After the PR disaster of Vietnam, I believe the U.S. government gave its policy about reporting deaths on the other side (military or civilian) a deep overhaul. IIRC it's policy not to publish those numbers--or even comment on estimates. Sort of like the ban on photos of returning caskets.

Sick, wrong, and probably never going to change.

I think if we knew all of these tolls, ours, theirs, everyone's then we would have a different perspective on this war as a whole. American media as "free" as it is is highly censored to what the powers that be think is appropriate. Of course these powers that be know more of the truth than we do. I have friends who have experienced or have parents that have experienced medias in other countries, European and Middle Eastern that say that the news is much more grim and gruesome, but more truthful about the life and death of Americans as well as others. It's a little sad how we are one of the most technologically advanced countries, one of the more organized countries and yet we continue to allow ourselves to be lied to. It's ignorant and selfish.

if you don't vote, you don't count.

only if you can threaten the status and livelihood of politicians do you become worth counting.

You are so right about this, Nobody cares. There are estimates from 30,000 to over a million. There are at least 2 million who have fled to the slums of Damascus or Jordan. This is just part of the brainwashing that has been proven effective in putting us all asleep to this issue. Evidently, an Iraqi life is even worth reporting. And injuries or reports on the wounded, forget even trying to find out any information on this. This is a national outrage and disgrace. I am continually disappointed on how the liberals ignore this and get sucked into the latest distraction from Sarah Palin shit, to Joe Lieberman, to Rick Warren, Gay Rights, the Illinois senatorial stuff. All the while our tax dollars are still killing hundreds? thousands? millions? who in the hell knows how many Iraqi people all with names, and feelings and children. Thanks for writing this but nobody will really read it.

Welcome to the Fog of War.

When people think about war, they think about soldiers. Battles. Tanks and planes and men with guns shooting it out. Yes, this may be where the decisive outcomes of conflict are determined.

But war has always, always, effected civilians more harshly. The most significant and long-term effects of war are those that are born out of the collective suffering of the civil societies that have to endure them. No America will ever know what it was like to live under Saddam Hussein, endure American bombing, Shiite-Sunni ethnic cleansing, and laborious reconstruction of their country. That is a narrative that we have participated in, but are incapable of fully understanding.

It isn't that we don't "care" about civilian deaths. Its that we are awkwardly divorced from them. Logistics and body counts aside, we can't understand the full story. So it goes with any other human tragedy. If you haven't directly experienced it, then you don't own it, and you can't really know it.

Justin, it's not simply a matter of the fog of war. I think it was implicit in my post that American civilian deaths would be (and are) counted very very closely, whereas Iraqi civilian deaths have not been. Are you disputing the assertion that closer attention is paid to our own civilian deaths?

You say: "So it goes with any other human tragedy. If you haven't directly experienced it, then you don't own it, and you can't really know it." Unfortunately this is a difficult philosophical argument to sustain because of two implications: 1) I cannot make decisions or judgments without complete firsthand knowledge of a situation, 2) in this formulation, everyone must have a different experience of reality (the ideas of owning and knowing suggest individuality of experience and interpretation) and no objective facts exist. This simultaneously mystifies and normalizes the horrors or war. We've never been to Iraq and lived it, so we can have no idea what it's like. Civilian death during war is not just like any other tragedy, not like having a heart attack and dying.

You say: "It isn't that we don't "care" about civilian deaths. Its that we are awkwardly divorced from them. Logistics and body counts aside, we can't understand the full story." I think it IS that we don't care about civilian deaths, or at least we don't want to know about them. Isn't counting the dead a way to show caring?

Also, the laborious reconstruction? They have thrown away over $50 billion in waste, corruption, incompetence and corruption.

"1) I cannot make decisions or judgments without complete firsthand knowledge of a situation, 2) in this formulation, everyone must have a different experience of reality (the ideas of owning and knowing suggest individuality of experience and interpretation) and no objective facts exist. This simultaneously mystifies and normalizes the horrors or war. "

Precisely. Strangely distant yet sadly commonplace. If that sounds like a frustrating and unacceptable structure for understanding something, thats because it is. This is why wars (what I meant when I said "tragedies") happen. Its too easy for those of us who aren't involved to turn away and choose not to dwell on the bad news, even though everyone knows that its happening. It is difficult and unsatisfying to analyze the facts of a war and try and put the pieces together.

Perhaps that is the same thing as not caring. But I don't know of any war where the civilian death toll was known with the same accuracy as the soldier's.

Of course it's not known with the same accuracy, as civilians are not documented in the same way that the military is, and for other logistical reasons. But that does not account for all of the flaws in the statistics or the total lack of interest in understanding the dimensions of the issue. I think it's simply a way of excusing any real attempt at accounting for the civilian deaths caused by an unpopular war.

Chris,
I'm with you on the Iraqi civilian idea -- thanks for posting this, it needs to be talked about more. I've read terrifying estimates, upward of 1 million deaths from reputable public research groups.

My feeling this -- It boils down to a perceived difference in the value of lives. To many of us an American life is worth more than an Iraqi life, just as German lives were worth less to Russians in WWII than were Russian lives. "Ours" are real, "theirs" are just statistics. Hence (in my opinion) the reason you never start or support wars for ANY reason, 9/11 included.

Enjoy Brooklyn, the place rocks.