Colleen Claes posted on Tuesday about the Roman Polanski case. I posted what I considered a contrarian comment. (Let me note that none of this is directed at Colleen, whose post was well-written, and who was welcoming of dissenting views.) I’m often reluctant to post opposing views on hot topics, not because I’m unwilling to defend my views, but because too often in modern America, a lynch mob mentality takes hold, and if you’re unwilling to pick up the pitchfork and torch, you’re accused of not taking things seriously. (I find moral outrage exhausting and prefer to save it for things that occurred in the current century.) Too often, if you try to take a temperate, moderate tone and find a middle ground, you’re accused of being cowardly. Emotional, inflammatory positions offend my sense that issues should be addressed in a reasoned, logical fashion. This often feels like a minority opinion.
So I’ve decided to take my comment from Colleen’s blog, print it here and then expand upon it. This may be a fool’s errand. It might anger people who have previously thought kindly of me. So be it. Some people might absurdly think that I don’t believe Polanski is a deviate and a scumbag because I’m not anxious to toss him in a prison cell and throw away the key. (In California’s grossly overcrowded prisons, there aren’t that many keys to throw away.) But if I don’t feel free to print honest, thought-out opinions about a controversial issue because I’m afraid someone might call me a name, then there is no sense in my even having an opinion.
This is the comment I posted on Colleen’s blog:
Allow me to post a slightly contrary comment. I offer no defense for Polanski, though I see no point in tossing a 77-year old man in jail for something he did 33 years ago and for which he has been forgiven by the victim. If I was asked to play King Solomon on this case, I would haul him back to the U.S. courts, sentence him to time served (the original plea bargain), then deport him and banish him permanently as an undesirable alien. If anyone demands harsher punishment, I won’t argue.
However, I am troubled by two things that make me wonder if the outrage against Polanski is selective:
1) At the very time Polanski was being arrested in Europe, R. Kelly was bumping and grinding his way through a tour stop in my neck of the woods. Kelly’s proclivity for underage girls is well-established. He was tried once (yes, he was acquitted, so was O.J.), he has reportedly videotaped several sessions that include behavior I can’t name without getting nauseous, and he had a marriage to 15-year-old Aaliyah annulled. Yet nobody seemed to raise a peep that this pervert is still able to make a lucrative living. Please don’t tell me it’s because Kelly’s acts were “consensual;” the law does not see it that way. I also have the uncomfortable feeling that race is part of the reason for the different response. I sure hope someone can convince me otherwise.
2) If anyone on the pages of Salon had a bad word to say about Ted Kennedy when he passed away, I confess that I missed it. It seemed rude that Rush Limbaugh’s moronic dittoheads brought up Chappaquiddick at that time, but let’s be honest. Kennedy was responsible for the death of a young woman through moral cowardice and political ambition. No, he did not physically assault Mary Jo Kopechne, but ask her mother which scenario she would have preferred. Does Kennedy’s life of good work, especially on women’s issues, compel us to look the other way? I’m not sure we should.
I would be remiss if I didn’t say that I agreed with Colleen’s central point: that Polanski must have a brass set to claim victimhood. Whatever judicial misconduct took place is more than overwhelmed by the fact Polanski gave Quaaludes to a 13-year-old girl, committed sodomy upon her against her will and then became a fugitive from justice. There is only one victim in this case, and it ain’t him.
I would also be remiss if I didn't acknowledge that many of the arguments in Polanski's defense are ridiculous. The fact that he is an Academy Award-winning director should not give him one iota more standing in court than the neighborhood crack dealer. Any argument that the girl was at all complicit in what happened is abhorrent and repellent. Any discussion of the girl’s mother is irrelevant.
As a father, I know that if Polanski had done this to my daughter, my vengeance would have been the act of a very incompetent mohel. But I also know that if my daughter had insisted on disposing of the case, I would have fought for her there too. Therefore, I am dismayed by much of the enmity against the victim because of her wish to drop the charges. She claims that the constant replaying of the gory details in the press feels like an additional assault. Yet some of the writers yelling for Polanski’s scalp seem to relish trumpeting those details. When someone who claims to be fighting for female victims tramples on the wishes of a female victim, I’m wondering where the priorities truly lie.
Sadly, I’m old enough to have been an adult when Polanski was originally charged in 1977. It was big news, of course, but I don’t recall the ferocity of the emotions that seem to be in the air now. I believe it’s partly because attitudes toward sex crimes have evolved – Polanski’s original plea bargain seems laughably weak today. I also believe it’s partly because we seemed to be less celebrity-centric then; we saved our outrage for matters like war.
But I also believe it’s the blogosphere, where everyone can freely yell and scream from their keyboard and inflame the anger of like-minded people. I feel this power too. I’ve gotten involved in some online arguments, here and elsewhere, where I’ve found myself angrily defending a position that I never held too deeply, simply because the other person had questioned my intelligence or morality. This is not a healthy way to discuss matters. (One of the commenters on Colleen’s post, for example, basically said: if you forgive Polanski because he’s an artist, you might as well forgive Hitler too because he was an artist; I assume reasoned discussion is not an option.)
Because I consider myself a temperate person, I cringe when anger seeps into the justice system. This isn’t relevant to Polanski’s case, since his guilt is unquestioned, but I wonder how many of the men and women we see leaving prison after being exonerated by DNA testing would not have been there in the first place if we had kept our senses. As a life-long resident of the New York metropolitan area, I can attest that no case stirred people’s outrage like the rape of the Central Park jogger in 1989. The city tabloids whipped up a righteous anger, and soon five young African-Americans were rounded up, coerced into confessions and convicted, despite not one bit of forensic evidence implicating them. A decade later, DNA testing cleared them and the city is still defending a lawsuit over the misbegotten prosecution. Like I said, this is not relevant to Polanski, but it is relevant to the way that anger warps our perspective.
My point about Ted Kennedy was this: he allowed a young woman to drown to save his own political hide, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s a worse sin than Polanski’s. (If you don’t agree with me, ask Mary Jo Kopechne’s family what they think.) Yet we chose to, if not forgive, at least look the other way, because we liked the Kennedys and the good work they did on social issues that mattered to us. (Oh yeah, he faced justice – he got his driver’s license suspended. That must have hurt.) In light of the outage expressed at Polanski, the celebration of Kennedy and the reluctance to discuss his sin publicly seem bewilderingly hypocritical.
I am particularly uncomfortable with my reference to R. Kelly, which is why I think it important to address. One of Colleen’s commenters didn’t seem to understand Kelly’s history. He is widely known to have a history of unlawful relationships with underage women, often videotaped. He settled with one young woman out of court; he was tried on child pornography charges for possessing a tape that appeared to show him having sex with a 14-year-old girl (he was acquitted); he was arrested on another occasion for possessing additional tapes, but the charges were dropped because the search took place without a warrant.
My point was this: we shake the iron fist at Polanski, whose crime was committed 33 years ago, yet we treat Kelly with kid gloves, even though his acts have reportedly continued into the most recent decade. My only conclusion for this different treatment is race. Let me bring in another example. Ben Roethlisberger is the first athlete to get punished by his league for sexual misconduct – Kobe Bryant, who was actually charged with rape, didn’t miss a game. The sports leagues are full of men who have abused and mistreated women. Are Polanski and Roethlisberger safe targets for our outrage because they are white? Are we being condescending by refusing to hold an African-American R&B singer to the same moral standards? Are we being condescending if we are more concerned when a white college student gets assaulted than we are when an African-American woman is assaulted by the man with whom she lives? I am troubled expressing this. I wish someone could convince me that my feelings that race is a factor are unfounded. I’m not holding my breath.
Have I touched enough sensitive subjects for one day? I’m sure there will be comments, not all of them agreeing with me, which is fine. I just hope that the comments can take the same calm tone I’ve tried to exhibit here. I always believe that where yelling begins, discussion ends. But also feel free to confirm my biggest fear: that I have taken a fatal, face-first dive onto a third rail.


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Comments
If you or I did what David Letterman did in the work place, we would have received our severance checks and been escorted from the building by Security.
Polanski was able to live a relatively care free life for 33 years after exploiting an underage girl. While he didn't get to live in the United States, he wasn't living a troll like existence under a bridge in Europe either.
Let Mr. Polanski sit in a court room judged by 12 jurors of his peers. I would prefer to let the court system work. If he's acquitted, so be it. If he's convicted, let his name be added to a Sexual Offender database and be tracked on the internet.
The famous shouldn't get special treatment because their famous or be we like their work. A lot of people like Dick Cheney, too.
The facts of the Polanski case are that he behaved way beyond the pale. But, and big BUT- I can tell you from unfortunate first hand experience - is that it really is the fault of an insane legal system and at this point- like you said, Cuss, Polanski should be given the plea bargain that was promised him at first. I am off today to the federal court to try to indict some City Attorneys for crimes against me. I just found out this is my legal right and I have overwhelming evidence to support that. In my case, I was innocent completely and my crime was that I wouldn't take their bogus plea.
Loooong story. But, of course, this made look at the Polanski case very differently(my case started off in this same Santa Monica Courhouse and let me tell you- pure corruption exists in that courthouse- get the right lawyer(or the wrong one) and see what can happen. In the polanski case there is evidence of ex parte contact, DA misconduct, and then Judicial Misconduct.
Too much for a comment, really. But, the most important thing I'm seeing is that we as Americans should preserve the outrage (that this victim isn't expressing) for Polanksi and aim it at the legal system. Polanski was rich and famous and was indeed a "victim" of a system that messed up. They messed up- sullied the pool , and played stupid and sick games. Polanski is a pig, a sicko, an exploiter of innocence. But, so is this legal system that had other things but justice in mind when they caused the environment that perhaps compelled Polanski to not live like a troll under the bridge in France.
Very complex situation: You have this cavalier exploitative and vicious act on the part of polanski, but if law was followed it is likely that some justice would result. It wasn't followed and so I say that the eyes of the American public should now focus on a legal system that has to be seen to be beleived. Forget about Arizona- if it could be comprehended what goes on in the "justice system" everyday --many cities and states should be boycotted until they clean up their acts.
That having been dealt with, on to Polanski. I find Mr. Polanski absolutely repulsive, I don't care if he's a great artist (although i think he is) and I do care about respect for our criminal justice system. I agree that Mrs. Kennedy and Kelly did equally or more morally repugnant things with fewer repercussions, and I don't like that, either. It does not make me think Mr. Polanski shouls also get a free pass.
What interests me here is the actual victim. Based on my reading, her mother was basically a fame-whore who offered her little girl up to a grown man knowing that he wanted to have sex with her. I can't imagine living my life knowing that had happened, and i wouldn't want it dredged up again. She is a grown woman now, about my age, and I do wish that prosecutors could work with her to reach a resolution that honors her pain and does no further damage to her life. If that meant Polanski slid away free, I could live with that. I have never seen any quarter in working up such a righteous head of steam that you run over the one person really and truly hurt by a crime on the basis that she "should" want to see justice done in the way most satisfactory to folks with agendas.
i don't watch news about celebrities, so have no opinion on polanski or the other guy (i never heard of). so my opinion is based solely on the way you laid the case, kept your cool, and used reason.
oh yeah, i do remember ted kennedy, who left the scene, got away with it, and people still talk about him like he was a "lion". i guess lions leave their messes for others to clear up.
you're still cool with me, mr. cuss.
Densie: I won’t argue about the statute of limitations, but I think there is a significant difference between Polanski and Nazi war criminals.
Fernsy: I sympathize with your plight completely. Do you need me to hire a hit man? (Really, I'm just kidding!) Kelly’s actions may have been consensual; I’m not sure if the law looks at that differently. However, the one count that Polanski pled guilty to would fall under the same category of consensual, so I believe Kelly's actions are on a par.
LC, Fay: Thank you for your comments.
Ann: Thanks for the legal perspective. I hope I didn’t imply that Polanski should get a free pass. If the victim still wanted to push ahead with the case, I would be fine with that. My point was that she doesn’t, so why are we insensitive to her wishes?
Excellent post; thoughtful. Rated.
Sorry I'm so late -- busy morning.
I'm going to address the elephant in the room -- your point about race. I'm trying hard to understand which direction you think the favor goes when race becomes a criterion.
In the case of O. J. Simpson, I believe race was but one component of the ultimate outcome of that murder trial. That jury was made of up anything but his peers. The combination of sports hero-worship, celebrity obsession and gobs of money caused all the scrutiny on the case. Add in a judge more interested in publicity than justice and you had a spectacle that had little to do with race. When race DID come in was in the court of public opinion and, I believe , in the jury room. There was an almost irrational, IMHO, fear that the same system that has sent so many innocent minority defendants to prison would find a way to railroad OJ in the same way. I believe it caused a miscarriage of justice.
On the other hand, Kobe Bryant's boneheadedness cost him a $4M bauble for his wife's forgiveness, a few months of difficult damage control for his handlers, and a tearful and, I thought, heartfelt apology at a press conference. His celebrity and his god-like status as a sports hero kept him out of the courts, and the court of public opinion was eventually dismissed.
Your assertion that somehow being white has been a detriment to Ben Rothlesberger and Roman Polanski because people feel freer to express their outrage against them is confusing to me. Have you forgotten the expressed and unexpressed rage among whites during the Simpson trial? Do you think for a minute that there weren't people of all colors calling for Kobe Bryant's prosecution AND dismissal from the NBA?
To me, these comparisons don't serve to make your point because there are so many other equally complex "systems" at play in each case.
As for Polanski, he did it, he should pay. I do understand a victim who says "enough already" and I respect that. That presents a tough conundrum.
Lezlie
So males are murderous and the outrage is more or less reserved for the female victims who, by and large, are not murderous.
With the exception of rape (which accounts for 6% of all reported violent crimes), males are the primary victims of all forms of violent crime. The year 2005 was overall the safest year in the past thirty years. The recent overall decrease has reflected upon all significant types of crime, with all violent and property crimes having decreased and reached an all-time low. The homicide rate in particular has decreased over 42% between its record high point in 1991 and 2005. Recently, however, the homicide rate has stagnated.
And what a lovely surprise seeing your smiling face on the cover!! Congrats!!! Finally, someone got the cover right!! ;)
Rated.
It all comes down to a sense of entitlement...the real root of all evil.
I'm back. Okay, I get your point. What you're talking about is people who don't have the courage of their convictions, who fear being labeled a racist for coming down on an African American. You're right, there is a lot of that. The same is true in the reverse. I have been villified for openly believing that O. J. was as guilty as hell of killing those two people. In an African American gathering, I am usually the only one who will say that out loud.
Lezlie
I do not think artist can free themselves from what is right and wrong in society, but help me find a way to free Polanski.
A govt prosecutes for the benefit of society, not for one person. Thats the purpose of civil court. Prosecuting Polanski is a GOOD THING. The kid needs to accept that her civil suit was for her benefit. Punishment benefits all when it is just. I can almost promise you, nomatter what she says, she will LOVE it when that dickwad is settled in a CA prison.
He has made himself the poster child for "persecuted artist (molester)". So he should BE the poster child for "prosecuted repatriated child molester". Same with the rest of them.
I don't care if they need to build a new wing for these fuckers. Throw the book at em, I says.
Otherwise a really interesting piece though I think more examples are needed. And Since these all seem to be sex crimes maybe you could look into the race/gender questions from the victim's (or as some my argue, the accuser's) perspective as well? Meaning that it would be interesting to know what the public reaction to a celebrity sex crime victim is by their race. Are the authorities more likely to believe a white woman over a black one? Is the public more likely to give a pass if the victim is of the same race?
Rape? Well, from what I've read of the crime it would be better described as a crime of pandering (by the victims mother) than rape. I know I did not look much different at 13 than 18, and I thought myself quite worldly, though this particular young lady was certainly not a naive virgin by any definition. There were other people in that house. So he did bad things with a woman/child. He made restitution to the one person that matters, the victim. She herself wants nothing more to do with this. The whole thing has turned into a distasteful pissing contest using up the very limited resources of the State of California. Direct the public monies where they will do the most good and be effective. Dragging Roman Polanski into a media court room circus is absurd. Let it go.
I say this with some background. My son was rendered quadriplegic for life at the age of three by a driver who deliberately attempted to bypass him with high speed in a sports car as he ran towards the sidewalk. This happened in Israel where the courts seemed to be impressed with the wealth and the connections of the driver to the extent of giving him a mild slap on the wrist for a driving misdemeanor. I could have spent the rest of the 30 year misery of my son's remaining life hating the idiot driver but my energies were much more needed in giving my son a life possible full of wonder and delight with whatever capabilities he retained and I was reasonably successful. What happened to the errant driver really concerned me not at all since his life meant nothing to me wither before or after the event.
The comparison with Polanski may seem a stretch but it seems to me important. Polanski is a talented man and has the potential to further contribute to human culture and this seems very valuable to me - much more valuable than satisfying the extreme vengeance of the justice system. His victim has evidently recovered and sees to have no motives for revenge. Nothing can be gained by anyone by imprisoning him as I sincerely doubt it will discourage any idiot from injuring underage girls. Viciousness by Polanski or the people who want to see him suffer benefits no one. Leave the man alone to do what he does well and keep an eye on him that he behaves. That's all that makes sense to me.
If anyone ever gets the time or chance they should check out case 8CA10541 in the Criminal Courts building downtown.
See how a broke city knowingly went after an innocent person and spent millions just because they were pissed off that the wrongly accused dared make fun of them in her blog.
"If prison is regarded as an educational experience it is an obvious total failure. One does not pay for a brutality by sitting in a cell or being tortured by brutal officials and fellow prisoners and consider the debt resolved."
I agree with that. I don't see any vengeance to work.
But of course we should somehow try to learn about this kind of cases so that it wouldn't happen again, I mean the whole society should learn, not only the criminal.
As for different treatments for different people committing similar crimes.
I have been working long times with 'highly' educated people at an university. At the same time I was working long times with 'little' educated people at a cleaning company. My experiences are telling that in general those highly educated people like university professors were not at all more honest or better behaving people than school drop-out cleaning workers, the opposite seemed to be the case.
I have known myself quite many artists and I have read quite much about artists. In general if somebody has got (=learned) abilities to do something artistic, it doesn't mean that the person is somehow morally learned.
If an artist or other kind of well-known person commits crimes the treatment should of course be the same as for anybody unknown to the general public. But vengeance doesn't seem to work at all... Neither the knowledge about hard punishments waiting for crimes.
Polanski seems to be now the victim of his own fame. Everybody knows that this guy, who is famous for doing some movies has as well committed horrible crimes. I don't want to throw more stones on the pile.
But the comments here reveal such a depth of ignorance as to the facts in this case, that it has stunned me.
So first, let's be clear. It's not "white liberals" who want Polanski brought to justice. For the most part, "white liberals" reacted precisely as the ones on this thread did; they whined about poor Roman, and talked about the girl's mother. I went through this on the Huffpo last year, and the number of "white liberals" clamoring for Polanski to be extradited was small indeed. White males in particular seem to subscribe to the Polanski defense: hey, everyone wants to f*** young girls. However, his support among white females is nothing to shake a stick at. It's strong.
It's feminists of all races, who have, by and large (there are feminists who disagree), took the stand that is ascribed to "white liberals" in this piece.
First, regarding some comments that 13 yo's can look 18. Though I absolutely agree with the law of the land, both then and now, that a 13 yo cannot give consent to an adult for sex, and that any adult having sex with a 13 yo is guilty of rape, I think it's important to be clear: this would have been rape if she were 30.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/polanskicover1.html
The victim's testimony. She cried and she said NO throughout. Each time, she said no. Roman Polanski drugged, raped, and sodomized a child. He asked if he could perform oral sex on her, and she said no. He asked if he could put his penis in her vagina, and she said no. He asked if he could put his penis in her anus, and she said no.
She stated she wanted to go home. She told him she had asthma and had to go home. When asked later if she had asthma, she said no. When asked why she said she did, she stated that she was scared and wanted to go home but he wouldn't take her home so she thought if she said she had asthma he would change his mind.
Roman Polanski drugged, raped, and sodomized a 13 year old child.
Now, let's move on to the bs about judicial and prosecutorial misconduct.
There was none. What there was, was Polanski, a rich, famous and celebrated man, cutting a deal for CHILD RAPE, and receiving a 90 day mental evaluation as "sentence". Let's be clear, the word "evaluation" is used for a reason. An evaluation can go either way.
Polanski was released after only 42 days of this 90 day "sentence". I wonder if his money and fame had anything to do with that? Or the fact that it was reported that he promised passes to movie premiers to employees at the facility? No you say? You think you would have been released after 42 days for drugging, raping and sodomizing a 13 yo? Oh, okay.
The judge in the case, was then given pictures of Roman Polanski partying at an Octoberfest with a bunch of young girls, during the time he should have been serving out his harsh 90 day sentence.
For the actual facts on the "judicial misconduct":
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-09-30/polanskis-lost-alibi/
Finally, as to the victim herself wanting this to end, well of course she does. For over 30 years, she has been denied closure. She was called all kinds of names, as was her mother, by Hollywood elites; Roman Polanski's friends. It's truly awful that this had to happen to her. There is one person to blame: Roman Polanski.
If Roman Polanski had not fled justice and chosen to live his life as fugitive, this would have been over long ago. But he did choose that, and in so choosing, he also chose to revictimize his rape victim.
In this country, we do not allow the victims of crimes to set the punishment. That's because we have a system of justice, not a system of revenge. And if we did allow the victims to set the punishment, then some Americans would no doubt have their hands cut off for shoplifting, and some violent criminals would go free simply because their victims were so traumatized that could not withstand a trial. Or because they were afraid of retribution. Or because a criminal's powerful elite friends kept calling her a whore and her mother a pimp.
In this country, we serve justice. And in Polanski's case, justice had not yet been served.
But if we don’t extradite Polanski, doesn’t he get away with it? Of course he gets away with it. In a sense, he got away with it the moment the DA offered a plea baragin. The fact is, people get away with it all the time. If everyone got what they deserved, we’d have to build three times as many courthouses, three times as many prisons and hire three times as many judges. Since this is impossible and the court dockets and prisons are already horrible overcrowded, DAs prioritize by dropping some cases or disposing of others with often laughably weak plea bargains, and far more dangerous men than Roman Polanski end up back out on the streets. California’s financial woes are well-established and their prison system is 40% overcrowded and at the breaking point. I can’t understand why the prosecution of a 77-year-old, who is no danger to anyone, whose crime was committed 33 years ago and who has been forgiven by the victim, should be considered a priority by a state that can’t even properly fund its state colleges.
My biggest point about the Polanski case is that much of the outrage is political posturing. It’s a slam-dunk for white liberals (like me) who are sensitive to having been called “soft on crime” for decades, and it’s a slam-dunk for white liberal men (like me) to demonstrate that they are disgusted by the victimization of women, because Polanski, as a perpetrator, has no p.c. downside – he’s white, creepy and unlikable. My point in bringing up R. Kelly and Ted Kennedy is that this posturing by white liberals (like me) often gets flaccid when faced with the sins of racial minorities or honorable public servants. This is called “talking the talk, but not walking the walk.”
I have an aversion to posturing. I consider myself a realist. Unfortunately, being a realist means that if I argue that prosecuting Polanski seems to be a poor use of California’s scarce resources, I’m confronted by posturers who assume that I’m insensitive to violence against women. I consider this line of thinking repulsive. I never start with the assumption that someone who disagrees with me is somehow morally inferior. This line of thinking pushes reasonable people closer to extremist positions and poisons any attempt at rational discussion.
I read Huffpo. I saw a number of male writers calling for his scalp. I also saw quite a number who didn't, but let's remember that many of the Huffpo bloggers are people from the entertainment industry who either know Polanski personally or know people who know him. That's a distortion of reality. Don't mistake the thoughts of Bernard Henri-Levy as being representative of anything but French intellectuals.
I read the op-eds of supposedly liberal newspapers, and they were almost unanimously in favor of extraditing him.
I never said any of these things, just to be clear. I read the comments, noted that once again, they were filled with falsehoods, myths, and gender stereotypes, and I posted links to the victim's testimony as well as to the background on the alleged "judicial misconduct".
Because facts can be illuminating and claiming "well she looked 18" has no bearing on a case in which the rapist KNEW her age regardless of what she "looked like" and two, the victim kept saying no, making it rape regardless of age.
There has been a decades long propaganda campaign staged by and on behalf of a very wealthy, powerful, and well-connected man. It's important not to forget that Roman Polanski drugged, raped, and sodomized a 13 yo child and then chose to become a fugitive.
And it's important to know that she said no.
She said no.
Just to be clear, I didn’t make that comment about the 13-year-old girl looking 18, and I was appalled by it.
@Craze Czar: Your idea has merit.
As to the idea of community service, that'd be something worth exploring. But I don't get the feeling Polanski wants to take responsibility at all. The reason I don't get that feeling is because after he fled the States, he said that all men want to f young girls. This seemed to make light of what he did, and what he did was drug, rape, and sodomize a 13 year old girl. He also entered a consensual sexual relationship with 15 yo Nastashia Kinski.
But the biggest reason I don't think he wants to take responsibility is because he's still whining! A lot of people don't know this, but what precipitated this whole affair was that Polanski wanted to be able to come back into the States and he had his attorneys petition to be able to do so. Their grounds?
Well, the state of California wasn't even trying to pursue him.
In other words? Polanski was asking for it. And the irony? Not lost on this girl.
"I would also be remiss if I didn't acknowledge that many of the arguments in Polanski's defense are ridiculous. The fact that he is an Academy Award-winning director should not give him one iota more standing in court than the neighborhood crack dealer."
Quite true. That Polanski is a great filmmaker has been acknowledged so frequently it scrcely needs repeating. However it's not, in my view, "off topic" to mention his survival of the Holocaust (his parents were exterminated in the camps by REAL Death Panels) or the death of his wife Sharon Tate and his friends at the hands of the Manson family.
" Any argument that the girl was at all complicit in what happened is abhorrent and repellent."
Abhorent, repellent and NECESSARY!!!!!
"Any discussion of the girl’s mother is irrelevant."
FAR from it. It's right on the money. After this is resolved (either through darring Polanski back to the U.S. for a show trial designed to get the egregious Steve Cooley elected state Attorney Genral of California, or an "in abstentia" ruling of some sort) I plan to write about this whole story at length.
And it's quite a story.
The "He drugged and sodomized a 13-year-old girl while she pleaded for him to stop!" aria was a Maternal Charade confected upon discovery that after leaving the girl alone with Polanski REPEATEDLY to have her pictures taken a Big Hollywood Contract was not going to be offered.
Mom (a small-time actress with Big-Time dreams) sells real estate in Hawaii these days. A good profession for a World-Class Phoebe.
She has been assaulted and revictimized by vileness like this by his loathsome Hollywood, woman-hating buddies for decades.
I think I would have either committed murder, or killed myself by now.
Take you Victim Fantasies to a decent shrink and spare the rest of us!
That the rich, regardless of race or gender, can afford the best legal representation money can buy is always a given. The only way it could change is if caps were put on said expenditures, as is suggested regarding political campaigns.
The male, or patriarchal entitlement is more culture-related. Women and children moved from being property to having individual rights and votes only in the last century. The laws and more importantly the attitudes surrounding statutory rape have changed accordingly. Congress currently endorses promoting our domestic violence laws and family court values internationally.
At the root of all organized religions is patriarchy. We view other countries and their laws and attitudes regarding women as lax and backward (12 virgins in heaven for Muslim extremists?) and we seek to promote our new ideals to the rest of the developed and undeveloped world. The majority of victims of violence are male but, by zeroing in on women and children victims, we seek to eradicate violence itself. It is a fight for the greater good, but it won’t be an easy one.
I offer no defense for Polanski, though I see no point in tossing a 77-year old man in jail for something he did 33 years ago and for which he has been forgiven by the victim.
He fled justice even though he was (as you admit later on) about to get a very light sentence; continued to have sex with underage girls; never expressed one bit of remorse; and insists on pretending he's too good and too civilized to be subject to the same justice as us rubes are subject to every day. If he had taken his punishment like a man, this whole thing would have been forgotten. We'd still be pissed about the light sentence, maybe, but at least we'd all agree he did his time as ordered.
However, I am troubled by two things that make me wonder if the outrage against Polanski is selective...
ALL outrage is selective, to the extent that we simply can't give equal attention to all instances of any crime simultaneously. Given that fact, however, selective outrage against a rich, successful, well-connected rapist is a half-decent counterbalance to the ordinary disparity between how rich and poor criminals are treated. Hey, one rich criminal getting the full sentence for his crimes, just like the rest of us, is better than none.
If anyone on the pages of Salon had a bad word to say about Ted Kennedy when he passed away, I confess that I missed it.
Ever heard of something called a "period of mourning?" Generally, it means we refrain from trashing someone who's just died for a short time. Very few people trashed Reagan immediately after he died either.
The fact that he is an Academy Award-winning director should not give him one iota more standing in court than the neighborhood crack dealer.
And yet it HAS given him more standing on your blog. Are you this equivocal when less-famous people try to flee justice?
Therefore, I am dismayed by much of the enmity against the victim because of her wish to drop the charges. She claims that the constant replaying of the gory details in the press feels like an additional assault. Yet some of the writers yelling for Polanski’s scalp seem to relish trumpeting those details.
No, we trumpet the details because Polanski's defenders insist on ignoring them, pretending they don't matter, or, in some sickening cases, misrepresenting them.
In light of the outage expressed at Polanski, the celebration of Kennedy and the reluctance to discuss his sin publicly seem bewilderingly hypocritical.
There's been no such reluctrance: it never left the public's consciousness, which is why Kennedy never had a chance of getting elected President. Also, we didn't HAVE to discuss it, because there wasn't a legion of apologists lying about the case and making up lame excuses for why he shouldn't have been held accountable. Many people were silent about Chappaquiddick, but it was a silent and unquestioned understanding that it would dog Kennedy forever. Also, Kennedy did face a trial, and didn't run away from what paltry sentence he got.
[R.Kelly] settled with one young woman out of court; he was tried on child pornography charges for possessing a tape that appeared to show him having sex with a 14-year-old girl (he was acquitted); he was arrested on another occasion for possessing additional tapes, but the charges were dropped because the search took place without a warrant.
Here's a crucial difference between Kelly and Polanski: Kelly didn't run away from justice. He was tried, and in one case, acquited, and in the other, the charges were dropped due to prosecutorial mistakes. Unfair, to be sure, but we're not "treating him with kid gloves" the same way so many people are coddling Polanski.
Furthermore, the victim's wishes really don't matter anymore. Polanski already pleaded guilty, and the verdict is now on the public record; so she doesn't have to testify and it's too late for her to withdraw her complaint. Besides, this is about more than one victim's feelings.
As for the victim forgiving Polanski and that being a reason to let it go . . . our justice system doesn't work that way. Thank god! It is arbitrary enough (as you pointed out).
AGREED:deport him and banish him permanently as an undesirable alien - definitely
ADD: 90 days home detention in the US - the full 90 days - for bail jumping - additional grounds for banishing him
Precisely, Ms. Nichols!
I've pretty much said my piece about Polanski here
http://fablog.ehrensteinland.com/2010/05/15/the-persecution-and-character-assassination-of-roman-polanski-as-performed-by-the-state-of-california-under-the-direction-of-steve-cooley/
and here
http://fablog.ehrensteinland.com/2010/05/25/charlottes-ruse/
The number of parents pimping out their children all over show business would make your head spin.
Michael Jackson anyone?
Please repair to the Smoking Gun to read the police report about Polanski's "victime" and what he did and did not do with her.
Needless to say the "He drugged and sodomized her while she pleaded for him to stop" meme remains.
Roman Polanski is a very great filmmaker and very flawed human being. But his failings are as nothign compared to the moral posturing of the mob that wants its pound of flesh from him.
Truly disgusting.
And, though I would not characterise it as morally equivalent, just ugly and stupid, I have great disdain for the people who fixate on this and other high-profile cases. Most children who are raped are raped by relatives, teachers or preachers, and friends-of-the-family. This is how it is, and it's rooted in our desire---decently rooted---that children obey adults who (at least normatively) have their best interests at heart. The same authority that lets Daddy, or Father Bill, or Rov Lev or Baba R'lyehi perpetrate rape is the same one that helps Daddy et al. keep a child from walking on broken glass in bare feet, or eat their dung, or believing in doctrines that will make their loving Father in Heaven burn them forever-and-ever in excruciating agony.
Our parents and mentors teach us that fire is dangerous, and that so are knives, and policemen are our friends (or our enemies, depending), and you shouldn't eat rotten food, and you shouldn't eat Treif or Haran food, and you must go to school no matter how unpleasant it is, and you must touch Uncle's Special Part no matter how weird it makes you feel. Survival knowledge, utter bullshit from voices in old shepherds' heads, lessons in love and your own utter worthlessness, activities that will help make life more enjoyable, and out-and-out rape under the badge of office are all conveyed in the same carrier-wave.
There is no good way around this, aside from maybe giving each child an AI implant that recognises a particular set of bad behaviours---and a gun---but today there is no good way around this. So, instead, people focus on the Evil from Outside as a way of ignoring the inward evil they can't expunge.
Instead, you must kill the Buddha when you meet him on the road: if you see him out There, you'll not notice that you are the Buddha. Instead, you must not obsess about seeing demons everywhere: you'll forget your own, despised, demon-nature. Instead, you must punish without delight where punishment will teach a lesson, and lest delight-in-punishing supervene your paying attention to where the usual danger lies.
There's a joke around that it takes a DEAD girl, or a live boy to bring about justice with regard to sexual abuse of children.
Polanski & Kelly? Should be sharing jail cells, in my opinion.
There's a joke around that it takes a DEAD girl, or a live boy to bring about justice with regard to sexual abuse of children.
Polanski & Kelly? Should be sharing jail cells, in my opinion.
I cant understood the irrational hatred projected
onto this man.
One quibble - the Kopechne death was indeed brought up here on OS when TK died (and caused a bit of back-and-forth). Tho an interesting theory I hadn't heard was mentioned, whereby TK might have been innocently ignorant of his backseat passenger... I don't think I buy it, because why wouldn't he have used it in his own defence...
If R.Kelly is getting away with, not murder but whatever, because of race, it's shitty - but think of the thousands, millions, of black people who got it worse because of race... a little pendulum-swinging here, perhaps. However, more like celebrity worship, I think.
Densie, war crimes were tracked down however 'cold' - but they're in a different category than this one, which is a one-off, and the victim apparently has 'forgiven' him and got on with her life. (This is not to be construed as support for Polanksi, but a comment on proportionality.)
Yeah, Ann, and momma should have got charged with something too, right.
Fay, while I agree - still, there are good reasons why the victim's say cannot affect whether a charge is laid or pursued. (Recently victims do get to address the court after judgment, and that's a good thing...)
Cranky, I think "consensual" even without regard to age is no free pass... There have been cases (I'm thinking of a ghastly living cannibalism thing in Germany) where the victim was an eager participant - but that doesn't make the thing not a crime...
Okay, I've gone on long enough, responding to responses, which is your prerogative...
OTOH, you're now in Finland? I saw a documentary on the prison system there that made it seem like humane and truly aimed at rehabilitation. Is true?
Wow, Estellar has converted me! At least for a minute or two... but Cranky, your response restored me... And agree with you re your response to CrazeCzar...
Estellar, certainly Pol isn't taking responsibility. The idea of having him be abused-women-phone-person was to try to penetrate (haha) his thick skull...plus the humiliation of such a 'lowly' job by such an 'exalted' personage, of course, tho we won't mention that...
Felhilly et al - I was once married to a *musician*, an *artist*, who figured that absolved him from responsibility and gave him license to be nasty. That particular argument annoys me personally. Thanks for addressing it.
David - Pol's parents' murder by the Nazis and his wife's murder by Manson are terrible, and no doubt affected his psyche. But that doesn't give him a free pass to harm other people... (If he could be set loose upon Manson, I could dig it... But some poor girl being peddled by show-crazed momma...no.)
Sorry, Cranky, for some reason this whole thread has, ah, turned my crank...