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Dave Cullen

Dave Cullen
Location
New York, New York, USA
Birthday
June 03
Title
Author/Journalist
Company
Written for NY Times, W Post, Slate, Salon, Daily Beast. Publisher Twelve (Hachette)
Bio
An expanded paperback edition of my book COLUMBINE came out March 1, 2010. Links to the book and my bio below: http://www.davecullen.com/columbine.htm

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MARCH 12, 2009 4:46PM

On the NYer and BBC, but kinda sad

Rate: 30 Flag

New Yorker homepage with Columbine book featured, by Dave Cullen

I'm gripped by fierce mixed emotions this afternoon.

Tuesday, the New Yorker asked me to do a Q&A for their book blog, about my book ColumbineThe interview is up right now--both on the book page, and featured near the top of their home page.

Making the New Yorker was a lifelong dream. I expected a glorious  day--and I am happy about. I was pleased by the questions from Lila Byock, and she was really generous with her intro.

But it's been a gloomy day and a half, too. Events intervened.

Lila first wrote asking me to do it on Tuesday, and her editor wanted a quick turnaround--posting the next day. It was the New Yorker, so of course I said yes. 

I got the questions just as I was heading to the gym that night, where I did one hell of a workout to make up for two weeks off during my trip to Harvard and NYC

So I got home, had dinner and looked at the questions at 10 p.m. I got to bed at three.

I slept in, woke at 10 a.m. still a little groggy (I like my eight hours!), and went straight to email. My inbox was filled with media requests. Uh oh. I knew it had nothing to do with the New Yorker thing. Something horrible has happened inside a school somewhere. I started opening them, and they referred to things like "the German tragedy." God.

Two years ago, I got the Virginia Tech news a similar way. A BBC colleague I'd met through the wonderful Dart Center called as I was literally getting out of bed. He asked me to appear on air to discuss "the events in Virginia this morning." I groaned, involuntarily, and I remember exactly what came out of my mouth. "Oh God. What happened in Virginia?" 

I was asking for the particulars, because I knew the gist. Someone had opened fire on a school there. That's when I get the call. I had not pictured something that awful, though.

Yesterday, I was a little more used to it. That doesn't make it much better. So sad.

For now, I guess this is who I am. The school shooter expert.  Hopefully I had something useful to say, but I am looking forward to writing second, third and fouth books on more pleasant topics, and getting the phone calls when something wonderful happens.

(But will I actually write books about happiness? Hmmmmm. I might not take that bet.)

I am happy about the New Yorker piece, though, and I like talking about this topic, grisly as it might be. Since I dove in to learn about spree killers several years ago, I have come to find them fascinating.

So I try to do my job, sometimes keeping a safe emotional distance from other tragedies. It's the survivors that do me in--and the victims. I talked to my shrink after one particularly bad round in 2006, and we agreed to some limits. I made a rule when Virginia Tech happened that I had to change the station or FF when any victim profiles came on. I get too emotionally involved that way, and it's just too much. I expect to follow the Columbine people in some way for the rest of my life, but I can't take more into my life that personally.

Anyway, if you want a listen,  I was on BBC-2's noontime "Jeremy Vine Show" today, and you can hear the whole thing here. (There's a scroll bar which will take you right to me at mintue/second 11:08, but the journalist right before me was excellent, reporting from the school in Germany.)

I'll try to get links to other shows I did later, as podcasts go up.

We delayed the NYer posting by a day to add in a question on the German situation. The rest of that interview was conducted before we knew it happened.

---

I'll try to get back here with more thoughts on the German shooting.

So far, the reporting seems very responsible. I found this opening of a Yahoo News story this morning really enlighening:

WINNENDEN, Germany – "You will hear from me tomorrow, remember the name of a place called Winnenden."

Authorities say a 17-year-old left that message in an Internet chat room six hours before he went on a rampage in his former high school and killed 15 people in this southwest German town.

Tim Kretschmer wrote that he was "sick of this life" and planned to storm the school the next day "and really toast them," Baden Wuerttemburg state Interior Minister Heribert Rech told reporters Thursday.

The transcript released by authorities gave the first indication of what might have driven Kretschmer, described by his peers as withdrawn and shy, to carry out a bloodbath on Wednesday before turning a 9 mm Beretta pistol on himself after a shootout with police.

"Everyone laughs at me, nobody recognizes my potential," Kretschmer wrote in the German-language chat with a teen in the neighboring state of Bavaria. The Bavarian teen told his father and then police about the chat when he realized the threat had been real.

Since then, it has been reported that Kretschmer was treated repeatedly for depression.

Two huge cautions: 

1.Be very careful about early reports. A pattern does seem to be emerging here, but the early reports tend to be tiny bits of the puzzle, which can be very misleading about the full picture.

2. As I told the NYer, "There is no accurate profile of the school shooter, but there are several useful categories." I laid out three of the common categories in a piece for Slate in the wake of Virginia Tech.They are 1) psychopath (Eric), 2) angry depressive (Dylan), 3) severely mentally ill, with a complete break from reality (Cho, apparently).

Within each category, comparisons are extremely useful.

So far, early signs are looking a whole lot like another Dylan Klebold, but without the partner to spur him on. The fact that we have an actual medical diagnosis of depression is powerful evidence, although sometimes other conditions can present as depression.

So the diagnosis can change as we get more data. Don't allow him to get boxed in too soon. But keep an eye on depression. In the Slate piece, I laid out a thumbnail of how depressives tend to go interalized self-hatred to externalized. 

In the book, I have the luxury of showing that slow evolution by Dylan  over the course of several chapters. I think he's probably the most interesting, and tragic character in the book--which is not at all what I expected when I started writing. But the Slate piece hopefully gives you an overview of how the process usually unfolds in an angry depressive.

---

FYI, The Dart Center for Journalism and Trauma has wonderful resources for understanding tragedies and reporting on them, including case studies, tipsheets and this PTSD 101 guide.

---

I want to use this moment to thank all you OSers for the tremendous support you guys have shown me over the long, slow process of this book launch. It's like nothing I've ever been through before, and I've enjoyed sharing it. I always feeling maybe I'm sharing a little too much, but I've really been encouraged by the responses here. It helps.

We got the first edit of my book trailer last night, and I'm thrilled. I love everything about it except my face (seriously, unfortunately--but that's between me and my shrink, right?)

I think the filmmaker, Andrew Kemler, is brilliant. (He worked on South Park for years, and both Matt and Trey's movies, and those guys don't work with no slouches.) We hope to have it posted soon. I'll definitely let you know here.

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Yikes! Dave, I didn't know about the German school. I will go back and listen. So, how does it feel to be the go-to expert? And how does it feel to have people waiting for YOUR answers?
I thought the New Yorker (wow) was really good. Your answers were thoughtful. Great job!

I'm sorry that the success is tinged with sadness. I'm sad that these kinds of events have to happen.
Dave, you were the first person I thought of when I heard the news yesterday. I figured you'd be incredibly busy. Thanks for dipping in here and letting us in on your thoughts.

Thing is, I knew kids like Eric and Dylan in High School, and I'm pretty sure everybody else did, too. But that was in an era when the "seal" hadn't yet been broken.

Seems like the first school shooting opened something up. Took it out of the realm of the tabboo. Moved mass-murder of the people you're trapped with (and hate) 5 days a week from the "unimaginable" column to the "imaginable" column. Something.

Rated.
Thanks. I'm glad staying up paid off. Hahaha.

(I can never write quickly. At 10 p.m., I thought, "Can I knock this out by 11? Hmmmmm. 12, I should be able to make." Nope.)

Verbal, that seal-broken idea is perfect. Can I steal that?
'Tis not stealing, Dave. It's R&D (Rob & Duplicate).

No, that's not original eihter.

I was thinking of the phrase "breaking the seal" as it's typically used in terms hitting the head after a night of drinking, you know...you can hold it in for hours, but once the seal is broken, there's no stopping and you're in the bathroom every 20 minutes...
The news out of Germany is so sad. Along with the shootings in Alabama, it seems like this kind of thing is happening more and more. I think Verbal's idea about 'breaking the seal' is interesting. I look forward to reading your book when it comes out. I really can't understand why people would do such things, and I think some insight will be helpful.

Congrats on the New Yorker too!
Dave, congratulations on getting into The New Yorker!

I had posted the German High School shooting as a breaking news item yesterday morning just after it hit the AP wires, but I think many missed it here after it left the feed and it was not featured by the Editors.

I mentioned in a comment to Joan K that perhaps you might be posting about it given your extensive research that went into the Columbine. I was right, you posted something today!
Dave,
alas, your hard work and research has made you an expert on a very sad phenomenon. Take care of yourself. You have done a very good thing researching the details of Columbine so the rest of us can make some kind of sense of such tragedies.
Dave, as difficult as it is to be "the expert" on such a subject, we are lucky to have a person of your integrity, judgment and expertise to help the public come to terms with such tragedies.
Hi Dave:

I'm new to OS. Isn't it what life's all about? When you're closest to your dream is when a shadow falls to darken the moment.

I'm a long time subscriber to the New Yorker and I look forward to reading the Q & A. Congratulations on the book, I will read it!

Kalpana
Thanks, everyone.

The kind wishes here have been a lifeline for me.

I'm run pretty ragged today. I have to go make lunch! Soooooo hungry.
I am so proud of you I could burst. I hope you feel the same about yourself. The events in Germany, horrific as they are, should please not interfere with your own well-deserved joy at achieving a dream. You EARNED it. This post is more proof of your talent and compassion. Bravo. (Take care of your shoulder).
Hey now! The New Yorker. That’s some pretty cool press.

And jeeze – the connections that are made in life. So you’re a go-to-guy for school shootings. Wow. I’m glad to hear you’ve got some methods for protecting yourself. But then again, it’d be a nicer world if there was never a reason to call you for this kind of thing again.
Wow- what ups and downs. And book launches have their natural ups and downs- yours seem that much more. But how incredible to be in the New Yorker! In my dreams they have printed my poetry. Congrats!
This is a sad topic but you do well to help people understand the problem.
Dave, I think I know what you mean about the difficulty of keeping some distance between you and the victims of the murders and murderers you study. I've been working on death penalty cases for more than eight years now, and there are victims I will never ever forget, one child victim in particular. I'm glad I'm not the "go to girl" on death penalty issues (outside my circle of friends, that is). I can't make sense of murder any better than your average, law-abiding, person on the street. Each confounds me, rationally speaking.

Thank you for taking on the emotional burden of delving into school shootings. I know there is a cost there, and it is not cheap by any means.

Next book idea for you: Write about double rainbows.
Congratulations on this Dave. Tragedies will not end in this world, alas.

I have to say that I sneaked into the New Yorker through a blurb I wrote about a hotel for a guidebook. The hotel featured it in their New Yorker ad, and so I keep that page on my shelf.

You did it the real way.
It's an honor to be considered an expert about something but clearly in this case it is a double edged sword.

I went and read all of your pieces on Slate and was so impressed by them. I am keen to read your book. Wish I were closer to Seattle, but it's a bit of a journey from out here on the tip of the edge.
Thanks, everyone.

What did I do for support before OS.

Sui, that's got to be a hard life. My brother was a prosecutor for 25 years, finally gave it up to be a high school teacher. (He's just getting started on that.) A soul can only take so much.

I was really foolish for a long time in failing to see the need for limits. It was after Platte Canyon where I watched it play out for (three?) hours and followed it all on my blog every step, and then told my shrink I was a mess, and she was like, "No kidding. Does three straight hours not sound a little excessive to you? What did you think was going to happen?" Something like that.

I was like, "Hmmmmm. It never occurred to me to turn it off. That I needed to."

So maybe next time you will, she said. Just set some limits.

It seems obvious in retrospect. Now, as soon as one starts, that's one of the first things I think: How much of this am I allowed to go in for? I kind of watch myself over my own shoulder to see when I've absorbed too much, and I know which triggers get to me now (under no conditions am I allowed to stop for more than a second on any picture of survivors tightly hugging. That is burned into my memory, with these emotional hair triggers all around it, and it zaps me right back to the the breathless, hopeless, despairing place.)

mostly, i'm good. i can study the killers usually, without trouble. they can be like looking at a bug under a microscope. it's intellectual analysis. they don't get inside me.

(dylan did, but before the killings, when he was in pain. his pain gets in me, but not his anger.)

we're all susceptible to different things. a lot of people would have trouble getting that close to murderers, for me, it's the murderees.
Kudos! All I can say is "what Sally said!" :).
What bothers me is that whatever the tragedy, so little is known about the lives of those negatively affected.. what I mean is,

do they get help?
how much?
what kinds?

Basically (for those who could only look on in horror).. what actually exists in terms of resources for those who are affected by psychopathic incidents in America?

I remember reading about how a family was killed, two children kidnapped, one killed and the other rescued at a diner.. is she being taken care of? How?

Enquiring minds want to know.. at least that America has a place in helping their lives.. since they won't stop the guns and do better with the penal system. (..oh and close the border, I add...)
I live in a city, Montreal, where we've had three school shootings. Université de Montreal (89'), 14 dead. Concordia U (92'), 4 dead (one of them a close friend of my mother's) and Dawson College (06'), one dead, 20 injured. On the bright side our police are getting better. They were truly heroic and effective in preventing the last one from being worse.

On the dark side, we are the world capital of aftermath, and everytime I hear of another shooting, I feel that familiar horror. Congrats on the New Yorker, but I don't envy your work as massacre expert.
Dave,
I have a friend who is writing a book about an equally disturbing topic. Every day, she immerses herself in that ugliness, and then she goes home to her family and recoups the joy.
It's a tough road to walk--and I hope that you have friends to whom you can talk when it just gets to be too much. Congratulations on the book.
Wow. First, congratulations on NYer! That is a tremendous coup.

Second, I feel for you. The news about the German tragedy sickened me, but then I could go back to my routine. For you, it's more present. Take care of yourself, this is high-risk material for your heart.

Third, I am interested in your insights. You are writing important stuff, and should feel good about what your observations may be able to do in prevention in the future. I am putting your book on my Must Read list.

Thank you for being on OS and for allowing us to follow your experience as an author. It is a privilege to be in the company of gifted writers.
congrats on the NYer :) that's terrific.
take good care of yourself ~ you deal with so much sadness ...
congratulations on your book. it's really strange how the shooters become well for lack of a better term, heros. try and name one victim, you can't. it almost becomes a twisted contest to see who can kill the most. the other thing i think happens is bringing it to light could be just the nudge the next killer needs to push him over the edge. i say him, but for some strange reason i bet there's, some chick, somewhere, waiting to be the first. when i finish writing this i'll get back to digging that hole for my shelter.
I hadn't heard or read about the German shooting either. I guess America is focusing on Rush Limbaugh, Michael Steele and the Stewart/Cramer feud too much, sad.

Great interview and again, I look forward to reading the book.
Rated
Dave, thanks for a fascinating, multilayered post! Wow, talk about taking the bad with the good-- your chosen topic means you will always have to do that with media attention, I guess. (I don't doubt you'll write other books, but I suspect you will be the go-to guy on this thing even long after you do, given how well your Columbine book is shaping up to be received, which will cement you in the media's eyes as an "expert" in this tragic horror.)

You've fulfilled something that's on my life list, too -- being in the New Yorker. I can only imagine how thrilling that is. Sorry you didn't get a chance to savor it before tragedy hit.

thanks again for sharing your journey here even though you're so busy - it's fascinating!
Dave - congrats on the New Yorker piece. I really had no idea of your area of expertise when you commented on my post about high school reunions. Your reference to yourself as cultural anthropologist and to my possible vengeance has different connotations for me now. Wow, no wonder I felt a level of detachment in your comment. This has got to be such a mixed blessing for you, being an expert on the dark side of high school. I wish for you a new book deal on a joyful subject!
Congrats on the New Yorker thing. It's great! Sorry it's stirring up so much stuff for you. Next book: Everything You Wanted to Know About Puppies
Thanks, everyone.

Victoria: I think the biggest hurdle to the press answering your question is that most of the coverage comes in the first few days, before the answers you seek have happened yet. Journalists have to go back later to find out. I spend half my book on the victims/survivors. (The other half on the killers.)

Blue: Yes, the German shooter story was huge news for about two hours and then dropped fast. (I was monitoring the nets.) How sad. It only matters to us if it happened in America.

Thanks everybody about my emotional health. I wish I had NOT gone to "The Wrestler" as my Saturday night time off last night. Yikes, that is a brutal and sadisitic film. It's probably accurate, and good at what it's trying to do, but was not what I needed. (Especially after spending much of the week reviewing another book on a tragedy.)

I'll find some other light stuff, though. The gym really helps clear my head.

Angrymom, LOL. that's kind of what I want to do.

I was looking forward to doing a big, fun piece on the 50th anniversary of Barbi (seriously), but just no time.
Dave, it's just as well the Barbie piece didn't work out. I read on OS that she's . . . well, uh . . . *sniff* . . . I hate to be the one to tell you this, expecially NOW, but . . . Barbie is dead!!! 1_Irritated_Mother posted the sordid details recently!