Cartouche's Blog

Writing My Way Out of Something

cartouche

cartouche
Location
Someplace, somewhere else, USA
Birthday
February 09
Title
nonconfromist (on Twitter)
Company
Mind My Own Business
Bio
Artist, former newspaper columnist and restaurant critic. Author of "In Pursuit of Excellence" (the first cookbook of Two Star Michelin Chef Josiah Citrin). In my spare minute I can be found blogging here, on Huffington Post and other places that don't pay. And writing for some that do. You are NOT in Kansas anymore, Toto. Neither am I.

MY RECENT POSTS

JANUARY 24, 2011 3:17PM

We the People of OS Versus:

Rate: 58 Flag

Caitlin Kelly.

The name behind the post that ended one of the longest stretches of time on OS without a dustup to create, (what else?) a dustup.  In case you were solving world hunger, away from OS over the weekend, living your life and/or pretended not to notice, we the people of OS managed to exhibit some of the best of our worst behavior. 

Some decided to haul out the pitchforks and bring flaming torches (in the form of words, accusations and some really awful name-calling) and dress it up like poop as they delivered it to Caitlin Kelly’s blog step.  Talk about putting someone in the crosshairs.  Isn’t that what "we the people" are so outraged by as far as Sarah Palin’s targeting of individuals? 

We have the horrible events of Tucson to remind us.

That Caitlin's post stirred up a big dose of controversy and judgment from all sides is only the beginning.  Before you think for a minute I am defending her post (I’m not; but I fully defend her right to freedom of speech and opinion as I do yours and yours and yours), I want to state a couple of facts as well as opinions.  It’s not the usual navel gazing or gushy writing that begs for gushy comments.  And yes, I am fully aware by doing so, that I am also having a little fun here at Caitlin’s expense, as many others believed they were when the offshoot posts sprang up. 

But I’m completely serious.

I am in no way contributing to the pileup and pile on that occurred after her post caught fire.  I am looking to reason and for reasonability.

I'm a former newspaper columnist and restaurant critic.  While I did not write for anything as prestigious as the New York Times, I understand the need for objectivity and an ability to set emotion aside when it comes to journalism.  That she may or may not think of me as a "colleague" is immaterial.  That I have observed a "coolness" to her writing comes from this understanding.  But blogging is different than journalism (in my opinion) and that coolness may in fact be what got Caitlin into some hot water. 

The moment I read her post (within minutes of it getting published), I cringed and thought to myself, “Oh, no.  This is not going to go over well in this community.”  One of the most important keys to a writer’s success is to know your audience.  Since I am not Caitlin, I can only surmise that either she does not know the OS audience or perhaps she simply doesn’t care. 

We the people have the right to disagree.  How we go about doing it never ceases to amaze me.  I posted my comment and I stand behind it.  I didn't attack her personally and thought many of her points were excellent.

But let me be perfectly clear.  I personally disliked the tone and as some stated, found it to be self-promoting and condescending.  But unlike many who were outraged by her opinion, I didn’t take it as a personal attack on me, or my writing (or on any other OS member either).  My comment reflected my ability to be objective about the content and not look at it as an opportunity to attack her.

My purpose of or reason for blogging is probably very different than Caitlin's.  I accept that we all have our own and will defend anyone’s right to utilize a blog however he or she chooses.  I may not like it, but if that’s the case, I can click elsewhere without saying a word.  Silence often speaks louder.

About midway through reading, I came across a typo in the post.  I knew that if I caught it, someone else might too.  I also knew that someone who was utterly offended by the tone and content of the post might very well decide to take her to task and rake her over the coals because of it and point out the error in the comment thread.  I sensed the ensuing onslaught before it even happened.

So I PMed Caitlin and informed her of the typo.  She quickly corrected it and graciously wrote back to thank me.  I went on with my day.  Later on in the morning, I went back to her post and noticed that it had raised a lot of hackles and the inevitable slow motion car wreck was unfolding.  That familiar discomfort in my gut began as I noticed many people who I consider online friends exercising their right to free speech without exercising much caution.  I couldn't witness it any longer.

I have been the recipient of one of these pileups and have a boatload of comments to prove it. We the people can learn much more about each other on OS from reading comments than we can often glean from edited writing in the form of posts.  The now defunct tomreedtoon comes to mind. He found great pleasure in being negative and mean, as if he had no other choice.  We all do.  When he crossed the line by becoming threatening, he violated more than the terms of service and his account was deleted.  His "target"?  Caitlin Kelly.  You can thank her for taking it seriously enough to get him off this site.  If you were never the victim of any of his vitriol, consider yourself lucky.

In the heat of passion, anger or heated debate, people show their true colors.  You can’t edit or erase your own comments.  Even after the post has died and the flames have subsided, those arrows are a permanent record and reflection of who we the people ultimately are.  They are often cruel and ugly reminders. We all leave footprints.

For those of you who have been around OS for at least a year, you might remember a member named Will Someone Feed the Cat.  She was smart, snarky funny, clever and witty.  She was a great writer and a very generous reader who compiled a weekly list of posts that were bestowed with Tiara Picks.  These were sometimes more coveted than EPs.  She was a beloved member of this community and is missed by many, including me.

What many people perhaps won’t recall or didn’t know, is that when she first arrived on the scene, her initial post was downright caustic and mean spirited.  She came into OS wearing boxing gloves and single handedly attacked members by name for poor spelling and grammar and basically told some of them that their writing sucked.  She didn’t know her audience and she didn’t endear herself in any way.  That came later. 

For what it’s worth, the perception of Will Someone Feed the Cat or Caitlin Kelly or of anyone else for that matter (including me) is not something that anybody can control.  What we can control is how we the people react to them.   I’ve been around the block and on OS long enough to know that there are people who, for one reason or another are lightning rods.  They stir emotions, shake the foundation of our beliefs or raise our ire just by the tone of their words.  What credence we give them or those feelings and how we respond is entirely up to us.

The proof of how that was done in the case of Caitlin’s post rests in the comment thread.  I submit that for whatever real or perceived crime she allegedly committed with her tone and her opinion (to which she is fully entitled to have both), there were equal crimes committed in the name of vilification.  There were plenty of accomplices who sought to attack her personally and professionally and in some cases, used the lowest form of name calling and left it as evidence.  As often is the case, some of the perpetrators returned to the scene of the crime.   

If you can take your personal feelings out of the equation for a moment and read the comment thread alone, I wonder how any one of you would feel about having those same words that appeared there directed at you, as a person and not just as a writer.

Take a moment and let that settle in. 

The comment thread offers more than enough evidence to prove that we the people of OS need to consider the reasons we justify such behavior in our responses where civility might better serve us all. 

In the end, the tone from both sides may in fact not be defensible but the right to free speech or to remain silent does. Whether it be by gun or with a choice of words, they are both weapons that can have devastating effects when they are aimed at individuals.

I've seen it happen here more than once.  Some of them simply disappeared or  were run out of Open Salon because of words that repeatedly stabbed them.  

We are all moving targets.

I rest my case. 

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Playing to the audience creates success in most art forms. That doesn't cheapen the performance, more so it makes it interactive.
I'm not convinced that did not happen this weekend, i.e., that is the controversy may have been purposeful. I would not have anyway to know, although I do see your point.
Just popped in from messing around on the Guardian talk sites (where I read a lot but only infrequently comment under another name) and thought I'd offer the observation that OS is not the only place where people get flamed. In fact, on there it's deemed, I think, to be an international art form. Doesn't make it very palatable, however.

And I too very much miss The Cat.
Brilliantly stated with quiet eloquence. Thank you for this, Patricia. Well done.
Rated.
I happen to like it when people get pissed off at my posts (i.e."Is Jane Austen Overrated?"), but unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough. Vitriol is so much more fun. Caitlin said she didn't like the gushy comments, and she didn't get too many on that post, so at least that's a happy outcome for her. Frankly, I'm jealous.
I wish I'd written this. Thank you for having done so.
I follow a sports blogger named Jeff Pearlman. Recently, he wrote a post that triggered of "You suck! You're a moron!" comment. Last week, he wrote a story for CNN of what happened when he tracked down two of the harshest commenters and talked to them on the phone. One-to-one, the commenters were apologetic and pleasant and reasonable. Which confirms my belief that a lot of negativity is cloaked by the anonymity of the Internet, which allows people to say mean things they would never say to the person in public.
Come to think of it, if it hadn't been Caitlin, it would have been someone else who fired off the latest flame-war. It seems to be what we do and it's been quite a while.
Not to diminish any of your finely-made points... just sayin'...
Well done -- take it from someone who's stared down the mob more than once. What I found interesting about the comments on Caitlin's post is that most people were appreciative in the beginning but as soon as THEY WHO MAKE THE RULES appeared, it quickly turned into a lynch mob. jk brady also noted that. What is ironic about it all is that the people who felt perfectly justified in all manner of scathing personal attack on Caitlin are also the ones constantly preaching "niceness" here. The defense that anyone who objected lacked a sense of "humour" made me laugh out loud since the people who wielded the biggest pitchforks are also the most incredibly thin-skinned when it comes to their own writing. And in the interests of crass self-promotion, I'm linking to my own blog on the subject here.
http://open.salon.com/blog/emma_peel_2/2011/01/23/the_new_os_tos Sorry for the indirect link, but I don't know how to link in comments.
I missed this latest brouhaha and am glad of it. I am also glad that this is the first post I have read today about it. I will go back and check it out, but having read your common sense post will undoubtablly make me see things in a different light than if I had been present when it all went down. Having embarrased myself the last time a "writer/not writer" dustup occured, I will gladly sit this one out.
I hope this is the final word on the subject, because it is the most eloquent and compassionate.
When I checked OS on Saturday and saw the most rated feed I realized there was a dust up regarding a post. I read Kelly's post and the comment thread, which was by then, substantial.
We are all entitled to free speech and add to that the "tone-deafness" that online writing sometimes brings to the picture, well, interesting things happen.
I think this dust up mirrors previous ones which usually deal with the definitions of what makes good writing/amateur writing/professional writing and so on that has plagued OS. Every time this subject is touched upon tempers flare.
I forgot something. @neilpaul: I could not agree more. The oft-expressed idea that a post can "make" people feel inadequate has nothing to do with the author and everything to do with the person reading it. No one has that much power unless you give it to them.
I got in later Saturday night, skimmed the dust-ups and opted out. A lesson once learned the hard way. Certainly there was no need to read between the lines of Caitlin's post. Her message was clear and her tone duly noted. From any vantage point, it's not the message in itself but how it is delivered. As you say, that goes for comments as well blog posts.

I have visualized the imaginary lines drawn in the sand here and though I could speculate on the answers, I still wonder ... Why?
Who benefits?
Good post and all of it makes sense. I always think that when someone needs to or seems to act superior they don't always have a clear picture of themselves. It makes me feel sad more than anything. I feel embarrassed for them.
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."

Plato
I was off solving world hunger..but I did manage to log on after several of the blog parodies had been written, and I wondered if I had missed some sort of Open Call about something. I didn't really find any of them very funny, but again..I figured I was missing the ground zero blog. Today someone linked me to it. Had I read it the first day, I would have probably done the same thing..thought..Oh my--and left it at that. That's what I did today. Even though I knew what it was and what it engendered..it didn't interest me enough to read it all the way through. I don't have fifteen reasons for doing..anything..really. All I need is one good one, and for blogs that's the one. It has to interest me. Hers didn't. Yours did. Thanks!
cartouche, this is a very reasonable post, and I agree with most of it. I myself had Caitlin as a favorite and when this post came out, I read it early on, didn't like the tone, felt scolded and de-favorited her. That was the extent of my initial reaction.
When the pile-on happened, I did encourage the perpetrators because it was a mob mentality and I admit it, it was fun to be in the mob. Guilty of the OS disease, here. But I didn't think that the majority of the comments were that personal. I think most reacted to the blog, not the blogger. That she put some negative aspects of herself on display was her mistake, since they became available for comment.
Big Salon is no longer fun to comment on because they are almost exclusively mean-spirited ad-hominem attacks on the article author and each other. I don't think OS comes anywhere near that level of viciousness, thank god, and I think these dustups are mostly on the level of middle-school playground tantrums, nothing more. Just my opinion.
I didn't see the post and ensuing melee until this morning, but I am always interested (though rarely a participant--they seem to happen more on weekends, when I am here less, among other things) in these events. I also noted the turn in tone within the space of one comment. Online communication does seem to reveal what we infer or interpret as readers and commenters as much or even more than the blogger's intent--good point.
My reaction to Ms. Kelly's post was similar to yours. Before I began reading the comments, I was fearful of what I might find there though I have long since stopped being surprised at the level of perceived personal injury some seem to feel. Inflicted, no less, by someone they do not know and who doesn't know them in a post that singled no one out. Ms. Kelly was simply stating her opinion on what she likes, or in this case doesn't like, to read. I don't usually comment on a post written about another post, but your critique of the events is too thought-provoking to ignore. Hat's off, my dear.
I would suggest you go back and read her first comment to scanner . Her post had been up barely one hour and she got all snarky in her first comment. The gloves came off after that. Ms. Kelly knew exactly what she was doing with her post - being provocative. She as much as said so in the post itself - in fact - she did say so.

Her closing line asked for opinions. She got 'em. Let's move on.
This is very nearly a perfect assessment of what I witnessed here on OS this weekend. That we are all still talking/writing about it means it touched a core somewhere in all of us.

I get that people like to be cruel (I don't -- reason makes for a far better tool) but your metaphor of Tucson is precisely right. Words/guns: does the weapon matter if you are uncivil in any way??

Thanks for a great, well-written and reasoned post. Rated and I'll read you more often now.
I was also think about WSFTC and a VIVIDLY remember her debut and subsequent turn-around (after retreating for a month lol To this day, I don't really know what made her leave. but it is sad that she is gone. And poor JK! Only just back to read and comment and being harrassed already. JK's comments alone are better than many posts.

I saw nothing wrong with Caitlin's post, but then again, I read her work regularly and have respect for her as a writer, and I am accustomed to her voice. I left a favorable comment well before the brou-ha-ha broke out and I stand by it. I also stand by the comment I made in emma's post that "I was flabbergasted at this weekend's harsh response to a post to which I sincerely commented favorably. I, for one, appreciate the fact that we have professional writers and journalists and English professors among us, and that they share their expertise."

In the meantime, a well-liked member of the community obtained her first paid writing job from the exposure she's gained here on OS. I shudder to think what any editors looking in to review her work would have seen flowing through the feeds this weekend! But the good news is, OS still works, and OS still has some great writers. Present company included :-)

I hope Caitlin doesn't get run off.
One more thing: Writing -- professional writing -- is not a game for the thin-skinned. Caitlin's had books published and I'm sure she's had her share of bad reviews. My books (and especially my movies) have certainly been trashed more than once, perhaps deservedly so it. Who cares?. Comes with the territory. If you're going to put it out there, you're always setting yourself up. I'm sure Caitlin is not exactly cowering in a corner due to yesterday's comments.

@cartouche: I know you've been a restaurant critic, and I know you love fine food and gourmet cooking, so I was hoping that you -- of all people -- would give me a serious tongue-lashing on today's post. You didn't. Please take a shot. I'm begging you.
Grrr please excuse the typos :-(
What Grif said. I guess I'm not in the mood for a scolding today, even as part of some hypothetical collective.
Reasonable, well-stated post, Cartouche, but you didn't mention the triumph Caitlin's comment thread provided me when none other than the venerable J.K. Brady, seconded by her aide-de-camp emma peel 2, crowned me "King of OS." I'm still aglow with this honor, altho I haven't a clue how they learned of my royal lineage.
C, thanks for this post. I is an important one; it is how we build community here at OS.
I concur with grif. The post was offensive and irritating to many who were equally entitled to respond in any way that they saw fit.

Most of the ensuing madness was partially spontaneous fun for fun's sake. But all of it was at the expense of a person who attacked a lot of us while promoting herself.

The repeated and rude use of "you" and "Your" sealed her fate with me. She should have left the finger pointing out of it.

Such errors in writing and judgment deserve backwash of great and hilarious proportions.

There should be more good writing advice posts. But the best help writers make effort to respect the feelings of their audience, to get to the point and to humble themselves and earn the respect that they crave.
Like someone once said to me,"If you want to be a writer, you have to have the skin of a walrus."
I didn't read her post until after a couple other posts pointed in that direction. I thought, eh, cold and probably not well received, and moved on. Too bad it's a body pile. Caitlin has shown herself to be a good writer offering writing and publishing advice, as have several other writer bloggers here who do this professionally.
I write for fun and experience, and so I didn't take it to heart, because I don't expect her to like my work and not hurt she doesn't want to. A lot of folks on here are good and still not going to make it in the professional world of paid writing, and not sure why. I didn't know her well enough to PM and ask about the tone, sorry someone else didn't. Sometimes it comes off worse than we think, I know that happens with my patients who are already defensive about their bad habits. Thanks for being classy Cartouche.
Well said. I was also one of the early readers...I think I commented in the third or fourth place. Later, when I went back, I felt rather stunned actually. Personally, I'm not one for being PC or being overly, nauseatingly "civil." It's taken me a long time in my life to allow myself to speak honestly and openly and strongly - whether people agree with me or not. I also love debate, and new ideas and real conversation, so I don't expect or even desire everyone in my life (or those kind enough to comment on my posts) to agree with me. Most of all, I respect honesty. But the pile-up on Caitlin Kelly's blog really threw me a bit. I'm not a confrontational person by nature, but again, I don't recoil from differing opinions, even strong ones - yet I felt strangely disheartened by the whole thing. And, what with the Jets losing yesterday, it added up to not such a good day. Anyway, thanks for this post, it is much appreciated by me.
rated
I'm sure you're very earnest and all, cartouche, but I just don't think this post is at all necessary. There were a few people who got way too huffy over what she wrote, and then there were a few people who got way too huffy about the people who got way too huffy.

That's life. I prefer to sit back and joke about it all. It's free entertainment, and great fun! Being provocative is usually something people do by choice, and there is no such thing as bad publicity.

To refer to "the people of OS" as if there is some juggernaut at work here, or to talk about THOSE WHO MAKE THE RULES as if there is such a phenomenon--both thoughts are ludicrous.

I checked with Cindy, and she agrees with me! Er, wait a minute...

*YELLP*
Hmm. I think the conflating of what was said on Ms. Kelly's post and what happened in Tuscon is wrongheaded and careless hyperbole. If you don't believe me, I can show you the graves of friends who would have loved it if Iraqi insurgents were throwing words. And you speak of word control?

Now, I don't go in for "dust-ups" here (I may have commented on one or two in the two years I've been here), but I stand by my sharp and pointy criticism of Ms. Kelly's negative and cynical post.
I'm gonna leave a link to my response to Caitlin for anyone who missed it. That was written with sheer joie de vivre and Puckish glee. If anyone finds it offensive, all I can say is the intent was to crack some jokes, start a comment party, and get attention. It succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, and gave me a free respite from my worries over my best friend's cancer, unceasing medical bills, and a deteriorating job situation.

Next day, I thoughtfully analyzed the reaction to her advice, and I'll leave that link too. Other than the headline, chosen simply to attract eyeballs, it's not a silly piece like the first one was.

But scolding people is fun, and attracts attention too.
@Matt: I'm no one's aide de camp as you put it. My ego is far too large for that.
@xenonli xl: Who exactly did Caitlin attack? I saw no names in her post. She mentioned up front that she had many favourites here and the list was varied. It always amuses me when people say no "harm" was done and people "deserved" to be called cunts and have their integrity attacked simply because some people can't help but project all their inadequacies/lack of self esteem onto others. Trust me, if it was done to you, you would not be laughing.
While nobody can totally control other people's reactions to us and our writing, a professional should have some skill in the matter of crafting his or her words so they are pretty likely to be received in a certain way. Amateur writers can babble to themselves, but a professional is writing to convey something and make an impression. It seems to me that Caitlin made an avoidable misstep and, when it was, so to speak, brought to her attention, she doubled down. Thus the suspicion voiced here and there that, for whatever reason, she did it deliberately (to stir up high readership or whatever). (I don't think that - I think it was just a lapse in judgement.)
For Catherine Forsythe -

Quote Investigator is a fantastic site for combating the erroneous quote attributions that proliferate on the Internet. Read this for the correct attribution for your quote. ACK! Not being condescending, just a righteous nit-picker! Fight back against Internet factoids!
Well, you probably saw my response on Emma peel 2's blog about my two word response to Caitlin's piece. I went back and reread it, again, for the 3rd time, and although I don't much like bullies and mean spirited comments, I'll stick with my initial and visceral response to what she wrote.

I did read her bio this time around and it's clear that she's one tough cookie, which might explain her writing tone. I just don't know. If I were she I would try to learn something from this experience, like, maybe, if you speak respectfully to people they will be more likely to do the same. Maybe that's not her style? Who knows? I do know that reading her advice, responding to it, and reading the responses to the response have mostly "made me" feel bad. Since that isn't my goal when coming here, or anywhere for that matter, I think I'll be one the next train out if here. Again.
I agree with Cranky -- I think anonymity is sometimes the worst enemy of civility, and the "post this comment" button is far too easy to push. I'm also still pissed at John Blumenthal for his Jane Austen post, which was unforgivable.
I'm just here for the hot tub!! **Jumps in** My back is killing me!! All that hissing and arching my back, god!!!

:D
Very balanced piece, Cartouche. And I much appreciated the OS historical background. This flame-throwing costs us good writers. I guess it's a fine line: I appreciate the power behind the community putting someone in check when needed. In this case, I think it went a bit too far. I just hope Caitlin stays around.
It was the title of her blog that drew me in so when I read the post and found it annoyed the hell out of me, I spoke my peace as to why and that was it. Apparently so did some others. And some others. And some others.

Some who read it thought it was a mean spirited, provocative post. I've detailed my feelings about it to her and in my blog, particularly in my last response to Emma. (I closed my comments because I didn't want to keep this going. I thought it might be beating a dead horse. )

There were ample opportunities for Ms Kelly to clarify her words especially if she thought she was being misinterpreted and/or "piled on" and/or treated unfairly, particularly early on. But it's possible she was busy elsewhere.

Caitlin Kelly is not above being criticized. As far as I could see her post was terribly condescending, irritatingly so. And she caught hell for it.

As for the parodies and the follow up comments, I thought they were hilarious AND brilliant. That post of Ms Kelly begged to be parodied. And it was, by the best!

Again, I'd like to suggest she might have come down to ground level on Saturday night and commented on one or two of those parodies and at least tried to see the humor (or the attempts at it) and maybe, MAYBE recognized that she failed to hit the target she was aiming at and that she came off poorly. She might have acknowledged that she missed by a mile.

But she didn't.

And the band played on.
@Foolish Monkey: Of course she's not above criticism, no one is although plenty here object mightily to even a hint of it directed at them even though they dish it out to people they dislike freely enough. There is a huge difference between criticism and the level of invective and spite that was hurled at Caitlin. That you think anyone "deserves" to be called four-letter words and have their reputation impugned for expressing their OWN opinion surprises me. Not sure why because it is a common enough occurrence here. Call me naive.
i spell bad. (okay sometimes i do it on purpose.) I punctuate worser. I think spellcheck is for sissies. I fear people take me for an idiot, and especially fear those who have all sorts of rules and regulations for pleasing them. I don't want to get in a pickle, i wanna ride my motorcycle. U know what I'm sayin' Dorothy?

I just bought some new pots. Kisses...
@Bellwether: Now that's the kind of response I like! But "unforgivable?" Couldn't we bury the hatchet at some pompous gourmet restaurant recommended by cartouche?
OS is not a high and low class society. It's all low! And anyone who dares to ride a high horse can expect a come-uppance.
Especially when they are insulting and condescending! Even me.
If the foo......!
Having been a target I feel for her. I felt she was being overbearing. I left a very short message that she took me to school on. I did not respond, although I should have.
Youse guys is all amatchures.
I got enuff personalitees tuh start a gang war all by my lonesome.
Wuna dese days I'm gonna.
Yool see.
Emma I never said that she deserved amything. I commented to her as I saw fit. And in fact, I didn't comment twice. I said my piece, looked back once to see if she responded and when she didn't I didn't return until I read trigs post.

I don't like ANY dustups when they go too far. What I wrote about last night in my blog was the parodies. I had no idea the responses to her blog had gone so raw.

As I said to you here and at my blog, I believe she could have addressed the comments and the bad feelings her post generated and calmed things down. But she didn't. In fact, she went in the opposite direction.

That was unfortunate because I believe it made matters worse. But that is not the same as saying she deserved to be treated badly and I hope you can recognize that.
A very thoughtful post, Cartouche. I stand by the two comments I made on Caitlin's blog.

1) I heart Brussels sprouts! xox
2) Snip is toasted! Walnuts are a nice edition. (sic) xox

The second comment was written upside down and backward and addition read as edition. xox
Wouldn't you just love to hear what Ryan (Placebostudman) would've had to say?
I didn't take CK's original post personally (even though she said "you" and "yours") because I do all the things she suggests, and she still doesn't read my blog. We don't read each other; that post was the very first of hers that I had ever noticed. I also do not approve of name-calling, still a lot of the retorts were clever and fun. I am sure she can take it.
I missed the whole damn thing. I was busy writing a story.
rated, excellent view on the whole situation.
@Emma, evidently I was misinformed.

@J.K., after all the money I spent to get my Hapsburg lip reduced you still saw right thru me. No wonder you're a general.

@Bellwether, I tried your recipe tonite for kumquat pie. It was the first pie of any kind I've ever made. We shall try it in five more minutes. "Expressing" the seeds was the only tedius challenge.
The OS Snarks are breathing their own exhaust fumes and eating their young; once again.

This is tiresome.
Yes
and
there's always going to be people who enjoy arguing just because they feel like it.
Unfortunately, my 12 yr. old is one of them--I'm hoping she'll grow out of it.
Wise and thoughtful words cartouche. You da man.

Something I admire is the resulting introspection after this event. Caitlin did point her finger, but then we pointed ours back. Pointing mine at myself, I wonder why I took the time to comment, or even continue reading. There was another blogger, who seems gone now, who posted similar puffy strutty I'll tell you people how it is posts, and I never commented, and stopped visiting his blog after the first few. Why did Caitlin's post hook me, when his did not? I don't have an answer yet, but I want to think about it, because that says something about me.
I have only read one of her posts that seem to cause quite a stir...Did I miss more? I did not know about tomreedtoon...I noticed that he was a troll...but seemed harmless. HMMMM.
I just went back and read further into the comments over there...hadn't realized how much worse it got after I made my comment, which was similar to the point of view you espouse here. I was shocked to see the "C" word hurled at our fellow OS citizen. That may be my least favorite word...puts my teeth on edge just to think of it.

I disagree with the commentor who said that it was not appropriate to link this dust-up with the Arizona shooting. Inosfar as it harkens back to the civility of tone issue that was raised when the tradgedy occured, to my mind it is appropos. True, there is no direct line between the nasty political rhetoric of late and the shooter's motivations, but the fact remains...nasty breeds nasty. It's not hard to imagine someone, inflamed from such hate mongering, doing something similar.

What was I saying again...got off track. Oh, your work here is always completely excellent. I appreciate your example.

Peace, love and hair grease!
Patricia, this is a very kind post, with a good deal of common sense. I like a good deal about what I read in all our friend's work, and I hope everyone stays around, giving opinions, writing stories, and doing the best they can. Making something from nothing is the key...Is it not?

Creativity always comes to our rescue. I see some of the most sensitive, and yes, perhaps angry folks on this forum channel their energy into becoming better writers (many times they soar gloriously).

Perhaps Neilpaul also has it right. It gets down to ones level of self-esteem:

"If you find someone condescending that is because you lack healthy self-esteem. I never think people are condescending to me. That would be absurd."
Well said, perfectly in fact. I didn't read the post you're referring to. I may have, but then didn't comment because I didn't like it too much, and honestly, I like OS, but don't want to get THAT involved. I used to be more involved and more concerned about what people thought of my writing, but not anymore. I remember Who Will Feed The Cat, and thought she was stuck up at first. Then she commented quite favorably on one of my posts and PM'd me, and she was so nice. I've made a lot of friends on here, no real enemies either. There are a lot of people who did get their feelings hurt badly and left, Umbrellakinesis comes to mind, and I've left before. It's just not worth getting so mad. If you know something's going to upset you on OS, avoid it. Good post Cartouche! You hurt my feelings once, but I kind of asked you to, but you're really very nice and levelheaded.
If anyone ever wanted to take issue with me and my rambling comments, they would be well within their rights.
Gary, with all sincere respect, I cannot let that Neilpaul comment go without a comment. It's pure hogwash to say that if I see someone as condescending it implies I feel insecure. I can see quite objectively that someone is being condescending without this observation having any bearing at all on my own self-esteem. Further, to say that it would be absurd to find people condescending to me can be taken as arrogance or as ignorance. A condescending tone requires only one participant - the condescender. If I were to say, "Jane, you ignorant slut," I would be condescending to Jane, whether or not Jane was ignorant or a slut. By Neilpaul's argument, Jane would have to feel ignorant or slutty in order for the statement to be condescending. That would be absurd.
I'm kind of glad I missed the drama of that whole thread. I just found it a few minutes ago and read through it.

There are a couple of people I follow on OS who tend to write with a bit of an ego, or with a sense of writing-styled name dropping. I may even do it myself from time to time (I know I've mentioned my own novels every now and then when talking about writing). But in the end, my reason for being on OS is because I like being part of the community, and reading as much as writing. I realize I'm not one of the big names here, nor am I one of the people who readers flock to whenever a new blog post appears from him. But I love to write, and I love to read. OS is perfect for that.

I'm sorry whenever someone alienates himself/herself for whatever reasons. I hated it when Trotter (or whatever his name was) went kind of nuts and disappeared, and then reappeared, or whatever his status is these days. Some people live for the drama. I live for the writing (and the reading, which goes hand in hand).
I hope yours is the last word cartouche. I liked the perspective and given that you're a hard act to follow, we can all get back to our normal business.
Well said. Rated. :-)
Hello Matt, thanks for your respectful comment. I take Neil's comment to mean if someone condescends to me, they are condescending to a perception and mistakenly forming a judgement. If the condescension has no cause in taking something from me, or disordering my life in some way, then it's irrelevant.
Some people think being "strong" is lashing out, whether with fists or words.

Others think being "strong" is showing restraint, whether physically or verbally.

If we can't even agree on something so simple, ain't much chance we're going to agree on much else.

I wasn't here for the brouhaha, but she had some good points.
Pity it inspired confrontation instead of conversation.
Huh, how about that? I had no idea there was a Caitlin Kelly here.
Now I must read Caitlin's column, but I can relate to this. You would be shocked at the number of nasty PM's I receive, presumably because I have already declared that indecent comments will be deleted. It's quite silly to me. What is anyone's vested interest in someones opinion? Folks take things a little too personally...that's my 2 cents.
I guess I was unintentionally ignoring OS over the weekend because until I read your post, I didn't know about this. In the end, the post, the comments and the tone of the entirety of the conversation is way too much like a car accident I saw returning from the New Year's weekend. Nobody died. One car was literally flipped over upside down on top of another car. There were four other cars involved and by the time we passed the scene we had been tied up in traffic for over two hours. There were still tow trucks, Sheriff's cruisers, burning safety flares all over the ground as we crept by; people standing in clumps, and two lanes of traffic trying to creep by a wreck that took up a lot of the six lanes of Interstate 5.

Just like at that accident, we all play our roles here. I am kind of disgusted that I volunteered to rubberneck at the tail end of it. It just slows down traffic and makes me feel sick to my stomach.

This kind of stuff makes me feel more and more like being a recluse isn't such a bad idea.
There is a wonderful film called Ridicule that exposes the intellectual pretensions of the court of France, where wit was a weapon and one's worth was often measured in one's ability to skewer and savage another person. It has been my observation -- and, I regret to say, experience -- that the pleasure derived from humiliating another is short-lived, and the aftertaste is lingering and bitter for both.

As someone much wiser than I am once said, sarcasm poisons both the victim and the deliverer.
A thoughtful and intelligent analysis--exactly what was needed. Thank you. :) Rated
You lost me after about two paragraphs when you compared the Kelly dustup to Tucson. Good grief.
I completely missed this dust-up until reading your post. I've rarely read Caitlin Kelly, because her work hasn't grabbed me. I was curious to find out more, so I read her post and comments.

I hate to see bullying in comments, however, she really did set herself up for this. Her tone was arrogant and condescending to many of the people on OS, like the hard-nosed editor with a dose of Simon Cowell thrown in for extra acidity.

I don't think I'll be back to read her work anytime soon.
people can be pretty harsh sometimes, especially when they are anonymous and forget that.
haughty is a more accurate word than condescending. if you wish to imbue fear with no consciousness of the fact, you are haughty, (blatantly and disdainfully proud) and you are going to piss folks off.
Love this! Like emma peel 2 said, no one has that much power unless you give it to them. Writing should be about various opinions, it's an art that should not be condemned. Being new to OS, the comments on that post almost scared me off...it was a little frightening. But I love the site and am here to stay.
I am really looking forward to skiing there. It is so very pretty and amazing there. Hopefully I can visit there one day.
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