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David Brin

David Brin
Location
San Diego, California, USA
Birthday
October 06
Bio
David Brin’s novels have been translated into more than twenty languages, including New York Times Best-sellers that won Hugo, Nebula and other awards. His 1989 ecological thriller, Earth, foreshadowed cyberwarfare the World Wide Web,global warming and Gulf Coast flooding. ........ A 1998 Kevin Costner film was loosely adapted from his Campbell prizewinner - The Postman. Kiln People portrays technology letting people be in two places at once. "Foundation's Triumph" brought a grand finale to Isaac Asimov's famed Foundation Universe. Brin's groundbreaking hardcover graphic novel "The Life Eaters" was an international sensation. .......... David Brin is also a noted scientist, futurist and speaker who appears frequently on television ("Life After People," "The Universe," "the Architechs"), discussing trends in the near and far future, with subjects as diverse as surveillance technology, astronomy, SETI, nanotechnology and national defense. His non-fiction book -- "The Transparent Society: Will Technology Make Us Choose Between Freedom and Privacy?" -- deals with issues of openness, security and liberty in the new wired-age. It won the 2000 Freedom of Speech Award of the American Library Association and a prize from the McGannon Foundation for public service in communications. .......... Main web site: http://www.davidbrin.com .......... Alternate blog: http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/ ........... Speaking/consulting: http://www.davidbrin.com/speaker.html

David Brin's Links

Salon.com
Editor’s Pick
JUNE 14, 2009 2:55PM

Yin vs Yang on Health Care: conservatives make a few points

Rate: 15 Flag

Lighting the political lamp...  Let’s start with evidence that something special is going on. Everybody, you must watch this. Get to know the guy.  And make your conservatives watch, too. 

Of course, if there are folks on the right who remain impervious to reality.  (As there are some on the left.)  Indeed, the more sensible and moderate and consually wise Obama seems, the more extreme the fantasies concocted by the crazies.  And the more imperative it becomes, for reasonable conservatives to choose the real world. 

Speaking of which...


=== Some Conservatives Really Are Openminded ===

My friend, John Mauldin, the brilliant economic analyst, appears to have joined PIMCO’s Bill Gross and other “conservative realists” in breaking away from the standard right-wing doctrine about taxes.  Not in all ways or on all issues. But enough to declare independence form Rupert Murdoch’s party line.

For example, they are much more concerned about trillion dollar deficits than about the purported investment-stifling effects of somewhat higher taxes on the upper class.  Not only are they resigned (and imply some contentment) at seeing the Bush Era’s biggest set of “largesse” breaks for the wealthy expire, next year, they hint that a modest increase might be the least-bad way to reduce both those deficits and inequities in society.  You haven’t seen the punditocracy comment on this trend very much, on TV.  But it is a sea change among the brightest, reality-oriented conservatives and may represent the front of real change in republican circles, at least among those who see reason and patriotism and pragmatism as higher virtues than dogmatism.

And now... partly in order to honor those rational conservatives, and meet them partway, here’s something sure to rile a number of you.  A remise on last time’s topic of health care.  Only from an alternative perspective.


=== A contrarian view of health care ===

In case any of you have come to the false conclusion that I am a reflexive liberal democrat -- simply because I oppose the hijacked monstrosity that the Republican Party has become, let me make clear that I retain plenty of ways that I can exercise contrary orneriness toward the American left. There are times when even the Frankenstein, undead monster than conservatism has become can startle you, by uttering cogent and reasonable “Goldwater-style” objections, instead of the shrill mania pouring from the Murdoch-Limbaugh-Fox nexus.  We should be ready, whenever this happens, to heap on positive reinforcement rewards!  The biggest reward of all?  To actually listen.

One example is where decent conservatives point out genuine drawbacks to the state-run, “universal single payer” health care systems so widely touted in liberal circles.  As one who lived for extended periods in both Britain and France, I have to tell you that their systems have much we can learn from.. and also some serious flaws.  Without any doubt, they are vastly more fair than ours, and do a far better job at both preventive care and ensuring healthy lives for all kids -- which (as I said last time) should be the core goal of any system.  

If we must make a zero-sum choice between Canadian and US health care, then by all means, let’s dump a horror story, in favor of dull, unimaginative and paternalistically meddlesome decency.  But I am always suspicious of zero-sum games. If we’re to improve, we should recognize what the current U.S. system does well.  

Let’s start by giving conservatives their say. Here’s a quote from Dennis Gartman's eponymous newsletter. "Canada is a wonderful place to have a nasty gash on one's forehead stitched, or to break one's nose in a game of pickup baseball; but have cancer, or need eye surgery, or want an MRI, and the business of medicine in Canada and/or the UK breaks down badly in favor of medical care here in the US. For example... and we wish to thank The Investor's Business Daily for the data noted here this morning...
           "... here in the US men and women survived cancer at an average of just a bit better than 65%. In England only 46% survive. In the US, 93% of those diagnosed with diabetes receive treatment within six months; in Canada only 43% do, and in the UK only 15% do! For those seniors needing a hip replacement and getting one within six months, 15% get it done in the UK; 43% get it done in Canada ... and in the US 90% do! For those waiting to see a medical specialist, 23% of those in the US (fail to) get in within four weeks, while 57% in Canada have not yet done so, and in the UK 60% are still waiting after four weeks.  ......  When it comes to proper medical equipment, in the US there are 71 MRI or CT scanners available per million people. In Canada there are but 18, and in the UK there are only 14! Ah, but the best figure of all is this: 11.7% of those 'seniors' in the US with 'low incomes' say they are in excellent health, which in and of itself sounds rather low ... rather disconcerting ... and an indictment of the system itself, doesn't it? But in Canada only 5.8% do!
            "Yessiree bob, ya' jus' gotta' luv that collectivized, socialized medical care! Let's all go break a collective arm and enjoy the benefits of socialized medicine in the Commonwealth! (Canada) ... but heaven help you if you've got something really, really wrong. If that's the case, you'll be running south to the border faster than you can reach a specialist anywhere in Canada; of that we are certain."


Oh, sure, you can spot the use of cherry-picked statistics, right away. (See below.).  And you’ll note how Gartman airily dismisses the general preventive care that should be the heart and soul of any national system, especially aimed at kids, waving it away as stitching a “gash in the forehead.”  Also, I’d like to see comparison of his figures broken down by age group!  And, frankly, I’d like to smack his smug, dismissive face.  (He is not one of the of those “reasonable conservatives” I was talking about.)

Nevertheless, putting aside his reactionary reflex and total lack of humility, after his side allowed the calamity of the Bush years, still, Gartman has a point. Because what people tend to ignore is that all health care systems practice rationing.  There is simply no way to avoid it, as we all would pay any price, for any chance of health.  Thus, there is very little market elasticity.  We’ll take our dying loved one to the best doctor, period, and screw the price and screw second best.  Capitalist principles are very dicey here.  So are paternalistic ones.

The chief difference between the US and the rest of the civilized world is that we let profit-driven insurance companies do the rationing, and they do it based solely on profit considerations and whatever they can get away with.  By exiling people who have health conditions, by eliminating the poor, by refusing service for the passive or meek or less influential or less-litigious.  On the other hand, those who can pay, and fiercely enforce their insurance contracts, can get their companies to cover vast and endless expenses for procedures aimed even at extending, futilely, the very last and most painful phases of life.  The phases that take up to a fourth of all medical expense, in the United States.

Europe etc are different.  There, socialist-oid state committees ration procedures, based on criteria that seem to make sense both to those committees and to generally accepted social consensus.  While it seems both logical and laudable that they prioritize children and young adults and illnesses that can likely be cured -- a proper role for paternalistic single-payer systems -- it still seems heartless and callous that they pay for this by telling old people, or those with chronic or “hopeless” conditions that little will be spent on them.  Indeed, this is why many of the elderly rich, all over the world, fly to America for treatment.  

What is seldom mentioned is an added drawback to that system.  All the money that America spends (or grotesquely overspends) on unpleasantly difficult conditions - those with a poor prognosis - often results in improved science, treatment and success! In other words, the American system serves as the world’s medical R&D test bed.  This is why MRI machines were available here - for those who could pay out the nose - long before state commissions would buy them overseas.  (And boy, was I glad to get home and use one, back in 1992, even though it cost me $1,000!  Back in Europe, where I had lived, there simply weren’t any available.  At all.)

Is the rightwing wrong about Health Care?  Sure they are, as they have made a habit of being wrong about just about everything, ever since their movement and party drank Rupert Murdoch’s Koolaid and slid into mania, years ago.  The present US Health Care System is a travesty and outrage, period.  Nevertheless, the insistence of the Left upon simply adopting what they see overseas, without discussing the drawbacks, is both lazy and doctrinaire.  It is not worthy of a nation of innovators.

=== Start Down the Road Incrementally ===

Hence, let me return to something I said  before. We could derive the topmost benefit of European style health care if we start by simply providing health care to all kids!  Now, immediately.  Without any “insurance” rigmarole.   Take care of children.  Period. Right away.  Just do it!

One method that would take a one page piece of legislation?  Simply take Medicare and extend it to the other end of the spectrum, the other demographic group that is both helpless and deserving, by simple definition.  Or else, use the kids to experiment with single-payer.  Either way, the political opposition would be in a tough spot putting up much resistance!  Americans are inherently more socialistic when it comes to children than we feel toward adults (who, we think, almost instinctively, should stand on their own two feet.)  Moreover, it lets us act upon prevention and lifelong health investment in youth, by far the best use of medical care dollars.

Seriously, why isn’t this a no-brainer?  A win-win that would let Obama achieve wonders at a stroke, while keeping both cost and complexity down and achieving the greatest bang for the buck.  Poor parents would be relieved of their greatest fear and then be able to bargain better for their own, narrower coverage.  Can anyone explain why this isn’t even mentioned?

And then, with our future safeguarded and the very worst injustice solved, we can gather the best and most sensible people from all sides to compare apples, oranges, grapes and every possible plan for dealing with adult working Americans.


=== ADDENDA ===

“The Obama administration is warning lawmakers that the trust fund that pays for highway construction will go broke in August unless Congress approves an infusion of as much as $7 billion...  Sen. George Voinovich, R-Ohio, said it's clear that Congress must raise the federal gas tax, which is now 18.4 cents per gallon.”

Naturally, I agree with Voinovich.  Our gas taxes are among the lowest on the planet and have encouraged wastrel attitudes for two generations.  Still, I’d like to add one suggestion.  While the gas tax is being raised, also transform it from a flat rate to a PERCENTAGE of the cost at the pump.   That way, it can automatically be indexed to rise when consumption does, and some of that rise can be dedicated to filling strategic reserves and a rainy day fund, to kick in when hard times next return.

*  One of you said:

     “I sincerely hope that those who would mock Dr. Brin’s "10,000 McVeighs" prediction are paying some attention.The murder of Officer Johns at the Holocaust Museum, the murder of Dr. Tiller, the murder of five chilean students in Miramar Beach Florida by a man obsessed with "Illegals" , and now the murder of a nine year old girl and her father by the Minutemen.”   

 Alas. Folks, you ain’t seen nothing, yet.

And finally, oooog.  See why libertarianism is often its own worst enemy. What a shame.

 

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Listening to the mostly nonsensical reasons put out in the media by the current political opposition one can't help wondering what could be behind their ideology? Sure they don't believe in their own argument.

Although many of their critics say they just don't understand, it seems hard to accept. No one is stupid.

Others maintain that it must be the money they are paid for representing this or that influential interest group.

Again, possibly true, but is that it? That otherwise decent-looking people would sell out for a few percentage points of the damage they may cause?

There must be some worthier truth in the background, that they are not willing to share. What is the secret?

Has anybody attempted to propose a thoughtful and comprehensive analysis?
I don't exactly agree with your recommendation on just extending Medicare but I appreciate that you are willing to see that conservatives can validly advocate for different ideas.

I did a post just today (well, a pseudo repost) attempting to find a compromise between my free market, conservative views and the desire by liberals for unversal healthcare.

You might be interested.

Healthcare Debate 2: Is Compromise Possible?
You should read McGarrett. There is more common grounbd actually. Germany and Japan have good parts too.
great post! thank you for trying to wrangle a productive conversation out of the stupid swamp.
How nice it is to see that at least one American is growing/has grown up enough to realize that it is possible, desiriable and a "MUST DO" for folks of good will, on both sides or the political spectrum to engage in dialogue if America is to pull out of her many difficulties (in addition to Health Care issues).

Now if there were only some way to make this essay required reading for every adult in the US!


Rated (and Top Ranked)
Single-payer and public option systems, in various forms, work well in many, many countries around the world---and these countries have better health outcomes than the US. See the table comparing the US with other countries here (you may be surprised): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Sweden

I think the US public needs to know that:
Single-payer healthcare is NOT government-run healthcare.
Single-payer healthcare is NOT socialized medicine.

Please take a look at the article “Health Reform for Beginners: The Difference Between Socialized Medicine, Single-Payer Health Care, and What We'll Be Getting” http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/06/health_reform_for_beginners_th_1.html

Quoted from the article:

“Socialized medicine is a system in which the government owns the means of providing medicine. Britain is an example of socialized system, as, in America, is the Veterans Health Administration.

“In a socialized system, the government employs the doctors and nurses, builds and owns the hospitals, and bargains for and purchases the technology. I have literally never heard a proposal for converting America to a socialized system of medicine. And I know a lot of liberals.

“SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH CARE IS NOT SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. [my caps]. It's a system in which one institution purchases all, or in reality, most, of the care. But the payer does not own the doctors or the hospitals or the nurses or the MRI scanners. Medicare is an example of a mostly single-payer system, as is FRANCE. Both of these systems have private insurers to choose from, but the government is the dominant purchaser. . . . The term refers to market share, not federal control.”
So, when we talk about a single-payer system, we don’t mean socialized or government-run healthcare; nor do we mean the Canadian system.

I think we should look carefully at the healthcare systems in place in Taiwan and the Netherlands, Norway and other countries.
A new study shows that SINGLE-PAYER HEALTHCARE REFORM WOULD BE A MAJOR STIMULUS FOR THE US ECONOMY and would provide:

** 2.6 Million New Jobs,
** $317 Billion in Business Revenue,
** $100 Billion in Wages, and
** $44 Billion New Tax Revenues

The press release is here: http://www.calnurses.org/media-center/press-releases/2009/january/nurses-to-congress-expanding-medicare-could-reverse-job-losses-and-repair-our-broken-healthcare-system-and-safety-net.html

Here’s the study: http://www.calnurses.org/research/pdfs/ihsp_sp_economic_study_2009.pdf

YouTube clip (5 minutes) about how to pay for healthcare reform “HR676 - The Single Payer Solution, Part 4 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxi7DnCH3zk It’s about public financing and private delivery.

Additional information and comments: http://www.care2.com/news/member/434996229/1032921

It’s clear that single-payer is the solution, not only in terms of providing quality care for all, but also economically!
I made a post several months ago about the health care systems in Canada and how it works, from a user's point of view. I think it does a good job of showing how such a system can be decentralized in a federation (like Canada and the US are) and how it doesn't involve the government taking over and directly running hospitals and employing family doctors. It doesn't involve some "government bureaucrat" (or anyone, other than you, your family, and your doctors) deciding what medical care you are personally allowed to have covered.

Canada does not have a "nationalized" health care system
I do not agree with your proposals other than to say we don't need MORE GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE. Another thing....Obama didn't inherit Bush's deficit....we inherited FDR's deficit and social entitlements and even today we continue to fund them even though they are obsolete.
We should drill for more oil and not raise taxes on gas, income or services. We should ease our dependence on foreign oil by drilling more wells, building more nuclear plants and then once we are free and the economy is again robust we will have the capital and ingenuity to develop alternative forms better suited than oil to take America in to the future. Why is it that the left and so many RINO Republicans can't grasp the lower taxes thing? If I have so many dollars to spend and you keep taxing me...I have to make it up somewhere because unlike the Government I can't print my own money....and when you get down to it, what both Bush and Obama did and are doing....is unconstitutional.
Silly people are sillier than silly.

* 95% of the current US national debt was created under Reagan, Bush and Bhush. That is NINETY FIVE PERCENT... and yet these dunces still howl at FDR.

* There are almost NO litmus tests or measures of national health under which we did not grow stronger, during the 1990s, and weaker under GW Bush. That is a blatant, huge, inarguable FACT. We have been damaged, profoundly and severely. And our friend TS has been an apologist/enabler for the monsters who have half ruined us.

MIND YOU I am not a classic liberal, or even a democrat. The one political party that ever invited me to keynote their convention was the Libertarians! So don't try that "Big Government" relex-howl on me!

But I can see events and put two and two together. And the fact is that conservatism in America has been hijacked by a bunch of Saudi Princes and an Australian media tycoon. They called ALL the shots, from 2001 to 2008. ANd let me repeat the fact -- we have been crippled by every single possible measurte of national strength.

(Example? When B Clinton left office, ALL of our brigagdes were rated "fully combat ready." When Bush left office, how many were thus rated? Zero.

No, I side with liberals not because they are always right... they aren't! But instead for one reason. They can still argue as Americans. While the American right has drunk so much koolaid they are like a pack of zombies, shuffling around after the monsters who have hijacked theirt party... moaning "Yessss Master!"
You can address a lot of this on the margins. Add portability, add catastrophic, and invest more in child immunizations, and you will have over 50% of the problem solved with little disruption.

It would seem like now is a perfect time for some bipartisanship. THe nation has a case of the yips over deficits. No nationalized health initiative has ever come in even close to budget. In Massachusetts where Mitt Romney put some of the best and brightest economic minds onto our state wide system, the estimates were off by orders of magnitude. Same for medicaid when it was enacted and same for the prescription drug benefit.

We can't afford to do that and we do have to do rationing as suggested. Oregon's plan has that, or did ten or so years ago. I am uncertain as to how well it has worked.

I do have to bristle at the shot across the bow of the private insurers. Understand HMOs were spawned to fill a market driven need. Before HMOs were basic indemnity plans. You picked who you want, and the tab was covered. No need to worry about cost what so ever.

So costs rose. The market recoiled, and the HMO was spawned with cheaper premiums, but with the insurer overseeing the procedures with an eye towards cost. That's filling a market need.

Furthermore. Government dictates what it pays. If hospitals lose money based on government reimbursements, then they make it up by raising the private side higher. That little shell game of remitting below cost is a convenient way to whipsaw the industry while also sticking a hidden tax bill onto the insurance payers through the higher premiums.

If we would do more end-of-life rationing and the encouragement of hospice care and the like that comes at far less cost, we would pick up huge savings that could go, as the author suggests, to child immunizations.

There are systemic inequities in the healthcare market. It is inevitable with such a heavy government role and with such a highly emotionally charged purchase decision. I got a spot on my lung, I don't give a shit what it costs. I want it. I understand that.

Start paying for that collectively through taxation, however, and the people are going to have a right to question that.

Could get ugly.
Excuse me but Obama just quadrupled the country's deficit and while spending did increase and has increased under every President since Washington a lot of it has been perpetuated from the antiquated polices set forth under FDR. You have to be a liberal because you harbor such hostility towards anyone who dares disagree with you. I personally find your arguments amusing. Meanwhile I'm sure that China will sit idly by as we extend universal health care to all of our citizens while we monetize the debt and printing more money. Something we have scolded them on.
Thanks for some solid thinking, but, there is a tone to ALL Republican chatter on Health Care that is simply unadulterated evil. It is painfully obvious that anyone against reform already has acceptable health insurance. Are you telling me the uninsured (approaching 50 million) are ON THE SIDE of conservatives on this?

You're right about the kids, but lets start with everybody! Not having Universal care is wrong, morally and economically. Anyone who cares to look can see how Medicine is moving fast before our eyes, more patients, more doctors, more research, more healthy people ... is the ONLY thing that could come out of this, and of course bringing taxes back to previous levels and the economic activity of it all will actually not produce some future catastrophe, unless living longer healthier and pain free lives qualifies.

AUWE
Am I not remembering correctly, or did Obama at least campaign on providing universal health care for children before trying to cover everyone else? Is he not pushing that anymore? I seem to remember this coming up in the domestic policy debate with McCain. But then, that was before Peter Orszag started strongly advocating for drastic waste reduction - which is essential, as most people seem to realize and as this post notes, but might this be why we're hearing less about starting UHC for all children? Does the Obama health team now think it would be too expensive? I agree, David - it's unfortunate that this "pledge" seems to have faded away in favor of the public plan "option" alongside private plans, though it would be nice to have both the UHC for kids and the public-private choice for parents, as I think you're driving at.

Also, if you missed Atul Gawande's article in the New Yorker about the histories of health care in the UK, France, Scandinavia, and the US, read it for an excellent overview of how the respective systems arose from historical and social change unique to each country, and why the US can't hope to ever have European-style socialized medicine, but must work with what it has.
I do not think that you can equate the number of CT scanners or MRIs to the quality of care. One-third of the scans are unnecessary, Columbia researchers contend and conclude that so many scans are being done that cancer rates may increase from this factor alone (http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/healthday/071128/rise-in-ct-scans-poses-cancer-risk.htm0. You may be right about cancer survival but countries do learn for other experiences and is not a characteristic of the health care system.
Interesting stuff here, both in the narrative and in the comments. I'm almost done (I promise) with my health care reform post "The U.S. health care policy morass." A couple of your observations will fit nicely with the stuff I'm about to discuss in detail (the uneven distribution of health care expenditures). I may have to quote and link you in.
Anyone who blames Obama for our current mess... or the need to spend vast stimulus to get out of it, is the sheerest hypocrite. These are precisely the methodologies tat were recommended and pushed by the GOP establishment when Bush was in power... with one difference. Under Obama, the money is flowing transparently, in the open, and not under the table to cronies. (Much.)

The right-lunacracy has near-infinite rationalizations, so I'll get back down to basics. And all you moderates (I have little truck with genuine leftists) keep repeating the following, to all your conservative friends, until their fever breaks.

We do NOT want them to abandon basic Gopldwater-style, small government, old-fashioned conservative principles! Those are needed parts of the conversation. But there will BE no conversation while they - and their movement - continue to be psychotic.

Ask them: "Name even ONE measure of national health or strength that unambiguously improved under conservative stewardship of our nation. In fact, name one that did not decline."

They cannot, since nearly every measure of national health PLUMMETED under neocon mad-misrule. And I am talking about unambiguous things like economic, fiscal health, or military readiness, or number of allies, or american science, or the basic world popularity that underpins our ability to lead. Or small business startups and entrepreneurship, which ALWAYS do better under democrats...

...and yes, that is ALWAYS. In contrast, the GOP favors monopolies.

Heck, TS... can you tell me which party does better at guarding the borders and lowering illegal immigration? Hm? Go ahead and answer. Now, if you answered by reflex, here's mine. Ignoramus.

Facts like these ought to give a rational person pause. They are why a libertarian like me holds his nose and allies himself with the democrats, whole hog. I do it in hope that if the GOP is punished badly enough, SOMEDAY guys like TS will wake up, and swear off the Koolaid, and start reasoning with us again...

after telling Limbaugh and Rupert Murdoch and the princes to go to blazes.

Well, one can dream.
Tax as a percentage of the price at the pump adds a multiplier effect to increases in gas prices. In the short term, people have limited ability to reduce their gas consumption. They don't exchange their car for a more fuel efficient one immediately, they may not be able to commute on public transport. In the short term, gas price increases are painful.

In Britain, the tax (duty, tax, road user fees) on gas made for about 80% of the cost of a liter (gallon, if you will). That's a huge multiplier on the price of gas. If the price of a gallon rises by 20 cents, add an 80% increase in tax and you get a 36 cent increase at the pump. Start multiplying that by the average tank of gas, and you get a lot of pain.

I agree that US gas taxes should be higher, but given that the only reason oil prices have gone down is that consumption is down due to a global recession that everyone one hopes will be limited, I think gas tax as a percentage of the price of a gallon is asking for problems in the future.
You say Because what people tend to ignore is that all health care systems practice rationing. . And you could have said "Because what people tend to ignore is that all health care systems are socialistic. That is, the principle of socialism, or even communism, applied to health care is that the the cost of health care for the individual is paid by the group. It has to be that way because of the price of health care in the US, and it is. The only question is 'what group?'. In the universal systems it is the citizenry, in the US, there are many groups, each being the holders of insurance policies from a particular company. But, the principle is the same, the individuals' costs of health care shared by the group.

And, why not have both types of health care. Universal paid for by the government/citizenry, and optional private plans. This seems to be the direction of Obama's plan, and it has the possibility of incorporating the best (or worst?) of both systems.

Also, in Ca. there is, for all practical purposes, universal health care for pregnant mothers and children, and it is smooth as glass, I was lucky enough to find out about it before paying my 5K deductible. It covers EVERYTHING with zero hassle if you qualify, i.e., have low income. In Ca., with one one hr. complication, the cost of a new baby - 50K ! The program - MediCal. Of course, Ca. is going bankrupt, but the system has been working for a while.
I can't help but question the "statistics" that conservatives use when it comes to single payer systems. Perhaps some people have to wait for care, but I doubt seriously that the percentage of people who have to wait are that long. First of all for most diabetics, "treatment" involves sitting down with a doctor and nutritionist in the beginning. Most diabetics don't immediatel get put on medication. (My husband is a diabetic and that's how it was for him.) I have grown to distrust the "statistics" of all "true believers" no matter which side they are on. Wealthy people, no matter where they are, will go where they want to go for treatment. Conservatives point out the many people from the Middle East, for instance, who come to the USA for treatment. Let's face it. There's no equivalent to the Mayo Clinic in these places. Not yet anyway. In the meantime, a lot of people in this country can't get decent treatment and don't have the option of taking a trip to the Mayo Clinic. Their insurance, if they have it, won't cover it. No insurance? Oh, well. I'm not one who wants a single payer only plan. I DO believe, however, that if the Government offers a "government insurance" program, businesses will flock to it. GM Management said as much a few years ago. My husband and I have insurance through his former job: he is a retired civil servant. Oh, wait, we have "Government Insurance" too. It is Blue Cross/Blue Shield and has worked well for us over the years. As for the senators and congressmen who don't want "government insurance," they have it. What's good enough for our leaders should be good enough for the general population.
David, why must you always stoop to the level of name calling? Is it you are so insecure in your own intellect that you must insult others who disagree? "Ignoramus", I believe you called me after you defined me as a Republican. I am a Constitutional Conservative. If I may be allowed to answer for myself as to your question on who provides the best border security....the answer is...." Recession". No money, no Honey...they go home. Seriously, both parties are pathetically pandering to the Hispanic vote and many of my Hispanic friends tell me they are fed up with it. They don't like their jobs, their land, their money being siphoned off to support people who come here illegally. Now as to your next point. I'm not blaming Obama...I simply pointed out that he increased our debt this year by four times that of Bush. Hell Bush was bad enough, Obama is worse. Yawn....you bore me.
It's true that in America we spend more on high-tech medicine. And so what? Unless you believe that spending money on high-tech medicine is an end in itself, that proves nothing unless you can link the increased spending to better outcomes. We have gone so preposterously beyond the point of diminishing returns that the burden of proof ought to be on anyone who thinks that more spending will result in improved patient outcomes.

A study published in the March 9 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine found that patients with terminal cancer who did not have end-of-life discussions with their physicians experienced more invasiave medical treatments, suffered more depressions, and had a porrer quality of death than those who had such discussions. And here's the punchline:

THEY DIDN'T EVEN LIVE ANY LONGER!

Actually, they died a little bit sooner, even though as a group, they were not as sick to begin with a those who had end-of-life discussions with their physicians.

Here's the study:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/169/5/480

By the way, those five-year survival rates for cancer tell us NOTHING about whether anyone is living any longer due to medical treatment. The more you screen for cancer, the higher the five-year survival rate will become, for two reasons:

1) People die at the same time, but get diagnosed earlier;

2) People are diagnosed with "cancers" that are so slow-growing they never would have bothered them until they died of some unrelated cause.

The only statistic that tells you anything is the death rate. In Britain a few years ago, it was revealed that the five-year survival rate for prostate cancer was 40%, whereas in the USA it was 90%> There was a great uproar, until it was pointed out that the death rate for prostate cancer is EXACTLY THE SAME in both countries. In other words, in the USA, there are lots of men being diagnosed and in some cases treated for prostate cancer which never would have bothered them as long as they lived. That's hardly a point in favor of our system.

I consider it self-evident that most of us are born with everything we need to have a powerful and healthy body into our seventies, with minimal help from the medical profession. And after eighty, there will be multiple competing causes for your death, and you won't be able to expect much more from the medical profession that to keep you comfortable.

I am willing to take responsibility for my health and to accept my mortality. I just don't want to be driven into bankruptcy if, say, I get into a traffic accident and am rushed to the hospital unconscious and my insurer refuses to pay because the hospital was not on their preferred provider list. And yes, that does happen.

We're already paying more in taxes per capita for health care than Canadians do. We're paying enough in taxes to indemnify every man, woman, and child in the United States at the same level of care Canadians get. That would be plenty good for me. If elderly people who can't accept their own mortality want to spend a lifetime's accumulated wealth on expensive and high-tech treatments in the vain hope of living longer, that's their business.

Thanks for a thought-provoking post. Also see my posts, "Should doctors kill? Part 3" and "Time to pull the plug on employer-based health insurance."
As a fiscal conservative, it has always made sense to me financially to ensure people are healthy - this is a win-win for the economy and for communities. What has never ever made sense to me is for-profit health insurance; how on earth does that serve the public good?
Thanks Narcissus, and I agree, we should have both. But HOW? The present Obama approach pandering to the insurance companies -- is a mutant-hybrid that is sure to combine thw worst of both worlds. (And I say this as one who admires him... so far.)

My suggestion : simply give totally socialistic health care to all kids does not solve all problems. But it does the top thing, invests in our future, instantly. And that much we can afford, even now.

We can then gain experience with single payer and work out kinks while arguing in good faith about what mix to use with adults.

Oh, get bent, TS. You know very well that the "Ignoramus" was aimed conditionally, on an assumption (that you proved true) that you would not face the glaring fact that I suggested you look at. Squarely. The DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE GOP vs Democrat approaches to border management.

Fact: Republican presidents immediately, upon entering office, cripple the Border Patrol. W cut its patrolling funding in HALF upon becoming president (just before 9/11).

In contrast, Democratic presidents always, and immediately, beef up the BP. Both Clinton and Obama nearly doubled patrols. There are simple explanations for this, that open minds might clearly see. But not Fox/Limbaugh addicts.

TS, you are not an ignoramus because you are conservative, or because you did not know about this diametrically opposite border patrol behavior by the parties.

You are an ignoramuns because -- like Bush -- you have no curiosity. This glaring fact - of how dems and gops differ at the border ought to rouse curiosity and interest! Instead, you toss out nostrums, like "pandering to hispanics."

In fact, your reaction is consistent. Three times I have asked you to name one measure of national health that wasn't devastated by neocon misrule... a record so perfect that it cannot have come from mere moronic-corrupt-dogmatic incompetence. SO perfect that it ought to get guys like you more openminded about questioning assumptions.

Military readiness, small business startups, entrepreneurship, international leadership, fiscal responsibility.... these are all things conservatives should care about and these things ALWAYS do better under dems! That is always always always always always always always always always.

Fact, the democrats prove to be better "real conservatives" than republicans, who are NOT conservative at all. They are lapdogs of oligarchs like Rupert Murdoch.

Note, I am not even talking to TS anymore. But to the rest of you. When arguing with conservatives, argue in conservative terms! Talk about military readiness. About small business startups. Entrepreneurship. Fiscal and economic management. Talk about how their misrule has devastated the country they are supposed to love, how every theory proved wrong.

It isn't that Conservatism ITSELF lacks meaningful values. (Remember, I consider myself a libertarian.) It is that the movement was hijacked by our new feudal lords. And it can only be save from within.

SOME conservatives are waking up to this fact.Like Sueinaz. But a majority, like TS, have their heads buried in the sand. Ostriches.
David, just because you know a lot of words doesn't mean you have to use them all in each post ...... I can sum up all your posts with one word "boring"

Liberals don't argue or discuss anything they just name call.
David, again with your defining who or what I am...you don't know a thing about me...for all you know I may be the biggest lib in the country....left of even Obama. FYI, I never agreed with any of either of the Bush's spending habits. I did like Clinton...as he was preoccupied with getting his penis straightened an therein left the country pretty much ignored....wherein we did just fine. Bush had to go screw up Iraq to clean up his dad's name and should have concentrated on Osama...not Saddam. Now we have Obama trying to stand the country on its head with a new agenda everyday. I have no fear that any of it will amount to a hill of beans...because even liberals are sick of hearing all of his stuttering between teleprompters....ah for the good ol' days when all politicians did was have sex with their interns.
Big words? On OS? From a well known and published author?

How FUCKING shocking.

Any anti-intellectuals here are truly in the wrong place.

T.S.- you can describe yourself anyway you want, but observation quickly tells us you, like all conservativerepukes, already got yours and DONT GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT OTHERS.

That is the type of US=Rome hubris that causes all the trouble. Lets be crystal clear, conservativism, the idea that all should bootstrap themselves regardless of resources or circumstance, is a total FUCKING joke and could only have been thunk up by, again, some silver spoon spoiled little shit.

You guys suck
Hey Surfer Dude from Oahu...you again are wrong. I don't have any insurance and I have MS, Cancer and Nerve Damage from an accidental poisoning...I am a Vietnam Vet, former surfer, and as to your claim I have mine....I made it and had it stolen from me...so I had it and I lost it but unlike you.....I don't want a hand out or entitlement from our government....I choose to work for mine...even sick, dying and over sixty....so put that in you bong and hit.
T.S.,

I too have very severe nerve damage, from an accident at Sunset. I've been getting it treated for years under several medical plans, all paid for by me personally (I now pay $500 per month) and, despite this, have been turned down for advanced and experimental treatments (new lasers) only given a maximum of other treatments that never finished the healing, and I could go on. There's been times when it hurt so much the pain just rattled my whole being.

I intend to heal this somehow and closely follow the only two things that look promising- the cold lasers and actual replacement. I hope one or more of these fixes us both before we go ... wouldn't wish this on anyone, especially a poor person or an uneducated one without the skills you and I have developed.

Thats what its about- TAKING CARE OF EVERYONE!
Guys! Guys! Settle down.

If TS claims that I've been shooting at a strawman, then let's meet halfway. I will apologize for strawmanning him as a typical neocon....

... if he'll admit that a lot of his earlier remarks were the kind that seem to come straight out of Faux-Limbaugh HQ, at the lackey-dog response to any whim of Rupert Murdoch. Hence our leaping to conclusions may not have been mature...

...but it was understandable.

Look, TS, even if you were not part of the madness, it really is time for you to wake up a bit. The dems and gops are NOT the same. Dems may be scatterbrained and too beholden to minorities and often too-quick to call upon the state -- but they are sincere and they want the US to function. And their track record at governing is actually quite good.

The neocons - in stark and diametric contrast - led our nation down paths of almost uniform destruction that were almost indistinguishable from treason. When faced with a fact so stark and huge, one is behooved to drop all this "liberal/conservative" stuff and choose, instead, on the basis of whether we can hope for sincerity from one side, some honesty, some REAL patriotism (not faux totem waving)... and a little brains.
"The dems and gops are NOT the same." Indeed Mr. Brin, you are soooooo correct. But, memory lane says we must remember what our LIBERTARIAN friends did to the world, believing Ralph Nader when he told them the exact opposite, that Al Gore and George W. Bush were cut from the same cloth. Thanks, Ralph. Insight. And thanks, Libertarians, your lack of ability to read a situation screwed the country and the whole world. I wonder how many Iraqi widows think Bush and Gore are just another set of twins?

Libertarians, like Republicans, are completely full of shit and their whole point of view is total fantasy. The Dems, while far from perfect are the only way out of this mess.

AUWE
might surprise you how much I agree. Today's libertarians -- 95% of them -- are too narrowminded, indignant, ungrateful and historically-ignorant to deserve the place on the political/philosophical landscape they have claimed. Their inability to recognize a basic truth from human history -- that oligarchs ruined more free markets than socialism ever did -- is a travesty of blinkered narrowmindedness.

So? Just because most of the adherents to a movement are stupid, that does not make it valueless. In the end, both the libertarians AND Karl Marx will be proved right, when the state withers away... after we all grow up and raise brilliant, super-capable children.

Problem is, those 95% libbie dingbats thing we can get to that era by eliminating govt NOW! They are loons. Govt is the one thing preventing the oligarchs from returning us to feudalism, Govt is needed to GET to the point where all children are raised brilliant and super-capable.

Hence, dig it, I share the dream... and I share the suspicion that govt CAN go sour, very easily. But I am not ungrateful to Franklin Roosevelt, who served an important role along our path to the future. And there I part company with almost every puerile "libertarian" who ever lived.

And still, I proudly wear the name. Just as I proudly ally myself with democrats, for now. Because the real enemy is plain as the nose on your face.
According to the CDC, “In 2006, 14.8 percent of Americans, or 43.6 million, were currently without health insurance… Among working-age Adults (those ages 18-64), 19.8% (36.5 million) did not have health insurance in 2006… Approximately 9.3% (6.8 million) of children under the age of 18 did not have health insurance in 2006” It should also be noted that people of retirement age are not included in these stats because they qualify for Medicare. (http://www.cdc.gov/Features/Uninsured/)

That is a huge number of people that are uninsured; now let’s break this down a little further: (The stats are coming from: http://covertheuninsured.org/content/quick-facts-uninsured which is a liberal leaning site dedicated to raising awareness of the so called “Health Care Crisis”)

-Of the working adult 50% (18.25 Million) of the uninsured are between the ages of 18-34, this age bracket is traditionally healthy and would not require the same health coverage as the older population (though because of current regulations they are not able to simply buy catastrophic insurance, they must buy a package that covers many things that they do not need)

-Of the overall uninsured 35.7% (15.5 million) are of Hispanic background (the site does not break this demographic down to indicate a percentage of citizens vs. illegal’s). But a large percentage of the uninsured Hispanic population does not even hold citizenship in our country.

- Of the working adult uninsured 41.3% (15.1 million) never completed high school. I believe that this statistic shows that the choices that one makes leads to consequences. I do not believe that it should be the tax payers’ duty to correct the consequences of poor decisions made by individuals (Bank bailouts, ect).

- Of the overall uninsured 20.2 % (8.8 million) have a household income greater than $50,000/yr. This portion of the population can afford coverage but simply chooses to forgo insurance. This is somewhat of a gamble that the individuals have made. How is it the tax payers responsibility to cover someone who takes this gamble? If I decide to go to the casino and loose money will the tax payer backup that gamble?

All I am saying is that this crisis is manufactured. The best motivator for change in an organization is crisis. If management wishes to promote change in the absence of a crisis then one (or the appearance of crisis) should be created.

There are things that could be done outside of nationalizing health care that would make insurance more affordable.
-Repeal the ban on interstate insurance policies: If I can find a cheaper plan in another state let me buy that one, the way it is currently set up discourages competition.

-Don’t require an insurance to cover multiple issues that are not relevant to the insured, this simply drives up costs. If I as a healthy 35 year old decide that the only coverage I need is catastrophe coverage with a high deductable, then I should be able to buy that. I don’t need coverage for breast cancer, or invetro-fertilization.

-There are also some steps that could be taken in the tax code to encourage more people to be covered to include:

-Moving the tax deduction from the employer to the employee. The way it is currently set up allows for the employer to deduct costs associated with employee health care, but does not allow the employee to deduct health care expenses. If the deduction was transferred to the employee this would allow the employer to increase a salary (currently to the salary of an employee is limited because of additional costs to the employer ie. Health care, employment taxes ect…). Example: If an employer currently spends $6,000/yr on health coverage for you and the government takes the steps noted above, your salary could increase by $6,000 allowing you to choose the insurance plan that best fits your needs. It may cost you the whole $6,000 or, as in my case, it may cost dramatically less.
Keep in mind that there will always be people who CHOOSE to go uncovered. This is part of economics, we all learned about opportunity costs. It is a sad fact that some people out there would rather have that new TV or a set of 22 inch spinner rims than insure their family.
I just love to read the posts from these brain dead Liberals. Talk about drinking the Kool-Aid.. It just solidifies the fact that "Liberalism is a mental disorder!" I especially like the one that talks about how the democrats are the best at keeping out illegal immigrants. OMG I can't wait until obama gives the 30 million illegal immigrants amnesty. He will do it simply because it will give him 30 million more idiots to vote for him. Because we surely know that they wont pay taxes under any of his policies. lol OMG Shear ignorance in this country is amazing. I could list about 30 things Obama has lied about since day one of him being in office. I am so sick of all the politicians constantly lying. How is throwing more money at a problem that was caused because of out of the control spending in the first place, a solution? It's like throwing gasoline on a camp fire and telling everyone its water and then acting surprised when it turns into a forest fire. Spreading the wealth is not the answer. Obama is a socialist and if you dont see this by now, you have no chance of ever seeing reality!!

All politicians seem to be born liars. Do people not have morals and/or values these days? We need to get rid of the Dems and the Repubs and start this country over.. Who is with me?
omg, how do you keep yourself rational in the face of geniuses like ts and timmy smith?

i think you made him regress with the horrible power of your mind.
In some ways, I like how the comments twist and turn down different pathways, in others, I find it annoying because I like to drill down to find out why someone believes a certain way on a certain topic.

For example, TS may have something to add to the discussion about how to pay for and provide health care, if he could get over is infatuation with FDR and others could be done with their need to show their "true liberal colors" by insulting the perceived neo-con. (The motivation is, "See? I'm part of the crowd. Look at how I treat those outsiders. Look at me! Look at me! I'm part of the in-group.")

As David Brin points out in his original post, the Goldwater-style conservatives have some important insights into how we can transform our broken medical care systems (not "health care," which is part of why they're broken) using American bootstrapping ingenuity.

Can't happen if people are more focussed on all the ways the other folks have hurt them and made them feel bad and want to "get even" rather than move forward.

That, more than anything else, is the legacy of the Fox-News-influenced side of conservatism. The irony of "rugged individualism" conservatives blaming the government, immigrants, liberals, pretty much everyone else, for their troubles should not be lost (nor should the irony of how quickly most "we're all in this together" liberals are to classify conservatives as evil "them," btw.)

I was more than ready for the changes Obama alluded to in his campaign. I am learning from his behavior that change is very difficult to implement. The only reason Obama looks "left" is because the country has moved so very far to the "right."

So, what's to do? Bring in more discussion. Study the issues so that your comments actually add to progress, rather than bog things down. Find out what people really want, and keep asking questions so that you understand before you dismiss. Ignore pointless name-calling, nose-rubbing and grandstanding. Recognize that the only tried-and-true way of building for future success is when free-thinking individuals choose to work together.

Here's an experiment a person could perform. For one day, even for the length of reading the comments of one blog post, imagine that "the other" really has good intentions, really wants things to go well for themselves and everyone else. Interact with "them" as if you want to understand what they are trying to say and why they have taken the stand they have right now. I know from personal experience that you will learn something beneficial and will improve your outlook as a human being.
Thought provoking. I only made this little comment to remind me to come back and read your post again.
When I lived in Britain, I remember reading an article that compared cancer survival rates in the US, UK and Canada for the 4 most common cancers. No health care system won hands down. If you compare otherwise healthy Americans with good health insurance, you do find America does better. But, then, limiting the comparison to otherwise healthy Brits and Canadians with good jobs might improve the results for that systems, too.

And, of course, in the UK, you can have NHS gap insurance and avoid the waiting lists.

Anyone can cherry pick statistics, but the facts are hard to compare and no system is an obvious winner.

The British system is flawed, but a hell of a lot better than the US system. (I lived in the UK for 5 year and have good US insurance now). However, many of the flaws in that system come from the politics and history of the system. Those are unique to the development of the NHS and would not be part of a US system.