We went broke paying medical bills--and we're insured
I'm in shock right now. A spouse's cancer diagnosis should be enough for any couple to deal with. But no. I see an impending tsunami of medical bills rushing our way, and there is no escape.
We have health insurance. But we chose the "catastrophic" option for four years, hoping that taking on more risk would save some money. The "catastrophic" option cost us nothing in premiums, while the "richer" option would have cost $4,000/year in premiums deducted from my paycheck. I could see no way to afford that, not on our income of $48,900 gross last year (I'm the sole support of a family of five.)
The "catastrophic" option had a $1,000 deductible and the obligation to pay 50% of the next $20,000. Okay, $11,000 would be steep, but what was the likelihood of that happening? We were both healthy. We took the gamble, and for three years, we won.
Along comes year four. We're one month into the 2008 fiscal year, that's back last August. Suddenly, Will is in excruciating pain. Emergency surgery is required for a perianal cyst. Below are the medical bills for this, captured from my computer screen from the claims administrator. A quick explanation. Allowed amount is what the insurer considers "reasonable & customary," and that usually brings the cost down significantly. Paid amount is what the insurer actually is responsible for paying, taking deductibles and the percentage the insured person is responsible for into consideration. Patient liability is what we the insured must pay.
Cha-ching:

So far, not so bad. We can manage $1668.
But that's just the start. The surgeon recommends a routine colonoscopy for Will. Our insurer tells us they cover it at 100%--this is an extra perk written into our insurance plan. Okay, let's do it. Will's not looking forward to it, but he finally schedules his colonoscopy for December 27, 2008.
I go with him that day. There's a jarring little caveat emptor sign that I notice. "Hey," I say to Will, pointing out the sign. "Look at that." The sign says that patients should check their insurance coverage. Most insurance plans that pay for a colonoscopy screening at 100% will get stingy on you if it turns out you have a problem. Then, buddy, all bets are off. Then it's considered a "therapeutic" colonoscopy, and it's subject to deductibles and coinsurance. "Talk about kicking someone when they're down," I say. Will just shakes his head. He lived 22 years in New Zealand and 23 in Australia. Both countries offer absolutely free health care to anyone who needs it, even visitors. There is a nominal charge for prescription drugs. Will still hasn't gotten over our having to pay so much for his emergency surgery back in August. He was, and still is, horrified at the barbaric way the U.S. treats those who are ill.
Fast forward two hours. Will is emerging from his anesthetized sleep. The colonoscopy is over? That wasn't so bad. Except, wait, there's the surgeon. He begins saying words that neither Will nor I can grasp. Will has a medium-sized mass in his colon. The doctor recommends that eight to ten inches of Will's colon be removed. This will require a five to seven day hospital stay. We should do this soon.
"Are you sure it's malignant?"
He nods with certainty. The biopsy will identify exactly what kind of malignancy, but he's sure. He wants Will to have something called a cat pet scan, to see if there are any other tumors. Will and I consult briefly. Will's $1000 deductible is paid for the calendar year. If we do this right away, we won't have to start 2009 paying his deductible all over again. We schedule the surgery for December 31. Hell of a way to ring in the new year.
Cha-ching:
Above, you can see the charges for the cat pet (first item) and the three separate bills we received once the colonoscopy was no longer covered at 100%. In total, we have paid out just over $3,100 so far. That won't break us. Yet. Our savings, ever minuscule despite developing frugal living habits into an art form, can cover this amount.
Will's hospital stay is only five days. Knowing, as he does, that we must pay 50% of reasonable and customary charges, he valiantly wears a track into the carpeting, walking with his IV pole and assorted tubes dangling, around and around the unit. He endures pain, asking for medication as little as he possibly can. That surely helps him to leave sooner. The very day he is finally allowed to eat, he is discharged. For the next week, I stay home from work in order to nurse him, and wait nervously for the EOB's (explanation of benefits, from the insurer) and bills to arrive.
Cha-ching:
Wow, we've got some problems here. There's a doctor we've never heard of on the list of people we owe money to. What's the story? When we check, it turns out she is the assistant our surgeon always uses. She is also not a preferred provider. Under our catastrophic plan, no benefits are paid to non-preferred providers. We're on the hook for this. But wait--we had no choice in this. We didn't even know. How could we have avoided this? Answer--we couldn't have, but nonetheless, the bill goes to us. And our insurer wouldn't even apply "reasonable and customary" to it, so it's the full amount we owe.
Then, take a look at that whopping hospital bill. Yikes! Our share of this brings us to the $11,000 stop-loss limit (actually more, because of the non-participating doctor.) Bad news: we owe various medical providers $12,684. Good news: insurance now pays at 100%. More bad news: with the start of 2009, our liability starts all over again.
Wait a minute. We always thought $11,000 would be unlikely, but at least that's the most we would pay. Wrong. I can transfer us out of that catastrophic plan and into the richer plan, where $4,000 in annual premiums sounds pretty darn good now. But my school district operates on a July - June fiscal year. I can opt out of this catastrophic plan, but it won't take effect until July 1. Oops, slight miscalculation. All this time, it wasn't an $11,000 maximum risk we chose to take, it was a $22,000 maximum risk since our deductibles and coinsurance are based on calendar years. And, by the way, that's for each of us. If both of us had been diagnosed with expensive and life-threatening illnesses that straddled two calendar years, we could have been looking at $44,000. Suddenly, that catastrophic plan seems deceptive. Should an employer of integrity even offer this?
I won't burden you with any more cha-chings. Suffice it to say that cancer treatments are not cheap. Two weeks ago, Will had a scan called an otreoscan, and I found out today that the charge for it is $9,000, of which $7,500 is considered "reasonable and customary." Our share? $4,500. Yesterday, he had an MRI. I have no idea what that will cost. As matters stand right now, we are well on our way to ringing up another $11,000 in medical expenses for 2009. July 1 can't come soon enough.
We've looked into bill forgiveness/relief. The hospital, our biggest creditor by far, checked two programs offered to those who can't pay their medical bills. We don't qualify. We make "too much money."
If any health care reform is in the works, it will not come soon enough to help people like us. I offer this story in hopes that people who rail against the evils of socialized medicine will understand that catastrophic illness happens, and even if you're covered by insurance, that may not be enough to save you from financial disaster. In a civilized country where the basic needs of all are met, Will and I would have only his illness to worry about--not medical bills and how in the world they'll ever be paid.
Will and I have discussed his leaving me to move back to New Zealand, thereby avoiding future medical expenses. At this point, though, we are not sure New Zealand would take him back. Besides, once he's there, who knows when, if ever, he could return? What a terrible choice to consider. What sort of compassionless society do we live in, where such choices are even entertained?
Yes, there's a call to action in conclusion. Please share our story with your friends and relatives when they start griping that the lazy no-accounts who can't pay their medical bills because they can't handle money are going to lead this country into the nightmare of socialized medicine. Hard-working people who have lived prudently are getting hurt, too. Something must be done--whether Medicare for all, or some other relief. Devastating illnesses strike without regard to status or money in the bank. You could be next.


Salon.com
Comments
We just looked at each other. I wanted to burst out laughing at my own GODDAMNED STUPIDITY. And I wanted to cry. I wanted to beat my head against the nearest wall 50 times. Too late. Too late. Too late.
Mary, thanks for your concern. Will is doing well, healthwise. I need to be grateful and keep my focus on that.
Cindy, I hope you both come through this, I don't know what else to say
What about moving the whole family to New Zealand?
We went through the exact same thing for two years with my husband's cancer. Really, I'm sorry. I know how doubly devastating this is.
Catamite, we honestly have thought about it. But Will hasn't lived in NZ for 30 years. I teach, but learning disabilities special ed is not an area of education focused on by most other countries. Not only that, but my kids would all throw fits to be dragged away from their friends. They'd probably opt to live with their dad instead (and he'd be less than thrilled about that.)
Plus, my 15-year-old just announced I have to take him to see the band concert tonight. So what the hell.
Mrs. M., thanks for your concern. Now you know why your posts have resonated with me.
t&d, I am unfamiliar with your situation. How is your husband? Is he a cancer survivor? Please god, I hope so.
I'll bump this myself, again (or try to) once I get home from the band concert.
I deeply appreciate you, small group of fellow readers, writers and well-wishers.
I hate to think of what's around the corner for my bride and I, and we have a hell of a corner to turn.
I feel impotent, I wish I could do more than send you good thoughts which do exactly jack.
barry
The taxpayers already pay 58% of health care expenses in this country. On a per capita basis, that is more than ALL spending on health care in all but three other countries. With all the taxes we pay, we could EASILY indemnify everyone in the country, if we would stop wasting money on procedures and treatments which have not been shown to produce clinically significant benefits.
But with literally trillions of dollars at stake, there are huge vested interests which will fight any attempt at meaningful reform. Thanks for putting a human face on this problem.
My thoughts are with you.
Will just heard from a friend who is also a cancer patient. John says that at Obama's website, there is a request for people to leave their health insurance horror stories. I will try to find out more.
It it horrible, cruel and frankly, unbecoming to a country that considers itself the world's beacon for democracy and social justice. And please don't beat yourself up for your $10,000 mistake. How could you possibly think clearly with the stress of your husband being ill, the bills and everything else you still had to manage? The fact that you survived this with your brain intact is amazing to me.
I wish you and your daughter good health. You might want to consider telling your tale to Obama at his website. When I have a chance to look it up, I will post it here in the comments. But if someone else finds it first, please feel free to do the honors.
I work in the medical travel industry (taking people abroad for affordable health care), and I hear stories like yours every day. It's shaming, to be from a country that treats health as a privilege for the wealthy, and illness as a just punishment if you're not rich. I did not realize how unique the US is in its fucked upedness regarding health care until I got in the medical travel business. No other country in the world treats patients the way the US does. And the idea that we pay more in the US b/c the health care is better is a crock - the idea that medicine that costs more is better medicine has been disproved in study after study. Medicine is a global game now - there are fine surgeons everywhere in the world; some train here and practice elsewhere, others train elsewhere and practice here. You can get outstanding treatment - not just in terms of medical quality, but also in terms of compassion and care - in many countries.; there are a dozen excellent options for nearly every major health issue you can think of. My h and I get all of our healthcare abroad. I am only sorry how long I paid the obscenely high COBRA fees out of sheer terror that if I did not, I might get an unlucky roll of the dice and be looking at bills in the hundreds of thousands instead of the tens of thousands.
I am so sorry that you are facing this. You are right - anyone, anyone at all, could be next. Most people lose their health insurance within one month of losing their job due to catastrophic illness. Being insured, as you are well aware, is simply no insurance against the disaster it is to be ill in the US.
As I continue to respond to one at a time, in hopes of bumping this...
I do wish that more insurance companies would be honest about the catastrophic insurance options. They are a terrible choice for anybody who does not already have a nest egg that they are fully prepared to use for medical problems. Because actually, $4000 a year for both of you is really inexpensive for full coverage. The average around here for that kind of coverage is over $12,000 a year.
Very sorry that all this has fallen on your heads. I shall be praying for you.
Monte
My son is 19 and has no medical insurance at all. I have another tale to tell about him--not a lot of money involved, but it's the principle of the thing, that a big hospital would take advantage of him. I will write about that tomorrow.
Will is my domestic god, so we don't have to fear his losing a job. But it sure is that much more of a weight on my shoulders. I'm fortunate to like my teaching gig well enough; in this economic climate, I would not want to be looking elsewhere right now.
All this does nothing to allay your situation. I wish your husband health and your family the means to cope with and prevail over your current troubles. Peace.
I was in hospital for two days for the emergency insertion of a pacemaker last April. The "retail " cost from the COUNTY hospital was over $40,000, including $800 for the ambulance ride.
My out of pocket, excluding drugs, was less than $3,000.
With a high-dollar plan, our costs would have been severe but not a stratospheric as yours.
The rub is that I am a CFO of a small company in North Carolina and companies with less than 50 employees have very little leeway in their choice of plans and even choice of insurance companies. In our part of the state there are only three that will bid on small companies: one is United Health Care, as big a bunch of thieves as anyone has ever seeen. So we use one of the other ones.
I have always opted for the plan that contain a fixed maximum annual of pocket figure. That figure has gone up over the years in order to save on premium increases but no employee will have to pay more than $10.000 in a given year or $20,000 for an entire family in a given year.
And I have always insisted on paying for unlimited lifetime coverage, not the $100,000 or $250,000 that most companies our size opt for.
And when I get complaints about how the co-pays are too high, I just have to tell them that with this plan, they will not be wiped out, they will not lose their houses due to cancer, birth of a premature baby, heart transplant, kidney dialysis, whatever. The cost of purchasing that security for my employees does lead to higher drug co-pays than some of their friends pay, but I am trying to insure them against losing a lifetime's savings or finding themselves so deeply in debt that they can no longer afford medical care.
The down-side: to insure a worker, his or her spouse and children, whether one child or fourteen children, is over $1,500 per month.
I have warehouse employees earning $25,000 per year with medical and dental benefits costing the company $18,000 per year.
We had a layoff at the beginning of the year and the COBRA costs absolutely shocked people.
Maybe I am buying insurance that is too expensive and so few can afford to take advantage of COBRA at these rates. But I look at the long term for all of my employees and think that I am doing the right thing for them and for me.
As an aside, my wife did not hold a job for 19 years as the kids grew up and now has a very low paying job as a teacher aide but she has medical benefits through the State government. If something goes sour at my business (and I am not an owner) and I am suddenly on the street, we have her coverage which is worth it's weight in gold.
OddPotter
I did want to recommend that you look into the Medicaid program in your state. Most people don't know that Medicaid eligibility is not based solely on income, but also on past and current medical bills, and it generally doesn't matter if you have insurance or not. In some cases, Medicaid will pay your health insurance premiums for you (if it's more cost-effective that way) in addition to Medicaid acting as a secondary insurance to pick up any costs left over from the primary insurance.
I hope this helps you to rid yourself of some of the guilt. After all, that $10000 in bills may actually help you get better insurance. ;)
In the meantime, try to think positive, know that there will be people who have been helped because you chose to share your story, and above all, get some rest.
In case you didn't notice, check out the huge difference from the amount the provider charged, and the amount the insurer "allowed". This, folks, is why our hospitals and providers that are not part of a large network are running in the red and consistently need financial help.
Please also note that when you have no insurance coverage, usually termed "self-pay" or similar, you are charged the full amount (assuming that you can even find someone to treat you prior to paying for your non-emergent condition) rather than the "allowed" amount.
Even if you think you have good insurance, do yourself a favor and check the fine print for limitations, exclusions and maximums. When you find them, consider joining those of us who believe in universal coverage (not just universal access).
I live in New Zealand, and it has not been the case for at least 15 years that visitors receive free health care.
The 'free' health care for citizens/residents is great for some illnesses, a nightmare for others. It's more accurate to say that the health care is rationed. There are huge waiting lists for treatments (including for cancer). Two years ago a government analysis of the healthcare system uncovered the fact that from the moment that a woman feels a lump in her breast, the *average* time to get a mammogram at that point was 4 months. If the mammogram uncovered something suspicious, it was another 6 weeks to see a specialist, in my region of the country. So: 5 1/2 months to wait to see whether she has cancer, and then at that point to be put on the waiting list for treatment!
I've lived in both the US and New Zealand. It's certainly beter to have a public health care system, for many illnesses--but my point is that healthcare is damnably expensive nowadays, whether it's paid for by the government through taxes or by the individual, and just simply saying 'public healthcare' doesn't mean that everyone gets all the treatment they need at optimal speed.
I wanted to point out that even if you had taken the more expensive option, you might well be in the same boat. Even the higher level coverage and higher premium plans which have lower total out of pocket limits seemto find a way to ding you for significantly more than whatever limits you expect. As an example, I suffered a stroke in 2007 while covered by a plan which had a $600 annual deductible, and a $3,000 total annual out of pocket limit. Despite the limits, somehow my care for the stroke ended up costing me a bit over $22,000 of the initial $56,000 in bills for a week of hospitalization. So for those who would say that you voluntarily assumed the risk by taking the catastrophic coverage only, I would say it might well have not made much difference. The better the coverage you think you have, the more exclusions and exceptions are hidden in the plan rules.
The devil is truly in the details, and in the case of our current medical care payment system, the devil has the insurers working for him.
Good luck to you.
I appreciate the reminder that hard times are affecting access to medical care across the world. And I'm glad for one more reason for Will to stay put here, with me, where he'll be loved and coddled (as soon as I get off the damn computer.)
i live in maryland where under state law certain tests, mammograms, colonoscopy after age fifty, immunizations, have to be covered by the insurance company based on maryland law. so that kind of "nationalizing" seems like a first step. but i think the type of policy you had is probably the kind the government wants to give you, not the best bluecross/ blue shield policy. if you find yourself in this situation again and i certainly hope you don't, clinical trials maybe a way to go. if you have a chronic condition you get in a study where the exams and medicine are free. well good luck to you. stay healthy
Read Gary Lee's post. Paying more for insurance doesn;t guarantee you won't be driven into bankruptcy. Who understands all the fine print in his insurance policy? I sure don't, and I have a PhD from one of America's top research universities.
We already pay enough in taxes to indemnify everyone in this country, with hundreds of billions left over, if we would cut out waste. To take a random example, consider these calcium channel blockers which, according to the ALLHAT trial, are no better than a generic gentle diuretic, and cost TWETY TIMES AS MUCH. Not to mention the fact that the calcium channel blockers have unwanted side effects like, uh, death.
Read "Overtreated" by Shannon Brownlee, "Worried Sick" by Nortin M. Hadler, M.D., and "Should I Be Tested For Cancer" by H Gilbert Welch, M.D., for loads of other examples of waste in our health care system.
Thank you for sharing your awful situation . You might want to also send a copy to your State Representatives. With Obama's recent decision to tackle healthcare reform, they will be looking for examples from constituents. Our local Congresswoman just contacted us yesterday.
Nothing the government gets involved in turns out well.
They already have mandates to healthcare providers that cost us money. They don't allow a la carte premiums and other such things.
Be careful what you asked for.
http://www.pnhp.org/publications/united_states_national_health_care_act_hr_676.php
"There needs to be human faces attached to this problem, or those in a position to effect changes will not understand that bad health policy heightens the anguish for people in pain."
Unfortunately, those in a position to effect change are as invisible as those that make the decisions about banking practices. We can see right through these people but we don't know who they are. Transparency is KEY. I hope you come through this even stronger than you are. Thank you for sharing this tough story. HIGHLY rated.
We had to travel 1,000 miles to Mayo and the internist called in within less than five minutes of observation, Huntington's Disease. We sent a blood test off the the SAME LAB for confirmation, but Mayo ponyed up a suppliment insurance that kept my out of pocket to less than $150.00 regardless of what my insurance would cover. Still no explaination from my local hospital why they do not offer the same...
When the reporter contacted Patient Accounts, the director hemmed and hawed and fell over her own tongue. Then the article hit the Sunday paper. My name was in it. So was the hemming and hawing from Monmouth. Suddenly the $20K bills stopped coming. No hospital can afford to be made to look ridiculous or cruel, especially when competition among networks is aimed at damaging the patient base of a perceived rival.
I don't know what strategy will work for you. Defiance is a good place to start. Two years ago I wasn't waiting for Obama to be Mr. Fixit. I'm still not. The day I gave up giving a shit about my credit score is the day I freed myself of a sense of obligation to institutional America.
...I will save my own personal 'health insurance hell' story for the open call..
I pray for your husbands full recovery and relief for your family overall. God bless, girl.
I am so sorry for what you are going through - and I can relate. 10 years ago I worked for a healthcare company (bad joke) and was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. I had full coverage with a 3000 deductible - and still paid over $200,00 (or should I say I still am paying) for experimental procedures and drugs. I get discouraged when I think about it - but then I guess my life is worth more than that...
Oh... you didn't GET a $2.5 million bonus on top of your obscene salary? Can you petition the govt for a "bailout"? No?
i wasn't saying that paying more was necessarily the answer, i said making the appropriate insurance choice may have had a different outcome for cindy. you really need to do a side by side comparison and select the one suited to your families needs. what cindy went through is a tough lesson. but having 7 people in the home and chosing a catastrophic plan may not have been the wisest chioce. with insurance unfortunately you have to experience these bad scenarios to learn your lesson. you can't be penny wise and dollar foolish when it come to insurance. you have to ask questions about what's covered, and what if when choosing. to make the leap from this story to universal coverage as many here are doing i think is stretching it a little. in this case. as unfortunate and troublesoome as this may seem, do really think the government could have done a better?
You wrote: "Tom Daschle wrote in a book a couple of years ago that old people should just deal with their affirmities and not go to the doctor so much."
He is absolutely correct. There are some people who seem to make a hobby of running to their doctors for everything: headaches, earaches, stomach aches, bowel irregularities, back pain, joint pain, etc. etc. These are, for the most part, SELF-LIMITING CONDITIONS that everyone experiences and which medicine can do very little about anyway.
We don't have an infinite amount of money to spend on medical care for senior citizens, or anyone else. People need to deal with their infirmities and not go to the doctor so much.
What some people fail to understand is that lack of universal coverage hurts everyone, even those of us with "good" coverage.
When my daughter was born--vaginal delivery, no drugs except an antibiotic, no NICU, 2-day hospital stay, nothing "extra"--the bill came to just over $24,000. Insurance paid $12,000, we paid a $30 co-pay. Did it cost the hospital $12,030 to provide our care? Probably not. But they have to make up for the amount of unreimbursed care even a private hospital inevitably ends up providing because, like your family, there are so many folks with insurance who end up with bills they just can't pay, and with insurance that retroactively denies coverage, not to mention the ones who come to the ER with no insurance at all and must, by law, receive treatment.
That unreimbursed care, and the subsequent price markups for reimbursed care (example: $6.00 for a single gauze 4 x 4) is reflected in the premiums paid by individuals and businesses.
Something's gotta give.
Best of luck to you and your family.
i said making the appropriate insurance choice may have had a different outcome for cindy.
And, of course, it may not have. Given what Cindy's told us, there's nothing to indicate that her decision was not completely rational. Making a rational decision, under these circumstances, doesn't guarantee a good outcome, and there are huge numbers of people in the U.S. who have made rational decisions about their insurance needs and nevertheless still gone bankrupt. What people like Patrick (and me, for what it's worth) think is appropriate is changing the rules of the game to reduce the risk for everyone.
America is beginning to wake up. It started a year or two ago.
Second, I don't know if you've seen Michael Moore's film on health insurance and health care , "Sicko." It makes much the same point that you have made so eloquently here: even those who have health insurance can easily be rendered penniless by any severe illness or health emergency.
Third, and this is my major point: Your story is a perfect illustration of why we have got to eliminate private profit from the health care delivery system. As long as insurance companies can make a profit from intervening in the health care system, they will do everything they can to maximize premiums and minimize the amount they have to pay out. The existence of a middleman whose only motive is to increase profit hurts patients and direct health care providers alike. All of the enormous salaries paid to insurance company executives simply increases the cost of health care without benefiting anyone. I know nationalized health care systems are not perfect (waiting times, etc.), but look at it this way: they are a far more rational and equitable way of rationing health care than the system we have now, which allows rich people to wallow in all the cosmetic and discretionary health care they can consume, while bankrupting hardworking families like yours because of catastrophic illnesses they cannot prevent or foresee.
Hang in there! And please come back and keep us posted on how you're doing.
The fact that you have to struggle with payments and insurance just adds insult to injury.
A year and a half ago, a friend of mine was doing well, living in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, and she and her husband both had good jobs. About a year ago, she got laid off, but being hard-working and resilient, she started her own business. Her husband was a contractor with his own business as well. So they went on COBRA from her old job, paying the premiums to avoid the cost and trouble of individual insurance. Horribly, a few months later her husband was diagnosed with ALS, Lou Gehrig’s disease.
Of course, you can only stay on COBRA for 18 months. But now they cannot get individual insurance because of his disease. He is increasingly less able to work, and she has to work less to take care of him. In a few months, they will be uninsured if they can’t find a solution. She is looking at other jobs, and can’t let them know that her husband is dying, because they might not hire her if they knew her family would drive up the group’s insurance premiums.
She is also considering working at Starbucks as a barista because they offer decent medical benefits. If she did, that would make her the third person I know who is “under employed” by choice and making Starbucks coffee instead of following their careers – just for the insurance... I worry for them, I really do. Unfortunately, I’m not in a position to offer much help. Well, I can only offer emotional help.
She is 40 years old and they have a 3 year old son. They did everything “right” too.
Stay strong. All of us as OS are wishing you well.
My Best to you,
Denise
You wrote: "Do really think the government could have done any better?"
You are kicking over a straw man. It's not as if the free market now determines the allocation of health care resources in this country. The taxpayer dollars pay for 58% of all medical care expenses in this country. On a per capita basis, that's more than TOTAL spending on health care in all but three other nations.
We, the taxpayers, are paying enough to indemnify every man woman and child in this country, with plenty of money left over. So why don't we do that? The answer is our current system, which is a sinister hybrid of socialism and capitalism, and which combines the worst features of both.
To take a random example, consider calcium channel blockers for high blood pressure. They are not better than a generic gentle diuretic, they cost TWENTY TIMES AS MUCH, and they have unwanted side effects like, uh, death. Is that a good trade-off?
How did we get ourselves into this mess? In her book "Overtreated: How Too Much Medicine is Making US Sicker and Poorer," Shannon Brownlee explains how the Medicare reimbursement system amounted to a license for hospitals to charge whatever the wanted. The Bush administration's prescription drug plan for seniors plan amounts to the same thing.
The taxpayers pay for most of the health care in this country, but there is no systematic oversight of results. That's a surefire recipe for overdiagnosis and overtreatment.
50% of the people who declare bankruptcy in this country have unpaid medical bills. The medical profession is the THIRD-BIGGEST CAUSE OF DEATH in this country, and the fourth-biggest, cerebrovascular accidents, isn't even close. We can't go on this way. It's bankrupting us and killing us.
Having said that, I can't dispute your basic point that people ought to review their health insurance plans carefully and, within ther constraints of their budget, choose the one that best suits their needs.
Congrats!
http://open.salon.com/blog/mishima666/2009/03/06/secrets_of_hospital_bills_revealed
I struggle to fight off my Dirty Harry Moments.
I am glad Kerry is making an open call fo health care stories. This is an issue that needs to be aired out. And now is exactly the right time fo it while President Obama is starting his health summits.
My thoughts are with you, and please don't think of yourself as stupid. It's just that those actuaries they pay the big bucks to write those policies don't have the intent of providing a service, but of reaping the highest profit possible.
So I've been waiting a long time for the American people to wake up to this problem, but it is unfortunate that so much suffering is required in order for people to finally understand the truth about health care in this country. 20 years ago when I would tell my story, nobody believed me when I warned that this could happen to them, that this was a serious issue we all needed to address, and they assumed it was something that only happened to me because I was working a low-wage job. I wish they had been right and I had been wrong.
1. Several of you have agreed that this is an opportune time for an Open Call. Kerry agrees. If you have stories to tell, start writing them. Then please message Kerry and ask him to do the Open Call soon.
2. I haven't had a chance to check it yet, but I'm told there's a request at Obama's website for personal hardship stories relating to our current health care system. I'll get that as soon as I can, but if you know it, and can leave a comment or post on it, please do.
3. A note regarding our specific situation, for those of you who express concern: My kids are covered by their dad's insurance plan, which is much more generous. Well, my 19-year-old has "aged out" due to being 19 and not a full-time student. (There's a whole 'nother issue!) So yes, we took risks, but it was not to the detriment of the kids.
4. For those who have left comments expressing their reservations at the alternative involving government more, well, I hear you, and I do realize that caring for all requires not only compassion but wisdom. I hope that politicians will focus on finding solutions that truly help those who need it (and that's not the CEOs.)
I had a similar experience when I had eye surgery several years ago. The doctor and hospital were in-network providers for my insurance, but the anesthetist was a contractor from a company that claimed they were not in-network, but my insurance provider claimed they were. After many collection letters and threats, I managed to get my insurance provider to reimburse me 100%. But the hassle was excruciating.
http://open.salon.com/blog/oesheepdog/2009/03/06/never_in_doubt_but_often_wrong
Sorry for the lack of html--copy and paste--it's worth it!
OEsheepdog's post is Never In Doubt, But Often Wrong. Find it!
maybe more emphasis on prevention and mandating what preventive screenings need to be covered is a start. like i was saying here in maryland the state mandates that certain diagnostic/preventive be covered by the insurance company. so maybe that could be the first step to a national coverage. not to be confused with universal which seems to imply a single payor. becauce i'm sure there are plenty who are extremely happy with their coverage. so i say national not universal. but i know either way the talk of cost savings to you and me is a dream.
For all those out there who are against universal health care because they don't believe "the government can run it", the government doesn't run Medicare or Medicaid either. It is run by a private insurance agency (here in Mississippi, it is Blue Cross/Blue Shield). The government simply pays for the provided care. So that is a completely bogus argument.
Others don't want to pay for the unhealthy habits of others - "I don't want to pay for fat people who won't lose weight" yada yada. Well, here's a clue - you are already paying for them. With the increases in your health insurance premiums, with the increases in your taxes, and with the diminishment of services such as the closing of ERs.
As for the rationing of health care services, the health care insurance companies already do that. They determine what course of treatment you will have because they determine what they will pay for. They determine which doctors you will see since most people won't go to a doctor out of the system because that money comes out of their pockets. The insurance companies determine how long you will stay in the hospital and what drugs you will receive.
The time has come for Americans to realize that the US doesn't have the best health care in the world - we have the best technology, but it doesn't do anyone any good if it is too expensive to be used. Because of the lack of universal healthcare, the US lags behind every other first tier nation in the number of infant deaths and the number of women who die in child birth. We pay more per capita for health care than any other nation on earth, and yet people die every day because they can't afford to go to the doctor. That shouldn't happen.
READ Mishima666's current post, Secrets of Hospital Bills Revealed:
http://open.salon.com/blog/mishima666/2009/03/06/secrets_of
_hospital_bills_revealed
Sorry for no hyperlink!
what about choice, where does the enter into the picture? bc/bs may administer what you have in mississippi, here in maryland it's amerigroup/americaid, but they do so with the rules of the government, not their own. so if i am reading what you write correctly, and we are doing what you say, then you just want to make everything bigger to include everybody. where would the incentives be for companies to develope new technologies and treatments when the only payer is the government. or would the governmnet run the drug companies, mri companies, etc.?
I am sorry this happened to you. We need a national healthcare plan yesterday.
I have health insurance although it is COBRAed and pricey. This ends in August. My breast cancer treatment cost between $500,000 and $1,000,000 over the course of a year (depends on how you calculate the cost since I was in a clinical trial). Most of that was covered. 10% of $500,000 is horrific and I did not have to face that. However, I could only work part-time for a year so I lost 1/2 of my income as living expenses increased. I am divorced and have two children. You make more in a year than I do. I will be paying for that one year for several years.
you fall for the hype of the vested interests who live off your insurance plan
the nightmare of socialized medicine costs us less per head in UK or DK and covers all of us
USA is the only advanced country in the world which does not protect all of its citizens
Anyway, I have a slightly different problem - chronic illness, no insurance, and the program which covers uninsured people here doesn't cover me because I'm self-employed and to qualify I have to work 20 hours a week for someone else. It's been suggested that I hire a payroll company to pay myself, but that's not going to work either, since I don't work 20 hours a week - I work not at all some times and 80 hours a week sometimes.
Cindy, all the best to you and your husband and I'll be sending good thoughts your way for his prompt recovery.
The ER found nothing wrong and sent me home. (What I actually had was endocarditis, inflammation of the lining of my heart, but that's another story for another time.) So next month I get a letter saying that my bill was rejected by the insurance company, here, pay it. And I call - "You guys PRE APPROVED ME!" And they say, but it wasn't an emergency after all, was it?
So what's going on is that you're supposed to guess if you're having a heart attack. You're not allowed to see a medical professional and find out. You guess. And if you guess wrong, you pay.
$333 to cover a family of five was too much? Instead, you rolled the dice, took the free option (which didn't even have to be offered) lost the roll, and now complain about the free option (I guess just paying the whole amount would be better for you?)
Do you skip on life insurance too?
We paid more monthly than that when we made less than HALF what you are making. Why? Because medical insurance is something you don't gamble on.
While I feel sorry that your spouse has medical issues, you made the choice to gamble with your health. That you lost this gamble doesn't give you the right to complain.
My wife is currently in the hospital, and will be there awhile. Yes, we have expensive medical insurance. Yes paying for it over the years meant forgoing many things, especially in the beginning.
Your irresponsibility lead to your financial difficulties now, and that's what people should take from this story.
Medical issues hit healthy people, and good people end up in the hospital, and gambling on your health is a very bad gamble.
Some years ago I got sick with a pretty nasty ear infection while in New Zealand. I could not believe the high quality and nominal cost of being seen and treated by an ENT specialist. And I was only a visitor. Why the US is utterly incapable of having a solid universal coverage program is beyond me.
2 months after i had been "laid off" i broke both ankles and tore a ligament in my knee. that was another addition to our medical nightmare.
our medical bills now total over $30,000. we have no credit debt, we live in an apartment, our family only has 1 car.
we will be paying off these bills (and, as i was just in hospital again in early february), for the rest of our lives.
all that to say, i understand. and that i appreciate your post.
Another thought (bear with me). I once worked for a self-funded group that had $1.1 million in claims and no assets. They borrowed some money and I negotiated the claims downward. If you have $10,000 in liabilities, consider making a cash offer for a substantially lesser amount for immediate settlement; you will be astounded at how many will take it. Think of it this way...if they are a non-preferred provider they are billing you at their highest rate, but every day they take a lesser amount for the same service--from Medicare, from Medicaid and from insurance companies for which they have an agreement. Same service, different prices--providers think about the patient mix, and if your settlement doesn't alter their mix, they may be open to a little give and take.
My knowledge is a little dated (was a PPO administrator in the mid-90's), but there is probably someone who reads this blog who knows the current ins and outs and can help move your liability downward.
By the way, I didn't follow the comment about not having to pay the $10,000 coinsurance again. Usually, the deductible, coinsurance and out of pocket maxes reset on the calendar year. I am probably missing something...
I'm so sorry for what you're going through. The president says he'll/they'll have a comprehensive plan in place by the end of the year. But what of implementation? I'm anxious to hear about implementation.
Second, don't put any of those provider bills on your credit card. Negotiate -- the amount of payment and the rate over which they will be paid. Specifically, negotiate willingness to pay sooner (on your part) with willingness to accept less (on their part). If they won't deal, put them at the bottom of the stack, especially if you don't foresee using them again.
Let me also say this for those who sneer at the Medicare program: Medicare protects its beneficiaries from this kind of bullshit "balance billing" and nonsense. Out of network doctors are limited in what they can charge, and hospitals are too. I am so sorry this happened. If you've got further questions, just post them and I'll try to answer.
Yeah, I work in the world of health care insurance, and the saddest part is to see how many people just have no idea how to even figure out what their coverage is.
you rented a car...the clerk offered you the damamge insurance for $2...you didn't take it....and you total the car...the rental company wants $20,000 for the totaled car...we need the government to provide national auto insurance. ....not that's there's anything wrong with that.
and speaking of cars my plan to revive the american auto industry have those that making over $250,000 buy american cars for those making less than $250.000.
is it 2012 yet?
my brother in france just went through colonoscopy , bowel cancer surgery , and , as it had spread to the liver , liver surgery (twice) and is in chemio for the next couple of month. Most if not all of it was covered by the state social security system and the rest if any like private room etc was covered by his medical insurance .
myself here in New Zealand went through a colonoscopy as precaution as i had possible symptoms and possible familly predisposition. So i had the choice to go for a free consultation colonoscopy,..etc via the state health system which will have been a slow process given the existing waitlist or go private as i have an health insurance. Went private all the tests were done quickly and the health insurance covered all of it.
The thing is it only cost around 1700NZD which will be around 1000USD compared to around 5000USD for the same colonoscopy in the US..
(health insurance we have is relatively expensive by nz standards and cost us around 230NZD a month for 4 adults )
For what it's worth, though, I would like to respond first to a few criticisms/observations. Don't know if the respondents will come back to see whether I reacted, but here goes, anyway.
To MJ Gott - I recognize your name and believe that you're a frequent contributer at OS. Thank you for keeping the conversation going here. I appreciate your comments and do recognize that I am responsible for taking my own gambles. I didn't gamble with my kids' health care, only my husband's and mine, and it seemed a reasonable gamble to take given that we're not that old, and have had excellent health all this time. Besides, we thought the gamble we were taking was with $11,000--not $22,000. It seems to me that that could have been better explained for people who, like me, may not think about health costs straddling two years when benefit election takes place mid-year. I'm not convinced that any particular answer to our health care problems is the right one, but I do know that health care is a quality of life issue and everyone needs it. Whether they can afford it should not even be in the equation. I thank you for your good wishes and will ponder on what you, and others, have said.
I appreciate your perspective and think it enhances the dialog here. I certainly would not want for Will to have to wait two years, for example, for the liver surgery we found out today that he must have. I believe that Frontline had a recent special about how national health care is done right in five other countries. Perhaps the examples you mention should give us pause, but there are other countries with systems we could analyze and emulate here in the US.
By the way, I found your comment about my husband working to be unfair. If my husband had written the story about me, would you have commented that the wife should be working? We are still in the process of raising three kids (plus we have an extra kiddo who's been cast out of his own home), our inexpensive home is in a high crime area and Will has thwarted burglary attempts at least once, and we are strong believers that being parents is a 24 hour a day job and someone needs to be available at all times. That may not be everyone's philosophy, but I wish it were. I see the results, as a teacher, every day, of kids who are raising themselves.
I agree, maybe all of you moving to New Zealand would help with this problem, but this isn't right. You shouldn't have to.
Actually, I live near a small town and the wait time is less here perhaps than in the city. I got a breast biopsy LIKE THAT (it was a small benign whatzit). My late husband got two hip replacements very quickly (because he'd delayed looking after his late wife and his condition had deteriorated), whereas he might have had to wait longer otherwise. Anyway, the thing is people shouldn't have to have financial worries and fight with insurance companies out to screw them at times of medical worries.
Organian said, "As long as insurance companies can make a profit from intervening in the health care system, they will do everything they can to maximize premiums and minimize the amount they have to pay out. The existence of a middleman whose only motive is to increase profit hurts patients and direct health care providers alike. All of the enormous salaries paid to insurance company executives simply increases the cost of health care without benefiting anyone. I know nationalized health care systems are not perfect (waiting times, etc.), but look at it this way: they are a far more rational and equitable way of rationing health care than the system we have now, which allows rich people to wallow in all the cosmetic and discretionary health care they can consume, while bankrupting hardworking families like yours because of catastrophic illnesses they cannot prevent or foresee."
It's a cruel system. Our nationalized health system is far from perfect (medical care is so expensive that there is no perfect system), but I wouldn't live in the U.S. just on the grounds of health costs alone.
Best wishes to you, Cindy, and all others here with medical problems. A special thought for Grandjester and his wife.
The most tragic thing about this post is the tags--guilt about worrying about the bill. Well, of course you do. No one wants to end up poor, bankrupt, evicted and all the things that happen to people with huge healthcare bills.
There's this operation I want, which is an alternative to spinal fusion. The insurance doesn't pay for it, but they will pay to fuse me into an stiff, immobile cripple, even though the other operation is simpler, less damaging and probably doesn't cost any more. Apart from the bills, which never end, there is the insurance company making medical decisions. Kill me now.
With all that's happened to you, let's hope that the cancer's beaten and that you live long, healthy lives.
Who can understand what's in the fine print in his insurance policy? I sure don't, and I have a PhD from one of America's top research universities.
Suppose you buy health insurance, and pay your premiums in good faith every month, and then you suffer a serious illness, and the insurance company refuses to pay, and you have to hire a lawyer and sue them. Did you know you can collect only the money they promised to pay in the first place? You can't even collect legal fees, let alone interest, let alone punitive damages. Fighting a multibillion-dollar corporation is difficult in any circumstances, but especially when you are sick.
If I don't like the service I get at McDonald's, I can go to Burger King. But if I ever suffer a serious illness, and I don't like the service I get from my insurance company, it won't do me any good to take my business somewhere else. They've already got my money, and from then on I will be nothing but a liability to them.
We the taxpayers already pay enough in taxes to indemnify every man, woman and child in the country, with plenty of money left over. The problem is our system, which is a sinister hybrid of socialism and capitalism, with all the worst features of both. The government collects the taxes, and hands the money over to health care industry, whose responsibility is to maximize profit for their shareholders, which means they have a vested interest in pushing as many expensive and invasive treatments on people as possible. No one is responsible for maximizing patient outcomes.
This isn't a matter of asking for a handout -- it's time we started demanding some results for all the taxes we pay.
See my post, "Free market versus socialized medicine = A false choice."
http://open.salon.com/blog/xylocopa/2009/03/06/free_market_versus_socialized_medicine_a_false_choice
Also see my post, "Blaming the uninsured."
http://open.salon.com/blog/xylocopa/2009/03/05/blaming_the_uninsured
"Many Canadians elect to have their surgery in the U. S. because of the waiting period, too. The solution for this country is not to socialize medicine, but to make certain everyone has health insurance."
The universal access to health care I experience isn't flawless but it's pretty incredible and it's interesting to watch how much it is bashed and the myths around it.
I'm Canadian and here's what I get in return for paying higher taxes.
I have a regular family doctor whom I chose. No one dictated my choice. Some GP's practices are full, so you might not get to select absolutely anyone. It's like seeking the services of any professional, whether it's a therapist, a lawyer, etc. But if a doctor's practice can accommodate more patients, you're entirely free to choose that doctor. Your choice isn't restricted by government in any way.
If I have any ailment needing immediate attention, even something run-of-the-mill that feels urgent to me like a bladder infection or strep throat, I can get in to see my doctor the same day, worst-case scenario, the next day. If I'm booking a visit that doesn't require immediate attention, it's within the same week or next week.
When I have needed an MRI done (for something not urgent), it's been scheduled within 2 weeks.
For emergency care, I can go to any hospital at all I choose, either here in my own city or anywhere across the country. I can also go to any walk-in clinic should I be away from home. Emergency rooms are busy, and you can wait 3-4 hours to be seen (assuming the triage nurse has identified you as not needing immediate attention). This is a downside.
As far as major procedures go, I can best speak from personal experience. My mother had a lung transplant right here -- again, fully paid for by our system.
If I have anything that requires the attention of a specialist, I am referred by my family doctor to one she recommends from her personal experience with that physician. She is free to recommend anyone to me, and I trust her judgment. However, if a friend were to recommend a particular specialist to me, I can simply request that my doctor refer me to him or her.
The wait to see a specialist can be lengthy, depending on the area of practice -- anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 months. Again, this can be a drag as we all want things immediately, but it's manageable.
So, yes, I know the shortcomings full well, and I can tell you they are minor compared to the risk I’d be facing right now as someone in a contract work position without any coverage.
I would never trade what I have, imperfections and all, for the compromised delivery of health care in the U.S. And if getting health insurance for all still includes the HMO system, I wouldn't trade it for that either.
I fear any health care reform in the US, such as Obama seems to be proposing, that includes the insurance companies will perpetuate the pain. Why NOT the Canadian system? Why should people (the insurance companies) who contribute nothing at all get in between doctor/hospital and patient and rip them off? What is the benefit to anyone but them? And the whole free-enterprise argument looks pretty weak in the face of the economic collapse. Again, re banks, Canada is not having any question of bank failure - they're fine. We didn't do sub-prime mortgages. We have the same ownership rate as the States. It's like fundamentalist religion - damn the facts, damn people's suffering, ideology is everything!
I found your post via CM's Daily Scrawl. And you've now been awarded an Editor's Pick. Double bonus. I appreciate your post. It shows the community here on OS what normal, hardworking folks go through in this country every single day with our "free market" "health care" system which incorporates "choice" (whether you can afford it or not).
Our son has a chronic medical condition that he acquired from his first country at birth, which we didn't know about , but which surfaced during his middle school years.We are lucky that his very expensive treatment was fully covered by our HMO, which we "chose" during the "election" period at our large university employer. If we had "chosen" the non-HMO, typical Blue Cross option, which would have cost us much more, his "treatment" would NOT have been covered. But, his organ transplant WOULD HAVE BEEN covered.
He responded very well to the grueling treatment and has been healthy since. Lucky "choice" on our part.
He and his girlfriend, who has Type I diabetes, had a baby 2 years ago. Our grandson was "unexpected." Because they were both on their parents' respective health insurance policies, they couldn't marry because our insurances would drop them, and they are uninsurable due to their "pre-existing" conditions. Plus, although our son's girlfriend's parents both cover her with their large employer-based insurance policies, the pregnancy was not covered. Why? I'm am not sure if they could have "chosen" such coverage. Even if they could have how many of us foresee our children's pregnancies and would choose a higher premium based on such possibilities?
Thankfully we had a very new Medicaid program in our state that covered the pregnancy, and our grandson's care after he was born. Both mom and baby have received excellent care from "Medicaid." Our son and his girlfriend are in graduate school now, and because they remain in school their parents' (our) health insurance policies will cover them until they are 24 years old. Apparently, that's the "standard" age that "kids" are dropped from parents' policies. We do not have any "choice" in the matter.
They will graduate before they are 24 by three months, and at that time will have to find employment from an employer that has a Group Health Insurance Policy, so that their "pre-existing" conditions do not "count" against them, so that they can be covered by health insurance.
What do I think their chances are of gaining such employment in this recession? I seriously don't know, but their "chances" of gainful post-graduation employment look dimmer everyday. This is not their "choice" either.
This is what "choice" gets you.
Denese
I've been very concerned about President Obama's healthcare plan since its announcement. Your situation illustrates my concerns.
During the past four years, your "insurer" earned 16K from you yet only paid out approximately 12K (if that). Even with a catastrophic diagnosis, your insurer made money off of you.
Yet you and Will are still struggling to afford healthcare.
Mandatory insurance is not the answer to this crisis, unless of course, managed care organizations are regulated.
Fat chance on that one.
Here is some insider information on medical bills that I hope are helpful.
I never send patients to collections. If they don't pay a bill after three attempts, I write it off. I figure most people will pay if they can.
Big medical groups may not be so easygoing, however most are willing to take what they can get.
Hospitals will often negotiate if month after month, you don't pay your bill. Physicians' offices too. And usually, because doctors and their billing companies are relatively separate, there will be no hard feelings from your doctor when you see her again. (Usually).
Also - (Sorry to ramble) - the assisting surgeon fee is way to high in my opinion. She should not receive the same fee as the primary surgeon.
I suggest you call her office, and ask to speak to the manager in charge of billing. Tell that individual that you believe you have been overcharged as she was the assistant surgeon - not the primary surgeon. Once that is resolved, tell them you are willing to pay her what she would receive if she was contracted with your insurer. I personally believe that's fair, although many of my colleagues disagree.
And finally, use the word "fraud" if you write a letter. Hospitals are anxious about billing fraud.
I anesthetized a woman for a lumpectomy yesterday. Her insurance, however, only pays for the surgeon. According to her policy, she is free to have surgery, but if she wants anesthesia, well she'll have to pay for that herself.
I hope there's a special place in hell for the people who run this industry.
There are some individuals whose writing I admire and whose comments consistently add value to any blog post. I will now update my post above to mention you and to leave hyperlinks to your own blogs. I hope that will suffice for not having acknowledged your thoughts here in comments in a more timely fashion.
Gratefully, Cindy
Best to you and your family.
But if you are having trouble paying for the necessities of life, my suggestion to you is to stop paying those medical bills. Don't talk to anyone. Don't write anyone. Just stop. What will happen next is that in 4-6 months, the hospital will sell your debts to a debt collector who will then write to you and try to get you to pay all 100% of the debt. About 3-6 months later, the debt collector will settle for about half of the debt. About a year later, the collector will erase the debt for about a quarter of the original debt. And that's when you pay the debt, if you pay it at all.
Yes, your credit rating will go into the toilet. But there are far more important things in life than your credit score. Do not file for bankruptcy. Just ignoring your debt hurts your score less than filing for bankruptcy.
Also, I do not know how you are being billed but if it's just against one of you (like in your husband's name) it's easier to let that person's credit score go into the dump while keeping the other person's credit score high. Then you can apply for credit with the non-debtor's higher score.
My husband and I learned these lessons after his father died in a car accident and we had to deal with his non-existent estate (his father already had a poor credit rating from many debts). We were able to see the process the debt collector's followed when they were trying to collect the medical debts from the accident.
And don't beat yourself up for the Dec. 31 issue. Who the hell is thinking straight when it comes to cancer removal?
FUCK!
And its not just catastrophic medical issues. I had an irregular heartbeat last year. Decided to have it checked out. Went online, picked doctor from directory and proceeded to have several tests done (heart is fine apparently.) Well, I chose from the WRONG online directory - one that wasn't for my plan.
So I was held responsible for thousands of dollars. I appealed two times (saying if I made the mistake online, how many others? What do the elderly do? Are you purposefully tricking us?) I ended up having to make agreements (which I'm suggesting for you as well) with the physicians themselves where I told them I'll pay you X amount, not Y, and we're done. If you don't accept it, I don't know WHEN you are going to get paid. Most worked with me and it brought my bills down to 2 Gs.
The stress it put me through? Unfathomable. One of the worst things of 2008. I was reduced to tears on several occasions because it was little old me up against this corrupt bureaucracy and they were winning at every turn. Both appeals, denied. If I wanted to pursue it anymore, I'd have to pay for an effin' lawyer.
Just dropped my insurance two days ago. First time I've been without in over ten years. Strangely, I felt relieved though I have NO clue why. I just couldn't stand sending them ONE MORE CENT.
Listen, the main thing is your husband's health. Thank goodness he got the colonoscopy. Focus on health and healing and FUCK them (sorry for overuse of F word, but when it fits...and boy does it fit here.)
I feel like advocating full anarchy here. Don't pay the fucking bills. Don't dig yourself into a hole for this. Pay what you can when you can, if not paying seems too extreme. But truthfully, these people are raping us over and over and what other choices do we have? I'm tired of them winning.
And I agree with those above who have said that this is a burden that shouldn't be added to the all-consuming task of trying to survive. Blessings to your and your husband.
Insurance companies are in the business of accepting your premium payments and challenging/shortchanging any of your claims. That is how they make a profit, and that is the reality of their day to day business. They are completely unregulated. They count on you being too distracted by illness to challenge them every step of the way, and the appeal process can be quite protracted. They will ultimately have to cover your legal fees, so get a good advocate right away.
The most important thing is that you have one another. In the end, love is all we have.
While I do think you have made some valid points in this thread, I think you may have inadvertently veered off into the potentially dangerous in making some others.
The calcium channel blocker debate rages on; each new study seems to contradict the one before. I think it is important to note that whether or not your doctor chooses to prescribe calcium channel blockers for hypertension depends largely on conditions and tolerances of the specific patient. There are several legitimate scenarios in which a doctor would be negligent if he did NOT prescribe the calcium channel blocker over a diuretic.
In these lean economic times, people are looking to save money wherever they can. I just wanted to make it clear that your doctors are not necessarily screwing you if they choose not to prescribe a diuretic. The best thing for patients to do is to research their own conditions and the best treatments for hypertension taking those conditions and their own sensitivities into account. When you see your doc, you're prepared for the discussion and can together decide whether to make a change.
I also need to say that it is irresponsible to state that death is a side effect of calcium channel blockers without also pointing out that death is listed as a side effect of virtually every medication now on the market. Additionally, the debate about usage of calcium channel blockers applies only to treatment of hypertension. Calcium channel blockers are successfully being used as a less expensive and more effective treatment for a number of other conditions.
I also noticed that you stated that people should stop going to the doctor and just deal with their symptoms, specifically in the case of headaches, earaches, back pain, joint pain, stomachaches and bowel irregularities. I believe that this too falls under the "potentially dangerous" category of statements.
Some legitimate, life-threatening/life-altering and fairly common conditions that manifest by the above stated symptoms: migranes, brain aneurysm, etc.(headaches); hearing loss due to ear infection, etc.(earaches); herniated disc, spinal fractures, kyphosis, scoliosis, fibromyalgia, kidney infection, ovarian cancer, etc.(back pain); rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, other autoimmune disorders, etc.(joint pain); appendicitis, cholecystitis, cystitis, various cancers, gastric ulcers, etc.(stomachache); bowel obstruction, Crohn's disease, spinal cord injury, etc.(bowel irregularities).
The fact that there will always be hypochondriacs among us absolutely does not mean that people should stop seeing their doctors about these types of symptoms. Though they might seem trivial, these are the symptoms that can lead to early diagnosis and early treatment, potentially saving hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical treatments per patient.
We can certainly be more efficient in the delivery of treatment. Efforts need to be made to inform people about the different types of provider services available in their area in order to prevent ER/EDs from becoming clogged with these types of complaints. If you can't get an appointment with your doctor, try a walk-in clinic or urgent care facility--that's why they exist. A medical professional will evaluate your condition and send you to the ER or follow-up care with your doc as applicable. Your regular doctor may tell you that you don't need a visit if your condition has resolved; don't be afraid to ask if you are concerned about funds.
Mr. Hahn, I believe it was you that said something about needing a PhD just to understand your health insurance policy. Well, I believe that you need medical credentials in order to diagnose or dismiss symptoms, and to recommend that someone refrain from seeking medical attention.
I do apologize for the slight thread derail. I also apologize if my post seemed obnoxious or aggressive, as it's not intended to be.
I had mentioned possible Medicaid eligibility for you and your family in a previous post. A quick Google brought up the eligibility requirements and contact info. I'm not sure if you're interested, but I'm going to link the page for you just in case.
Call 1-800-352-8401 for the nearest office
http://www.azahcccs.gov/Publications/Reference/IncomeLimits/EligibilityRequirements.pdf
Our thoughts and prayers are with your family.
www.azahcccs.gov/Publications/Reference/IncomeLimits/
EligibilityRequirements.pdf
It may well be that calcium channel blockers are indicated for a subset of patients with hypertension. Thanks for the clarification. If you have any studies on the subject, I’d like to take a look at them.
In his book, Hadler says if you have back pain with accompanying numbness, weakness, or tingling, you should see a physician right away. But for back pain without any complicating factors or obvious precipitating injury – you know, just plain old-fashioned My Aching Back – according to Hadler, there really is nothing medicine can do for you. I’ll admit I haven’t read the studies he cites (you can bet I would if this were my problem), but Hadler is a rheumatologist, so I wouldn’t dismiss his opinion out of hand.
Having said that, I admit there is no magic formula for deciding when to seek medical attention and when to just learn to live with symptoms. And I freely admit that you would be certifiably insane to make your medical care decisions on the basis of what a former truck washer writes in his blog. That’s not what I am trying to get people to do. I am trying to get people to arm themselves with knowledge and make their own informed decisions. To paraphrase Aristotle, you may not be interested in the medical profession, but that won’t stop the medical profession from taking an interest in you.
As I have made clear in my other posts, in this country we have a sinister hybrid of socialism and capitalism which combines the worst features of both. The government collects the taxes and disburses them to the health care industry, which has an obvious vested interest in pushing as many expensive treatments on people as possible. Such treatments are, pretty much by definition, the most invasive and dangerous. Doing what the doctor ordered makes about as much sense as letting the Hummer salesman decide how big a car I need.
Fifty percent of the people in this country who declare bankruptcy have unpaid medical bills. The medical profession is the third-biggest cause of death in this country. We can’t afford to go on doing what the doctor ordered. It’s bankrupting us and killing us. Despite our differences, I do appreciate your writing.
If you could prove that calcium channel blockers are superior to diretics in every way, that would not even make a dent in my argument, which is that we are a preposterously overmedicated society. Suppose we were to do the unthinkable and slash spending on prescription drugs by, say, 94%. Would that take us back to the Dark Ages? No, it would take us back to...1980. And, if memory serves, the streets of my hometown were not littered with dead bodies back then.
And yes, I knew that a headache can be a symptom of a brain aneurysm. But it usually isn't. Are you saying that any time anyone has a headache, he should worry that he might have a brain aneurysm and run to the hospital and get an MRI? Really? I'd rather be dead than live that way. And if that's not what you are saying, just what are you saying?
Hell, when I get a headache I don't even take an aspirin. I just lie down and close my eyes for a few minutes and let my body heal itself. And you know something? So far, that's always worked fine. Yeah, I know, tomorrow I could get that brain aneurysm. If I do, in my last moments I shall take comfort in the fact that I didn't live a life governed by fear.
Cindy, I haven't lived in NZ for nearly 20 years but back then they were very into special needs education, my wife worked in the field. May different now of course :)
However we live in Australia and there is a huge demand for special needs Teachers here right now. Your husband as a Kiwi is free to live and work in Australia with no need for a Visa and I believe as his wife you should be the same.
Daniel Hurst - If you are able to pay more for insurance and earn half what I earn, then my hat is off to you.
Note, my wife and I used to have to pay more while making less. That's no longer the case.
Would you consider posting some of you moneysaving hints? Seriously, I have no idea how any family of five would make it on $24,000/year.
Look at your budget, and especially your grocery bill. I'd wager you spend far more money on food than is needed. 99% of people do.
Staples such as rice, beans and flour cost next to nothing in the US. If you have one nearby, go to an ethnic supermarket (Asian or Indian is best) and buy a 25lb bag of rice. It will cost only a few dollars and will last you a very long time.
Rice is a simply 2-1 water to rice ratio. You can even nuke it if in a hurry. Taste different, but not bad that way.
Rice with a little broccoli is an excellent dish, and will really extend your food budget.
We tighten our belts incessantly, and barely live from paycheck to paycheck, which is why we gambled that the two of us (not the kids, who are covered by their dad) would remain healthy to begin with. I just don't believe that a capitalistic paradigm works for some things, health care included.
Cindy Ross
Most people live paycheck to paycheck, and it really has very little to with how much money they make.
How money is spent is key. I myself saved money while having a higher percentage of fixed income costs than you have, and I know plenty of people who do the same. They key is spending on food. You can eat better for far less money than most do. Packaged food at home really isn't that much of a time savings. It sometimes seems that way, but a few simple cooking tips and you can make food almost as fast.
For example, I come home, start some rice, by the time I'm finished changing my clothes, rice is done. Now it's just adding some veggies and there a meal.
I agree that despite our differences, we share some of the same ideals. However, I do my best to avoid advising anything potentially dangerous.
Encouraging people to educate themselves is a worthy and admirable goal. However, providing questionable statistics probably isn't the best way to go about doing that. Who cares that you're a former truck washer? You're obviously not a stupid guy. Back up your statistics with some references; that really helps with credibility and your goal of encouraging others to educate themselves, as it gives them a place to start. Separate opinion from fact; that'll help avoid giving potentially dangerous advice.
No, I am not saying that one should assume they have a tumor or anerysm every time they have a headache. I AM saying that it is far too easy for a layperson to ignore or dismiss symptoms of a potentially serious illness or condition, and that there is no way to provide guidelines for everything. One problem is that the combination of certain symptoms is often important in diagnosis, and it's just too much to remember if it's not your profession. For example, if you have back pain combined with bowel and/or bladder changes, that can be indicative of a herniated disc putting pressure on the spinal cord. Not something your average layperson would be able to pull out of a hat, and a serious condition requiring immediate attention. Or check out the symptoms of a detatched retina. Nothing big, but you'd be regretting it forever if you failed to seek treatment. I will say this, though: the first time you feel something out of the ordinary, you should probably see your provider. Then, if the sensation becomes different at some point, that would also be a good time for an appointment.
Remember that patients can always call their provider office and speak with the nurse if they are not sure if their symptoms require an appointment. This is the best thing you can do for your own health, and to use your healthcare appropriately and efficiently. Nurses are trained to triage, and can tell you whether you should come in, go to urgent care, the ER, or are OK to stay home. There is no charge for this call. As a side benefit, nurses can often get you in to see your provider if the Doberman manning the appointment desk has informed you that they're full. ;)
Before I go farther, I need to ask: are we talking about the same country? The US, correct?
I guess I really don't understand what you mean when you say that the goverment disperses our taxes to the insurance companies. As far as I know, that's not the way it works here. And I haven't dealt with an insurance company yet that pushes expensive treatments. I've seen plenty of letters from insurance companies warning doctors that if they continue to order expensive tests and treatments, they will be dropped as a participating provider. These companies do not take into account the type of patient the provider sees, either. So, if you've got an elderly population of patients, each with tons of conditions requiring expensive blood tests to monitor med levels, etc., the provider is pretty much screwed. So, if you wouldn't mind, please help me to understand what you're talking about.
We absolutely need to cut spending, and I agree that doctors tend to overprescribe. The main reason for that is because we have become a culture of people who believe in magic pills. No matter what's wrong, you have people that want the medication, no matter how futile. Then you have doctors that overprescribe because they aren't allowed enough time to actually get to know their patients and their conditions. 10 minutes is not enough. Nowhere near. But the doc is afraid to miss something, and so every complaint gets treated. Docs also have a quota that their employers say they must meet. 25 patients per day is common. Drop beloew the quota for long, and you get fired. The best doctor I ever worked with actually retired because he couldn't find an employer who would allow him to see patients for longer than 10 minutes without the patient being charged up the wazoo for the privilege. He loved the practice of medicine, but he did not feel he could adequately treat patients in 10 minutes. That was more than 2 decades ago, and I still miss him.
This is getting kind of long, but I really want to bring some more of this stuff to people's attention. Guess I will have to work on a blog piece about it in the near future.
I am very sorry to hear about the major hurdles you and your family are facing. Given the heated discussion above about universal health care versus private health insurance, I wrote something on this topic here (first part of two):
http://open.salon.com/blog/kanuk/2009/03/11/health_care_comparison_universal_versus_us-style_systems
This may help others put health care costs and other characteristics in perspective.
Good luck and keep us posted.
I updated the part I of my blog with additional information:
http://open.salon.com/blog/kanuk/2009/03/11/health_care_comparison_universal_versus_us-style_systems
Best regards
As you suggested, I created a new post.
Good evening!
When, oh when will this be solved? Or even partially remedied? Maybe my late comment will bump it again for you...
While we are for the present working overseas, mostly in the USA, we were in New Zealand recently when I renewed the annual contract prior to departing overseas again. We then traveled to the UK via the USA and my wife came down with pain and bleeding while in London. We returned to the US and sought medical advice, and it transpired that she needed an urgent radical hysterectomy due to the presence of cancer, and the surgeon involved gave a written report to this effect. We forwarded this to Southern Cross. The report also said that she was unable to travel. She was bleeding and had dangerously high blood pressure, so much so that they expressed a concern as to whether she could even undergo surgery.
Southern Cross would not approve the surgery, and tried to pretend that this was a "pre existing" condition, in spite of detailed and comprehensive evidence to the contrary. They were attempting to rely on a minor one word typo in a document prepared by a resident working for the surgeon. This was subsequently corrected by the resident concerned and copied to SC. The resident is also prepared to give an affidavit verifying the corrected typo.
Southern Cross made an offer of cabin class air travel to NZ and offered to pay for a CT scan, but said that my wife had to go through the public health system, with its waiting lists in NZ for surgery- in other words they were not even going to cover her in NZ ! They claimed to have advice (from someone who has never examined my wife) which said she could travel, but have not given that to me. Not being a medical doctor and not knowing what to do I sought independent medical advice on this from an Associate professor of medicine at Texas Tech University Medical School. This confirmed the original surgeon's advice that she was unable to travel, and this was given to Southern Cross.
Southern Cross still refused to cover the surgery, so I managed to make arrangements for it to be done anyway (it was after all an urgent matter). It is very expensive in my terms, probably about USD 55,000 !. Not only that but I have had to involve a barrister in NZ to try and get SC to honour their contract. Fortunately the surgery seems to have been successful, but there was spread of the cancer into the muscle and we will not know for a while if it is all OK. It is however obvious from the results of the surgery that any travel and delays such as SC were proposing could have been fatal.
The latest thing is that SC have again denied the claim, still on the spurious grounds of so called "pre existing condition", about which they must know they are flat out lying, and now they are also wanting evidence that we "at the time of renewal, currently resided in and that we intend to return to NZ on the completion of our travel". As I said, we were in NZ at the time of renewal. However I note that in the fine print you are in any event supposed to be allowed to enter into these policies when you are still overseas anyway, and you are also supposed to be covered while you are in NZ for short periods of time. So this too would just seem to be garbage.
So you can see that SC are trying any and all ploys to avoid honouring the contract. You can readily imagine that when your wife has cancer, your main interest is in having it dealt with forthwith, and the last thing you need is to be having to hassle with some insurance company.
It looks like SC are just making a practice of initially disallowing any claims from what I am hearing from others, which of course makes these very expensive policies effectively worthless. Obviously anyone can easily get an airfare back to NZ (if you don't already have return tickets), for much less money than the cost of this policy, so having these policies seems pointless. This would seem to be especially true if you are in the UK as there is a requirement in the fine print that you deal with the issue via the National Health. You have that right anyway due to the reciprocal agreement between the UK and NZ, so in effect SC are not offering anything.
Many years ago while traveling overseas on business I was insured by Comprehensive Travel Insurance and I suffered a serious accident which required 10 hours of surgery, a week in hospital and several months of recuperation. In contrast with SC, Comprehensive Travel could not have been more helpful. They covered all the costs without question and I believe the amount was around USD 250,000 all up.
I am wondering if SC has treated others in this manner ? If so I think this ought to be made public, as there is not much point in having a "Claytons" insurance policy. For US viewers a "Claytons" is a non alcoholic drink and was marketed as "the drink you have when you are not having a drink"
John Fleming