I do, however, have a fond place in my heart for the Dykes on Bikes. :)

So maybe the gay rights movement is becoming more mainstream and gentile, and these folks are loudmouthed, flamboyant and way out there but I hope it doesn't deny the important roles flamboyants, out there's and loudmouths have played in getting this movement rolling.

I'll have to disagree with you that they're not helping us....

I actually think they've done a lot to further our cause. They've paved a way for us. Especially one very flamboyant and loudmouthed Mr. Milk.

I disagree, in part, T. While they may have served a good purpose in the past, I think they harm us, now. Especially that guy in the second to last photo. I mean, doesn't he know that that bag doesn't go with those shoes!?!?! What self-respecting gay man would wear shoes and a handbag that don't match, HUH???

Yeah, you know I got you on that one.

Touche! But, wasn't he the one who manhandled your boobs with the salad tongs? ;-)

I can't see the pictures. Darn, wonder why?

Okay, with any luck, you should all be able to see the images now. Someone please confirm whether you can or cannot, please?

Kidding or not? Kind of hard to tell with you Dana. To me these are BEAUTIFUL. Absolutely beautiful. Fuck anyone who says otherwise.

Risa wrote: "Kidding or not? Kind of hard to tell with you Dana. To me these are BEAUTIFUL. Absolutely beautiful. Fuck anyone who says otherwise."

Well, then, fuck me, cuz I say otherwise. No, I was not kidding. No, I do not in the slightest think they are "absolutely beautiful." I think they are a political and social liability. So, fuck you, too, I guess.

JK Brady, you probably wouldn't want those drunk guys at the football game to be the image to the standard bearers for your civil rights.

I have no problem with gays and lesbians dressing and acting like clowns. But I do have a problem with it being associated with gay pride. There is no pride in that, and definitely no dignity.

When Joe Hetero is considering which applicant to hire for the job, I don't want his mind filled with these kinds of images when a gay person is one of the applicants.

Wait just a minute! Didn't you just write that kick ass article about how women should shout their powerful voices from the highest rooftops, and not keep their mouths shut in an effort to be more pleasing and attractive to men . Now you write that lesbians and gays should toe the line ( be prim and proper and not be mouthy flamboyant and outrageous) in an effort to get permission from straight America to marry whoever the fuck they want?

Hell no! I said HELL NO! We should shout our collective powerful voices and DEMAND what is rightfully ours. Not sit back meekly awaiting permission to marry because we've minded our P's and Q's, not made any waves and been good little Fags and Dykes.

I want it. I want it right now and I'll be damned if I'm going to cowtow to anyone in an effort to get what is rightfully mine.

Dana,

I do think you have a point, and for the record, I'm hetero. But I do have a live & let live policy. Last month, the Phonix Gay Pride had an ALL weekend festival in Steele Park. Great times, great stuff. But the bigots out there just used stuff like this for fodder in their agenda to "bash".

For what it's worth,

Tregibbs wrote: "Also - any citizen that actually thinks any kind of "parade" represents a whole group of people is a generalizing imbecile. So their opinion holds no weight anyway."

Unfortunately, they each get one vote just like you and me, so their imbecilic opinions hold exactly as much weight as yours or mine.

"People will be people, whether they're gay or straight. Doesn't matter. Every person that condemns this stuff, simply wishes it was themselves on a float.
Rock on !"

Sounds like wishful thinking from you. I definitely do NOT want to be on those floats; at least, not if I have to dress and act like an idiot.

This is about persuading people to take us seriously. If I want to persuade a jury to see a case my way, I don't go into the courtroom wearing hot pants and a tube top. And while I defend these folks' right to do any damn silly thing they want, I think it reflects poorly on us as a group, and makes it more difficult to achieve the serious goals that depend on the serious opinions of millions of Americans who think that these clowns are what we are all about.

T, what a fantastic comment. All I can say in response is that dressing like sex-crazed Bozos isn't going to get anyone to take us seriously. You know very well that all those twinks in their underwear were running around all day cruising for sex. Is that how you want Californians to think of us when they go into the voting booth in 2010?

I don't think those that oppose gay marriage for more right wing reasons will change their mind if all gays and lesbians norm themselves. A thinking person would realize anyone likely to be in a parade is also likely to be extreme in their sense of fun -- think Mardi Gras. Marching bands even look weird if you think about it. Shriners always look weird. I support gay marriage and it may be elitist of me but I don't think those who oppose it really came to their decision by thinking for themselves. Most just believe what they are told.

I forgot clowns in regular parades. They can be really scary.

It does seem that the whole ''shock and awe" parades have become redundant in the modern world. But I don't think they make Gay people look any more depraved than the Mardi Gras parades in New Orleans.

Come on, they were there to party and have a good time. I doubt anyone was worried about changing the world . Jeebus Christmas, they do it a couple of times a year. Besides, I doubt there were very many of the gay marriage gatekeepers in attendance anyway. Even if there were and even if it is broadcast on television, magazines and newpapers, there were far greater numbers of lockstep conservative good little lesbians and gays who make the uptights feel at ease with the fact that we even exist.

You are all making good points.

Still, when you want a loan from the bank, or the blessing of your priest, or when you go to a job interview, or when approaching the Godfather for a favor, you'd better dress well and speak well.

Parties are fun, but social and voting power is what gay pride is about these days.

It occurs to me that trying to make this serious point with my words next to an avatar of me in a bikini with a Freaky Troll (TM) face may dilute the message just a tad.

Maybe we need some floats with gay men wearing business suits, khakis and polos - jeans and t-shirts (preferably sports-themed); we could also have floats with lesbians wearing business ensembles, designer evening wear, sensible sundresses and such - probably no pant suits, and certainly no doc martens or birkenstocks. We should probably also have a stroller parade.

Maybe if we look just like "them," they'll realize that we are just like "them." What happens when we actually become just like "them?"

San Francisco mayor Gavin Newsom was in this parade. He wore a navy blue suit with a white shirt and a red tie. What a fucking whacko!!!

Sometimes I think there must be a lot of pressure on any group of people, who are fighting for their civil rights, to always be on their best behavior in order to win converts to their cause. Because there are always going to be bigots who think that the more, um, flamboyant ones represent the whole group, and that is why we can't trust them - they're just not normal, after all!

So, I understand what you're saying. As a hetero who completely supports gay marriage and equal rights for gay people, and who feels that sexual orientation needs to be added to the list of protected classes of people under any and all anti-discrimination laws, I don't have a problem with the images above. But I do think that they only serve to reinforce the prejudices of bigots.

I just don't know what you do about that.

The pride parades have always been exceptionally flamboyant, and it once embarrassed me too. I have never actually attended one, although our local parade takes place just down the street from my home, within crawling distance, really.

Do we really want to portray ourselves as stick-in-the-mud fuddy-duddies who don't know how to have a good time? Why must we hide the breadth of the gay experience from the straight folk? When these parades started, years ago, people were concerned about how they would be received, about how far it would set us back, but it my city, more and more straight folks come out to watch and support us, accepting us in our range of existence in the world. I think it is well known that these parades are outrageous and flamboyant at times, and that the participants have families work in regular jobs, and have day to day concerns like any other Americans.

Support for the gay community and its civil rights have come a long, long way since these parades began, and the parades have become a gathering place for all progressive people who believe that there is room for all of us in this world.

Some things I see embarrass me a little, and maybe that's okay. Maybe I need to stop being so worried about what others think, because in the world of civil rights, all of our choices, provided no one is harmed, should be supported.

I don't much care for the idea of dressing conservatively, hiding our playful nature, and pretending to be in such an ugly, unfortunate state that we ought to be given respect and fair treatment out of pity. That idea, which I first read about in the classic lesbian novel The Well of Loneliness many years ago, is not how I want to be seen.

I'm not a parader, but I like it very much that they exist. Some day I might actually become a parader or watch from the street, but as it's going on, I watch people walking to and from their cars, straight and gay alike, holding hands, smiling, and happy. We sit on the porch and wave, smile, and feel good with each other. My neighborhood needs more of that.

I just added another photo to the post...a group of gay people NOT looking like clowns...and I think it makes a stark comparison. If people saw us like the last photo, we'd be more likely to get what we are working for. As long as they see us like the first photos, I think we've got an uphill battle.

Did you read the excellent article re: this issue in The Root? A solid point, though I'm sure many would mourn the loss of the parade. I think a similar point could be made for 420 celebrations; they reinforce the fear that legalized marijuana would mean all our public spaces suddenly become full of hippies and smoke clouds.

But we're not just like them. And that should be okay.
Damn, this makes me want to cry. This is incredibly sad. :-(

You say "drag queens make me want to barf" (as your sole tag for this post) but "I do, however, have a fond place in my heart for the Dykes on Bikes" (in your first comment).

Uh, any idea why that might be?? Seems to me you are granting lesbians the right to their thing, but not (some) gay men.

As a counterargument though, I share my experience (as a straight person) living in Madrid, where everyone would go out to watch and celebrate along with the pride parades. The parades were great parties, and made being homophobic seem pretty fucking uncool.

Silkstone, both of those were meant only as silly jokes, nothing more.

I totally agree with the point here. Very well made. I've had similar thoughts and made some additional notes on this perhaps for another time.

you might be right but the parade sure is fun.

I must say that as a straight male and a conservative I agree one hundred percent with your assessment of the Gay Pride Parade. As my father used to say to us as children before going out into public, "Children, try to appear normal." I think it works as you said.

In Australia,the Gay Mardi Gras parade is held in Sydney.
With thousands of international visitors, and locals, crowd
numbers usually exceed the nine hundred thousand mark.
Enlightened thinking lets representatives from our armed
forces,and,the police service,march and ride with the
Dykes on Bikes,some of whom ride topless,in peace and harmony.
That the event injects $14 million into the economy,is also very welcome.

I agree with you. You should read this article from the onion:
Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance of Gays Back 30 Years.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491

I see the fringe elements as funny, but I know that they are fringe. Some people don't.

Here is the beginning of that Onion article I referenced above:

WEST HOLLYWOOD, CA–The mainstream acceptance of gays and lesbians, a hard-won civil-rights victory gained through decades of struggle against prejudice and discrimination, was set back at least 50 years Saturday in the wake of the annual Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade.

Enlarge Image
Participants in Saturday's Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade, which helped change straight people's tolerant attitudes toward gays.
"I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."

Delia, you do understand that the Onion article is a joke?

Of course it's a joke, but I thought the joke was appropriate to the situation. :)

I love the Sydney Gay Pride festival. Its a celebration and people should be able to wear whatever they want. Look how happy the people are in the photographs - that should be all that matters.

"Drag queens make me want to barf." ????? Dana, are you sure you're not just kidding? I wish I could leave this alone, but it is really bothering me. Doesn't anyone else see this as internalized homophobia? Do any of the gay folks here remember past struggles for gay rights? Not to mention the decimation of gay culture by HIV/AIDS? I think gay rights includes the right to be comfortable in one's own skin. Do we believe in free speech or not? Gay pride parades are not political demonstrations, they are celebrations of diversity and self-love. I want to believe that we are tolerant people who can appreciate diversity. Even when it's over the top. Perhaps especially when it's over the top. I'd rather not be taking myself and my people so damn seriously here in OS, where I feel very welcomed, but gosh, this is really bothering me.

Please don't let my tag bother you, Risa. I wanted to put some silly, outrageous tag, and I settled on what I think a great many of the straight population think when they see gay pride parades. It does not reflect my view -- after all, I'm as queer as they come -- but what I believe is the view of the Great Unwashed throughout America. All of whom are people who get to vote, donate their money to political causes and some of whom do Matthew Shepardy kinds of things.

As for thinking America is a tolerant place, I almost spit Diet Coke all over my keyboard when I read that. My take is that the USA is a decidedly UNtolerant place when compared with other first world democracies.

NB: the use of the non-word "untolerant" was intentional, not a typo or my ignorance.

Also, while I do believe what I said about how gay pride images get into mainstream American heads, this started out as a fairly lighthearted post. See my first three comments for a hint of my mood at the time. It has, however, gotten a bit more serious since then.

I wastn't referring to America, Dana, I was talking about OS.

Since cunnilingus is a non-reproductive sexual act, it has been frowned upon by the Religious Right for decades. My understanding is that HPWPC (Heterosexual Persons Who Prefer Cunnilingus) are now mobilizing for visibility and mainstream respect. Can't wait to see those parade floats.

As an aside, I think of the Doo Dah Parade, which is an anti-Rose Parade we have in L.A. That parade is a straight parade, and it is filled with outrageous costumes and such. I think the Briefcase Brigade is one of the best things in Doo Dah. It's about 50 men and women in suits and ties, carrying briefcases, and doing drill routines. The difference between that parade and the gay pride parades is that Doo Dah is silly and outrageous, and gay pride parades are SEXUAL outrageousness. I'd probably have no problem with outrageousness in gay pride parades if it weren't all so sexual.

"It occurs to me that trying to make this serious point with my words next to an avatar of me in a bikini with a Freaky Troll (TM) face may dilute the message just a tad."
Dana Douglas

You know that comment made me laugh like hell :D Let them be silly and over the top- they are among friends. It's good to have a chance to just be who you are. This is a Pride parade, it's not a parade for equal marriage or civil liberties, it's a celebration of who we are as a culture- like Mardi Gras celebrates the Creoles.

Dana,
This reminds me of decades past when women who wished to succeed in business had to dress like a stereotypical old maid, repressing their sexuality and freedom of dress. Even today some women must conform to a dress standard that is a carryover from the men, a pin striped suit with a skirt below the knew, a ruffly blouse under the brooks brothers styled jacket the only nod to woman beneath.

Times have improved but we're not yet "all the way there" as you attempted to point out in your now infamous post that lives no longer. You can't bemoan the loss/suppression of your own sexuality in the workplace one week and then exhort others to do exactly that the next. While some of the more outrageous attired may work independently or in the arts where such forms of dress are perfectly acceptable I don't doubt that the majority clean up quite well and may even face you in court, as an opposing attorney, not a defendant.

Or maybe you're just trying to stir up some trouble you devil.

And as Lady T can tell you, I am nooooooooooooo prude! Without going into details, I am as sexually open and adventurous as they come. I just don't think we need to parade (sic) our sexual sluttiness in front of the straight world in a non-sexual setting (i.e., a parade down a public street in the middle of a weekend day). Even that would be fine if it were a general sex parade. But this is "gay pride," right? Let's do something to be proud of.

I seem to be pretty much alone on my side of this argument. Amazing how all you people could be so stupid!!!!

;-)

It seems you're giving more importance to the parades than they have. Most of us, day in and day out, do not see people dressed in drag. We see parents, and clerks, and teachers, and whatever else, some who are competent, some who aren't, mostly just doing what they need to be doing. It's these ordinary interactions that win arguments, and those arguments are not lost because of some people having fun with feathers.

As to the photo of the crowd, I see a whole bunch of white people. In the parade? More minorities. It's safer to be gay and white than gay and of color.

Incandescent said:

"I'm fighting for the right for us all to live as we wish, not for all of us to live as I would wish."

That is brilliant! :)

Ms. Michaels: I noticed that exact same thing about the last photo, and you are right. It is much safe to be gay and white than gay and black or hispanic. Sad.

well you should've sat on Miss T's hands- you had me sold till I read her

Does this mean I get to come off the stupid list?

Ah, fuck, Delia beat me to it with the Onion article from a couple of years ago;).

Dana writes: "I just wanted to say that this image......is what I think will get us to be taken seriously. Not the gay pride parade clowns."

Not the case at all. The fact is that all of those other images WILL be taken seriously by the larger community. And they should be.

A parade is an opportunity for the groups involved to display their values and behavior. And that's good information. For example, when you see a military parade you get an idea of what the military is like.

What I find most interesting is that you criticize such behavior in gay parades based on the fact that it hurts "the cause." But you don't criticize the behavior itself. I'm not sure how to interpret that. For example, if gay men want to walk around in public with their asses hanging out of their underpants, their genitals barely concealed, would that be Ok with you if it didn't hurt the cause?

As a straight male who actively supports equal rights for gays, a question: who wants to be compared to the drunken louts who make Mardi Gras such a tiresome spectacle, whose connection to traditional and indigenous music and culture has been obliterated by barbarians and commercialism?

Way back when the Irish were the scum of New York , they staged their famous parades. Now? Same way with the Italians on Columbus Day. Pride parades. Who needs them now? What do they accomplish?

The same questions apply to Gay Pride Parades, far as I can see. What positive purpose do they serve? Riskiness and outrageousness have been supplanted by what looks like mere self-indulgence.

Ok, here's where I get in the shit, potentially.

It's the classic conflict between the RIGHT to do anything within reason we please within the laws of the land, and what ideally SHOULD be done.

In a perfect world, maybe the pride parades would be more subdued. Then again, in a perfect world maybe there wouldn't be rampant insecurity and persecution and a need for GLBT people to have to fight so damned hard against people in general in life.

The problem, as I see it, is where to begin the cycle.

Sorry if this comment isn't much help.

Dana, you're a seriously cool person but I can't agree with you, partly because I didn't wear much more than this in the Carnaval parade, back in the day, and partly because I see it as important to protect expression, as long as it doesn't attack anyone. Anyway, it's a festival, not a conference.

Dana,
One of the words I hate most in the English language is "dignified." Each time I read an article in a newspaper that is using that word to describe the person who is being interviewed, I know they are referring to an African American. My guess is that the writer of an article like that means well--s/he's trying to say that so-and-so is worthy of respect, or acts courteously, but it always comes across as a back-handed compliment: dignified, as opposed to loud and obnoxious and carrying-on, OR dignified, like a good old dog that you can sit with quietly. My point is, you can be discriminated against because you're dignified; it's just another code work for "black". Perhaps the word "flamboyant" can only be applied to gays now, I don't know.
I don't have the answer for you. The people in the parade look to me like they're having fun, but I dislike drunken assholes, so maybe I wouldn't enjoy floats and floats of them. But it also strikes me that gays and lesbians can act as dignified as they want to, but at the end of the day, if the person you're talking to is a homophobe, how you dress or act isn't going to make much difference.
Once again, I'm sitting on the fence, because I certainly see your point. But I hate the idea that we all have to try to conform to some "correct" behaviour in order to have basic civil rights.

Can't wait for the Cunning Linguists Parade - I can lick any woman in the joint!

Mishima, your example seems unfair because if people could walk around exposed and it caused no problem and only doing it in a parade caused a problem, that would be weird. I think she's saying that it's as much of a problem to have overt sexuality for homosexuals as it is for heterosexuals.

If the social/mannerly rule is that this is just not something to do in public, then why is advocating that gays should follow the social/mannerly rule inconsistent? If the rule is "only between consenting adults" and the street is full of non-consenting parties, then isn't she just saying to follow the rules the straight community has followed? I don't see that as inconsistent. I think you made up a case she didn't mention and that you're assuming she means and then arguing against it. But maybe I'm misreading the post.

Aaron writes: "And then there's Mishima whose indignation at what he perceives as some kind of unacceptable behavior is on display yet again."

I'm not indignant. I just want to know if Dana has a problem with the behavior in question because it hurts the cause or because it's unacceptable public behavior. I think that's a fair question.

Aaron: "The identification of 'normal' behavior has always been troubling to me."

People who are social conservatives don't have much problem with that.

I have to agree.

Oh, I think there is room for all. I have an appreciation for those who are willing to politicize themselves while satirizing the lifestyle Fire Island stereotype. But I agree, there needs to be a sensitivity both within gay and straight culture that these hedonistic images chosen for a parade are no more representative of how gays act all the time than the people you find crowding Royal Street on Mardi Gras are representative of how straight people act all the time. If we can all be cognizant of the media's tendency to show something out of the ordinary, and that we should not take these images at face value but recognize people are always discovering that people are more complex and similar to them than they first thought.

I guess I am saying, I'm all for the guys in those pictures being a public face of being gay --- but I agree that it's a shame they tend to be the ONLY face of gay culture that most people encounter in the media, and certainly that helps no one.

I'm with Risa...beautiful. Thanks for posting them. xox

This is an old argument in the gay community that will probably never be settled. I don't believe that the nose thumbing, in your face attitude is past its time yet. There is a difference in wanting to have the rights of straight people and becoming just like them and I am not so sure that I want them if that is the price. There are those like your visitor from area code 666 who will always have it out for gays regardless of what they wear and those on the fence need more information than just fifteen second clips of pride parades.
A bigger outrage than these yearly flashes of mayhem that people like our resident hater will use to define us despite additional evidence is the lack of other images to balance those of our own personal Carnivale. Which by the way is a perfect example. Does anyone think that Mardi Gras revelers look/act like that year round? No. If we are going to rail against gay imagery then let's fight the lack of it and the stereotyped image of it that is presented.
We became the flamboyant, in your face, miracles that we are today in part as a response to the oppression, (beatings, firings, electroshock therapy, imprisonment, abandonment) of straight society. We developed our own codes and hooked up in dark places as a response to their pushing. We lived lives in the crucible of their hate and ignorance and were formed by it. We watched our lovers and friends die while they sat by and said it was God's punishment. I personally don't intend to give them anything else.
Gay Pride celebrations are part Mardis Gras-have fun while you can, bust loose because this is the one time a year when we are celebrated and part Halloween/Day of the dead- confront your ghosts, day of reckoning, in your face trick or treat? It can be either one (trick or treat) that's for them to decide, the man in the crazy costume is just playing his part in the grand scheme of things. So just give him some candy.

Not being familiar with the life of Earthlings I ran this post through the Big Galactic Interpreter. This is what came back:

"Public nakedness in modern Western civilization is met with a certain disapproval that might be detrimental to any cause associated with it, be it gay pride, international soccer or other. Such disapproval was not always the same (see: public nakedness in the antiquity etc.) and it is not universal (see: naturist movements etc.) but it is real and mostly ubiquitous."

Aaron writes: "Sounds like it bothers you."

It doesn't bother me. I just think it's bizarre behavior. Frankly, if the Southern Baptists decided to dress like that on "Baptist Pride" day I'd say the Baptists were weird.

Aaron: "Since we all benefit from the 'spread' or width or whatever you would like to call it of the distribution, why are we forcing people closer to the 'norm'?"

I'm not forcing anyone closer to any norm. It's just that the gay community can't have it both ways. They can't say on the one hand that they are "just like everyone else," and then on the other hand either a) exhibit bizarre behavior or b) try to justify bizarre behavior.

tregibbs writes: "I suppose that the 'normal behavior' of social conservatives is to (among other things) cheat on your wife, lie about it, condemn others for doing the same thing you do, become addicted to oxycontin, solicit sex in an airport bathroom with another male... I could go on."

If a bunch of social conservatives decided by celebrate "Social Conservative Pride Day" by committing adultery,taking Oxycontin, and having sex in airport bathrooms, I'd say that THEY were bizarre. I wouldn't have any trouble at all making that determination. I would say that they certainly don't represent me or social conservatism.

Permit me to remind you of what Dana said earlier in her post: "Therefore, we need to chill out the nutiness in front of straights, and show them that we are, like we keep saying, just like them."

Well, most people in the straight community don't have any problem discerning normal from abnormal behavior.

Tijo writes: "There is a difference in wanting to have the rights of straight people and becoming just like them and I am not so sure that I want them if that is the price."

So here's a simple question: are people in the homosexual community "just like" straights (Dana's assertion) or are they not? (Tijo's assertion.) Which way is it?

In a simiar vein, I once heard it remarked by someone attending an Austin anti-war rally, how that at the rally she saw several people dressed up in clown make-up. This was disheartening to her, because she felt this need on some folks part to act out in ways that was offputting to straight society had the effect of delegitimizing the rally. She imagined carrying a sign that read "I'm Against The War... But I'm Not With These People!"

I have no problem with the clown acting pics... They show panache.
good luck with the cause.

I am straight and this doesn't bother me. It is a way of people expressing themselves. On many occasions I have seen straight people in some akward costumes at certain arenas - Football games - Music Concerts - Political Rallies -And yes, they can dress in risque and akward ensembles too. When seeing straight people who dress flamboyantly I don't judge him or her to represent a group. I look at him or her individually. I lived in DC and when walking in the areas where most gay people lived I saw versatility in personality like your pictures represent above. It didn't affect me one way or another. The only thing that really bothers me is when I see gay guys who look better in shorts than I do!

As a straight woman with mostly gay friends, I can see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, there is the right to express yourself, but it can be damaging to a cause to reinforce negative stereotypes. What would our reactions be to an African-American Pride Parade in which participants wore sagging pants, carried mock assault weapons and crack pipes and yelled unintelligible slogans? Is it the same thing?

Back in the mid-seventies dykes on bikes were the most prominent distributors of cocaine in downtown Gainesville and the U/F student ghetto. It gained them more acceptance than any parade could have done.

"She's thrilling and chilling , yeah, she's so divine
She's mine (mine) Mine (mine) woh-oh-oh
Candy Girl" - Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons

They are just like any other group. You know the ones. The looney left wingers like Code Pink and the looney right wing Evangelicals. They get the most publicity because they are not boring.

As one Dana to another, and since I know your big bad ass can take it, this post's lament is full of shit, honey. Or at least that's as academic as this post deserves. If you don't like gay pride parades, don't look, don't tell, darlin'! The problem, as you admit in your less full of shit moments here, is not gay pride flamboyance. The problem is that America is only a superpower because it spends more money on bombs than most countries spend on their entire budgets, not because it models for the world a tolerant, open-minded, equal rights standard of living for everyone.

If you want to dress for church every time you go out, you go, grrrl! But try not to oppress the rest of us (and the LovelyLady T) with your just as obnoxious as Rush Limbaugh conservatism. The Pride in gay celebrations is in precisely embracing all our incarnations, which lasts at most a week a year. You have the remaining 51 weeks to convince the straight, Neanderthal public that the rest of the time we all dress like lawyers and make money off other people's suffering. I would imagine there was a PFLAG contingent in the parade, and just because your parents disowned you doesn't mean you couldn't have taken a photo of what I'm sure was a less flamboyant group. You see what you want to see, hon, and, unfortunately, what I see in this post is an internalized self-loathing that obviously all your "I am woman, I am invincible" incantations have yet to reassure. But keep on rockin'. Good to see you back.

Oh, Dana. My heart swells when I go to the Pride Parade and I see everybody around me (crowd AND participants) fully embracing whatever they choose to, without shame and without embarrassment.

It gives me joy and hope that someday we'll all be able fly our Freak Flags high, even if our freakishness isn't quite leaning in the same direction.

I'm with Verbal on this one. I'm rather saddened by all the negative judgment here - drag queens are people, too.

Dana:

You are so right on this one. I have long maintained the best thing going for the pro-choice movement was the tactics of the pro-life movement. Blow up a clinic? Galvanize the opposition.

Well, for gay rights to gain mainstream acceptance, there is a need to strike a chord with some honest socially conservative people. Yes, there are homophobes hiding behind the bible to justify their bigotry and they won't be reached no matter what happens.

But sitting in the pew next to them are just honest Edith Bunker types with hearts of gold and no real exposure to (openly) gay people. Calling them homophobes if they say timidly they are not sure, view marriage as between a man and a women, etc, etc is not going to win them over.

I know this, because I was one of those people back in the early to mid 1990s when, on an internet message board, a guy by the name of Glenn Greenwald took the time to explain the legal issues behind all of this to me in a respectful and highly intellectual way.

I have been a staunch supporter of gay rights ever since.

So I look at pictures like that, and I personally do not care if folks like to dress up like that. It's their deal. I might even have fun going to a bar where that kind of attire was the norm as a sort of anthropoligical field trip.

But I see that as an open parade? Even I get a little pissed off, because I KNOW how much that angers the very people that need to be influenced and swayed in order for legal discrimination against gays to end.

Sure, it did it's think back in the village in the late 60s and early 70s. It got the nation's attention.

Now it needs mainstream acceptance.

And that kind of shit almost guarantees it won't happen.

I'm with you on most of the extravagant entries in the parade. As a southerner who went with a nun friend, well we had problems with the S&M crew. Glad you agreed with the Dykes on Bikes. They were pretty cool when we were there too.

While living in L.A. during my 20s I had gay roommates and friends and bosses who all seened more or less "normal". And in the media, gay activists seemed to always be asserting that gays were just like everyone else and they wanted to be treated the same as everyone else.

...AND THEN...once a year the gay pride parade would send the exact opposite message...being gay is all about flaunting unconventional sexuality by wearing strange underwear in a parade and acting lasivious for the cameras. We don't want to be "normal", like everyone else, we want to be an in-your-face spectacle.

Hmmm...I could never imagine there being a "straight" parade where straight peopled donned strange underwear and danced around in the streets.

So, yeah, the disconnect was jarring and if you want to know why Jethro thinks gays are perverts, try watching the next gay pride parade through his eyes.

Hm. I can see what you mean, but haven't seen that kind of backlash though that may be due to my living in gay-friendly cities (NY now, Houston in the past).

It kinda seems to me that if someone doesn't look fondly on the gay community or take it seriously to begin with, watching all the DQs and colorful revellers in the parade won't make much difference.

I'm also in the beauty biz, and have a few gay boyfriends who LIVE for the parade and are generally up front with their fabulousness on a daily basis. Hence, this kind of display seems normal to me. I looove me a good drag queen and have serious appreciation for what they go through to create their illusions.

And you know, it hadn't occurred to me before to ask my lesbian sister and her wife about this before, but now I think I shall have to. While they're active in the theater, they tend to be a little more conservative with their own behavior and lifestyle, so I'll be interested in their take on it.

Rrrrrrrated!

Do you think people associate gay people with the eccentrics? I don't but I love the eccentrics. They're the ones who make life interesting.

rated

I see your point and it is a very good one. The last photo is what WILL encourage change.

I agree with you Dana.

Dana, while I love camp and the Sisters and Dykes on Bikes, I've always felt a little ambivalent about the boys who "wiggle their weenies" and the bare breasted girls on the club floats at the San Francisco parade, too. My concerns are not connected to prudery (I go to sex clubs) but out of concern for how those images are used by others.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for youthful exuberance and I know that even wilder shenanigans are regular occurrances at/outside of many "straight" clubs. I do like JK's comparison to the over-the-top, half-naked (or naked) painted male football fan.

I've reconciled myself to their presence, as I suspect that their absence isn't going to make a whit of difference to our die-hard homophobic enemies. In support of your post, I think it important to raise such questions, and think it unfortunate that community discussions of the same are often shut down with accusations of "self-hatred" or the like.

I just ignore the "self-hating" comments, as they add nothing to the conversation and are simply an ad hominem demonizing technique and a way of shutting off discussion; e.g., "I like chocolate, and anyone who doesn't is a child molesting maggot." Doesn't help much, does it?

There have been several comments to the effect that it makes no difference to the way those "die hard gay haters" feel about us. True enough, I suppose. But those aren't the people we need to convince. "Die hard haters" will always hate. But there are a LOT of moderate people who CAN be convinced, and . . . whacky as this idea may seem . . . I think we should do what it takes to convince them. Wow! What a far out, crazy idea, huh?!

I agree that there are a lot of moderates and, as someone else said, Edith-Bunker types who can be convinced. I don't have a problem with people dressed this way, but to some folks, this is threatening. It also gives the media, which thrives on shock value, a chance to splash these pictures around. It is true, though, that now there are more mainstream depictions of gays to balance this out than there used to be........

What's a parade without clowns?

Pride parade was in Toronto last weekend and the C.N. tower was in rainbow lights for the event. Kinda neat. (Everyone loves the $$$ that comes in from this event ... which, tho I didn't see the parade, was, I daresay, no more flamboyant or sexy than Caribbana, the Toronto Caribbean/carnavale event. I've been in the Ottawa parade ["Paganism is for Everyone"] in past years, just behind the Anglican Church contingent, which featured no underwear...wait a minute, that didn't come out right...and it was pretty tame. But of course, that's Ottawa.)

Of course, I've just come back from a pagan festival, where the clothes and accoutrements mean that, yes, FingerLakes, 'flamboyant' can be used for straight people. I shared a cabin with three gay men, but got a ride home with a straight guy, who forgot to change into civvies and gassed up and got a burger while still wearing his sarong and matching top. Not terribly flamboyant set, really - kinda nice beige, actually, and he looked quite wonderful (regular men's clothing is pretty ugh). But he noticed people staring and took off the sarong, under which he had a pair of *normal* shorts...

"Parties are fun, but social and voting power is what gay pride is about these days."

Respectfully, i disagree here. 364 days a year i wrassle with the concept of being 'accepted' into society at large, even tho i am (gasp) homosexual.
on the 365 day, i think we've earned the right to let it all hang out. i think Gay Pride is a celebration of our right to be (be gay, be colorful, be obnoxious, be half nekkid, be kissing your same-sex partner, be representing sexual minorities, BE YOURSELF). it's the one day a year we are allowed to show up in numbers, and know we are in 'safe space.' that we don't have that option every day is the reason people go overboard, and i respect the right to do so. to reign in that behavior for the sake of convincing more straights to accept us is to hint at suggesting that they are right, we should be more like them, we should be more straight, less gay, less colorful.
"It's ok if you're gay, just don't be THAT gay."

i do agree with the suggestions that we should have other contingents in the parades, business-suited professionals, moms, dads, etc etc etc. but not to the exclusion of the fringe of us. they are still us.

and..i think Drag Queens are sexy :)
thumbs up for doing your thang, starting the convo. listen to Lady T tho, she's got ya on this one ;)

Tregibbs writes: "Dana - I think you're forgetting it's a parade. It's NOT an accurate representation of ANY group of people. That would be like a foreign diplomat visiting our country on the evening of October 31st. Why in the WORLD would you feel the need to convince someone to accept you?"

I want people to accept us because I want the right to marry my partner of 22 years; I want the tax and financial benefits of marriage; I want the rights of inheritance, medical decisions, parental rights and child custody, adoption and all of the other rights that we are without. And even in states that give us various of those rights through differing devices, I lose rights when I travel to another state.

I want people to accept us so that I don't have to worry that I will be physically harmed, even raped, because my sexuality offends someone. I want people to accept us so I don't feel guarded and uncomfortable expressing affection that straight people take for granted.

I want people to accept us because I don't want my practice to suffer because people fear or disapprove of my lifestyle -- be it clients, judges, jurors or other attorneys.

I want people to accept us because I want full membership in this society that I work so hard for and give so much to.

And I think the brief joy of shaking my tits and ass around in a stupid parade for the public to see, and watching others do the same thing, pales in comparison to those rights and benefits that have eluded us for so long. If I really need to shake it all and act like a sex maniac, I can do that at parties, in bars, at festivals where people pay to get in, or with friends.

You don't see pride parades for any other group -- Irish, Blacks, veterans, Mexicans, etc. -- getting all publicly sexual to show their pride, do you? No. Just Mardi Gras, nothing else.

It's not the whooping it up or dressing in funny outfits that I have a problem with. It's the blatant, over the top sexuality. It's offensive to a LOT of people. And I as big an exhibitionist as there is, so this isn't coming from my own prudishness. Can't we get goofy and silly and celebrate who we are without a bunch of cocks hanging out? Look at the photos in this post. Look at the people on the floats. It's all about showing your dick to the public. What the fuck is up with that? Can't you be gay and proud without showing your dick to people? Talk about self-loathing!

"Why is it you think that gay men & women shouldn't be as silly and flamboyant as straight people? (i.e. Mardi Gras)"

Be silly. Be flamboyant. Dress up in costumes. Do your hair big, or wear a wig. Sing. Dance. Be funny and outrageous. But why does the straight public need to see your dick or my tits? Why must it be so overtly sexual?

I have no problem with displays of sexuality in the abstract. I'm all for it, in fact. But we are struggling for rights, here; all of us, across the whole nation. Why fuck it up for something as trivial as a parade? It sounds so childish: "I want to flaunt my junk just because I want to, and I will never admit that it causes any problems, ever!" Sheesharoni. Go be all publicly sexual at Mardi Gras, where it's not sending a gay/lesbian message to the masses, just a generic sexual message.

We're in a fight here, for godssakes.

""drag queens make me want to barf" begins to paint a more accurate picture of what's going on here - you may not want to be on one of the floats, but you sure seem to be envious of all the fun they are having, as told by your strong reaction to all of this human silliness."

No, sorry. What you're doing is called projection. I am not envious. "Drag queens make me want to barf" is what a lot of the straight public thinks when they see gay pride parades. They don't see families with children, or the co-worker at the next desk, or the guy making them a loan at the bank. They see drag queens and people who are celebrating what they consider deviant sex. A lot of those folks might be willing to tolerate and accept LGBT folks, but every June when they turn on the news the only gay people in the world that are ever brought to their attention are on floats shaking their nearly naked asses and flopping their dicks and tits all over the place, and it offends them. They could be brought to our side. Not the rabid haters, but a lot of regular folks. But we sabotage it when we are complicit with sensation-seeking news media.

I like having fun. I like letting it all hang out. I like looking hot and having others appreciate me and desire me. I like sex. I even like having sex with lots of people watching me. But I don't do it in a fucking parade. I don't do it in front of people who would misunderstand, who wouldn't tolerate it, who would think that it is my central defining characteristic. Not if I'm trying to convince those people to change the laws in my favor, I don't.

"The impact your parents behavior has had on you, certainly translates into some form of self loathing and homophobia. Otherwise this stuff wouldn't bother you as much as it seems to."

Ah. So we get to the ad hominem attack, now. First, you bring my painful relationship with my parents into it. Then you say that anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of self-loathing and homophobia. I suppose the appropriate answer to your insult is to simply tell you to fuck off. But I won't, because I want you to know what's really behind this.

I want to marry my partner so bad I can taste it. I want gays and lesbians to be accepted in every state. I want us to have the benefit of the laws that I work to enforce every day of my working life. We are right on the cusp of getting it. We just need to convince another 10% or so of the population. We need to swing those regular, reasonable folks who aren't bigots but have no daily contact with LGBT people. They're right there, almost within reach.

And then some of them are driven away by seeing images like I posted above, along with the inevitable mocking commentary of local newscasters when they report on the local parade. It just reinforces what they have heard about gays their whole lives.

It's stupid and counterproductive to engage in blatant, over-the-top, public displays of gay sexuality for no more than the instant gratification of the typical frat boy, at a time when it is important to consider the big picture, and we are right on the cusp of getting the rights we need and deserve.

Go ahead, shake your dick around. Parade around in nothing but your briefs and shoes, making sure your package and your half-boner are prominently visible. But can't you just do it out of the view of the sensibly conservative (in the social sense) people we need on our side, at least until after *I* get the right to marry my partner?

I'm not talking homophobes. I'm talking good-hearted people who wouldn't be caught dead parading around in their underwear and would be horrified to see their children or their neighbors engaging in such overt displays. Good folks, without prejudice, who simply lead private, ordinary lives. People who might be on our side, and might actually vote for our rights or at least not actively oppose them, if only we avoid confirming all their worst fears about gay people.

I'll tell you what. There is a huge gay club here, where you can parade around in your panties to 2,000 people who will truly appreciate your humongous package, if you want. I'll take you there. You can get your freak on all you want, and there won't be any news cameras just waiting to capture the most outrageous bits for the sole purpose of showing the straight population what bizarre weirdos gay people are.

Or is there something about showing your package to straight people that is so damn important that you'd choose to sacrifice people who might otherwise be on our side?

There is a larger picture to consider.

Please, oh, please, don't be like them!

How can you tell everybody in the photos are gay?

tregibbs writes: "You [Dana] are projecting your own shame onto a few parade goers."

I don't see that at all. She's talking about how these parades are perceived by people in the larger community. A "gay pride" is a gay pride parade. It's not Mardi Gras, nor is it a private party. A gay pride parade basically says "this is who we are and this is what we're proud of."

Question: what exactly is "prideful" about a bunch of men walking down the street in their underwear? This is the image you want to project? This is what you're proud of? I guess you could also take a piss in the middle of the street and then you'd really have something to be proud about.

At least some of the lesbians have nice motorcycles. . . . .

I don't see one penis exposed.
Yet, I see your breasts hanging out in your avatar picture.
Are you being hypocrital?
And you describe yourself as a blonde, busty liberal lesbian. Is that good for your movement?

There is NOTHING wrong with swishy men or drag queens. To say Dykes on Bikes are cool, but so many flamboyant male gays are not, well, it does not reflect well.

I agree 100%. You misunderstand me again. I'm talking media politics and parades, not the value of a human being or cultural imperatives.

I misunderstood nothing. Your bias towards your gender is clear as a bell, cloaked in humor or not.

Spring Break !

tregibbs writes: "Answer: Now you're talking the ultimate double standard."

In those other situations you mention the people aren't representing anyone but themselves as individuals, though the "Girls Gone Wild" crowd might arguably be said to represent "drunk party girls." And frankly, I don't know anyone who takes "pride" in Girls Gone Wild or drunk party girls.

The issue is really just how you want to be known. I would wager that some tens of millions of people in the U.S. see gay pride parades (as currently constituted) as being a negative portrayal of gays and lesbians. It might work in San Francisco, but it doesn't work well in the rest of the country, and perhaps not even in the rest of California. The Veterans of Foreign Wars aren't walking down the street in Speedos on Veterans Day. Paleontologists aren't displaying their behinds on Paleontologist Pride Day. There's a reason for that.

You refer to people who would find sex-oriented gay pride parades offensive as not rational and well-adjusted. But consider Tijo's remark in a previous comment:

"I don't believe that the nose thumbing, in your face attitude is past its time yet. There is a difference in wanting to have the rights of straight people and becoming just like them and I am not so sure that I want them if that is the price."

I think he's right, in the sense that part of the purpose of such parades is to thumb the collective nose at straight people, to let it be known that the gay community really isn't just like everyone else. In that context, if straight people are offended, then it's "mission accomplished."

Mish,

Those tens of millions of people around the country you mention are horrible haters, perpetuating violence, persecution and second-class status on homosexuals. This is what the Miss California debate is all about. There is NO EXCUSE for denying any group equal rights, somehow even more true for a God-Given group like homesexuals. It's NOT OK to justify bigotry, discrimination and violence under any guise, regardless of their capacity to digest history and theology. Gay people march because for so many years they couldn't. Now they CAN. Let them get married in peace and all this goes away in no time.

Aloha Mahu

So, Aloha, I want to make sure I'm understanding you. Is your position that all those who are not yet in favor of gay marriage are "horrible haters, perpetuating violence, persecution and second-class status on homosexuals"? Because that's the only alternative you gave to being currently in favor of marriage equality.

Are there no people occupying a middle ground? No people who can be convinced? No people for whom marriage equality might be a palatable notion if it is presented to them in a way that is easy to digest?

You seem to think that all people occupy one or the other of the extreme poles. Is there no one near the equator or in temperate zones? People who are, due to upbringing, the media and lack of experience, against equal rights but who might be willing to change their minds if it doesn't offend their sensibilities?

Lets call it what it is, hate.

And, it sure smells like the foul odor of the self-loathing Pauline father permeates every inch of of a haters essence, in my subjective view. Really Dana, religious apologist? That is some very unattractive company.

Okay, well now we know where you're really coming from, anyway.

really indeed.

Oahusurfer writes: "Those tens of millions of people around the country you mention are horrible haters, perpetuating violence, persecution and second-class status on homosexuals."

What you and so many others apparently don't realize is that vast millions of people in the country -- nice people, good people -- don't like "raunch culture," whether hetero or homosexual. They don't like Girls Gone Wild. They don't like Penthouse Magazine. They don't go to strip clubs. They don't eat at Hooters. And they don't approve of men dressed in underwear and other bizarre clothing in so-called gay "pride" parades.

But I don't really have a dog in this fight, and if gays or lesbians don't have enough sense not to put on public sex shows in the name of gay pride, that's fine with me. You go for it, and tell me how that works out for you next time you ask all these "horrible haters" to vote for one of your pet issues.

Dana, I believe this behavior, while funny and at times entertaining because of the voyeuristic freak show aspect to it, does not reflect well on anyone wanting to put their case to the general public that, "See, we're just like you, except in one way. A way you'll never see because just like you we're in our bedroom doing it(or not doing it) same as you. So you have no reason to be afraid of us living with you, teaching your children, adopting children, being their scout leader or priest. This parade shows you how proud we are of ourselves."

These parades do the exact opposite. But have the parade ever been intended on showing gays in a positive light to the public at large, in the first place? It wouldn't seem so – because they’ve always been this way. Who would want to get to know or work side-by-side with any of these exhibitionist, side-show-freaks with adolescent in-your-face attitudes? Straight or gay?

The participants in the parades I've seen (in West Hollywood and NYC) don't give me the impression they are there to unite themselves with - anyone, except perhaps in a bathroom stall. And how does their behavior exhibit, "Pride?" Their costumes and over-the-top antics are appropriate for the Halloween Parade and Fire Island (do people still go there?), not for a parade, which I believe is about being proud of themselves. It'd be like having a black pride parade and only gansta rappers in it.

Behaving in this manner doesn't bother me, as a straight man, but it bothers my gay friends who are absolutely nothing like these parade goers whose behavior reinforces and ultra-emphasizes the purely carnal nature of what turns resistant, straight, people off to even the idea of gayness. They are real people who don’t define themselves by their sexuality. The parade makes sex the sum of its message and that hurts your cause - because that is what people can't get passed and focus on.

Therefore, with bull dykes, nelly queens, S&Ms, B&Ds and people running the streets in their underwear don't expect people say, "You know, gays are just like me, and they can't help how they are, they are lovely people. What's say we have queer Bob over for dinner on Tuesday."

How does this parade represent the gay attorneys, teachers, social workers, ministers, accountants, athletes, business owners, civic leaders, entrepreneurs, etc., the non-exhibitionist average gay person who doesn't define themselves by their sexual preference?

Dana, I believe this behavior, while funny and at times entertaining because of the voyeuristic freak show aspect to it, does not reflect well on anyone wanting to put their case to the general public that, "See, we're just like you, except in one way. A way you'll never see because just like you we're in our bedroom doing it(or not doing it) same as you. So you have no reason to be afraid of us living with you, teaching your children, adopting children, being their scout leader or priest. This parade shows you how proud we are of ourselves."

These parades do the exact opposite. But have the parade ever been intended on showing gays in a positive light to the public at large, in the first place? It wouldn't seem so – because they’ve always been this way. Who would want to get to know or work side-by-side with any of these exhibitionist, side-show-freaks with adolescent in-your-face attitudes? Straight or gay?

The participants in the parades I've seen (in West Hollywood and NYC) don't give me the impression they are there to unite themselves with - anyone, except perhaps in a bathroom stall. And how does their behavior exhibit, "Pride?" Their costumes and over-the-top antics are appropriate for the Halloween Parade and Fire Island (do people still go there?), not for a parade, which I believe is about being proud of themselves. It'd be like having a black pride parade and only gansta rappers in it.

Behaving in this manner doesn't bother me, as a straight man, but it bothers my gay friends who are absolutely nothing like these parade goers whose behavior reinforces and ultra-emphasizes the purely carnal nature of what turns resistant, straight, people off to even the idea of gayness. They are real people who don’t define themselves by their sexuality. The parade makes sex the sum of its message and that hurts your cause - because that is what people can't get passed and focus on.

Therefore, with bull dykes, nelly queens, S&Ms, B&Ds and people running the streets in their underwear don't expect people say, "You know, gays are just like me, and they can't help how they are, they are lovely people. What's say we have queer Bob over for dinner on Tuesday."

How does this parade represent the gay attorneys, teachers, social workers, ministers, accountants, athletes, business owners, civic leaders, entrepreneurs, etc., the non-exhibitionist average gay person who doesn't define themselves by their sexual preference?

Sorry, I don't know how this double posted.

Mish,

Those millions of haters don't limit their hate to the flamboyant paraders, its across the board. There is no heterosexual example that compares. I care not for their votes, younger citizens ignore them completely, soon they're archaic influence will wane.

I looked at these pictures. I wondered if this is why I'd never really wanted to participate in a Pride Parade thing even though many of my friends are into it, and I'm generally all about the silly.

In the end it all reminds me too much of Mardi Gras and a time for everyone to let down their stuffiness and embrace the wacky and strange and to try and find the beauty in self-creation and self-expression. Maybe it's because I embrace the wacky every day and choose to live in a slightly surreal world, but nothing annoys me more than people who try to go wacky and do a poor job of it.

Making a celebration costume that is beautiful and expressive is one thing, dressing up to try and freak other people is just... juvenile. I don't really know what I think about how this sort of thing represents "our community", I've never felt particularly welcomed by "our community" and have yet to find any single cohesive concept beyond, 'shut up, and let us do our thing, beyotches!'.

Having said that, I'll go back to doing my thing, letting you to your thing, and letting them do their thing.

Excellent photo essay and excellent points raised. Thank you for sharing all of this.

I have marched with my Lesbian daughter in Pride marches in Columbus, Ohio and I don't find them to be embarrassing or any of the other things you said. They are celebrations of what these genuine, beautiful people feel. Maybe it would make more sense if "straights" could loosen up a little more.

You know I just read all of the comments here and I am always amazed at how some OSr's just can't be serious about anything. I will admit this is a sensitive subject with me. My daughter, as a lesbian deserves the same rights as anyone else and the gay and lesbian communtiy has the right to celebrate anyway they wish. The remarks here that are demeaning to women, all women are unnecessary and ridiculous. The ignorance here is profound. Please understand that I also read very positive and heart felt remarks her also. I just find this exploitive type of writing offensive. Maybe more time should be spent trying to write a story or a poem?