Bill Beck

Bill Beck
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September 30
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NOVEMBER 10, 2009 1:36PM

Progressives: Stay and Reason

Rate: 8 Flag

                          SleepOfReasonAmerica_542

Dear Jilted Fellow Democrats,

 

I understand your displeasure with the DNC.  I really do.  But allow me a few moments to keep you from leaving your support of the Democratic Party for life in the social justice wilderness.  There is a theory that the DNC and the RNC are more alike than they are different, and I agree with that analysis.  But the reason that they are more similar than they are different is that they are both products of our culture rather than our culture being produced by them.  Hoping for them to be fundamentally different is like trying to milk a chicken or get eggs from a goat.  It is not going to happen.  There are many reasons, and here are a few.

 

For starters, they both come from a society which has a superstitious view of faith.  Americans allow ancient religious practices to contaminate their rational processes.  Among those rational processes contaminated with ancient superstition is government, and the pursuit of social justice.  These things have no use for superstition or religion, however you prefer to refer to it.  Government and social justice are entirely dependent upon facts, engineering, logistics, and justice.  Witchcraft never built a road.  A crucifix never immunized a town.  A dime with “In God We Trust” never turned itself into a quarter.  Religion, and even superstition, if you take the position that they are different, are fine things, as long as they do not supplant the value of facts and the scientific process.

 

This is important because building and maintaining a society is many things, and all of them are weight, measure, and reasoning processes.  Anything that asks you to turn away from reason in order to do the right thing is asking you to do the wrong thing, when it comes to social justice.  Our religion/superstition ask many, maybe most, to turn away from civil liberties for GLBT citizens.  They would have you believe that there is something unseen and mysterious which will bestow goodness and stability on you as a result of rejecting a significant portion of your community, every community.  This is false, and in defiance of all things real and measurable.  This particular act of systematic denial of civil liberties is for the purpose of making a constituency which will hold together, and minimize the access to that which freedom and talent might ordinarily determine.  

 

This very same process is done with all groups that can be artificially created, maintained, and motivated to deprive another group.  This process is done with various ethnicities.  Assimilate to certain arbitrary aspects of culture, or be denied.  This is done with other religions.  This is done between the genders, in which case assimilation requires for women, who outnumber men, to buy into their misogynistic subjugation in various ways, and abdicate their political power of superior numbers.  And this process is done with sexual identity.  

 

In 2004, when war against gay civil liberties was waged as a wedge to motivate a coalition of conservatives to defeat John Kerry, I recall one of the rallying points was that marriage of gays would cause a drop in the population.  The point is almost too stupid to be believed, but the purpose for the assault on reason with this bit of nonsense is the point.  Actual facts of nature stood in the way of the emotional lever that this issue sought to use to hold its coalition together.  It was necessary for a majority of voters to “believe” a falsehood rather than rely on the fact, and the reasonable approach to the fact, with which lies the social just result.  In other words, the natural capacity of humans to think and reason must be subverted, and supplanted to produce the unnatural, unreasonable result of denying liberty to free members of a free society.

 

The DNC has failed us in this particular way.  We are too afflicted with superstition and unreason, which begat ignorance, which begat hate, which begat social instability.  Outside of those who would seek social justice by progressive means, but are afflicted with the viral ignorance of superstition, would be the minority wasteland of marginalization, and defeat.  The act of leaving stupid progressives for a smaller group within a system that is propelled by power is a dead end.  The options are to take over the entire system by revolution, which is not possible, or to re-educate and reconstruct the progressive apparatus.  The solution is to immunize the reasoning element from the insidious, virulent contamination of the unreason which comes from those who place belief over facts.  

 

Defaulting to a lower order of social conscience which says fiscal conservatism is the highest ethical standard is not the answer for anyone who is not organically sprung from the largest demographic.  Ups and downs occur in the course of human events, and when those downs occur, the dominant culture will come looking to you to excise as a devotional act to the god of fiscal conservatism.  It has always been thus.  Thus it will always be unless and until facts and reasonable processes are placed permanently above superstition.  

 

So to all of my disaffected progressives who seek to leave the Democratic party, I implore you to do the reasonable thing.  The G.O.P. has nothing but tax cuts and a possible burning at the stake for you.  There are no rest stops between the camp of imperfect progressives and whatever you think is out there among the believing, superstitious non thinkers.  Social justice exists within reason and the reasonable.  Stay and reason with us.  All superstition dies eventually.  Even Sarah Palin can see that the world is not flat.  Several hundred years ago, she would surely have said otherwise. 

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Sorry Bill, no can do (and it's not due to a lack of trying).

You said that "the DNC and the RNC are more alike than they are different". My problem is that I see no difference at all. Both lie, both cheat and both will screw you over.

I'm going to do what I said I would do in my blog from today... I'm going to support specific LGBTQ candidates, regardless of party affiliation.

If there is only one LGBTQ friendly candidate in a given race, and they are the Left Handed, Purple Haired, Weirdo Party candidate, I'm still going to support them with both my money and resources.

Voting for quasi-progressive, Democratic “promise whores” only guarantees that there will never be change.
I would never leave the Dems, but why is it the minute they're in power they get a gun and the intense desire to use it on their own feet?
Good analysis, Bill.
You may be right. And frankly, your solution is reasonable. We can all work with that. Stay as loud as ever in your fight. Whether you're in or you're out, so to speak, social justice depends on your staying engaged with the effort.
I think the problem is less those of us who would leave the Dem Party, and more those who would not.

But I agree with many of your other points here. Certainly, organized religion is a curse on humanity. However, you say;

"Religion, and even superstition, if you take the position that they are different, are fine things, as long as they do not supplant the value of facts and the scientific process."

They are NOT "fine things" simply because, by their very nature, they DO "supplant the value of facts and the scientific process". That is what they are, not merely what they do; they ARE a supplanting of the value of facts and the scientific process.

Beyond that, I think we should be careful about conflating the Dem Party with "Progressives". I think it is clear at this point that the Dem Party is not the synonymous with progressive.

RATED
I agree with you completely, Rick. But when I said, "they are fine things", I was being delicate. I might put it another way. My neighbor's feces is "a fine thing", but I would prefer that it stay off of my porch.
Well, Bill, part of the problem is "being delicate" instead of saying it like it is.

You don't want your neighbor's shit on your porch because it is not a fine thing, so just say so. We need to start calling out religion for what it is; a problem of major proportion.
Rick:

I said "progressives stay". By that I was making a distinction between progressives and Democrats. I want progressives to stay in the party, but I am not asking those who do not reason to stay. I am not asking those who worship the god of fiscal conservatism to stay. I was not conflating the two. I was making a distinction.
Well, asking progressives to stay in a Party that neutralizes them seems counterproductive to me.
Science is based upon reason. Religion is based upon faith. In his book, “The Celestine Prophesy”, James Redfield attempts to show how both can peacefully coexist in an enlightened world. Spirituality and Reason need not be mutually exclusive. We have the capacity to embrace both.
I agree with you again, Rick. But I make more than a few posts about religion and reason. I am also not seen as the most soft spoken guy. I have to moderate my tone for effect sometimes, or else it would just come across as shouting. I think we agree completely in essence, and differ with regard to style, which is cool. The hope is that this will be an open conversation. A moderate tone may give me the opportunity to more fully engage throught, rather than lobbing one Molotov Cocktail and ending there.
Bill, the Democrats have realized that independents get them elected. There's very little interest in progressives except in 'et out the vote" and grass roots organizing. As for the progressive agenda, it's eff you.
Spin Doc,

I also think we should be careful about conflating organized religion with "spirituality".
I agree Spin Doctor. Religion and reason can both exist within the same world. Salt water fish and fresh water fish exist within the same world too. But they exist in different environments. The problems arise when we try to mix the two.
I agree Rick. I made no mention of "spirituality". I steal from Einstein who said he believes in "the God of Spinoza". That's good enough for me. That suits my definition of spirituality while leaves me outside of the "religious". Incidentally, my "belief" is that Jesus was more into reason than a cult of personality. The gospels did that.
Okay, Bill,

I'll just say, if we're on the same page (and I also think we are), I'm more than comfortable lobbing the bombs of direct-speak for you so you can maintain a more "politically correct" posture.

But, on a societal level, maintaining the fallacy that religion is not a problem, is a problem
OES:

Superstition is a crutch. When I was playing baseball I never stepped on a chalk line, and I "did not believe" in superstition. As I got older and began to apply more discipline to real reason, and attempted to keep my mental garden free of the weeds that blow seeds all thru our culture, I began to see that once "innocuous" practice for what it was. It is the seed of unreason. Progressivism can be more reasonable if not perfectly reasonable. We just need a discipline for clear thinking and just action.
Rick, I said religion is a problem. I just said it subtly. Look at it this way, Rick. I said it. I spoke against Christianity. I made a video about Christ and the resurrection idea and completely challenged it. I do it fairly regularly. Do think taking a stand against the "Christ as Deity" position is "politically correct"? Where will I find posts on OS that challenge the most widely held view of religion on the planet more than I have? "Politically correct"? Not even close.
I don't know what I'm going to do, I'm so disgusted by the Democrats. I don't know if I can support them any longer. Everywhere I go, from the supermarket to the library, I hear the same thing muttered by Americans everywhere: "we need a third party".

So long as we stick our heads in the sand and do what they think we're going to do which is continue to contribute and vote for them, even while they sell our rights down the river, they will continue to pander to the corporate donors.

that's it you know. it's the money. and we Americans can't compete with that.

we cannot continue to support a party that doesn't support us ...hoping that maybe, just maybe they might maybe sort of do something that will benefit the majority.

they should be afraid these next two three four years. they should all be very very afraid because BOTH sides, conservatives and progressives are disgusted with their parties. maybe we can come up with a 3rd party that is about intelligence and bettering America, not idiotic slogans, hyperbole and broken promises.

I can promise you if they pass this healthcare bill as it stands now, I will leave the party and work for a third party candidate.
In music, there are notes and there are intervals between notes. There are different notes played, and at different dynamic levels. The infinite variability of those elements make for different compositions. I could drop a wrecking ball on a piano and play the same series of notes, for the same duration, and end up saying only one thing forever. Or I can play it like a piano with infinite variability. In addition to that, you can play your own composition on your own piano. But to say that the keyboard has to be slammed the same way all the time, forever, amen. Well, that sounds kind of religiously orthodox to me.
A third party, fourth, or 17th party will all be the same. It will be made of believers and not thinkers unless we place thinking over belief. The only difference about that 3rd thru 17th party is they will be progressively weaker. As they get weaker, they will form coalitions, tribes. Those tribes will be focused on power and not reason. And we will be back to chasing ghosts, prejudices, and superstition. The thing to do is fix the ship. Quitting is dying.
I don't think we are quitting, Bill. I think we are FINALLY trying to find an alternate way around the brick wall we have been running into for so long.

You preface is correct only if anyone in the DNC, and “progressive” segment of the party would listen. They won’t, however, so talking to them more doesn’t do any good if the dilholes are deaf!
@ Bill & Rick

Your feedback is well taken. The point I was trying to make is that religions are institution oriented, while spirituality is far less constraining.
perhaps you're right because that's the system we have. but for a time, however brief, they will be OURS, hoping to impress us, hoping to grow.

that's a chance to take as far as i'm concerned. I am not young. when I vote, I vote for my interests but also for the interests of my children, your children, my grandchildren and their children to come. I want REAL change.

perhaps you're right. we'll never know though if we don't try. most americans do not vote because they believe it's futile. and I have come to believe that this is precisely what both parties want, a disinterested, disengaged populous and two parties that win by bare margins.
Sarah Palin may see the world is not flat, but she still (professes) to believe that it's onlu about 6600 years old.

I'm pretty sure GLBT people who are (rightfully) upset with the Democrats are not going to go with GOP.

I think what most GLBT people are pissed about is we thought we WERE voting for facts before lies and reason ahead of bigotry and fear.

How big of a majority do we have to have before the bigots and morons lose their grip on power?
I'm with you 100% Safe Bet. You probably realized that you inspired this. I was going to send you a PM, but you were the first to comment anyway. Thank you for that. Like I said earlier, your approach is fully reasonable. Keep that up and we will get there eventually.
I am a secular humanist (actually, I despise labels but in case anyone needs one to hang on me...) who finds the following statement very interesting: "Faith is not the enemy of reason; fear is." That's from Al Gore's 2006 book "Assault on Reason." Let's for the moment accept his premise; I have my doubts about faith but fear most certainly is reason's foe. The discouraging thing about the Democrats (which has been my party because, well, the alternative has been insupportable for some time) is that fear drives their decisions: fear of losing, fear of failure, fear of getting labeled as (gasp) "liberal"or fear of somehow not reaching or reflecting "the American people." Add to that fear of offending, fear of fighting, fear of disagreeing, fear of talk show hosts, fear of f-cking up, which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy...it's laughable. I'm as flexible as the next person and I'm willing to listen to arguments from all quarters if they're reasonable. But you have to stand for something at some point and the Democrats seem to be afraid these days of choosing the wrong thing to stand for. At this point, I'd settle for change I can sort of believe in.
Great question Cobalt-ic. I tried to address that point at the outset. It is not the game plan. It is the game.

Like Rick said, unreason is the problem. We share the same sort of unreason with the GOP. Western civilization is full of it, and the United States is unreason central. Our civic processes are lousy with belief. Our economic systems are lousy with belief. George H.W. Bush called Reaganomics "voodoo economics." He was right. But he lost out to the voodoo. Now we are trying to undo the voodoo. While some are trying to re-do the voodoo. Some seek a return to trickle down economics which is belief based. What we need to do is un-do the voodoo. The voodoo is doo-doo.
Big subject to cover, Bill, but you did an admirable job.

"Americans allow ancient religious practices to contaminate their rational processes." I've been writing about that for as long as I've been blogging. Religion is killing us... literally.

Safe Bet, if you vote for GLBTQ candidates regardless of affiliation, not much will change. You won't find any Republicans that qualify.

I'm fed up with the Dems but I haven't seen a reasonable replacement.
Bill,

"The only difference about that 3rd thru 17th party is they will be progressively weaker"

Here in Canada we've seen this first hand, and not only do the parties get weaker the country does as well.

We have a multitude of parties and what has happened is that certain parties become regional powers (you said “tribe” and that’s pretty close) and as a result our ability to accomplish anything meaningful at a national level is practically non-existent.
"Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." - Jon Stewart