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JANUARY 2, 2009 5:17PM

Dr. Dach What evidence for antidepressants and suicide risk?

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ontact: Sonja Mak
s.mak@update.europe.at
43-140-557-340
European College of Neuropsychopharmacology

Antidepressants in suicide prevention
Presented at the 21st Congress of the European College of Neuropsychopharmacology 2008, Barcelona, Spain


Antidepressants and suicide risk: what is the evidence?

In numerous short-term randomized clinical trials (RCTs) of antidepressants for depression in children and adolescents (<19 years), antidepressants are found to be associated with a slightly higher proportion (0.7%) of patients reporting suicidal ideation or a suicide attempt than control patients receiving placebo (Bridge et al., 2007). It is important to note that there are no completed suicides in these studies. Adults treated with SSRI antidepressants in randomized clinical trials have a similar risk of either non-fatal self harm or suicidal thoughts than those on placebo (Gunnell et al., 2005 & 2006). It is undisputable that at least among children and adolescents, antidepressants have some potential of causing harm to a small subgroup of vulnerable patients, at least in the beginning of treatment. However, there are several reasons why such trials are likely to create a distorted view of the total balance of benefits and harms of antidepressants:


First, short-term clinical trials are designed to produce statistical evidence of efficacy for regulatory purposes, and their duration is only as long as necessary to produce this evidence. Thus, the trial ends when the drug response has evolved. During the trial patients spend most of their weeks with possible side effects, but not yet full antidepressant response. With regard to suicidal behaviour, the benefits come with the response, gradually over time.


Second, for ethical reasons, subjects who are severely suicidal at the time of evaluation for the trial must be excluded, since they might receive placebo. This changes the balance between observed negative and positive effects with regard to suicidal behaviour in these trials. Worsening of mild pre-existing or newly emerging suicidal behaviour can be usually detected. However, as most severely suicidal patients must be excluded before a trial starts, it remains unknown whether they would benefit from the active treatment. As naturalistic studies do suggest such improvement, this bias is not merely hypothetical. Antidepressant trials have not been designed to investigate suicidal behaviour, and they cannot provide unbiased information on their overall effects related to it.


Third, factors resulting in short-term suicidal ideation, or even less severe suicide attempts do not necessarily result in significantly increased risk for completed suicide, as mental disorders and their symptoms related to completed suicides are usually more severe. There is no evidence of increased rates completed suicides in antidepressant trials (Khan et al, 2003).


Fourth, clinical trials do not reflect usual treatment. In usual care, the attending doctor can promptly discontinue antidepressants that involve intolerable side-effects, adjust dosage, and switch and combine agents. Antidepressants are only part of treatment, which should always include a trustful relationship between the doctor and the patient, with necessary support and psychosocial treatments.

The most important test for the role of antidepressants in suicide prevention is real life: In contrast to these randomized clinical trials, observational studies of antidepressant treatment, which typically include abundantly highly suicidal patients, demonstrate a marked alleviation of suicidal behaviour in the vast majority of patients. In clinical practice, the benefits of treatment are seen over time as the drug response consolidates. Patient population studies of adolescents report lower rates of suicide attempts and of adults both attempts and completions over time as treatment continues (Valuck et al., 2004; Jick et al., 2004; Simon et al., 2007; Sokero et al., 2006; Simon et al., 2006).

In many western countries (e.g. Korkeila et al., 2007), increasing use of antidepressants on the national and regional level expectedly correlates with declining suicide mortality. Of course, such ecological studies do not prove that antidepressants have caused the observed decline in suicides, but nevertheless, they are consistent with a positive or at worst, neutral net effect on suicides. Most importantly, there is no evidence for increased national suicide rates due to increased use of antidepressants.

Antidepressants reduce the severity, and the time a patient spends in a depressive state, which are credible factors in reducing the risk for suicidal acts.

Clinical implications


Depression is the most important single factor predisposing to suicide, and more than half of all subjects completing suicide are known to have suffered from depression. Thus, any treatment that is widely available, safe and efficacious in alleviating depression is plausible for purposes of suicide prevention.


Register-based and observational studies have provided individual-level information on depressed subjects on and off antidepressants in real life conditions: Compared to randomized clinical trials these studies give a more realistic account of risk of suicidal behaviour, and suggest antidepressants to be beneficial for suicide prevention.


While antidepressants likely have a potential for provoking suicidal behaviour in some vulnerable individuals in the early phases of treatment, from a public health perspective, the epidemiologically much more important effect of antidepressants is to alleviate depression and thus reduce the risk of suicide.

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I don't understand your insistence on science and evidence-based medicine, Bart. Tom Cruise has told you time and time again that antidepressant medications are the tools of Xenu, the galactic overlord, and that vitamins are all you need to cure depression. What part of that do you, Matt Lauer, Brooke Shields, the world's medicine regulatory agencies and the medical establishment not get?
Dr. D proudly reports on his 25 years as an interventional radiologist and rightfully so. Has anyone ever asked him whether he finds it a teensy bit ironic that he spent 25 years injecting people with drugs, pushing wires and catheters into them, filling them full of radio-opaque dye and subjecting them to large doses of radiation, all on a daily basis? Until he was forced to retire by disability, he seems to have had no complaints about the daily use of drugs , wires, and radiation.
You crack me up, Man Talk Now. Very dry.
Thanks Black Bart, you are a light in the darkness!
I did like Tom Cruise in "Risky Business". That was the last movie I liked him in.
Amy, it's may be surprising to you, but I agree. Thank you for your comment.
Looks like Dr. Dach has deleted some of my comments on his post about SSRIs. I'm sorry he can't stand the pure light of reason.
I run some errands and all hell breaks loose. :) Maybe I'll check and see if my comments are still there. Or maybe not.
Thanks for this elegant summary. I think the last paragraph is especially important to remember when people start frettin' about "OMG all the people on antidepressants!"
My comments have been deleted by Jeff andI've been banned from posting in his blog. Forgive me for asking scientific questions about his statements. Guess respectful dissent is not allowed in Dach's world.

Black Bart, I'm in your corner.
Thanks teendoc, it feels good to have someone with your credentials backing me up. Hopefully, Jeffrey will come around and respond. I am willing to listen if he is. Censorship is never the way to handle disagreement.
Amen, Amen. Bart, I am proud of you. I have been off caring for my new dog. I will have to read some more. I must have missed a little but I think i know what has happened.
Thanks for this, Bart.
yeah, trying reading all this on the info packet for the drugs you're about to give your kid for depression.
It's like, well if you don't give it to him he might, if you do give it to him he might..but at least you can say you tried. Doesn't actually give one the warm fuzzies at night.
That and the constantly wondering if this is the day you're going to come home to late on the wrong side of the bottle.
Thanks for sharing! I'd love to know where to post that everyone else is talking about so I can give my 2 cents.
That post was closed for comments by Dr. Dach.
The original post was here: http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=72582

Some of the deleted comments (really a small fraction) are here: http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=73707
He erased my comment where all I did was cut and paste his degree off his CV. Haven't gone back since.
I can say this. Antidepressant medications saved my life. I'm not saying that the same thing could not have been done by an alternative medicine, but I speak FIRST HAND as a PTSD, SEVERE Anxiety Disorder sufferer and Clinical Depression sufferer that no antidepressant ever made me feel like offing myself. I believe that people that have those feelings will have them regardless. All I know is pre-medications, I wasn't functioning, after many, many a combination of meds my life is "normal" again. Whatever that is...Not arguing against the other side, just making a first hand argument for one side.
Dr. Dach asked me the following in his post and deleted my answer.

BB - "Since 1988, 68 million Americans have used Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft. Using a most conservative excess suicide rate, at least 21 thousand avoidable suicides may have been induced, without any warnings to the victims or their families." Quoted from Graham Aldred in a Letter dated 27 April 2004 to US Representatives, Joe Barton, and James Greenwood

One one hand we have 21,000 SSRI inducd deaths, and on the other hand we have BB's assertion of lives saved. How many lives were saved BB? What is the number? Is it more or less than 21,000 drug induced deaths?

I will follow with my answer.
Dr. Dach, suicide has accounted for over 6oo,ooo deaths since 1988. Proper treatment with antidepressants, cognitive behavioral therapy and or ECT might have helped these victims of depression from killing themselves.


Depression and Suicide
Louise B Andrew, MD, JD, Medical-Legal, Risk Management and Trial Consultant, Litigation Stress Counselor
Contributor Information and Disclosures

Updated: Jun 23, 2008

Introduction
Background
Depression is a potentially life-threatening mood disorder that affects up to 12% of the population, or approximately 17.6 million Americans each year. In addition to considerable pain and suffering that interfere with individual functioning, depression affects those who care about the ill person, sometimes destroying family relationships or work dynamics between the patient and others. The economic cost of depressive illness is estimated at $30-44 billion a year in the United States alone. The human cost cannot be overestimated.

As many as two thirds of the people with depression do not realize that they have a treatable illness and do not seek treatment. Persistent ignorance and misperceptions of the disease by the public, including many health providers, as a personal weakness or failing that can be willed or wished away leads to painful stigmatization and avoidance of the diagnosis by many of those affected.

Pathophysiology
The etiology of depression is multifactorial, but depression is thought to involve changes in receptor-neurotransmitter relationships in the limbic system. Serotonin and norepinephrine are the primary neurotransmitters involved but dopamine has also been related to depression.

A family history of depression is common. Bipolar disorder has a prominent depressive component but is a different clinical entity from depression. There is a possible defect on chromosome II or X, but current genetic research is inconclusive.

Frequency
United States
An estimated 11% of the US population will experience depression at some time. Suicide accounts for 32,000 deaths yearly in the US and is the 11th leading of cause of mortality.

Mortality/Morbidity
The morbidity of the depression is difficult to quantify. The lethality of depression, however, is measurable and is the result of completed suicide, which is the ninth leading reported cause of death in the United States.
In 2005, 1.4% of all deaths worldwide were attributed to suicide. The real number is unknown since underreporting is predictably significant. Suicide is estimated to be the eighth leading cause of death in all age ranges.
Almost all people who kill themselves intentionally have a diagnosable mental disorder with or without substance abuse, which in itself, is often a result of attempted self-treatment for the symptoms of depression. Approximately two thirds of individuals who complete suicide have seen a physician within a month of their death.
"Since 1988, 68 million Americans have used Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft. Using a most conservative excess suicide rate, at least 21 thousand avoidable suicides may have been induced, without any warnings to the victims or their families." Quoted from Graham Aldred in a Letter dated 27 April 2004 to US Representatives, Joe Barton, and James Greenwood

[I screwed up on Dr. Dach's blog when I raised the issue of conflict of interest; I think that's been resolved, by an apology from me, and it's not related to the following comment. This is the last time I'll post this disclaimer. That is, I hope it'll be the last time.]

On the quote above: Graham Aldred may be a fine researcher; I don't know. It's not my area, and I haven't read his papers (though I have read the letter Dr. Dach cites). Nevertheless there's a basic rule of thumb to follow when bringing scientific evidence into a discussion--if a result hasn't gone through peer review, it carries much less weight. What's peer review? It generally takes the form of submitting a paper describing one's results (including all the necessary background information) to a conference or journal to be evaluated by others you one's field. Experts, ideally, who are competent to judge the validity and value of one's work. This is basically why we trust scientific results to the extent we do, even in fields that we may not be experts in.

It's hard to see why a letter to two politicians, no matter how detailed, should be given any weight at all.
Thanks Rob, I didn't look at his sources. You make a great point as always.
BB: Good post, as a riposte to Dr. Duck's incessant quacking.

But further to Rob's caveat, I'd add an even finer point of caution. A presented paper (such as the one you cite) may or may not have undergone as rigorous a review process as a published paper in a scholarly, scientific journal. Depends on the forum (its legitimacy, stature) and the history of the investigation of the findings presented etc.

In general, in terms weight of evidence in descending order, it would be publication, presentation, "scholarly" books (as opposed to the junk pop books that Duck reviews on Amazon and then cites in his outpourings)......letters to politicians.....pieces on OS and comments such as this one ;-).

WOOF
That's a very funny ordering you give at the end, CCC, one I entirely agree with. :-)
Thank you, BB, for some common sense. It seems that Dr. Dach does not take kindly to any dissent in the ranks of the great unwashed. He prefers to delete or close comments, give a drubbing to those who ask reasonable questions and, in my case, simply ignore.

Like Greg, I can speak from experience. And, without medication (the kind and dosage of which was arrived at through painstaking trial and error - not a fun process, I assure you), I would not be able to live a "normal life." According to Dach, however, that's just my antidepressant "addiction" speaking (even though I'm not on an SSRI, but a variant). Well, unless I want to spend my life curled up in a ball in the closet, I'll continue to do what I need to do; and that involves medication.

What worries me is that there are many people who swallow the claims of people like Dr. Dach with little or no research or questioning. As Amy commented, Dr. Dach spent the bulk of his career as a radiologist; an admirable calling, but not one which I feel qualifies him as an expert in psychiatric issues.

Thanks for being a voice of reason.
Oh - forgot to mention that I've regarded his blog as nothing more than an elaborate advertising vehicle since he first arrived. Still do.
Sierra: "And, without medication (the kind and dosage of which was arrived at through painstaking trial and error - not a fun process, I assure you), I would not be able to live a "normal life.""

Amen sister. PAINStaking... Not continuing on to look for the proper combination for each person's body chemistry is to fail.
Dr. Dach's posts here on OS are indeed an advertising vehicle. For what, you might ask, since many of us can hardly drive to FL to visit his clinic? For his websites. On a per post basis, fully 24% of the references that Dr. Dach gives on OS point to one of his own websites. (This excludes those links that are also given in his bio and his comments.) Every time you click on one of Dr. Dach's websites, google ads pays him.
As someone who spent his life in the trenches of the pharmaceutical delivery system, I would have to concur with the basis Bart's post. Bart seems to have a firm grip on at least some of the clinical study reports and highlights one very significant fact. People who are depressed commit suicide. Unfortunately, for the most part doctors, scientists, nurses, pharmacists, and family members don't have a clue which one will do it next.

We can point to clinical studies all day, but they are actually, at this point in time, very infantile in individual applicability. We really don't have an advanced "scientific" knowledge of depression or antidepressant drugs. Read the monographs. You will find entries like "actions ... are presumed" or "has been hypothesized." The bottom line is not even the most advanced studies define what will happen when an individual takes any antidepressant. So then, how does your everyday family practitioners, who probably prescribe the bulk of these types of drugs, know which one will work for this patient. Or what will be the adverse effects for this patient?

This is the reason that there is room for alarmists, Tom Cruise, et. al., to use their notoriety to alarm the public. The system of prescribing antidepressants is really not ready for prime time. We seldom know prior to use what will be the result. For the most part there is no systematic of review of everyday use. In otherwords, most people taking these drugs are part of a non-controlled and under reported study. Perhaps with the development of a national healthcare system we could see a more systematic approach to the use of pharmaceutical for depression.
Perhaps this is a good post to bring up the untimely and tragic death of John Travolta's son Jett. Did Scientology have anything to do with his death? By this I mean, if he were ill and had seizures (as was mentioned in the piece I read), would not giving him treatment be irresponsible? I only bring this up since Mr. "Cruise" was brought up.
I am so glad to see this. I've yet to see one person advocating the stopping of ssris who doesn't push some other supplement that they themselves aren't selling.
Rebirth Unit: Thank you for offering your personal evidence.

I'm not a doctor, but any doctor worthy of the name knows that anti-depressants and therapy are the combination that produces the most results. Very often SSRIs are prescribed in the short term with the proviso that the patient also receive therapy.

From what I know, and again, I am not an expert wielding statistics or citations, many suicides occur shortly after a person starts taking anti-depressants for the simple reason that they are now energetic enough to actually follow through on what they have been contemplating for a long time. This is one of the many reasons why close monitoring is so important in the beginning, and also why most GPs are not the best practitioners to dispense psychiatric medicine.

A very close friend of my husband killed himself within a week of taking anti-depressants but he had been talking openly about suicide for years -- it was a case of crying wolf, but a tragedy of immense proportions for everyone who knew him.
Everyone, thank you for your comments. I have been out on the Chesapeake Bay fishing all day and catching nothing.

What is obvious is psychiatry and psychotropic medicines have a long way to go. Psychiatry cannot accurately diagnose mental illness much of the time and psychotropic medications fall short of curing anyone or being the best choice for all patients. That being said there is much focused attention being paid by very competent people to provide the best care and treatments in the service of mentally ill patients. No quackery is going on but science has obviously a long way to go to accurately diagnose and cure mental illness. My heart goes out to all who suffer from mental illness of any kind.
Good catch on the "m".
J L Davis. Google pays for both kinds, they call them "impressions" and "click throughs."

https://www.google.com/adsense/login/en_US/?sourceid=aso&subid=EN-ET-AS-ADSBY6&medium=link&gsessionid=IGhJ09BYbjPT7O3LmFSX0w
Umbrellakinesis, I appreciate your comment. My post here is a response to Jeff Dach's censorship of my reply to his post on discontinuing SSRIs. He is entitled to his opinion but as an MD I believe he needs to be careful making medical claims here on Open Salon. That is why I challenged him with this response.

I have invited Dr. Dach to reply here without censorship but he has so far not shown up. This is an open forum with room for many opinions. Sometimes people get questioned on the bullshit they post. I certainly have and learned from the experience.
UK, I believe that Dr. Dach should be more forthright with information in his posts and I think his journalism is sloppy at best, possibly deliberately deceptive. His censorious habits imply that he does not want a full and open discussion/disclosure on his blog. All of this diminishes greatly the value of the information he conveys.

His habit of surgically altering the flow of comments on his posts should be exposed for the purpose of giving readers a heads up when reading his posts.
Thank you for a well-written and concise article about this. I hope more people here discover this as well as your writings overall.
Well done, Bro. Excellent research. However, I am not a fan of the Medical profession, having fired at least 5 physicians, two of which were friends. In particular, I hate what i call the Legalized Drug Dealers of America and despise the idea of their advertising to the public. The bastards ought to be Nationalized and turned over to the Universities. One CEO said on TV he would love to see every man, woman and child on some drugs for life. They would be healthier. IOf dueling were legal I would challenge the sonofabitch immediately.

But that's just me. I must have written 25 articles about the Legalized Drug Dealers of America and Europe.

However, I do think you did a great job on this, BB.
PS BB.
If you are not using the two blondes on your logo banner right now, may I have them for a while?
as someone whose life changed after 2 days on prozac, I agree
This is heavy. Perhaps you should email me and explain.
ztv.jack.cameron@gmail.com

(Happy you found an atom, perhaps an atom-ette, of value in my post. Gracias.)