The Conscience
-François Chifflart (1825-1901)
“A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: Inside of me there are two dogs. One dog is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time. When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment and replied, the one I feed the most.”
-George Bernard Shaw
(Native American, unknown)
“The roots of violence: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, Politics without principles.”
(Young India, 22 October 2 1925)
-Monhandas K. Gandhi
“Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”
-Leo Tolstoy
It seems to me that, if there were a “God”, or is a god, that it would either not want us to know of its existence, or would not want us to have a conscience. The are three dominant views of “God.” “God” does exist. “God” may exist. And the third, god does not exist. In my life, I have moved from the first category to the second. I don’t “believe” that the first or the third are possible, even with conceding the definition of “God” as westerners do. If “God” does exist, I suspect the flaw is in understanding “God’s” essence. That is where the issue is tabled for me.
Conversely, while science does not recognize, nor has it been able to measure conscience, I do “believe” that conscience exists. This is not generally disputed. The definitions of, and functions of conscience tend to agree over time, and across cultures. Conscience is not self serving, and therefore avoids suspicion, where various definitions of “God” can be profoundly self serving, and highly suspicious. An omniscient and omnipotent “God” supplants the need for conscience entirely. Therefore “God” supplants the need for self. Therefore, the self is heretical. Therefore, acting “in good conscience” is heretical.
I’ve been to Arizona many times. I know it exists. I never really had a doubt about this, and I have never heard one expressed. Many of “us” have been to Arizona, and I doubt any of “us” doubt its existence. Lots of “them” come to Arizona because they believe it, and America, the “United States”, to exist. To the chagrin of many, “they” keep finding it, Arizona, geographically, so a good case for its existence can be made. In New York we have a goddess of liberty standing out in New York Harbor on Liberty Island. I’ve been to it. I’ve gone up in it. I believe it to exist. Its existence is generally not disputed. Millions have borne personal witness to it, as I have. It was a gift to the United States from the people of France, and most specifically some French dude who spent years creating it. (Frederic Auguste Bartholdi) Thanks, dude.
This particular goddess represents liberty, and welcoming the “huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” The “wretched refuse” of other “teeming shores...” One caveat though. That shore had better not be the banks of the Rio Grande, or none of that sweet smelling shit applies. Just ask Arizona. “We” would really like it if you would self deport. Just ask Mitt Romney. If you wont “self deport, Mr. Obama will toss you over the border like a three pointer from way downtown. Bang! He’s the reigning national champion and record holder of deportation.
Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court struck down three portions of Arizona’s immigration law, but upheld a fourth. The portion that remains is what is commonly referred to as the “show me your papers” provision which allowed police officers to step into a function previously only done by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and for states to join with the federal government, or compete with, in making immigration policy. This is a “B.F.D.” as our V.P. Joe Biden would say. This provision is subject to further review because it has not actually been implemented yet. Thank goodness for small favors.
So like Neil Diamond once said, “they’re coming to America...” We seem to have a starkly different view of that fact these days. “Give us your huddle masses...”? Right. Today’s America says, the masses are asses. “I am the way, the truth, and the light.” I don’t care what that broad in the sheet standing in the harbor says. The U.S. Supreme Court says, whether your masses are migrating, or metastasizing, they are not “our” problem. All of that lamp lifting “beside the golden door” stuff is America’s pre-existing condition, and we are none to fond of those these days.
So, does “God” exist? Could be. I certainly can’t say otherwise. Does Arizona exist. Pretty sure about that. I’ve been there. Does the Statue of Liberty exist? Uh huh. Do “United States” exist? That is a matter for further review.
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koshersalaami
Ben Sen
Frank Apisa
Kerry Lauerman
Boanerges1
Cap'n Parrotdead
Salon.com
Comments
It's dark reading inside a dog.
Conscience is a divine inner:
`
Probe
as in a:`
`
Good inner:
`
Prick.
Conscience:
`
It Awakens.
`
Conscience:
Listen to 'it'
or
Divine may go away.
Muse no inform you.
Me/you be depraved.
`
I no mean Bill Beck.
Ya stretch a`Mind.
You not a `Stench.
`
I call White House.
The Pastry Chef?
He seems nice.
`
No smoke a corn-cob pipe in a White House backyard Garden. I cigar smell is worst than corn-cob silk in a pipe. On the streets of DC's K- Street run with pipe.
`
Use iron plumber pipe?
Call Plumber to fix stuff.
Plumber clean outhouse.
`
In `Nam DC drafted 'grunts'
(still) had no flush indoor
Spring.
`
Some plutocrats wobble dizzy in DC.
They got two-groundhogs in pockets?
They wear pink shaw at congressional?
Picnic.
Maybe politico eat puffy-cheese-twist?
I see orange lips and no real facial grin.
They pretend cheese-puff is goat tale.
`
huh
`
I go reread the
cc
Diamond Sutra
`
I just a human.
You Human too.
No jog in DC dung.
`
I hope this is fun
`
Jabber-Wacky.
I dont see what the big deal is about carrying ID. If you are legally residing or visitng on a visa, you should have nothing to hide or be nervous about.
I dont see what the big deal is about carrying ID. If you are legally residing or visitng on a visa, you should have nothing to hide or be nervous about.
It means a whole lot more though when a state requires you co carry I.D. They don't give a fat rats ass if you are Lori's boyfriend. They want to have preeminence over you. Carrying an I.D. is a convenience. Being required to carry one makes you a subject to a higher authority. Americans don't seem to get that these days.
I loved the Gandhi and Shaw quotes.
There are 10 million mexicans living in this country illegally. This wouldn't be a problem if the unemployment rate wasnt more than 10 million.
I have nothing against mexicans. But I'd like to see unemployed black youth get jobs - their unemployment rate is like 70%. I betcha the unemployment rate for mexicans in america is closer to zero.
Poppie Iceland, you have always been subject to being asked for I.D. in this country. I did it on thousands of occasions as a cop. That is not the same as requiring someone to have it. There is a philosophical distinction for which this country once stood. Now, since our principles have devolved from what they once were, this view is mutating too.
I see that "physical examination" and fear of disease bit as kind of a silly excuse. We are not fearing disease any less, and certainly not subject to it any more than we once were. If we needed labor, or if we were not receiving immigrants who did not match the reigning demographic in this country which is declining, this would not be an issue. Disease did not wipe us out before and medicine is better than it once was.
Oh yeah, that education stuff is deadly too. We gotta cut that out ASAP!
That said, I can foresee a time in the near future when some kind of internal passport -- like those once issued in the Soviet Union -- will be needed in both our countries. A sad day, should it come to pass.
People will come for jobs. As long as it is in people's interests to hire illegals, they will; and as long as they do, illegals will come. You want to accomplish something? Make it illegal to hire illegals so that the penalties apply not primarily to those seeking a better life but to those who attract them. Those hiring illegals are too powerful, though; they want cheap labor and to have their cake and eat it. They can complain about illegals and profit from them while taking none of the risks. The problem will mostly go away when those most worried about it become willing to take on those who profit most from it. Until that happens, build all the fences you want and search everyone in Arizona. Won't do much good.
My advice. Learn Spanish. We are one of the few cultures that doesn't teach languages at a young age. Why? Cultural pride? That's just stupid. I think difference in language perpetuates false barriers. But then Americans didn't like my ancestors either. :p~~ I'm here fuckers, and we're interbreeding with you, and ARE you mwwhhahahhhahhahahahh
People will commonly say that one must not compare anything to Nazi Germany. While I agree the comparisons should be rare, I disagree about forbidding all comparison. For example, I think we bear many, many similarities to 1930's Germany here, and the conditions abroad are similar. Understanding the pressures can help to predict the possible outcomes. This is not to say that genocide is the likely result, but economic pressures in Europe and making various aspects of lives illegal for various groups of people here is the pattern that was used in 1930's Germany. The comparisons are important, albeit not yet to the same degree.
The thing - for me anyway - is not immigration, it's Illegal immigration. Poppi didn't go on into her reasoning here like she did on another's blog, but she has valid points.
Shifting the responsibility onto those who actually deserve it - those who employ those who are illegal would be the ideal.
But as Kosh points out, that ain't gonna happen either.
Rated for we're going to bleed out before a medic gets here.
Drive Licenses have pictures, but are not required. Student I.D.'s have pictures, but are not required. Citizenship identification is an entirely new level. Mind you, I am not (I have issue with the term "illegal" also) an alien, nor am I undocumented. I was ben here. This is not my issue more than it is for anyone else. But consider your question. If it is no different, why do you think it is an issue at the highest level of courts? Even this right wing court stuck down 3 of the 4 provisions of the Arizona law.
Until this court case, only the federal government could make immigration law. Now, to some small degree which still may be reviewed later, states can individually set immigration policy. This has potential to be a rather big deal IF ONLY for the massive change that the U.S. will undergo. This could make us very much more like Europe in the ways that made Europe less stable than the U.S. throughout the past two centuries. It goes way beyond hiring "illegals", etc.
And raise you this one : when did the process of immigration become a process? And why? When did it stop becoming alright to simply walk across the (north or south) border and go to work and live in peace forever and ever amen? And why?
Why do we have the difference between people who follow the process, and those who don't? And why is one way 'right' and the other not? My thoughts on the answers for these questions?
Numbers. Great numbers.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point (probably) but all I can see is that A) we have immigrants here who follow the process and are proud to do so successfully, and B) we have immigrants here who want all of the benefits without any of the effort expended.
And C) we have folks like myself (and too many others who are much worse off, at least I'm reasonably healthy, if past the educational issue) who were born citizens but don't merit the same resources (assistance) available to those who don't care to become citizens (at least that's my assumption when they can't be bothered to follow the process that will let them do so).
I can't keep up with this, it's not making sense to me, maybe I'm just too tired or stupid to grasp the finer points. All I know is the US is seriously wounded in so many ways that it's approaching mortal, and all any of us seem to be able to do is stand arguing over the cooling almost-corpse :(.
That aside, the Arizona law where you can be asked for your papers is the end result of a pile of failures of immigration law. Long ago there should have been a more expansive temporary worker program to accommodate folks seeking work and employers seeking folks who were willing to do crappy jobs for low pay. That should have been coupled with some sort of eased immigration or naturalization path for longer term temps. With more accommodating policies in place it's subsequently easier and cheaper to enforce the stricter controls against illegal immigration.
I don't believe in a god, and I do believe in conscience. I'm not sure how I have done a disservice to those who feel like WE do.
The people who will and are suffering ARE AMERICANS! They happen to be of Hispanic origin, who, by the way, were there before America ever was (same for California and Texas). If I were stopped for no GOOD reason (besides my crappy car and brown skin is all you need to get pulled over in Phoenix) I would be beyond pissed off. But that will never happen to me because I am white and over 50. No threat to anybody (so they think!)
Two: Sherriff Joe Arpio and his notorious "Tent City Prison" He is famous for saying, "If you don't like my jail, don't commit a crime in my county." Sounds good huh? Not for the prisoners (half are in for DUIs) who live in tents, while the guards are in an air conditioned bubble. The State of Arizona has paid out multi-million dollar law suits against him for neglect (prisons dying without medical care, or being beaten to death with the steel re-bar they use to hold down the tents). They get two meals a day, with lunch being a baloney sandwich and a cup of kool-aide.
If you want to watch time go backward, keep watching Arizona, it's damn near the Middle-Ages there now.
Chris Rock made this movie about running for President. I can't recall the name. The movie was not that good, but it had one memorable, and hilarious part. His conservative GOP candidate had a tag line that went, "God bless America...and no place else." I think that is a great bit of satire because it illuminates something very real. The American Exceptionalism junkies mean this. Also, David Bowie has a song titled, "I'm Afraid of Americans." One of the lines within it states, "God is an American."
the rest is easy....having to prove i'm a citizen doesn't bother me at all....
don't care about any god,he leaves me alone,i'll leave him alone....
My view is that these people are largely Indian, and after all our ancestors were the original illegal immigrants (well, yours were involuntary immigrants!) And Arizona et al can spasm all they want, but demographics seem to indicate the Indians are taking the continent back. Hard to work up a *moral* objection to this process, and it doesn't matter anyway because it looks inevitable. Indeed, American schools should teach Spanish.
Thank you for saying that. I wanted to, but I preferred that someone else say that. it wont be heard if I say it because what I say gets filtered thru some sort of sensitivity filter. Your point is entirely accurate. This immigration view in the modern sense is entirely arbitrary. King George actually forbade his people from going west of the Appalachians. They did, of course, which was essentially "illegal" emigration. Also, like you said, the people were already in place on the continent. This is like having a restrictive immigration policy for water in the Pacific and Atlantic basins. You may succeed in moving water, but it fowls back around you, under you, and over you into the basin. It belongs there.
And the third, god does not exist. In my life, I have moved from the first category to the second. I don’t “believe” that the first or the third are possible,
Sorry if I misread you.
I put very little stock in the word "believe." I used it in quotes in the section that you mentioned. I can state the notion differently. I know that "God" as he is generally perceived, and discussed in the Bible does not exist. I am quite certain of that. I ever think I can prove that. I think physics explains how "God" as described is not possible. I "believe" that some other concept of god is possible. And finally, I "believe" that the knowledge that god does not exist is also not possible. At that point it is a choice, which may also be accurate, but our collective knowledge of the universe is not such that it can state conclusively that god in any form cannot possibly exist.
I also refer to "God" and god. "God" refers to the exclusive, orthodox view of "The" deity. The god, and Christopher Hitchens referred to it is open, inclusive, and may be all of the blades of grass, or shrimp and gorillas, or whatever. Emerson called it the collective conscience of all things that live and have ever lived. That's kind of where I am with it...if it even exists.
As far as increases in disease...its happening because illegals are not screened for tuberculosis, hepatitis etc. They are not vaccinated against childhood diseases. Polio and measles are back. TB is now drug resistant. hospitals have to eat the cost of this care, then they lose money and have to let workers go. Its a downward spiral.
A country can only hold so many people, provide so many jobs, so much health care, housing etc. You can only take in so many strays, sooner or later you reach a tipping point and everyone is affected.
Im sorry if people dont want to go through the process legally, but it should not be encouraged to come to the US or any country illegally.
There's a group in Iceland called "without borders" they believe that getting rid of borders would make everything nice and harmonious because we should all love each other, blah blah blah. I dont think these kids have ever left their little village.
Can you imagine the social and economic chaos that would create? There are too many people on the planet to start with. What would you do if this happened in the US?? Could the US support the majority of the African continent, Southeast Asia or Central and South America "Coming to America" It would be anarchy!
Some may see this response as racist. It isn't. Here are a few facts for you. White Europeans brought smallpox to this continent. The U.S. Army used it as a weapon. Europeans had a relative resistance to it from living with cattle in Europe for centuries. And yes, I mean living with. Many had them in their homes. Their domiciles. Communicable diseases are not specific to, or invented by Latinos. It happens. It has happened before and it will happen again. This selective finger pointing about disease and groups of people is disgusting. This has more to do with socio-economics than anything. You'll never quarantine all disease by leaving "them" out. It won't work that way.