BOKO

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BOKO

BOKO
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Here for now, will leave when I'm done.

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OCTOBER 26, 2011 5:20PM

STAGNATION

Rate: 23 Flag

While Occupy Wall Street continues to grow, and attempts to find a coherent voice, we might wonder what happened to the recovery?  More than a year ago, analysts were predicting a solid rate of growth in most sectors of the American and core European states, but instead what we've seen is a continuation of high unemployment, slowly but steadily rising prices on key commodities, and a disturbing expansion in long term trends.  These last include the widening phenomenon of failing "healthy businesses," that is, businesses that entered the recession with relatively low debt burdens, and the erosion of wages and benefits throughout all sectors. 

What we're obviously experiencing--and nobody wants to seem to admit it--is simple stagnation.  Neither a second-dip recession, nor the big fall-off predicted by some believers in "long waves" have occurred.  Instead we are stuck in a holding pattern, with businesses, especially small and medium sized outfits, struggling under the burden of trying to make up for almost two years in lost sales and payments from clients, while at the same time attempting to rebuild productive capacity in a climate where everything from supply chains to real credit remain unstable or unavailable.  Both the World Bank and all the major ratings firms predict far slower than expected growth for at least the next couple of years, and the concerns about the Eurozone and the ability of leaders there to find and decide on a solution continue to drag down investments (never mind that the Dow is happy to see even a contingent deal go through, the Dow has never been tied to any particular version of "reality" other than its own).

The worst part of the current situation is that in real terms of growth what the major capitalist countries would have to be doing right now in order to make up for the enormous losses of the recession would be to produce at something like three or four times the rate of growth that we were experiencing before the slump, which was itself a considerable step backwards from the more productive economy of the 90's.  Even this optimal state of things would only make up for a small part of the true loss in value from the recession.  And besides, since the 90's large parts of business in America went into finance, insurance, marketing, real estate speculation and other unproductive activities.  The recession came at about the worst possible time, and the loss of value was even bigger due to the rigged composition of the economy.  Conservative estimates of lost value--which hover around the 12 to 15 trillion dollar mark--suggest that the current malaise could last for many years, perhaps even a decade.  Problems with rebuilding whole constellations of businesses in a climate where it's still hard to get real credit (and not the kind sold on the cheap for "restructuring" old debt) and problems with policy direction (including the continued pathological attachment to austerity) make the future seem much more troubling.

In short, there is no political will for further stimulus, and there is no reason to think that anything other than a massive expansion into some new area of productivity--something that would produce even greater results than the initial hi-tech boom--or the opening up of a big  new market--like the one-time liberalizing of the Chinese economy--would be enough to regain sufficient value to reverse the up and down trend of job losses, cost-cutting, and healthy failures.  In fact it's more likely that all these things will increase with time, as the recession revealed some awful pre-existing conditions in the global economy, none of which have been addressed by a global financial class set on continuing high unproductive profits in speculation at the expense of everything else.

The most disturbing of these revelations came in the immediate wake of the collapse of Lehman Brothers when it was discovered that the real rate of profit increase had been artificially pumped up for some time.  This is a fact that has gotten almost no attention in the subsequent media coverage of the economic crisis, either here or in Europe, but it is probably the single most important insight to take away from the collapse.  From about 2003 to 2008 overall corporate profits appeared to be skyrocketing, and markets responded accordingly.  This in spite of the fact that on the ground big companies were experiencing a tug and pull effect of globalization--something noted by economists like Anwar Shaikhh and commentators like John Ralston Saul, but almost never mentioned by the official economists of the system and its institutions, or the various mouthpieces for globalism in the popular media.

When a company expands rapidly into new markets, either through sales or production or both, and regardless of whether it finds local capital to cooperate with it, it goes through a period of temporary losses, sometimes very large losses incurred in retooling, retraining, relocating and readjusting to new supply chains and local sub-contracting for everything from basic supplies to new facilities construction.  These costs were often offset by taking out lines of credit from institutions that were more than happy to fuel the globalist trend so long as they made a good return.  And since lower labor and materials costs and simplified production and streamlined factory-to-store delivery systems seemed to offer a solid investment, there were very few companies turned down for the duration of the big global boom.  This really didn't get going until the mid 1990's, spurred on by China and the relaxing of a host of financial regulations to help offshore money as well as production.  Weird theories about "weightlessness" and "burden-free" organizations helped to hide the huge costs. 

All the interruptions meant that the real productive profits of many of these companies remained relatively minor or just plain flat throughout much of this period.  Even though the paper profits of these firms, which were rewarded by Wall Street for taking the offshoring route, went through the roof, the process exposed many of them to long-term debt problems and repeated attempts to find newer and ever cheaper locales for their operations.  The result was that the on-the-ground economy got further and further away from the financial representation, with more and more debt being built into the system at all levels.  Combined with the after-effects of a "corporate governance reform" movement that actually ended up consolidating more power and more money in the hands of finance, and the inability of many domestically tied businesses to perform at the same astounding rates as partially offshored ones, the wonderful experiment in globalisation quickly turned into a disaster. 

The long-term crisis trends in global capital--including especially the tendency of the rate of profit to fall--were exasperated by this movement, and the recovery, such as it is, continues to be expressed as little more than a period of extended stasis for most workers.  Already released by the end of the "cold war" logic and the massive arms expenditures it made possible, the effects of the crisis trends were amplified through the partially globalised system, which is now busy collapsing back into regional blocs of capital.  Meanwhile stock markets have fully recovered (their instability is a permanent feature, not just an after-shock of the recession), but the profits being made there can hardly be fed back into productivity without causing a general collapse again.  The abstract world of speculation and hedge maneuvers is, paradoxically, the safest place to be right now.  And a global financial elite thinks that's just fine.  For the rest of us, the "recovery" looks and feels an awful lot like more of the same...

 

 

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There's little bit of a contradiction here since Shaikh believes in long waves, but he doesn't think that what we're experiencing is a big dropoff so much as the beginning of an extreme drawn-out slump.
Oh cocomo you are so out of your league. Your heart I suspect is in the right place, but you know so little of what you're talking about it's embarrassing.

What analysts predicted a "solid growth rate in recovery" a year ago? Who for Christ's sake? I can't think of one--and if your come up with one be prepared to evaluate him in comparison to the legitimate analysts at the time.

What "counterproductive activites" in the 90's are you talking about? Dare I ask o'sage? Yes, that was when the credit default swaps were proliferating that brought the economy down--but if you know that why the fuck don't you say it instead of beating around the bush? Everybody else knows it--why don't you?

I get you as an intuitive who likes big words, but you gotta be kidding. You're about two or three years behind the news.
I think you have it exactly right. There are lots of things causing it: One reason is that multinational corporations based in the US that hire people overseas instead of the US and pay almost nothing in US taxes. Another is that higgh gas prices suck up money that could be spent for products. The disparity of wealth means that a small proportion of very rich people hang onto their money and take it out of circulation while the bottom half of society, which normally spends money, is steadily getting poorer and has less money to spend on products. The damage caused by the lack of regulations for the financial industry that led to disaster and chaos in that industry and the tremendous effect it now has on the housing market, with falling housing prices, has a great impact. The decision to give stimulus money to large corporations who send it to foreign workers overseas instead of giving stimulus money to smaller more local US companies tht could generate US products is a drain. Years of "lower taxes", which essentially mean not collecting enough tax money to pay for government budgets has casused job losses, interest payments, closures of public facilities that benefited local businesses associated with them is a problem. There are more reasons. Most of these things could have been prevented, but now they're here and we have to pay the piper for the misguided things we did in the past. We're going to have to lose the political catch-phrases and start doing practical fixes to get out of this.
I do not claim any economic expertise but I get the feeling that the main problem is the diversion of the flow of finance away from reality in stimulating production and wages and the dynamics of the market place into silly games of accumulating money in huge pools for playing theoretical games of assumed wealth which have nothing to do with sustaining the real values of a dynamic society. After all, money is not wealth, it is a lubricant that must flow through the real processes of living in a society that sustain it and produce the real wealth of a decent living for all participants. Money is merely a key that unlocks real wealth and those keys are now out of place and socially inactive and that is destroying society.
Ben Sen - Economic rates of growth were predicted at before crash levels or above up until about April; the market took a dive after additional labor data showed a slowdown, it dropped about 700 points until the middle of June when central banks started doling out funds again. Several programmes of lending later, stocks are still unstable and longterm forecasts look pretty grim. The debt ceiling debate was more an occasion for a correction than anything else. Also, it wasn't a single financial derivative that "brought the economy down," its fundamental basis was weak to begin with. I don't see how I'm behind the news, since the news is still predicting rosy rainbows and falling unemployment figures once we get over this little rough patch. What passes for analysis these days in official circles is beyond stupid.
Gary - While I agree that there has been an overall drain on government revenues due to steadily falling levies, loopholes, tax breaks (much of which went to paying the enormous up-front costs of globalisation), and the traditional election year bribe of the middle classes with one-off tax cuts, we have to start getting over the idea that the mechanism of producing government revenue is somehow the answer. Government may be the great leveling force, but right now it's in the hands of neoliberals who believe more in finance capital than productive capital, globalisation more than local wealth creation, and "free markets" more than reality. I don't think the solution lies in that direction. Not at least until some sort of major ideological rupture occurs in one or both the major parties.
Jan - I agree with your analysis that in recent decades there has been a giant diversion of certain types of capital away from productivity (I think that's one of the things I'm saying in the post), but I would add that money and capital are not exactly the same things. Money is one way of measuring capital and capital growth, but it's not the only form it takes and it's certainly not the only wealth available. In fact in modern economies most capital is either in the form of investment/credit, or in the form of actual productive capacity which includes so called "dead capital" and which is very hard and somewhat misleading to quantify in terms of money. Most capacity goes to waste in large organizations which find it very difficult to put it to use so that they can get something out of it to pay back to workers either in the form of wages, or as credit, or pass along to investors for that matter--and that's one of the main problems today. It's one of the sicknesses of Late Capitalism which we hear so much about in theory. Money would have to take on the full value of labor, for instance, to be considered true wealth in the way that most theories about it try to have it. That's simply not what it is in a capitalist economy.
In spite of "Ben Sen's" diagnosis of what's wrong with the economy in one sentence-fragment... "credit default swaps were proliferating that brought the economy down"... Boko is dealing with some very murky depths here, and at least he isn't mouthing brain-dead reactionary bullshit like e.g. John Kerry in the WSJ, as exposed by Dean Baker:

"Still it is more than a bit infuriating that Senator Kerry and his colleagues would now be lecturing the country on the need for hard choices. If they could have been bothered to do their damn jobs just a few years ago, we would not be in this situation today. As a result of their failure, tens of millions of workers are unemployed or underemployed. Yet the senators, who are still drawing their paychecks, want the country to sacrifice even more."

This is in response to Kerry's claim that tax-cuts balanced the budget in 2000.

But leaving aside the pompous old goon John Kerry, it's still not exactly easy for even the most reasonable people to figure out why the economy is so stuck, in comparison to the relatively rapid recovery from recessions in the 80s and almost always likewise.

Krugman keeps repeating that it's a "monetary recession," or collapse, or whatever, but why exactly that necessarily makes it worse, I can't understand.

Now investment in equipment and software is nearly back at its pre-recession levels, measured as a share of GDP (hit Section 5 on this link), and yet job growth remains anemic.

Why?

I can't figure it out.
Jacob - There was enormous loss to productive capacity during the recession--it wasn't just a hit to finance. And the recession not only opened up huge holes in the productive economy, strange phenomena began to emerge as well due to the length and depth of the recession. For instance, economies today depend on big organizations and they depend on long complex supply chains. If you lose one or two links in these chains--companies go under, or other large companies decide to withdraw from one of the areas of business they're involved in--you have to scramble to find alternatives, or pay to do the missing work yourself. Unemployment has consequences to companies as well as to workers, too. Lost labor also means lost skills sets, whole divisions and whole facilities being shut down, and a general de-diversifying of business. Not to mention taking on more debt than you had planned to, cancelling expansions, suspending dividends etc. If you return to pre-recession growth rates, you're not talking about growth over and above where you were at before the recession. You're talking about growth in a deep hole. That's why it would take an enormous increase in productivity, a whole new area of industry or large market opening up or something on that scale even to begin to talk about recovery...The loss in value does not just disappear--it's real, it has real material dimensions to it. By the way, like I said in the post, estimates for future growth have been drastically scaled back recently, so we're moving in the wrong direction.
1. Recognition that the problem is stagnation is unusual on OS, where the subjective views of our economy tend to characterize it as considerably worse.

2. "Giant diversion of capital away from production" to paraphrase happened -- but in fact capital was diverted to residential housing based on the mistaken notion that it was 'investment.' Derivatives and exotic finance played its role, but it is not unlike a classic inventory glut in a business cycle. It has to be liquidated.

3. Residential construction is dead and that may be the biggest factor in current stagnation. Some sectors have gotten relatively healthy.

4. We have experienced serious deflation in residential housing. People with ARMs are paying record low mortgage payments (if they pay at all), and buyers are getting great deals. We are also dealing with productivity increases. The result is deflationary pressure from large chunks of our economy.

5. The housing inventory glut needs to be liquidated and new residential construction needs to resume to get the US Economy back on track. The legal challenges to foreclosures needs to be ended -- settled on plausibly equitable terms -- and get on with it.

In fact, we were due for a significant contraction post 9/11, but the housing boom -- now referred to as the housing bubble, complete with MEW (mortgage equity withdrawal) deferred recognition until 2008.

We do have long term structural issues, but they are not new and can be addressed -- in theory -- at least.

Intermediate term, we have a fairly normal but serious business cycle event with a housing glut thrown into the mess. There is much more involved, and housing issues precipitated a financial panic, but the present looks more like an inventory glut than anything else.

I don't see the issue as one of available credit. It is more one of demand. The only entity that can make a difference is the Federal Government and they are doing a lot. Deficit Spending = Stimulus and we are doing a LOT of it. We need to do more until we see a whiff of wage inflation.

Devaluation of the dollar vs Asian currencies would also do wonders for American manufacturing. Which is still huge, despite its shrinking share of total GDP.
the strange phenomenon of healthy businesses going bust is there, but it seems to come mostly from them taking on too much debt. they went into the recession with more debt than they had before the downturn in the mid-80s or 90s, so the comparison the media is always making is bogus. this is a structural crisis, but they don't seem to realize what that means in real-material terms. there's zero discussion of the effects on production this has engendered.

your analysis seems to diverge from shaikh's because where he claims this is a process of steady financialization and push-off, you emphasize the side effects of globalisation that its architects wanted to ignore. interestingly, shaikh wrote a book about globalisation before the crisis and he highlighted some of the same things, including the cost to real profit caused by the move to expand capital. it was hidden by several financial bubbles that then blew up, followed by an even bigger blow up that he now attributes to overextension...is he being inconsistent or just adding to the picture?
Nick - Obviously I think you're simplifying the crisis too much. There's a glut in housing, sure, but it's not like buying is not taking place--the problem is that the only ones buying are well financed individuals (real estate for set-aside investment). And the banks, of course, already own too much of the stock, which is one way in which they've been padding their bottom lines, although I can't imagine it helps them too much. That's a dead-end process. I wouldn't mess too much with the dollar either.

stu - It's true small and midsize firms either went into the crisis with too much debt to survive it or accumulated it since then...and largely couldn't get the credit they would have been able to get in the 80s and 90s to ride it out. But the immediate problem for most of them now is a drop in receipts. If even one or two of their major accounts stops paying, they're in trouble, let alone a lot of them for a couple years. They've reduced labor, too, but that's just a stupid reaction and it hurts them in the long term. There's also a tendency to pick up work they can't do from failed competitors--creative destruction and all that shit (it was always meant to be a macro-economic observation, not a strategy). There are more healthy failures on the horizon.

I don't think Shaikh is being inconsistent, just extending the critique to a bigger scale. The book you're thinking of was one he edited--he wrote the title essay, "Globalization and the Myth of Free Trade." There's also a good essay on profitability in the collection by Andrew Glyn.
There is an over abundance of production potential and any extension of investment is frequently in the area of sophisticated automation which is more efficient than the employment of more labor. But the essential problem seems to be the inability of management to conceive that the financial capability of labor is congruent with the financial power of the market to absorb production. As efficient as automation might be in its productive potential it adds nothing to the power of the market to absorb the output.
I am in awe of your knowledge of economics Boko but never the less I would like to add my own 5 point plan for economic stimulation:

1: A debt jubilee for all educational loans and debts that were incurred by interest rates over 7% and the immediate fixing of all interest rates at 7% or lower

2: The immediate reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act

3: The immediate rescinding of NAFTA

4: The overturning of the Citizens United “decision” and the immediate arrest on charges of treason for the Bush cronies masquerading as judges that are responsible for it.

5: A reopening of the NIST “investigation” of 9/11 chaired by an impartial panel of architects, engineers, and scientists.

Of course these terms will never be met without a shooting war but you cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.
@Jack Heart...

About those eggs, as the former Governator of California once said...

"Less talk. More Killing."

And for the rest of you...

Is it just a coincidence that I'm the only person who actually linked to some hard data, and also (almost) the only person who doesn't claim to have it all figured out?

And BOKO...

All your arguments about why there's no general recovery could also "prove" that business investment in software and other equipment should be way down, too.

But it isn't.
I prefer his only good line in Conan the Destroyer: “enough talk”
I haven't time to say much more, but if you want to start someplace with an analysis that is built on more than a few statistics and a whole bunch of fear, take a look at the legislation Phil Gramm passed while he was head of the Senate Finance Committee. He basically eviserated the controls that had been in effect since the depression, and let the crooks take over--that's a start.

Then you may want to read some Keynes--just enough to privide you with an objective theory and perspective and so people don't think you're a fool. I see you're making efforts here, and want to understand, but don't know much--and a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
All I know is that prices and the market keep going up at the same time, and that can't be good. We're looking at a split economy right now...one for upper middle class boomer generation folks, and one for everybody else. And that's a rocky ride.

The price of globalizing all those companies had to be very big, I wondered where it all went. The government gave them tax breaks and incentives to go oversees, but it never made any sense that it covered the cost, even with the savings on labor. Debt, debt, debt was the result, just like the other end. We all took out credit cards in the 1980's and thought it would last forever. I never believed in the dot.com bubble, the housing bubble, the bubble bubble. Which one are we on now? The hedge fund bubble?

Rated
Oh, and Ben Sen has a rock up his ass. Been there for years. It's called constipation, honey, work it out....
Shaikh is interesting. I'm not sure I believe in "long waves," but he mentions Grossman and Shwarz who are truly great economists. It does present an alternate theory that gets beyond the hard Keynesian school, which is still not going to be enough to drag us out of this mess when the turn to the left comes.

What is Harman's take on Shaikh et al. and long waves?
I think the effects of the recession will keep showing up in mini-recessions for many years to come. Is this the same as a long wave, or a depression cycle?

Good vid. r
Anti-inveigling.




__R__
They're bleedin' us dry! All this talk about recovery is obscene. They just want to go on like nothing happened like they did in the nineties and eighties. You can see it in some of the comments here, talking about growth here and there, green shoots, bullshit like that. As if the losses of the last two years just go away somehow. But those losses can be measured in misery, lost lives, lost opportunities, lost futures. They don't give a shit....

But this ain't the eighties or nineties. And this time we ain't going to keep quiet about it. Fuck 'em. Into the streets.

rate
Jacob - I don't think advances in one sector will be enough. Again, even to begin to offset the gargantuan losses of the recession, growth across the board would have to be several times higher than before the crash. That's not happening, and it's hard to see where a whole new industry or whole new large market is opening up. What we have is sustained, but uneven, and modest growth with future estimates below that. The rest of the present "economy" is hot air in the form of financial speculation.
themanhattankid - Your comment about prices and the market are very interesting. I'm worried about that, too. A sustained period when both stock markets and certain vital consumer prices are going up is not good--it's usually the precursor to an "event," the last one being the '08 disaster. Right before that, energy prices skyrocketed for a lot of people. But everything looked good on the financial horizon. As for what kind of bubble it is that we're all sitting on today, I would say it's an offset bubble. Banks have gone right back into dealing in credit default swaps--just not of the same derivative kind used before--and the whole market right now gives the impression of being hedged against its own collapse.
Jack - Glass-Steagall would be insufficient today, banks and hedge funds (I like to call them hanks) have developed a host of instruments that were never envisaged by that legislation. It would have to be modified, but something like it, along with a transactions tax for reinvesting in social need and productivity, would be nice. More on that later....
Davey - Harman uses Shaikh in several contexts. He uses his work with Tonak in his discussion of the scale of unproductive labor, where they found that the number of workers employed in the US, in unproductive sectors such as trade, finance and insurance rose disproportionately to the number of productive workers, from 1948 to 1989--unproductive increasing from about 12 million to 31.5 million, while productive only increased from about 33 million to 41 million. This is one of the main sicknesses of late capitalism, its overproduction of unproductive work. Note that most of this increase happened well before globalization really got off the ground, a process that only exasperated the differences and tended to turn economies at the capitalist "core" into managerial centers for the rest of the system. At least that was the idea--in fact, the peripheral or developing economies rapidly financialized and started showing the same problems. Meanwhile the core economies started suffering from higher structural unemployment, a condition that lasts to today, aggravated and greatly added to by the crisis. This isn't due to innovation at the core either, it was a process brought on by a series of decisions, at many levels, made under the (un)usual competitive pressures of capital. In other words, crisis and the present state of late capitalism are results of the historical development of capital and not some outside factors or the bad decisions of just a few. Remember neoliberalism has been the reigning ideology of almost the entire capitalist elite for more than thirty years...
Interesting discussion. Haven's seen much here on the human psychology factors at play at this point. A lot of small and medium size business owners say they could hire more folks but they don't have the customer demand to justify doing that and they're just simply afraid to take the risk right now. Seems to me that Krugman and his camp are right in calling for massive federal spending (four times what's proposed) to create infrastructure rebuilding jobs. Seems too that once some jobs are created that way then it will loosen up the logjam of fear that is so pervasive as people feel they once again have some money to spend and so on and so on. Maybe that's just too simple.
Davey (cont'd) - Harman also uses Shaikh and Tonak's work, along with Michl, Moseley, and Wolff, in his discussion of profitability, saying they "have all concluded that the rising ratio of capital to labor was an element in reducing profit rates. It is a conclusion that validates Marx's position that a rising ratio of capital to labor can cut into profits--and is an empirical refutation of the position held by Okishio and others that this is impossible. But it still leaves open why this happened then and not earlier..."

Harman then launches into an argument about how huge arms expenditures during the cold war held back this major crisis trend within capital. By the 1970's, when this played itself out and resulted in overaccumulation, the spring was released and the system found it harder and harder to produce excess value in the form of profit. For Harman, therefore, the present crisis is set up by these events which necessitated the building of several bubbles in finance to try and make up the difference and give the appearance of health to the system throughout the 80s and 90s. The stress finally became too much and the whole thing collapsed--the end taking the shape of an explosion in bad debt.

Shaikh's hypothesis about the present situation is that we're in a depression, but we don't fully realize it yet because the effects are spread out laterally and are only now beginning to come together. Also the reigning ideology, which continues to be neoliberalism despite its being discredited by the crash, is incapable of perceiving economic realities. The managers of the system in politics and finance are focused on financial fluctuations--and then only on a very narrow band of investments--and are concentrating all their energies on trying to get the debt crisis under control.
Tracy - Short answer, yes. Long answer, see what I said to Davey above, and the video.

Mr voulezvous - Thanks for the terminology.

Dr Lee - As always, we see eye to eye. There will have to be some sort of big political rupture before there is effective action in any area besides finance and sovereign debt. Putting everything we have into those areas is just another way of saying that we're sticking with the system of bubble economy we've had for several decades. But then, what else would these people at the top say? They're incapable of anything else....well, maybe a little soft Keynesianism to get some votes. See ya on the barricades!
Sheila - Thanks for stopping.

grif - I'd love to see those things happen, and much more. Krugman is a decent egg, I just don't think he goes far enough. I also don't see the present crop of "leaders," such as they are, doing much more than shifting debt obligations around and praying for a good wind. They built this broken system, and they're going to stick by it, even as it sinks out of sight. We're on our own.

And, as always, I think that people should do whatever they think is right.
I'm way out of my element here, so I'll just say, good for you for taking this all on.
Cathy - I guess my overall point is that in the news, and in the many hosannas coming out of the stock market these days, you don't get a whiff of the real conditions people are living through. The disconnect has become a chasm. It's not just a matter of the super-rich v. the rest of us either. It's an entire philosophy of economy and politics at the top that doesn't make sense anymore, that was trashed by the '08 events but continues to rule us anyway. So while the commentators prattle on about recovery just because there are some modest signs of growth, I wanted to inject a little reality into the situation. The kinds of enormous losses that have taken place over the last two years just don't go away. We'll continue to feel them for a very long time, and they'll continue to drag down even the modest signs of growth we see today, unless we depart from austerity and rightwing economics. Don't let the bastards off the hook quite yet. Trust your experience, yes, but also, don't be fooled into believing that there are no alternatives in economic philosophy to the present financial regime.

grif - I forgot to add that Krugman thinks we're in a long-term event now, too. Call it a depression or a long wave event or whatever you want, the conditions aren't going away anytime soon.
The system has no clothes.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
--sinclair louis

"One withstands the invasion of armies; one does not withstand the invasion of ideas."
--victor hugo


occupy party reaches critical mass/seismic effect--now what?
i can see how your way of describing 'strange phenomena' unique to an extended crisis might be taken as the micro-economic and micro-political equivalent to shaikh's ideas about 'long waves'--this is how it plays itself out in real-time, at the real-material level. shaikh is an academic and more distant than harman or say callinicos. there's a good video online where callinicos mentions shaikh; it's mostly about callinicos's book 'bonfire of illusions.' good stuff. yeah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxhwHLVkWSo&feature=grec_index
1. Regarding housing:

http://usdailyreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/US-Housing-Starts-1959-to-2011_06_12_2011.jpg

Peak to valley, we are talking over 2 million to 600k.

We are missing at least 6 to 800 thousand new units. That's at least $200 billion less any knock on effects. And enough to explain 1/3 to 1/2 of the total problem.

Not only did I over simplify my first comment, but this, of course, is over simplified.

But basically we created an inventory glut in prior years and it is having a direct, observable effect on what is happening now in the US.

2. I'm surprised that people aren't all over your comment that returns on capital/corporate profits are too low.

That, plus the notion that the issue is stagnation and not collapse back to the stone age are an indication of being in touch with economic reality.

3. I'm not seeing a shortage of credit as a big problem, with a few exceptions. I am seeing firms that were totally shut out of capital markets in 2008-2009 getting secured financing on favorable terms.

My central point is that some sort of explicit adjustment needs to be made for US housing prior to serious discussion of long term trends. During the bubble, you have the excess new housing starts, spending from mortgage equity withdrawal (MEW), the wealth effect of the bubble, etc.

And then we are back to talking about long term, structural problems that are neither unique nor as urgent as they would seem otherwise.
Someone pinch me.
vzn - I wouldn't think of trying to get hardline capitalists to understand anything. And while I believe in OWS's message of greed-is-bad and redistribution-is-needed, I'm against the idea that what they need to do now is settle down and land on a few "pragmatic" proposals. Would those be proposals acceptable to the present system's managers? If that's the case, then forget it. I'm with Zizek on this--what they need to do is propose the impossible, at least impossible from within the present coordinates. Like demanding a tax on the banks. Or an entire overhaul of the way we do agriculture in this country--back to small farms, no more subsidies for agra-business, local combines etc. If you land on a set of familiar ideas too soon the system can ignore you, or worse, buy you off. Be unreasonable. Be impatient. Be impossible.

Here's a link to Zizek's article in The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/26/occupy-protesters-bill-clinton
stu - "Bonfire of Illusions" is excellent. I see that Callinicos is now the editor of International Socialism and a correspondent for Actuel Marx. Good bloke.

Nick - I tire of our discussion--or rather your discussion--of the housing market. That's only a small part of the issue at this point. But since you mention it, I see by today's business section that sales of new home rose only anemically in September despite a big cut in prices brought on by very slow demand. Commerce said sales rose 5.7% after hitting a six month low in August. The pace remains less than half of what even the most conservative economist agrees is needed to sustain a healthy market. So, really, nobody is buying.
Tai - That would be terribly un-PC. Consider yourself pinched.
Interesting piece.

I am hearing "moderates" now call for an authoritarian "middle ground" savior to negotiate the abyss between OWS and the tea party, somebody to save the nation from the threats of "socialism" and "laissez faire anarchism." I think Obama will try to play this up to his advantage in the election with petty crumbs thrown to the left, like a latter day Napoleon III.


Thanks for the Zizek article. It was actually very illuminating. Zizek has a way of articulating what many feel, but cannot put into words.

Good to see you back.
Rw - The criminalizing of the protests disturbs me. It brings to mind what Foucault has to say in his prison book about the famous case of the criminal Lacenaire, who helped betray his accomplice to the authorities, and the public reception of the case: "...what was being celebrated was the symbolic figure of an illegality kept within the bounds of delinquency and transformed into discourse--that is to say, made doubly inoffensive; the bourgeoisie had invented for itself a new pleasure, which it has still far from outgrown."

Something like this is happening on one level with all the images of police crackdown on the protests--the protestors are being transformed into delinquents who have to be trained, taught manners, "kettled," accounted for by the official discourse, and made into an object of disdain for good, upstanding middle-class folks etc. I don't think this has been entirely successful--I'm not certain the bourgeoisie have the power to make this kind of transformation of events possible anymore--but this process is certainly operating, or trying to operate, in much of the official coverage. And telling from the disdainful remarks about the behavior, dress, speech of the all-in-all heroic protestors coming from some of the more well-to-do bloggers here on OS, some of the spectators are buying into this "pleasure" of the spectacle. Silly bo-bo's. They're on the menu too.
Interesting post. I've been based in North Africa and reporting on the uprisings since the beginning. One thing I've learned is that this is not a new phenomenon. In fact, similar waves of uprisings took place in the same countries in North Africa in 1919. As far as the Occupy movement, I think that it's amazing to see the dedication but for all protestors around the world I offer this quote from a Sufi master: "Capitalism will not be defeated at the battlefield, capitalism will be defeated at the marketplace."

We have to be the change we want to see. Here in the region they have removed the object of tyranny but the problems still remain.
simba r - I don't think they removed the objects of tyranny in post-colonial times, they shifted the abstraction onto another plain, that of globalized, financialized capital--partly out of necessity, and partly to make it harder to fight back. But people are learning. As Negri's and Hardt's followers say (and they're right at least some of the time), "The multitude learns."