Major Mojo

Major Mojo
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April 02
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Major Mojo
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Pastafarian Navy
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Former human turned evil clown. ....................................................... ........................................................ Banner by the incomparable Ric Tresa ........................................................

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SEPTEMBER 4, 2010 2:47PM

Morals Without Religion

Rate: 30 Flag

  mormon

Many years ago, I played basketball before work with a co-worker who was recently returned from an LDS Mission to Chile.  Once, when a vendor gave me a couple of tickets on short notice, I took him to a Jazz game.  When I picked him up he had his Book of Mormon with him to study during the game.  I lost track of him a few months later so I have no idea if he ever mellowed some in his religious fervor, but he certainly had a pocketful of it then. 

As you can guess, religious discussions were a prominent part of our morning workouts.  He was quite convinced that he could make me see the light regarding the truthfulness of the LDS Church and he tried a variety of tricks to accomplish that.  I’m quite convinced that he consulted with his returned missionary friends on a regular basis for new ways to approach this heathen.

I took most of his attempts in stride but one approach really annoyed me. 

“Yeah, Cap’n, it must be nice to be you.” He told me one morning.  “No goals, no morals, no direction.  Just drift through life and do whatever you want, answering to no one, no consequences to your actions.  Yep, must be nice to not have to live up to anything.”

I reminded him that I was his boss and didn’t get in that position by having no goals or direction.  Beyond that, where could I begin to debunk the absurd proposition that without God or religion, I couldn’t possibly have morals?   No one who’s ever cracked open a history book can argue that God and religion aren’t behind most of evil in the world but I was reluctant to go down such a pedestrian road.

Let’s try this road instead; it’s been said that true character can be judged by what we do when no one is looking.  I like that estimation and I don’t see why it wouldn’t apply to the eye in the sky too.

It’s clear to me that human beings are born knowing right from wrong in a very fundamental way.  It may be as simple as survival instinct.  We don’t want to be killed or stolen from or otherwise harmed by others so we recognize that if we want to be immune from those things we must first start by not perpetrating them ourselves.  Of course, this approach does not guarantee us immunity from bad stuff but it does greatly improve our odds.

Whether you believe that a divine being crafted our moral views or we picked it up from the teachings of organized religion, either view holds that we need religion to curb nature’s vices.

Either view ignores the fact that atheists and agnostics do not behave less morally than religious believers even if their virtuous acts are motivated by different principles.  I believe that there is a third view that recognizes our built in moral views but leaves room for growth and intelligent direction.

In the United States, where the conservative right holds that we should turn to religion for moral insights and inspiration, the gap between religion and government is rapidly diminishing, despite Glenn Beck's cries to the contrary.  Religion has once again made its way back into our public schools, seeking equal status alongside a scientific theory of human nature.  How ironic for a country that was founded by people seeking religious freedom.

We must recognize that our instincts and evolved intuitions, as well as our religious teachings, do not necessarily give us right or consistent answers to moral dilemmas.  What was good for our ancestors may not be good for human beings as a whole today, let alone our planet and all the other living beings that inhabit it. 

Insights into the changing moral landscape have not come from religion but from our growing knowledge of our world, from careful reflection on humanity and from what we consider to be a life well lived.  In the modern world, we must now consider factors such as animal rights, abortion, euthanasia, global warming and international aid when we form our moral views. 

In this respect, we must be aware of the universal set of moral intuition so that we may reflect on them and, if we choose, act contrary to them.  We can do this because it is our own nature, not God, which is the source of our morality. 

If you believe in God do you need him watching from the heavens in order for you to behave as you should?  Does this belief allow you to fully consider your moral choices before you make them or do you simply choose as you’ve been taught to choose, without regard to the insights humankind has gained over the centuries since the ancient religious texts were written and reinterpereted?   Do you require the promise of Heaven or the threat of Hell in order to make proper moral choices?

As for myself, I’ll choose thinking over obedience every time.  That’s a far cry from no goals, no morals, no direction, no consequences.  In fact, it’s quite the opposite, when you have to think through your choices rather than having them handed down.

Peace.  Out.

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In light of my last post, this one seemed right for Repost Saturday.
Some will say we 'get' our morals from religion and to that I say:

nu uh
I’ll choose thinking over obedience every time. That’s a far cry from no goals, no morals, no direction, no consequences. In fact, it’s quite the opposite, when you have to think through your choices rather than having them handed down.

EXACTLY! Glad you reposted this one.
Brilliant and eloquent comeback, Amanda. Mind if I steal it?

Thanks Amy. I thought it fit with recent posts.
Thank you for reposting this; I'd missed it the first time.
Rated.
please attribute properly- but yes, yes you may.
Thanks fusion.

I will properly attribute, of course!
This, from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance -- Plato citing Socrates -- has always said much to me:

And what is good, Phædrus,
And what is not good...
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

In his book, Pirsig was talking specifically about the a priori apprehension of quality (at least, I think he was), but the quote equally applies to what you write about here -- that right and wrong are innate.

Glad you reposted.
I loved that book, Boanerges. I was considering majoring in philosophy until I read it. I decided the minutia would make me crazy, which I think is what happened to Pirsig.

Sounds like you married well, Cindy. I'll take love of my fellow man over love of God any day.

Thank you, LC.
Sounds like wishful thinking to me, Czar.
Cap'n, you spoke for me: As for myself, I’ll choose thinking over obedience every time. That’s a far cry from no goals, no morals, no direction, no consequences. In fact, it’s quite the opposite, when you have to think through your choices rather than having them handed down.

Amen.

Lezlie
Hey, Cap'n, I agree that people without religion can be moral. (I should agree--I'm one of 'em.) I think your Mormon co-worker didn't have too deep a grasp of the issues, but they're difficult ones. For those who believe in an all-powerful, all-good God, one answer to the question "What is moral?" is "What's moral is what God says is moral." That's straightforward on the surface, but it naturally raises the further question of precedence: Is something good just because God says it's good? That seems kind of arbitrary. But if we say that God couldn't or wouldn't say that something is good if it weren't good, that puts constraints on the all-powerful nature of God. The arguments I've seen for wrapping up goodness and God in a single package just don't seem convincing to me.

On the other side, atheists face the difficulty, as you point out, of identifying what's moral and what's not, and this can be subtle. It depends, I think, on our understanding of human nature--an understanding that is weak at best. And human nature can obviously change over time, which makes things even tougher. Again, as you say, figuring all this out is an ongoing process.

Good post.
Somewhere the leaders of these different sects, have forgotten what there mission is. To help the poor. Not preach politics from the pulpit, or give their name to a candidate to get him elected. Unless you are working every day to help the poor eat, sleep and have some small dignity in this world, you are a fake and you need to hang your religious beliefs up until you realize that was what Jesus wanted his disciples to do, if you believe in the Bible! If you don't believe in his word, then you're a fake anyway, so put down the Bible and sell used cars because thats all you're good for!
I agree with just about everything, but don't think religion comes anywhere near school. Unless you consider a sticker on a textbook saying evolution is a theory religion. Our public schools practice Soviet style atheism.
I'm sorry I missed this the first time around and I appreciate you reposting it so we could read it. Cogent thinking, clear argument and no "mixed" message. Just the way I like it. Straight up with a good, healthy dose of intelligence. Tequila chaser optional.
Our public schools practice Soviet style atheism.

So we're carrying out executions of religious students in schools now? Huh. Things have changed a lot.
When the average religion is as moral and ethical as the average atheist, we'll live in a darn fine world!
If you subscribe to anything John Locke wrote, his philosophy of tabula rasa would explain the foundations of morals, personality, social and emotional behavior, and intelligence. A human born in a family of devout Christians would of course have a different perspective than would a human born to devout Atheists, or Muslims, but perspectives are not morals and Atheists and Muslims are no more given to theft, murder, rape or general mayhem than are Christians, so morals by this philosophy are no more founded in religion than say, deep-fried okra is. There simply is no proof that religion is the sole foundation of morals.

There is, however, very strong evidence that a culture's morals are passed to the children of that culture, even when a religion is not present. The Native Americans had no organized religion, but were very spiritual people whose children could arguably be considered holding much higher standards than did the Europeans who slaughtered some 20 million of them and stole their children to raise in the white-man’s “orphanages so they could be taught the white man’s way.”
Thanks everyone. Just got back for a day of riding the rails in Portland. I'm really pleased to see the quality of the comments. I've learned a lot just reading through them.

Norville, I guess you haven't seen all the schools that are wanting to give creationism equal billing with science. We're headed for a new round of Scopes Monkey Trials.
Enjoyed that - well-done. Might even share it with my students.

Those interested in where the human moral sense comes from (granting in arguendo that we have one) would likely enjoy Matt Ridley's "The Origins of Virtue". This book is most enjoyed if read simultaneously with Frans DeWaal's "Good Natured: The Origins of Right & Wrong in Humans and Other Animals". (If I have misspelled Dr DeWaal's name, apologies.) The nature/nurture battle with respect to human moral behaviour has pretty much been fought and decided, and I think these two books (both from the 90's and written more or less at the acme of evolutionary psychology) nail it.
However: One possible danger of "the new atheism" (as the Dawkins/Dennett crowd has been labeled) is that atheists could themselves become dogmatic -- and "Atheism" itself confined to a narrowish orthodoxy at least as dogmatic as Environmentalism, Progressivism, and any other -ism that clear-thinking, logic-guided people end up embracing, or being party to (even "Reject-isms-ism").

Each idea - each concept (God exists; prayer has causal efficacy; religiosity needn't be Theist or Deist, etc.) - should be taken on its own merits, and evaluated with as much dispassion and calm as it warrants. If atheism becomes just another dogmatic, deeply-entrenched position, many of the pitched-battles we atheists fight - for the values we just so happen to hold - risk being lost.

Keep writing; I'm staying-tuned.
JC
Excellent post/repost. The tactics employed by friends, family and acquaintences to save us from our amoral lives would be a novel, although frankly the subject would most likely bore me rather quickly. The idea that lack of subscribing to a religion means that a person has free reign to do anything and "answering to no one, no consequences to your actions. Yep, must be nice to not have to live up to anything." is ludicrous and shallow thinking.
One of the most cogent arguments for rational moralism I've seen. I agree completely.
I had a roommate who was a born again. She marveled that I had the level of ethics and morals I demonstrated since I was not born again and refused to accept jesus into my life as my personal savior and follow the born agains...right after I gave birth to my daughter, and only a year and a half after the death of my brother, she informed me that my brother was in hell because he had not been born again when he died. Born agains really do show the love and compassion of Jesus, don't they? The religious zealot religions twist very wise words and make ridiculous formulas of salvation that conveniently fit and confirm them, not a god of love, not anything truly loving, compassionate and spiritual...
I agree with everything you said, except whenever you referred to "morals" as an actual concept to be defended. Your LDS (wrote it first as a Freudian slip—LSD) presented an argument that begged the question: it assumes morals exist in the first place. This blogger believes that morality is a manufactured premise. Why don't ethics cover all bases? Isn't that what is important?