people reading. I don't believe that gossip and rape are exactly equal. Rather, I think that there is sufficient general congruence that one shouldn't gossip. So, as to whether it holds water or not, I think it holds sufficient water to view gossip with a degree of the repugnance reserved for rape.

It sounds as though we might disagree less than I'd originally thought. Thanks for the response.

It’s all about power

I just had a conversation this past week with a person who reports to me at work and was an employee of the company when an extremely unfortunate incident took place involving the person I report to. I have to preface this with a comment; “I DETEST OFFICE GAMES.”

About two years ago, my boss was the target of vicious and destructive rumors, so much of a target that he was investigated by our Corporate HR Director. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that my boss can frequently difficult to work with, but one should either learn to deal with that, or move on. Unfortunately, however, some people decided to take a different course, spreading rumors about an illicit affair with another person who reports to him.

The connections these people were determined to associate his transgressions include:
• The female employee would buy the boss gifts and make a serious production of presenting those gifts to him in settings in which many others would be present, including me.
• She would make gestures of affection in view of many others, including me.
• She would make comments to others, always in a group setting, including me, such as “don’t worry about this issue, or that issue, I took care of that over dinner with him last night at my house.”
• She would have meetings with the boss, always closing the door to the office they met in. At the completion of their meeting, she would make another production of combing her hair, straightening her dress and shirt, using a tissue to blot her face of supposed blush-produced moisture.
• She would attempt to persuade my fellow managers that she was seriously connected to our boss by making comments such as “The boss (although she would use is name) wants it done like this,” or “He told me to tell you,” etc.

The truly sad thing is that all the other managers who report to this man took the bait and sadly, they didn’t just get hooked in the lips, they literally inhaled the bait as though they hadn’t had a meal in weeks, then running amuck, took that bait to others to share it (for they now are the powerful bait disseminators).

It is incredibly distressing how the rumor mill is so addicting. You would think that people somehow received a fix of heroin or something from their participation. Shamefully, not one of the other managers could see the obvious purpose of this frightenly evil and wretched human being. I had to point out to the person I was speaking to that most people try to keep illicit affairs quiet, not advertise the damned things on CNN Headline News.

But instead, they cose to participate in the gang rape.

@ Ms. Fox and Mr. Rodgers

Thanks for reading and commenting!

Bigguns,

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The point of the comparison is being violated without consent.

I get the analogy. But it really can't be compared to the victims of rape. I have to say I'm with Rob on this one.

Thought provoking post and thank you for sharing.

Interesting and provocative post.

@ Mr. Rodgers

Yeah, I think that's an apt summation. Those who gossip violate a boundary and thrust into private space for the purpose of power.

On balance, I think your analogy of "rape = gossip" is about as accurate as "spitting on someone = shooting them in the head with a rifle." There are elements in common, but the severity of the offence is so different that the analogy is not really illuminating.

But... I am really not sure what you mean by gossip in this context. Are you talking about gossip in general or gossip about someone who was raped specifically? Because I am not sure that "oh, did you hear that Jane and John had a huge fight at the supermarket? apparently they really made a spectacle of themselves!" is in the same category as gossip about a rape victim.

If you are talking about gossip generally, then I don't think you can use gossip about rape in your defence against charges of trivialising.

@ Mr. Korke

I'm talking about general gossip. Now, I'm a gossip and I don't know that I've ever met anyone who isn't a gossip. I'm not suggesting that since everyone's a gossip that everyone is equal in this ugliness. I am arguing that all should reconsider their gossiping proclivity, that it's about power, penetration, and forced intimacy in ways that parallel rape. Mr. Korke, there certainly is incentive to disagree since you and everyone you know are likely gossips. Dismissing the seriousness of the offense obviates the imperative for change. I know I want to gossip less and if this analogy serves that aspiration, I'll cleave to it.

I suspect that if this comparision were presented to 50 men and 50 women, that a greater percentage of women would agree with it. I once saw a show about Isabella Stewart Gardener, who was an unconventional women. Her refusal to confirm agitated her peers. In the show, the narrator said, "...so they attacked her in the way they knew best: they...." And I knew he was about to say, "...they gossiped." I think most women would have been able to finish that sentence.

I was only suggesting that if you are talking about gossip in general, then perhaps:

If you think I'm trivializing rape by analogizing it to gossip, then consider this: I've asked various raped women about the subsequent gossip and they all asserted the same: "It felt like I was raped a second time."

... doesn't really hold up any more. Gossip about a rape victim is not ordinary gossip, and just because one kind of gossip is non-trivial doesn't mean all gossip is non-trivial. Some gossip really is trivial, and likening it to rape really does trivialise rape.

Personally, I think we can condemn gossip because it is mean-spirited and disrespectful (when it is; it isn't always), without resorting to enormous distortions in an effort to demonstrate that it is equivalent to rape. I mean, in what sense is gossip really an act of "penetration"?

As for the "incentive to disagree": I guess I gossip sometimes... not too much. When I do, I might say, "I really shouldn't gossip, but did you hear about..."

I think this is a different kettle of fish to, "I really shouldn't rape people, but..."

In saying this I really don't believe that I am just being defensive about any tendency I might have to gossip.

Interesting thought, dunno if I agree.

But another thought - gossip most certainly can destroy lives, the same as a violent assault.

I can see where you are going with this but no, gossip is not the same as rape, its effects are not comparable to rape. The violation that is rape is akin to soul murder. Gossip can be damaging but it can also be fought, and gossipers beat at their own game. To compare the two IS trivializing rape to some degree. Ask a woman who was raped if she'd prefer to repeat the experience, or be talked about by a bunch of mean girls, and I don't think you'd have many takers on the "let's repeat the sexual violence" front.

I reject your equation. And to say your headline was designed to get people to read it, rather than to convey your meaning, casts doubt on whether we should rely on your credibility.

Gossip does not equal rape.

However, as an exercise in rhetoric, I appreciate the skill with which you put it forward. I simply don't believe the rigor of your reasoning measures up to your writing skill.

I've got to agree with everyone calling you out on this. As someone who was attacked some years ago, no, the gossip didn't feel anything like the attack- not even in a metaphoric sense. I've been gossiped about, and yes, it's unpleasant, but it's like comparing a hangnail with a limb amputation.

@ Mr. Smith, who wrote:

"And to say your headline was designed to get people to read it, rather than to convey your meaning, casts doubt on whether we should rely on your credibility."

Then doubt the credibility of every writer and editor, for every headline is crafted to provoke readership, but in the confines of a few word. I sought to qualify my equation into a near equation, but I didn't know how to do that. I do believe it's a near equation and if there were a mathematical symbol to convey that, I would have employed that, but my choices are "equal" and "does no equal." I went with "equal" because, I believe, that's a lot closer to the truth than "does not equal."

@ peppermint, who wrote:

"I've got to agree with everyone calling you out on this."

Not everyone is. Reread the thread and you will see agreement.

"As someone who was attacked some years ago, no, the gossip didn't feel anything like the attack- not even in a metaphoric sense. I've been gossiped about, and yes, it's unpleasant, but it's like comparing a hangnail with a limb amputation."

Okay, it's not congruent for you, but don't confuse your feelings with facts: your reaction doesn't reveal all reactions. As I shared, some other raped women have reacted differently.

Its perfect though I confess I had never before thought on those lines.
I'll be coming back for more insights into other relevant topics so please keep posting.

@ blackpaw, who wrote:

"Interesting thought, dunno if I agree."

I don't know if I agree, but the similarities are disturbing. As I wrote in the essay, people don't gossip about someone's preference for Coke. It's nearly always about someone's crotch, about whether they're unfaithful or gay or sleeping with this boy or that girl. It is about intimate information and given the propensity to gossip about sex, it could seem to be about sex, but it's about power and futhermore, it's about fearmongering, about making other people afraid of straying from the confines of conformity. It is this power dynamic that is the greater congruency, not whether gossip does as much damage as rape, however you also wrote:

"But another thought - gossip most certainly can destroy lives, the same as a violent assault."

Yes, yes, yes. Some people do not survive gossip, just as some people do not survive rape. A public example is that girl who killed herself in Missouri because of cyber-gossip: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21844203/

Thanks, Moana. For a while in my life, I was paid to discern power dynamics and to see similarities. I was also paid to be brief, thus the compactness of my thesis. Of course, I've certainly jibber-jabbered in this thread.

Re: Your reply to Randy Smith:

I was actually thinking the same thing Mr. Smith was. When I read your post I felt that it didn't exactly support the title, but I did enjoy reading it because it definitely caused thought. When I read that you titled it the way you did to partly get some people reading I thought it took away from the post.

I appreciate your honesty on the subject, but I will say it casted doubt. As for every title published being meant to draw readers you're right to some extent, but I'm pretty sure their claims weren't making such an extreme statement about rape.

This is what's great about open forums though. You get to see how you came across. I found that out real quick when I made a post about feeling anything but pure, fiery hatred for Sarah Palin ;)

@ mungular

I hear ya, sister!

This is ancient, but I didn't know that all your inane comments about gossip, swollen tongues, thrusting, etc. were germinated by this excessive and absurd Open Salon essay. Just as silly and self-aggrandizing here as when you reference it, though. So -- let me get this straight -- YOU admit to gossiping occasionally yourself (as "ahem", I did at one point) as do virtually all non-canonized saints, i.e., ordinary flawed human beings -- yet WHEN OTHER PEOPLE do it...i.e., "other people you do not like or agree with", then it is rape.

But of course, when YOU gossip, it is NOT rape. Yes, makes perfect sense! In the bizarro Bigguns universe.

As someone who has ACTUALLY (rather than theoretically) survived a sexual assault, and who has (on occasion) probably been gossiped about (though never more than on Salon, where you and your junior cohort "diable4" have speculated on everything from my looks to my husband's sexual orientation to my religious affliation AKA The Church Lady), I can tell you that gossip is NOTHING like a sexual assault. Apparently you have never suffered a physical or sexual assault of any type or you'd never make such a ridiculous, lame, insensitive remark!

Gossip is annoying. At times, it is ugly. But in the end, it's the concept of "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"; gossip is just words, and often words from people who are jealous or insecure. BTW, you have some BIG sexual shortcoming or identity problem if you think ALL gossip is sexual -- it can very easily also be about money, about jobs, about relationships, about siblings, about non-sexual jealousy, about power.

It is interesting that the subject that people attack most, it often the one in which they are the weakest, or have the most fears. I think you reveal yourself here, bigguns -- and not in a very pretty way.