Your tags pretty much say it all, Dave. Excellent post, making your point with no muss, no fuss. Now I want to study further to see if a person can trend toward psychopathy without being a total psycho tool.

Thanks for the links.

I've given some thought to posting a pop-psychology analysis of King George the Dubya's particular neuroses. He could provide enough material for a three day psychiatric conference.

sally. i talked to Dr. Hare and there about that very question. there are degrees of psychopathy, with some more "pure" than others, but most people turn out to be a yes or no--ie, toward either end of the scale. the score distribution is nothing like a bell curve.

there are 20 characteristics (i kept the list short to avoid copyright problems), and evaluators rate the subject on each trait, assigning a score from zero to two: two if it clearly applies, one for partial or sometimes.

So the maximum score is forty, and a thirty is required to designate “psychopath.” There are degrees of psychopathy, but most subjects turn out to be highly psychopathic, or not at all.

(The vast majority of people score in the low single digits, and most psychopaths well above 30.)

There is another particular group in the middle though, though for a particular reason. There are ten personality characteristics and ten behavioral.

The average criminal scores about twenty on the test, because they share some behavior with a psychopath, but few of the underlying drives.

Those people are definitely NOT psychopaths, despite their score being more than halfway there. A psychopath is a particular type, with very clear characteristics driving their behavior. The fact that they end up acting the same way as criminals in general terms does not mean they operate the same way inside.

It takes both personality and behavior to hit a 30 score, hence the cutoff there.

Does that help?

Well done.

Sally makes a good point.

Wayne,
Do it. Let me know when you do.

Rated

Sounds like a classic sociopath/narcissist. And they don't see it. At all. HUGE blind spots. Really hoping I'm not one! Pretty sure I'm not. Thanks for this Dave.

I'll have a lot more links soon, Wayne. Psychopaths take up got three printed pages of the Bib in my book, but I need to find the links for my Resources page. I hope to have get them together in the next month.

---

Mary, yup.

btw, i've gotten lots of terminology flap over the years about psychopath vs. sociopath. they are largely interchangeable, with each one generally relegated to certain fields, all of whom seem to insist that the other term is out of date, useless or unused. the truth is that both are used widely, but by different groups.

nearly all the top researchers on the condition prefer the term psychopath, and use that (as do law enforcement), so i went with that one.

Dave, a fascinating post, and I would add that the book "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout makes for interesting reading if you haven't already read it.

Thanks for this Dave,.........It was truly the press conference from
"The Twilight Zone" Serling is no doubt raising out of his grave as we write! I am so worried our state may implode............

Basically, they have a total lack of conscience. They are "felons" in the sense of the word that they do not adhere to any moral code but their own--so the legal code is superfluous. (That's how they get in trouble.) Their grandiosity gets the better of them.

They're a lot of them around in almost any walk of life. Because they have so little, or no conscience they are often able to rise to the top with few of the fears that befall lesser mortals. It's important to be able to recognize them.

I wasn't sure whether you were speaking of Blagoyevich or Cheney?

THAT is frightening, indeed.

great post. thanks!

umm, you're saying not all politicians are psychopaths?

Wow, that really does describe a lot of politicians, particularly the governor on the hot seat at the moment. Oddly, many of the same traits that help them to succeed can cause them to fall hard, eventually. Very interesting post.

good stuff. this gave me a hearty laugh:

umm, you're saying not all politicians are psychopaths?

Dave,
An enjoyable read. There are lots of people with personality disorders (conduct disorders, psychopaths, sociopaths, character disorders, narcissistic/borderline personality disorders, antisocial, etc.) in powerful positions. There are also lots of them in prisons (the primary psychhiatric diagnosis of most prisoners). They all share common characteristics as you mention, and they exhibit symptoms in varying degrees depending on developmental and situational factors. Entitlement is a common characteristic too, and watch out when their entitlement is pricked by someone or some event. They really get crazy then. Sorry about the length here. I've spent a lot of my professional career working to better understand and work with people with these practically intractable personalities.
rated

I WAS NOT AT MY BEST DURING THOSE OLD TESTEMENT YEARS, OK?! LAY OFF!

An EXCELLENT book is "Bush on the Couch: Inside the Mind of the President" by Justin A Frank. However, if you're into a really comprehensive Jungian analysis, check out "The Madness of George W. Bush: A Reflection of Our Collective Psychosis" by Paul Levy.

I wish I had administered this test to my ex-husband before we got married!
rated

Interesting... I would be interested in reading what the difference is between a psychopath and a sociopath, although in comments above it was stated that there is controversy with the terms. I *thought* (but am not in that field) that a sociopath behaves in ways that are anti-social, but for a psychopath it is that much worse, there is no conscience at all and they can kill without feeling... anything. But this is not necessarily an accurate, medical diagnosis.

One thing I am wondering, and that I would love for you to touch on: It seems that many of those traits are also shared by at least some people suffering from addiction. Do you see any overlap or connection? I am thinking of the abundant charm, the manipulativeness, the lying to your face, failure to accept responsibility, the need for unhealthy risk-taking, which imo is part of the 'high'... the risky behaviour associated with the addiction, the danger of getting caught etc.

Am I off-base with this observation? Is there a difference? Many addicts can also be con artists, and this con-artistry, if you will, allows them to scam their friends, employers and lovers. They may bounce cheques and when you try to contact them, they won't answer e-mails or phone calls and simply avoid it and put it out of their minds. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it doesn't *seem* to affect their conscience.

My ex was the captain of his pool team (playing at a fairly high level), and as such was collecting fees to be paid to the league each week. When he split, they found out he had never paid these fees to the league. He also told his employer at the end -- (this is a really excellent employer in town, and he had charmed the two co-owners and was more friendly with them than any of the other managers were and had been invited to the one fellow's beach house) that he had a family emergency in another province, so that he could continue to collect his paycheque for that much longer, until they realized he was not returning.

So, is there overlap? Is there a connection? I mean, I realize not all psycopaths are addicts, and not all addicts are psycopaths... but perhaps there is a larger representation of addicts within the psycopath population? Just wondering...

This sounds somewhat like the traits I remember listed in a book about sociopaths.

Are you familiar with the distinctions? Or is this just a question of semantics?

In either case, yes, there are way too many politicians who believe they are "special" and not servants of the people. Thus they develop certain behaviors in office.

Or were they pre-deposed to such behaviors before even running accounting for their attraction to positions of responsibility?

Very interesting. I'd like to see Wayne's analysis of King George, too. And though I said it before, I'll say it again- It's nice to see God Almighty stopping in on the conversation.

Wow, Dave, I thought that was a list of characteristics common to OS posters.

Quite a good and informative post. rated

So that's why I could never bring myself to run for office!

for the most part, psychopath and sociopath are interchangeable, with each preferred in different sub-fields.

(eg, psychologists are generally taught "socio" and MDs, which include psychiatrists are taught "psycho" in med school.)

most therapists went the non-MD route, so you're likely to encounter "socio" if it comes up there. (but hopefully they're not bringing the idea up too often in your sessions. hahaha.)

that distinction is not always true because there are lots of definitions of sociopath out there--not everyone agrees on the term, and there is no measurement tool.

but most professionals who use sociopath are taught it based on the 20 criteria Dr. Hare established in the PCL-R (Psychopathy Checklist, Revised (it was originally 22 criteria). they use the same diagnostic criteria, then use a different name.

so in MOST usage, they are identical. though an important minority of leading thinkers use a different definition for sociopath, so it gets dicey.

neither is in the DSM-IV, unfortunately, which went with Anti Social Personality Disorder (ASPD), which almost no one likes. (it only measures behavior, so it includes all those criminals described above, and is fairly useless.)

but at least it is universally defined. psychopath is, too, since the PCL (in the 70s, i think). until then, there was a huge terminology problem with psychopath, too, with all sorts of variations in definition out there.

---

i've been meaning to check out "The Sociopath Next Door." i need to do that.

really interesting (and funny) comments.

great question about addicts, cyn.

i see a lot of similarities there, too, and i remember the idea coming up a few times, but it was not relevant to my subjects, so i didn't pursue it. so i don't really know. i have no expertise on that.

i do recall that in cleckley's initial study in the 1930s, which was the first major systematic approach, though still limited--he used a VA hospital (psych ward, if i remember correctly), where he worked as a psychiatrist--a huge number of those he diagnosed as psychopaths were also alcoholics. (it's been about five years since i read it, but i believe it was way, way over 50%.) however, that may have been due to his subject pool: a large number of the long-term residents were there BECAUSE they were alcies, who could not function on the outside.

i don't recall addicts coming up a whole lot in Hare's work, so maybe he found less overlap, or maybe i just didn't focus there, because it was not the type i was interested in.

(a prof named Millon and his team came up with ten primary subtypes. i can get you the ref on that if you want it. much of my knowledge is focused on my subjects. eg, he has one scholarly paper laying out the ten subtypes which is cited everywhere, and considered THE defining work on that. and i read the whole thing carefully, but about seven of them were not remotely like eric, so i moved on. one or two had some similarities, but were clearly not a match. then two both screamed eric. it was fascinating to see how that worked. so i went back to my team of shrinks, one by one, asked them which subtypes they thought without telling them mine, and they all picked one or both. then we argued particulars to death and all agreed eric was a combination of the two. so i spent hours and hours on those two, but i can't even remember what the other eight are. for all i know, one of the is "the addictive psychopath." it just got filtered out of my study.

i guess that's a danger i have to be aware of.

Dave--interesting that many of our politicians have these characteristics. Dr. Hare's website should be read by those crafting ethics legislation. We need to find ways to keep these people from breaking the law.

Thanks for the tip on the photos--I was able to enlarge them and they look so much better now.

Hey, my Gov. resembles those remarks.

As a former Financial Advisor for behemoth UBS Financial I can tell you that politicians are psychopaths and Financial Advisors are their sociopathic counterparts Dave. I got out with most of my sanity still intact. I had the intellect and knowledge, but too much of a conscience.

We need to automate that psychopath personality test and offer it for free online !!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol catherine. i've often thought that.

ah, bless you, umbrella.

i've got one coming soon, but the holidays and other work stuff tied me up. (just got home from a family visit to chicago.)