Over the past couple of days, I’ve been laying low, channeling my inner Greta Garbo, listening, thinking and observing, sitting back, sifting and sorting through a lot of feelings and thoughts about what has been going on in this crazy world of ours. I’ve not had the heart to write or paint about what I perceive to be the turning of the tides that have more serious undertows than I care to get caught up or sucked in by. I will not allow myself to be drowned by tears of blood.
I’m not an “in your face” and “I’ll show you” kind of person. I pride myself on recognizing that certain fights cannot be argued or reach intelligent or happy resolution. It is difficult if not impossible to change people’s minds about hot button issues, regardless of whether their opinions are based on truth, supported by facts or because they have had them spoon fed since birth. It is not hard to comprehend that divisive issues motivated by politics and/or in the name of religion can and will continue to bring out some of the worst behaviors we can barely bare to witness.
A national museum guard today, a doctor last month. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians, all victims, lay buried and forgotten across the planet all in the name of someone’s concept of “freedom” from this century alone. Think of the millions of others who died at the hands of Hussein, Hitler and Stalin (among others) in the century prior. The debris of our history has taught us nothing more than that we are better at recycling our horrible past than we are at building a viable future.
By nature, I am a reasonable person. I believe in the First Amendment and the right to Free Speech. For those of you that don’t know much about my background, I’m an artist. I know what it is like to have my artwork boycotted because it offended someone (read: ONE person) and have the gallery that was showing my work remove it from the exhibition out of “fear” that the offended party would “cause trouble” for the gallery if they did not. I was accused of desecrating the American flag. The ACLU was not too happy about that and the press got all up in the gallery’s business for not having the courage to leave the painting on the wall. Here’s the piece that caused such great controversy a couple of years ago:
It’s called “Overheard at Recent Exhibitions: AKA Freedom of Speech”. Conceptually, I wanted to create a piece of art that shows just how subjective art is and can be. Beauty after all, is in the eye of the beholder. I decided to use the American flag and the First Amendment to make my point. So I borrowed phrases and remarks that I have heard people make while looking at pieces of art and wrote them into the stripes. Each star is a word from the First Amendment and since this beautiful thing that we hold near and dear is five words shorter than the number of stars/states we have, I added “And have a nice day”.
Every phrase you read on the flag I have heard uttered by people at museums, exhibitions and galleries. The public’s right to say these things is equal to my right to put them in my artwork. It’s called a mirror. If you don’t like what you see, it may just be that you are looking at yourself.
Ironically, what prompted my creating this piece was that a few months earlier, I, along with the newspaper I wrote for as a restaurant critic/reviewer, were given notice of a lawsuit that was filed against us both. Yes, ladies and gentleman, I have the dubious distinction of being the first restaurant critic in the state of Florida to be sued for having an opinion. My life has been a nightmare for two and half years and, as a result, I learned an awful lot about what Freedom of Speech means to me.
But let’s get something straight. It is one thing to have an opinion that the overall quality or value of a meal is not equal to the price that is paid. It is equally understandable that a piece of art in one person’s eyes is a piece of crap in another’s. Opinions are subjective and are based on personal esthetics and prior experiences. So, while I may have an opinion as to why a meal in question came up short, I have to support that opinion with proof of price, a description of what made the food less than satisfactory and how I was handled as a patron. The reader has the right to disagree with me. It is very easy for the untrained eye (or palate for that matter) to look at a work of art or taste an overcooked piece of meat and decipher, “I don’t like it”. That said, you need never return to the establishment that disappoints or take out a credit card and walk out the door with a work of art that doesn’t resonate with you. The difference is, more often than not, you still always have to end up paying for a bad meal.
In general, I think I have pretty good taste.
From the onset, I have always considered OS to be an oasis for writers, artists and photographers who want to share their stories, sharpen their skills and hone their craft. I think of it as playground for fun and the exchange of ideas. I respect that people will write about topics or share experiences that are different from mine as are some of their views.
In many ways, I think of OS as a second home. In my home, I don’t call people names or invite them back to visit if they harass, disrespect or treat me poorly. I treat others as I would like to be treated. Lately, I’m starting to feel that around our community people are getting a little more personal in their attacks and becoming far more zealous in opting for name calling instead of utilizing intelligent discourse. I generally don’t seek out heated, vicious exchanges. I'm not a fan of vitriol.
I prefer to stick to the point in discussions and am dismayed by how often people will resort to calling someone any derogatory or mean spirited word or name that can, does and will offend some people’s sensibilities. I realize of course that I have the right to simply ignore these posts and often I do. But it’s the deterioration within the comment threads that seem to be causing more damage than the posts themselves. Maybe that’s why many of you haven’t seen me around much as of late.
With today’s and recent events both on the news and within OS, I am noticing too that we are opting for shouting and name calling instead of a certain civility we have enjoyed. We are less tolerant of differences of opinions and more determined to scream at the top of our lungs. Verbal violence will get us nowhere. But being tolerant of infantile behavior or abusiveness by contributing to it or sitting silently on the sidelines as you read outright lies makes you complicit in your behavior. Beware that there are trolls among us. The right to free speech is one thing. Extremism in any direction must be handled with care.
Know your truth. Beware of impostors.
TIP:
Enter the amount, and click "Tip" to submit!
skeletnwmn
scarletlane
Rutilus Extraho
Mark Pritchard
Brie
Writer to the Stars
Salon.com
Comments
Do you think I have done the wrong thing?
denese
Susan: Thank you so very much. From one to another.
I don't understand why people feel the need to be nasty to each other. I never have, I never will. Expressing an opinion is a right, being "ugly" to one and other is not.
Your art is lovely and sensitive. I'm sure your review was not mean either, I don't think you have a mean bone in your body.
There's something cathartic about getting things off one's chest.
I try to use facts, logic, emotional reasoning. I hope I do a decent job of it.
As for the First Amendment - my Big Daddy always says, "You might have freedom of speech, but you don't have to use it." LOL! Is restraint the greater part of valor? Does moderation seem to be the key? Am I starting to just say anything, including but not limited to Jimmy Buffett lyrics? ::shutting up::
I love you!
That said, the great philosopher Tommy Smothers said, “The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen.”
We don't have to listen. We don't have to let people use our blogs to espouse stuff we find objectionable. These are our blogs, to run pretty much as we see fit, as I understand it. I don't have a problem with anyone yanking something that they find unsuitable for their blog.
No documented facts, no evidence will ever persuade these people to cross over into the land of the rational. I prefer to spend my time and energy doing positive things rather than bang my head against the wall in the hopes I'll change the unchangeable.
Sometimes, giving the wingnuts attention -- no matter how negative -- fuels their fire and validates the possibility that what they say might matter after all.
Maybe its a tree falling in the forest thing. If a wingnut raises a fuss and no one pays attention, has he raised a fuss at all?
peece!
dj
I have been guilty of some harsh words and reactions this last week myself. I know it's not where I "want to go" here on OS or anywhere, but I find myself stressed by the messed up world. I think others feel this same stress and, small creatures that we are (most of us) we take it out on each other.
To echo Anne (1_irritated) and others, I love you. Truly I do Patricia.
That is all.
You have said everything, and far better than I. Thanks for your brave expression, and don't be afraid.
--rated--
Agression is agression in whatever form it takes. Verbal, physical, emotional, spritual, intellectual. It is always easier to be agressive with anger than constructive. Blessed are those who can be pissed and stay balanced.
Like you.
Maria makes a point that I share but also one that has stirred a lot of controversy here on OS, to the point where I am, as you know, taking a break from writing on OS until I get myself to the point where I am not so angry at the growing lack of civility here on OS, and do not have to wonder how I will react when I read comments on my next post. In the long run anger has always led me to a place where when I look into a mirror I see someone that I don't want to be.
Her point is simply that our blogs are ours and we do not have to tolerate hateful and vindictive and often personally attacking comments on our posts. I absolutely hate to remove comments on my posts, and have done it only a few times, when reason was simply not an option and the entire post was being high jacked to promote an agenda that had nothing to do with the post. And I have been called lots of names for doing so.
I have actually been told, several times, that I am a coward and am denying Freedom of Speech. That is such a stretch that it is laughable. All of these people have their own blogs to write whatever they want on them. My blog is an extension of me. Coming there is an invitation into my writing home. We should respect that fact every time we write anything on someone else's blog.
I am disappointed that, of all people, those of this artist's community who are thought to be intelligent and sensitive to civil discourse and common good manners: writers, photographers, painters, and such as we are, cannot understand that if we would not like that said to or about us we are probably not wise to say it about someone who has invited comments on his or her post.
And if we are really beside ourselves upset by something we read in a post there is a PM system where we can rant and rave at the writer. He or she has the right to ignore our rants, but at least we can do it in a way that does not generate a full scale war.
We are, like it or not, a kind of microcosm of our greater society. And these past few days have shown us how dangerous that society can be when the purveyors of hate have, in my opinion, emboldened the sick and wacko element to take things into their own hands.
We on OS have an opportunity to show by our own actions that we offer to one another a more civilized, caring and loving alternative to that hatred and violence.
I lived through a few short years in the 60s where the carriers of the dream I shared for this nation were shot down in cold blood, one after the other after the other. I had hoped we had learned something, but it does not look like we have.
Thank you again. You are the best.
Monte
I did hear/read about the shooting at the Holocaust Museum and instantlyremembered my own trip through there...it is not something easily forgotten.
Beautiful painting from a beautiful soul. Namaste Patricia.
Wise words. Words to live by. Yes, everyone has the right to have -- and to express -- their opinion. But no one has the right to bludgeon others, either verbally or physically.
You rock. And your work is beautiful. If you don't mind, I'll make it my screensaver for a bit. ;)
gracielou: so are you!
Buffy: Thank you for digging this and for your kind words.
Lea: You inspired this in many ways and you know it.
Existence: Recognizing ourselves is the first step to paying better attention. That you use fact and logic puts you *way* ahead of the game.
patricia k: I agree.
BBE: Flag "worship" is definitely a symptom of many things....
Phaedo: Me neither!
mamoore: The painting is sold but in a great home! Thank you for getting "it".
Cindy: I'm so far behind you that I am already a day late on that other thing! ;)
Irritated: Your big daddy is right. I love you, too!
Rick: In another life, I might have been a diplomat!
Steve: Yes, the irony is not lost on me. And it's not often that I agree with any senator, but in this case, he was right. Hugs to you and thank you for your support.
Owl: That it hurts means that we are human. This is why I wrote this.
Rich: No one deserves "hits" in an uncivilized manner.
Maria: Many thanks and I definitely feel your pain as a journalist. It is a very fine line.
dynomite: You have always personified the best of humanity both publicly and privately. I cherish that about you.
Jimenace: We are the best and worst of ourselves and each other. Owning that requires awareness.
trig: I love you, too and am grateful that this piece resonated with you. We all need to work harder at being better.
micalpeace: It is a fine line but intuitively, I think you will figure out when something crosses the line.
Brie: Thank you.
Verbal: If I ever crossed to the other side, you would be my first choice. I love you too and you know it!
livemonster: If the words or the painting made you think or gave you pause, it was/is worth it.
zumalicious: I'm not afraid, but I have been concerned. I feel much better now that I have gotten it off my chest.
Mothership: I adore you and the respect and love are both mutual.
About OS I can comment 'cos I think it happened to me few times when others have thought my comments to be negative. The air was cleared up in most and the others gave such negative comeback that I left well alone.
I do think there is danger in discourse through the written word. You see a conversation in black and white cannot display colors of emotions and without emotions sometimes the black and white may "seem" harsher than they are meant to be . Some times I give it some time and it usually blows over specially since I have bigger worries without a job right now.
I notice however that in Huffpost the volume is so large and impersonal that the writer seldom replies. Thus this phenomenon might be because of our closer ties. Its much tougher to keep ones cool with family members than outsiders.
I know however that all this is easier said than done. So do whatever it takes to sort it out and calm down but dont leave the field. 'Cos then what are we left with....................?
My comment won’t be very popular here. You wrote a similar complaint post back on January 4, 2009 (http://open.salon.com/blog/cartouche/2009/01/04/the_feed_stops_here ). Here’s how you started out “ There’s an underlying, ugliness and seething anger that is beginning to rear its ugly head here on OS. I am ashamed and dismayed how many are starting to become victims of this dribble as well as supporters. I’m sure it was not the intent of OS to start out this way and I certainly hope that some of the bottom feeders that insist on undermining or deriding the (often well) written thoughts of others will find their way to another venue (or country) where they perhaps can find more likeminded people or feel more “comfortable” so they don’t have to deal with blacks, Jews, Zionists, atheists, midgets, the mentally ill or the physically challenged. I’ve just about had enough of it. This morning I have decided to put my foot down.”
My recollection is that you had been on OS about six weeks at that point.
On April 20 you wrote another post instructing people how to behave here on OS. (http://open.salon.com/blog/cartouche/2009/04/20/the_unofficial_os_user_manual) .
Here’s a portion of it: “As adults (need we be reminded of this fact?), we have been entrusted by Joan and Kerry to police ourselves and again, for the most part, we have done and continue to do a pretty good job. Recently however, we appear to have found ourselves witnessing (or igniting or participating in) a lot of mean spirited, angry posts that have created more chaos and ill will than anything I have witnessed here in my short time. This is unfortunate at best. At worst, it is a deterioration of what this site’s intent is all about – the sharing of our art as writers, poets, musicians, photographers, artists, thinkers and observers of life. Please correct me if you came to OS because you were or are under the misconception that this place is a mud slinging bar room brawl dressed up in often well-manicured paragraphs.”
On April 27 you went postal on a new blogger who inadvertently clogged up the feed, and then you deleted your attack post and put up an apology post (http://open.salon.com/blog/cartouche/2009/04/27/an_open_apology_no_nudity).
And now this post. Somehow you’ve connected psychotic murderers, your artwork and newspaper column, and OS all into one theme about free speech or the lack of it. I am confused. Sometimes people write provocative things on OS. That’s good and it comes with a price. Sometimes commenters “go off” and say stupid things and make fools of themselves. I do not understand why we have to follow some rules of civility as you suggest ,as what’s civil to you may not be to another.
Today you wrote “Verbal violence will get us nowhere. But being tolerant of infantile behavior or abusiveness by contributing to it or sitting silently on the sidelines as you read outright lies makes you complicit in your behavior.” Somehow you have decided that if I sit silent and ignore some of the absolute craziness here that I am complicit in it? Cartouche, I would ask you to rethink this. My silence means nothing about my complicitness. It means the post is not worthy of a comment. This is a blog site, not a Supreme Court trial. I sometimes think maybe some people take themselves too seriously.
Three “scolds” in five months seems a little preachy to me. The trolls and wackos will come and go. The best tactic is non-engagement. It really does work.
Btw, I trust that negative restaurant review was not about the Ache and Stale!
The witnesses remaining are getting old. There will come a time soon when no one who saw firsthand, or experienced firsthand, the hatred of the Final Solution, will be alive. For that reason, I am very grateful to have heard the witness of the Schimmels.
The ugliness and hatred expressed in many comments does nothing but incite more ugliness and hatred. I don't understand what people think they accomplish by name calling, personal confrontation and spewing angry denouncements.
I am a practical person and I don't see hearts and minds changed by confrontation. If there is any way to resolve issues, it would more likely be from finding common ground.
So many people seem confused about what freedom of speech means. It doesn't mean the guarantee of a platform. It doesn't mean that anyone is required to express every negative and nasty thought that crosses their mind.
You are a peacemaker. We need a lot more peace.
It's been my great honor and hilarious pleasure to get to know you outside of OS and as much as I cherish the true friendship we have begun to nurture, I often am awed by the presence you have here, and by the way you touch and inspire and, yes, roil the waters in this place; I wholeheartedly echo the love and respect and gratitude expressed by others here on this post -- some of whom I feel as close to and in awe of as I do you. But I think it's well worth taking Grif's comment at its face value and to recognize the wisdom behind the perspective that led him to make it.
We're all mirrors to one another here and if we try hard enough, I believe we can make it a funhouse.
Thank you for saying this. It isn’t always fun or creative on OS is it? The editors keep telling us that open means open but I wish the creativity could drive out the infantile abuse. I pine for civility so that the likes of Monte Canfield are not driven away and that good new members are scared to contribute.
However, I think part of the problem is that it is possible to take OS too seriously and I wonder, like grif, if connecting the bad behaviour on OS with assassinations and mass murders by Hitler and Stalin might be a bit of a stretch? I covered a similar theme on one of my posts (excuse the auto-pimping!)
http://open.salon.com/blog/padraig_colman/2009/02/15/freedom_of_speech_in_the_real_world_outside_os
JK Brady commented on my post: “One of the reasons I like OS, is that I don't feel the heavy hand of an editor or corporation controlling the content. So thank you for sharing this today.”
Gains and losses. Swings and roundabouts.
Rated as an excellent post stimulating the discussion.
The hatred and insanity is made the more crazy by the huge problems we must face and attempt to solve or mitigate. Energy and intelligence must be diverted to identify and thwart these fruit loops, as if we don't have enough problems.
It is really so simple. The golden rule pretty much works across the board, then it's the leave things better than you found them rule, one we'll be working on for hundreds of years to get the hang of (if we catch on fast enough).
Don't lose heart Cartouche, all we can do is use our voice and speak out about what we feel is right, and wrong.
That doesn't mean we can't try to lead by example. Which is why I don't call people ugly names, regardless of what they call me. If they leave the ugliness in my blog, I leave it there, a monument to their lack of humanity.
Therefore, a certain ex-president will forever be "the fool who would be king" by my reckoning, and his side-kick can't be called anything derogatory because there are no names beneath him.
Still, the events of the last few weeks have mean wondering about my own inflammatory language.
I also took quite a bit of heat from surprising places, not to mention numerous nasty PMs -- and I know that I wasn't the only one -- over the recent "equal rights for men" dustup.
I won't stop posting here when I feel I have something worthwhile to blog, but let's just say that I don't have a whole lot of respect for quite a few people here, many of whom have shown their hypocritical colours one too many times for my liking. And now that I know I will never receive an EP or a cover or any kind of editorial recognition here, the thrill has gone out of things. You can take the journalist out of the competition, but you can't take the competition out of the journalist.
One thing I have learned -- you can't dictate or regulate human behavior, as grif noted. I would hope people on an artists' site -- which I no longer believe to be true by the way -- would be more self-reflective, but I'd be wrong. And my attitude toward OS has changed irrevocably because of it.
Oh well, too bad so sad. I've learned to suck up a lot of stuff, this one is a piece of cake.
I came to learn, a long time ago, that you “run this place”. I say that in a manner to reflect respect and admiration. I have seen you be the champion for other talented writers to be heard. I have never seen any disparaging comments from you. I think this is my first time leaving you a comment, and tears are streaming down my face. This world, this country, has become such a sad place to try to survive in, but everyday, it’s people like you that remind me “it’s not all bad—keep going”.
Thank you for being such a powerful voice, but damn it that there just doesn’t seem to be enough people like you.
Deeply,
~Spotted
My point is that some OS people's behavior changes when they decide to comment on a post that they disagree with. They become nasty and malicious.
This is unfortunate for the entire OS community. Ignoring the negativity and "haters" is one possible solution.
RATED xox
http://open.salon.com/blog/jonmagee/2009/06/09/this_is_our_little_secret_the_abuser_said
Though I identify with what you are saying, I would encourage you to stick in here.
rated
Oh and speaking as someone who has been to restaurants, had truly vile food and then wrote accurate reviews that got me into trouble, I know where you're coming from and I hope that things get better.
And keep writing/painting/being artistic. As any fule kno, if you bottle it up you'll explode!
As for the occasional vitriol on OS, it's mostly just good old web rage. Like road rage, it stems from the fact that we can't look into each other's eyes when we address each other on the net. I certainly don't defend it, but I wouldn't worry too much about things that are said by anonymous strangers.
However....if a person wants to rudely attack me or any of my friends on OS then I will do what usually makes them the maddest. Ignore them.
I came back only to say we all do that all the time in life.I agree with most here who speak of tolerance and developing capabilities of not letting others' opinions matter so much. After all we are writing for ourselves, specially at OS.
Many years ago, my restaurant reviewer sister was sued by a disgruntled restaurant owner for having an opinion. He lost. I think he's out of business now. She isn't.
This sentence describes why I usually avoid writing political posts:
"It is difficult if not impossible to change people’s minds about hot button issues, regardless of whether their opinions are based on truth, supported by facts or because they have had them spoon fed since birth. "
Changing people's minds feels like driving your head into a brick wall continuously.
And that is why one of my blog posts deals solely with that song and a later visually annotated version of today, sandwiched between the lyrics.
On my first days here, I tried to debate reason with reason and included footnotes to confirm my contentions.
Way too soon, I found that although many were enjoying and commenting affirmatively on my posts, some would just traipse right in and make some crazed off the wall comment.
Having lived a year on the only English such site on this tiny island, I was used to such stuff, directed at me on a daily basis.
Shortly before leaving the site, as hints of my imminent departure were discernible in my increasingly less frequent comments many started to PM me asking me not to leave, this from the military mind You.
The administrators got wind of my thoughts and they too begged me not to leave - as I look back at my numbers now, they I had entered the top ten in rated comments.
Silently, I disappeared into the night.
When I lived and worked in Casablanca, I struggled mightily to learn Arabic, a most difficult language, indeed.
When I similarly lived and worked in Barcelona, comparatively Spanish was a piece of cake.
Of all the nearly dozen places, I've lived and worked, nothing compares to japanese even remotely, three completely different modes of language and disconnected no less, Kana, Katakana, and Kanji and after nearly a dozen years of self study and several private teachers, my Japanese still sounds like pig-latin to most, understandable, for sure, but grammatically mangled beyond belief.
So, although I agree with Cartouche's incredible post completely, I still find that when in Rome, do as the Romans
When in Greece, do as the Grecians.
When in Thailand do as the Thai.
And here in OS after months of trying to reason with some here and to know avail.
I have come to:
When cretins approach the only language that might possibly be effective is cretinese.
Wait there's more.
I have now come to the conclusion that cretinese although being a release valve for pent up despair works, as I've been advised by some, ignoring the cretins and they soon get bored and go away, and with such sage advice, I have recovered much of my readership and feel much better about myself. too.
Thank You Cartouche for this superb post and thanks to Owl_says_who for directing me here
HIGHLY Rated for reasons too numerous to say, and others above me have done a far better job than i could even aspire to.
I wish I had come here earlier.
PS - I just LOVE, LOVE the flag and the concept. If I had any money
(carrots, tomatoes and potatoes sold in two packs @ $2 to $4 per). I'd buy me one and hang it from my tenth floor terrace.
What worries me is when outsiders look in and make a snap decision that OS is just like all the other nasty internet sites - which it clearly isn't 99% of the time. Sigh.
I noticed too that you had not been around as much and wondered if you were going to reappear soon. This was worth waiting to see and thank you for stimulating a discussion.
Rated.
"Thankfully, you are part of a small but despicable minority that is a pimple on the ass of the human race and hopefully, your breed will die out sooner rather than later."
"I hope they have the same kind of gas chambers and ovens that you refute ever existed and I wish you a very slow, long burn in whatever kind of hell awaits you when your time comes to an end. You should be ashamed of yourself. Of course, that's not possible. You are delusional."
So, as we see, there is one rule for Zionists, they are permitted to make the vilest insults they can think of, while criticizing others for that very thing. Is is lack of awareness? Consicious? I can't tell, in any case it's comical.
But, I'm not dismayed. I did respond to Cartouche's post on my blog, not to the insults but to the substance, and would be happy to continue the discussion minus the insults (on her part, I don't do that) or even with the insults, anyone who criticizes the Zionists becomes quickly used to insults.
Thanks for the reminder, Cartouche
SeattleK8: For some reason, your comment triggered an understanding about myself that I had not considered. Thank YOU for giving me that revelation.
Monte: Perhaps I am far behind you on the learning curve and the passionate conflicted feelings I have been dealing with resemble those you went through in the 60's. I'm still altruistic enough to have dreams, but they are more for humanity and our planet. I think our country has much work to do. One day, I look forward to meeting you in person and giving you the great big hug I have always wanted to. You and I are proof positive that people with differing opinions on things that are equally important to both of us as well as common beliefs that we share can make for a deep friendship that is founded first on respect. I heart you, Monte.
JK: I had noticed that you had been absent as well and wondered if it was for the same reasons. Thank you for the kindness you have always shown me. Xoxo
WriterVixen: "But no one has the right to bludgeon others, either verbally or physically." I agree with you absolutely. Please feel free to use my painting as your screen saver - I'm flattered!
Rob: This is one of the nicest compliments I have ever received. Perhaps I was overly sensitive last evening. Your words made me cry. And just so you know, I often think of you as "brains" of this place. Xoxo
Traveller1: You make an excellent point about our conversations taking place in black and white with the inability to display colors of emotions. Perhaps we need to "feel AND think" before we write AND hit PUBLISH or POST.
nanatehay: Thank you so much. And about that "opinion" - like what was I thinking?
grif82600: You will get no argument from me. Only my opinion.
LaurelnL: Ache and Stale would have done better, I can assure you!
Cindy: Thanks for the link. It's important.
Yarn Over: Guilty as charged for wearing my heart (and my soul) on my sleeve. Thanks for your kind words.
SuznMaree: We do need a lot more peace. Many thanks.
lonnie: I'm all for the funhouse. I'm not crazy about smoke and mirrors or those that cause distorted reflections. There is a lot of delusion and hatred out there and regrettably, OS is not immune to it either.
Padraig: I have tremendous respect for you and would like to say that I am not trying to "connect" the ideas of racism, murder and freedom of speech to OS as much as I am trying to point out that tolerance or intolerance have proven to be part of the much bigger picture. It starts with individual responsibility.
Ablonde: Thank you for putting it all so concisely and intelligently.
Incandescent: I think that's a smart way to approach things.
Cordle: You know that I agree with you about our former "leader" and his side-kick. The proper words to describe what they did to our people and our country have yet to be invented.
emma: Choosing to stay on the sideline and not enter the fray when things have already elevated beyond ugly, is a choice that I have made about many topics, posts and comment threads. I am a pro-choice, equal rights person with a particular tender spot when it comes to animal cruelty, race related issues, child abuse and holocaust denial. The extent of my engagement or participation in these discussions may be vastly different than many others. I make it a rule to say what is on my mind without getting involved in a back and forth with anyone because I have been proven enough times that escalating the argument gets neither party anywhere. So I speak my peace in a manner/language that is comfortable for me that reflects my truth about that subject without allowing it to deteriorate into personal attacks. I I have not encountered the victimization, nasty emails, mean spirited comments that you and some others have suffered here on OS (for which I am truly sorry). If nothing else, my lawsuit taught me that as much as I wanted to respond to every hate e-mail and comment on the site where the attacks came at me, no response is also a response. It empowered me to learn to respond with facts instead of emotions even if I felt horrible about how I felt I was perceived or being attacked. I think everyone has to pick and choose their battles carefully about whatever they are passionate about. Expecting others to share our enthusiasm or defiance or come to our defenses about them is unrealistic. I learned that with my lawsuit, the flag painting debacle, and my Without a Legacy to Stand On project. That doesn't make the people who didn't jump in less important to me because those things were less important to them. In the end, this post was not about "me" or you or feminism, racisim or any other hot topic of late. It was and is about how we have been dealing with them. We all have our own personal fights and our struggles. I fully expect differences of opinion and contrary belief systems until the end of time. It's how we go about handling them as human beings that I hope might possibly change; I don't expect the opinions about them t really change at all. Even if the facts are placed directly under people's noses and at their feet. And even those sometimes, are merely a matter of perception.
spotted: Please don't cry, because then you'll make me cry again. I only hope that people start to think a little more before they leap and continue to pay good deeds forward. A warm hug to you.
Shivaun: From what I have witnessed, I think you practice what you preach. You are smart and have always been courteous from what I have seen, even if you are impassioned.
littlewillie: I agree with you in most respects but as I mentioned to emma, everyone has topics that they are more passionate about than others. It's HOW we behave that is important.
jonmagee: I read your post and quite likely forgot to comment, for which I apologize. I respect your choice. And for the record, I'm not leaving.
Cymraeg: I think you and I both had similar teachers that caused us to consider our actions carefully. I think we have had similar results. I consider ourselves lucky.
Norwonk: I wonder how differently many of the people would behave if they were looking into each other's eyes....?
lifehalflived: Yours is an approach I take more often than not. Well said.
Traveller1: I particularly like that you refer to Gandhi's approach from a place of love. Would that we could all start from that place.
Mumbletypeg: It is hard to figure out when it is worth getting into a fight. It's even worse if you had no intention of doing so and someone comes out of left field to start one. Glad your sister is still in business.
Travis: I'm nodding my head in agreement at your last sentence. I'll only add that you are doing it at 100mph.
mark: I hope you continue to gain readership of your thoughtful posts and don't get sidetracked by the other stuff. Glad you like the painting. I'm flush with produce, though! ;)
Kellylark: Thanks for noticing and for your last sentence, especially. I often wonder that too. Sigh.
marytkelly: You and I both know that loudest roar doesn't always win. Hopefully we'll all continue to play and grow together.
Lisa: I thought this would resonate with you.
alsoknownas: Thank you for your private message and for giving me the time to absorb and process.
Narcissus: I am not a Zionist but I AM the daughter of a Holocaust survivor. Apparently you cannot get your facts straight. Thank you for posting my comment to you here. Holocaust DENIERS are as frightening a group as white supremacists, racists, bigots and religious fanatics of ANY kind. But don't get too excited, Narcissus. This post was not about you.
I do my best. But, beyond that, a Zionist is, by definition I think, someone who believes that the Jews have a right to a 'Jewish state' on Palestinian land. Supporters of 2-state solution are Zionists. One state solution - not Zionists. Are you a Zionist?
Thank you for posting my comment to you here.
Aren't you embarrassed, complaining about lack of civility and name calling, immediately after calling me a pimple on the ass of humanity? ???
This post was not about you.
Well, a remarkable coincidence. In fact freedom of speech has been severely limited, by Zionists, in Europe, Canada and Australia. People are serving hard time now for holocaust denial. The ADL is very actively supporting 'hate crime' legislation here, as they have everywhere, to ultimately make certain speech illegal. They grouse openly about the First Amendment and how is has thwarted them. If you support free speech, you oppose the ADL in its efforts, I trust.
And, believe it or not, I'm a very reasonable fellow, former engineer, rational and empirical to a fault. I think you should debate the matter a bit, you might learn something, before indulging in an emotional irrational response, and then complaining about the costs of freedom of speech.
Great post as always. I have become more troubled lately by our society's trend toward relativism. This attitude has so severely damage people's ability and squashed any desire to critically think.
I have been thinking about this long and hard over the last two weeks and it has been spurred on by the murder of Dr. Tiller and the horrendous violence at the Holocaust museum yesterday.
I am more or less speaking to the attitude of "Well everyone has an opinion" Here's the rub-everyone may have an opinion, but it is not always an informed or analytical opinion. Furthermore some things are proven facts and not just opinions. Allowing this relativism to prevail has now turned into a mad rush "to find common ground".
This leaves the doors wide open for the extreme right to continue to do what they do-spew hate and when their hate isn't winning they slander you, sue you, fire you, prosecute you, assault you, rape you and if they're not satsified they just kill you. We must stand up to and call out racism,homophobia, misogeny, nationalism, religous extremism when they show their face. Also, please I'm begging, start thinking, people. Not everything is "just an opinion" and some things really are facts.
Here are just a few:
A fetus is not a person
Evolution is real
There really is global warming
Women are human and not property of men
Water boarding is actual drowning and torture
Torture does not make us safe and is just wrong period
The Holocaust really happened
I could add to the list, but I won't. cartouche, I'm really sorry, but I think I just wrote an essay in the comments section of your post. I was going to write one over the weekend on this and call it "Get Your Head Out of Your Asses and Think" I hope you'll forgive me.
Thanks, again for this great post.
Now I have to go visit this art website of yours. That flag is just my style. Rated.
"Many times I am angered or disappointed by the vitriol, but I consciously choose to stay out of it so as not to encourage it. That includes "defending" those that I like and care about here, as it will only fuel the fire. "
This is my approach, too.
To anyone who is tempted to get into an escalating, angry exchange, the question to be asked is - What is to be accomplished by it?
Civility
Kindness
Vision
Strength of Ideas
Compassion
As Telly always said so firmly, and with supreme elegance:
"Who Loves you Baby?"
Kisses,
Marcela
Seeing your work is good and works perfectly in the context of your writing. It seems less and less is being tolerated so far as free speech but we are more and more in fear. Maybe someone will see the parallels? Before it is too late?
it is hard to keep your patience. i like to think often that i'm just not pulling my punches, but i don't know how sensitive or approachable i really am. i might be stifling discussions with offensive behavior. i hope that concern implies i'm not, but how would i begin to know?
and if that painting needs a home, i think it would be perfect in our den.
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio
and imho, i cannot disagree more. free speech has got to be free, not subject to invisible restraints existing only in one or two men's minds. we should remember what these words really meant when we quote them.
Although I really like Cartouche's idea, it does seem to be a form of censorship. I vehemently disagree with holocaust denial yet find it fascinating to watch it defended and rationalized.
There is hypocrisy here, much of it caused by emotions. I don't hold it against Cartouche for lashing out at people she finds offensive and reprehensible. We are human, filled with emotions, I don't want to read writing done by emotionless autobots all the time.
I would prefer my news delivered without all the emotion and partisan B.S. But writing encompasses all that we as humans are adn as such we are going to be appalled by some and love others.
I have witnessed, been victim of and guilty of duplicity. What I see here on OS is the popular group is forgiven by their followers for their digressions and the less popular are villified.
I may be totally wrong. But, it seems their is enough evidence to uphold my case.
A double standard if you will. A nefarious type of censorship.
I hate censorship. I almost didn't post my latest out of fear. Fear that I was speaking negatively about a certain group that kills abotion doctors... then I thought in some small way that would mean they won...so fuck them.
Rated
This is what I believe is happening in the right wing of today. It is not so much that I would say that they all are trying to cause harm or spread lies but rather that many elect to ignore the misbehavior and propaganda of others.
Great post! rated!
As for the issue of speech in general, I think people should feel free to speak their position on things but what usually causes problems is when they try to use things like ad hominem arguments or other abuses/distractions. An honest statement of disagreement seems in order sometimes, and is necessary to the proper functioning of a democracy. Debunking a speaker rather than a topic is often efficient, which is why some do it, but the practice is also poisonous to civil discourse and must not be allowed to become the norm.
Freedom of Speech isn't what it used to be-- I've probably said this before around here someplace, but I'll say it again-- it used to rankle me whenever George Bush gave a speech somewhere and got heckled. Whoever it was would stand up and say whatever they had to say, and then ole' George would lean into the microphone, smile that goofy grin of his, and say "I just love freedom of speech". Then the camera would cut back and show his goons dragging whomever it was away to the oubliette du jur.
Of course, on the flip side it was probably poor form to heckle the President in the first place, regardless of what you thought about his daffy, dunder-headed, mean and nasty politics... but I digress...
I think one of the reasons that you see more and more ugliness on OS is because more people are using it to frame arguments (of the intellectual kind) and are getting replies by respondents using it to frame arguments (of the vitriolic kind). The two rarely mix well together.
Then there's the shock value of mean and nasty words. You call someone a "putz" and they have to holler back "schmuck!". After that's gone back and forth a few times it loses its shock value so the venom and spewage just amps on up. It might even be human nature.
However, as you pointed out-- what really baffles me is why people even bother respond or comment in the middle of these shit-storms? Do they honestly think that they're going to say something that's gonna back anybody down? How many times has that happened? Once out of hundreds maybe? Maybe even never? More likely they're just gonna get targeted next. And then they'll get their feelings hurt and sling something back-- and while it makes for amusing reading and all-- what's the ultimate point? What good does it serve to stand there and dish it out? Unless of course you're just there to sharpen your barbs, in which case, sharpen away!
And this whole business of trolls thing-- that's a bit odd too. I've noticed that there are two types of trolls. The first is somebody who deliberately posts / comments something provocative and then runs away, or else continues to fan the flames looking for reactions.
The other is someone who the poster, or other commenters, don't agree with, regardless of the fact that they continue to stand there and attempt to argue their point(s) with varying degrees of success... usually dwindling down to zero.
But I agree with Cartouche-- OS is a nice place. There are so few nice places left in the world. Why spoil it?
john walker: Your comment was eloquent and worth repeating often. It struck a chord with me and I hope you will expound upon it. It is definitely worth sharing.
Jeanette D.: Many thanks.
David Decker: "earthy elegance"....? I'm very flattered. Thank you.
Jill McLaughlin: Don't apologize. I'm on the exact same page with you and yes, the list could (and should) be much longer!
Jeremiah: Thank you for sending me to Greg's post. It was definitely worth the read. And I know I'm behind, but will be by to read yours shortly.
lollygagger: I agree and cringe too.
SanMaree: Excellent point. And in the whole scheme of things, how important is that anger and vitriol? Will it be of importance a year from now? I think about that before I even consider "doing battle" with words. Most of the time, it's just not worth it.
Connie: Ibid.
Gary: Who loves you back? You know the answer already. There are many of us. Too many to count.
Delia: Many thanks.
Marcela K: One can only hope that fanatics read and listen to anything else but their own rhetoric. I fear they don't. Kisses back.
Brenda: I think many people see the parallels and as lonnie lazar stated so eloquently in his most recent post in the comment thread, we need to stand up and fight together.
Stacey: You made me smile with this. Perhaps you ought to consider doing a post on that very subject. I've done enough "preaching" for awhile....
bstrangely: I loved this: "we imagine invisible armies to surmount instead of hearing what a genuine person in front of us is saying.". I'd add this: It is important that we LISTEN.
Sirenita: I find civility relaxing too. The lack of it gives me the horrible feeling that would be equivalent to a deposition. I know what that feels like.
Jay: I'm not offended at all. I think you missed a slight nuance to my post. The name calling that comes from people in comments when they don't agree does nothing to elevate the discourse or reach a place where people agree to disagree. It simply escalates emotions and causes people to react to their emotions instead of using their intellect and writing talent. I stay away from these kinds of exchanges for that reason. My prerogative and choice. When I see people writing blatant lies that cannot be substantiated with facts, I feel a sense of responsibility to call the liar out. But picking four letter words or names is not nearly as effective (in my mind) as poking holes in the story. Blatant racism, bigotry, homophobia, anti-semitism and the like, will always get my attention. Always.
Robin: You, my dear are anything but an impostor. You are 100% authentic and I value that about you. A lot.
Walter: Thank you so much.
Eric: While I agree that the right wing is electing to ignore the misbehavior and propaganda of others, I worry further that humanity is doing much the same thing. Thanks for stopping by. I love finding new members this way!
Kent: I agree whole heartedly. It's the abuses and distractions that are the causes of many of the ills I speak of. They aren't productive at all. If anything, they can take an intelligent/healthy debate and break it into the equivalent of a barroom brawl. Everybody goes home feeling pretty beat up and in the morning, they can't even remember what the fight was really about.
Plus "My inner Greta Garbo". . .I loved that.
I for one, have come to enjoy your posts and comments and I hope that you continue to bless us with your words and insights. By the way, I love the painting.
Sorry, didn't mean to make light of your excellent post. Well-said, great job, you know this is one of the reasons I have stepped away from OS more often than not as of late. But I still come back to visit and am glad you do the same.
I just can't bare to see such horrible bullying, accompanied by hateful comments, it almost hurts to read.
I love the Flag.
I wish I could do something as artistic, but I have no talent, and not enough imagination to create anything so unique.
Maggie
dcvdickens: Fear drives many things. Anger often steers things off course. I am more concerned about potential head on collisions.
Chicago: I knew there was a reason you were the first person that I favorited on OS all those months ago. Thank you. Hugs.
Joan K: I thought we were over that in the 60's too.
OE: I am honored to walk side by side with you.
lemonpulp: Many thanks for you support!
pretend: Funny girl. I thought about writing that exact same line when I wrote this! But I do understand and respect your decision to lay low recently. That those dolls brought you back is more than ironic! ;)
shaggylocks: Would that people could click on that flag and get it as a download!
fingerlakes: I have always admired your voice, your writing and your truth.
Ben Sen: Understood. But sometimes a little light on my "ideology" can help explain my perspective when I "share myself" in other posts.
sagejournal: I don't know that I have the answers but I respect the fact that you have chosen to participate on OS and maintain intelligent discourse against many whose political beliefs are different than yours, including mine. If people continue to *choose* to set the example and be the exception we could make an impact as well as a difference.
Gary: Thank you for understanding that in more ways than many.
jimgalt: Thank you for seeing the consistency. I do what comes naturally.
Maggie: I'm not sure what post you are referring to but I can assure you, it was not yours. There has been an increased volume of rage and name calling in comments that prompted this post more than anything.
Love the painting of the flag. It is said when something so beautiful as a piece of art can be threatened like that. I had a drawing about spiritual freedom that the college hung in their hallway. They received so many threats about burning it and other things to it, that they had to remove it from the hallway.
Great post!!
Article
Muqtada
sticker printing