Dennis Loo

Sometimes asking for the impossible is the only realistic path

Dennis Loo

Dennis Loo
Location
Los Angeles, California,
Birthday
December 31
Title
Professor of Sociology
Company
Cal Poly Pomona
Bio
Author of Globalization and the Demolition of Society; Co-Editor/Author of Impeach the President: the Case Against Bush and Cheney, World Can't Wait Steering Committee Member, co-author of "Crimes Are Crimes, No Matter Who Does Them" statement, dog and fruit tree lover. Published poet. Winner of the Alfred R. Lindesmith Award, Project Censored Award and the Nation Magazine's Most Valuable Campaign Award. Punahou and Harvard Honor Graduate. Ph.D. in Sociology from UC Santa Cruz. An archive of close to 500 postings of mine can be found at my blogspot blog, Dennis Loo, link below. I publish regularly at dennisloo.com, worldcantwait.net (link below) and also at OpEd News and sometimes at Counterpunch.

MAY 15, 2009 5:48PM

The Ticking Time Bomb II

Rate: 12 Flag

 New material added 5/16/09 1:20 am EST

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These are two of the sixty photographs given to the Australian press previously that the Sydney Morning Herald is publishing now. They may be among the photographs that Obama is now refusing to release. 

Notice that the man in the first photo is packed in ice because, presumably, he is dead. Behind his head appears to be part of the body bag.  

These photos are part of the real ticking time bomb that Obama wants to avoid setting off in the realm of American and world public opinion.

As Mike Malloy put it at Huffington Post:

“If we are to believe reports that began circulating four years ago, reports from investigative journalists such as Seymour Hersh, their release would unleash a wave of anti-American hatred that would endanger the lives of not just U.S. soldiers, but the lives of all Americans, civilians as well as military personnel. Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: ‘Some of the worse that happened that you don’t know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men … . The women were passing messages saying “Please come and kill me, because of what’s happened." Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They [the Bush Crime Family] are in total terror it’s going to come out.’

“At today’s White House press briefing, press secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters that the president was concerned that the photos’ release would pose a national security threat. In other words, these unreleased photos and videos show acts of degeneracy so vile there is no way they can be explained or rationalized. They contain images of children - some of them the children of detainees - being raped and sodomized as a means of forcing confessions from the adult detainees that would provide the links between Saddam Hussein and al-Quaeda that Dick Cheney and George W. Bush insisted were the basis of their orders to invade and occupy Iraq. Children of detainees being raped and sodomized as a means of obtaining confessions. In testimony before Congress five years ago no less a war criminal than the murderous former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the unrevealed photos and videos contain acts ‘that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.’” 

Fundamentalist Christians such as Gary Bauer, President of American Values (sic) and Chairman of the Working Campaign, former president of the Family Research Council and presidential candidate in 2000, who, in posing the question: "What is a follower of Jesus permitted to do?" answered with this, "[I]t depends... I think if we believe the person we have can give us information to stop thousands of Americans from being killed, it would be morally suspect to not use harsh tactics to get that information." 

Besides the obvious hypocrisy of an alleged man of God here advocating the use of torture, there are two fatal flaws in the logic of those who defend the use of torture.

The first one is a moral one and the second is a practical one. Both are sufficient reasons, individually and by themselves, to repudiate the use of torture. 

The moral issue is this: even if it were the case that there was a ticking time bomb and you could maybe save some Americans' lives by torturing a detainee, what makes Americans' lives more precious than those of all of these detainees who have been and are being tortured? 

In case that moral argument doesn't register, then consider the practical question.

As I wrote in a previous essay, "Out of the Woodwork: Today's Torquemadas,"

The “Ticking Time Bomb”

This is the rationale of today’s Torquemadas: we are saving American lives and we must do it or else. It is also a favorite of shows like 24 whose purpose is to dignify torture and to justify it in an entertainment format.

But the ticking time bomb scenario is simply fiction. Here is why:

If you capture a suspect and are convinced that he or she knows something about an immediately pending terrorist attack, what terrorist cell, as soon as one of theirs is out of contact for an extended period – remember this is supposed to be just a day or less to the bomb going off, so this group will be very careful about staying in touch and having signals that none of them has been picked up - wouldn’t immediately cancel their plans?

Furthermore, if you suspect that this person’s a terrorist, or even know for a fact that this person’s a terrorist, you then have a choice: do you torture this person and thereby ruin any chances of obtaining their cooperation in the future and gain through torture of them information that you don’t know is truthful because you’ve tortured them to get it, and also, by torturing them, destroy any chances of convicting this person for any crimes, thereby putting this person and yourself in legal limbo? Or do you try to use methods that will get you reliable information? 

***

We are now engaged in a battle for the conscience and the future of America.

On the one side, you find those who openly endorse and advocate torture and pre-emptive wars on anyone who dares to even look cross-eyed at the U.S.  

This side includes people who call themselves Christians and the biggest patriots on the planet.

This side also includes those like Obama who is doing his best to try to "look forward" and preaches that this is a time for "reflection, not retribution," and who has falsely described these policies under Bush as the actions of a "small number of individuals," rather than what it is, the policies of the U.S. government.  

On the other side, you find those who are appalled and shocked at the depravity of torture and who demand that "it all must come out." 

Those who preach that we should give Obama "more time" and insist that agitating about these monstrous crimes is wrong are not following closely or logically what Obama is doing and has done. They are being blinded by wishful thinking and not looking at the actual facts.

If Obama really intended to go after the torturers, he wouldn't be defending their practices in court and he wouldn't be describing them as acting in good faith and with the best of intentions, and he wouldn't be saying that these were the actions of a "small number of individuals." Obama's actions amount to mounting a legal, political and "moral" defense for torturers. You do not do this if you actually plan to later on go after them and bring them to justice. 

But let's imagine that what I just said isn't true and we ignore it.

Consider just this: if Obama really does want to go after these torturers and really does want to end these horrid practices, once and for all, then he needs a public groundswell of demands for justice, here and now. He does not need or want people to stand back passively and hope for the best. He needs all those who want justice to be creating an atmosphere in the society that insists upon and will not back down until justice is done.  

Thus, if you still think that Obama is on the side of the angels, then help him do the right thing. Call on him to prosecute the torturers now and don't stop till it's done. He needs you to be very vocal and visible about this to combat the right wing extremists who are daily and hourly agitating for the opposite.

Finally, for those who say now is not the time because the GOP will call it a "witch hunt" and everything will go down the tubes and the Democrats and Obama will take the fall:

If all it takes to prevent justice from being done is that the GOP opposes it and will call you and your efforts a lot of bad names, then this means that justice can never be done and moral monsters like Bush and Cheney will never be prosecuted for their crimes against humanity, because the GOP will always fight you tooth and nail on these issues. They will never give it up.  

Those who cry that a fight over torture must at all costs be avoided now are in effect saying that no fight over torture can be waged - ever.  

The only chance justice has is if all of the terrible truths are allowed to come out. If enough of it does come out through hearings and trials, then the GOP will have no credibility left. They will have nowhere to hide. Their standing as a party will be destroyed for at least a generation or two. The cheerleaders for the Democratic Party will get their fondest wish.

 

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I support Obama, and respect him, but this is his biggest test and I am very, very worried. He'd better hurry. If these pictures are posted in press around the world, but not by American press, he (we) are going to look pretty complicit. And that will make the U.S. look remarkably like every other totalitarian regime that was hiding something and was hoping no one would ever "find out", until the truth was exposed.

There go the last shreds of whatever morality we claimed to possess.
DCV: Thanks for your comments. The worry you feel is entirely justified for reasons that you state. It's up to the people to push for revelations and justice now.
We are missing the real point, which is the return of Great Power politics; this terrorism stuff is a total distraction.
So what if a terrorist "nuked" a city; that is all they could do, and if it happens shortly, it was really Russia, but in any event, only Russia, China and the U.S. can bring down whole countries and civilizations, not people in caves. We have gone totally overboard on this stuff.
Don: But, of course, the war of terror is totally overboard, but that is its point - to drive up people's fears and to cow them into accepting unjust measures such as pre-emptive wars, torture, and the deprivation of fundamental rights.
Reddit had an article about Australia having those photos in the top 50 a couple of days ago and of course I clicked over. They had published fifteen of them two years ago and I copied them all to post here later. Interestingly enough the photos I had been using in the OS torture compendium posts were amongst them.

The fact that 60 were leaked means the rest will inevitably come out no matter what Obama and the rest of the war criminals do.

We have to keep the pressure on and continue to support the ACLU as it fights this battle for us. monkey fingered.
Dennis. What we need is a global outcry for something resembling The Nuremberg Trials. War criminals such as Donald Rumsfeld or Dick Cheney will never be brought to justice in the United States. This really isn't about Democrats or Republicans. Don't you see - President Obama and Hillary Clinton belong to the SAME club as Dick Cheney and George Bush. The mainstream media wants us to think that they hate each other. Behind closed doors, Cheney and Obama are much more similar than most people think.
No, Obama will not prosecute. Look at the facts, he has actually increased the Defense budget. American troops will NEVER leave Iraq - they are there for good to protect the 75% deal that the major oil companies negotiated with the Iraqi gov't - the Iraqis get to keep only 25% of the profits from their own oil.

Here's one way to prosecute men like Cheney and Rumsfeld. Kidnap them like the Israelis kidnapped Adolf Eichmann. Then give them a fair trial at an international tribunal.
Littlewillie: I agree with you about the similarities between Cheney and Obama. They belong to the same club, as you say. As for whether or not there will be prosecutions in the U.S.: as Lawrence of Arabia says in the film, "nothing is written."

It has yet to decided. It hangs in the balance. More revelations will be forthcoming. The blood and the crimes are too immense to be shut out of the public view indefinitely. The worm is turning and we will see.

It is up to the American people especially whether or not the necessary atmosphere is created through the actions and exposures by the people and their allies to force hearings and trials.
I could hardly believe it when Obama said that these pictures were "not particularly sensational". He really put his foot in it there. If they are released and that turns out to be a lie (which is more than likely), he is up a certain creek without a certain instrument. And it doesn't exactly match his statement that their release would foment hatred against American troops. If he's expecting us to yawn when we see the photos, why is he withholding them from the public in the first place?

More and more, he takes ownership of this scandal.
No friend of Powell (see his activities re: My Lai, etc.), I; however he DID say: "you break it you buy it."

obama, whom I am ashamed to admit I, also voted for, has broken his word numerous times, and no amount of gyrations or attempted dissembling will change the fact that he now does, indeed, own it.

AfPak, a campaign doomed to failure is his, now.

And, although, there MAY be no more water-boarding taking place in Bagram, if you think torture (as defined by the Geneva Conventions) has ceased, then I believe that there still exists a bridge to nowhere up in Alaska (You know THAT place -- it is where one can become an expert in Sovietology, 'cause you can see it from there) still up for sale.

All you need to do is dial WAsilla thirty-eleventeen.
Norwonk and Mark: Ownership he takes, yes. When, I wonder, will some of those Americans who haven't yet owned up to what Obama is all about do so? If you follow someone blindly because you're convinced that he's the one, then you will discover one day - hopefully - that you have gone down a path that you would never have gone down if you'd not been convinced that he's the One.
It's almost as if the perfect storm of job losses, a near dead economy and record foreclosures keep many people focuses on themselves instead of the collective responsibility of inhumanity. Americans are notoriously good about being distracted by their own individual fears and greed. Coincidence that these two things are going on while our government continues to get away with dismantling everything we ever believed in and rewrites the rules as they go along to serve themselves? I think not. Rated.
Beyond the awful acts themselves, what's most foul about this is the implication of Obama's argument, that is to say, he is arguing that it is more important to restore our economy than to restore our collective soul.

Like the notion of a short war, the notion that atrocities will remain hidden persists in spite of the abundant history that says otherwise. Sooner or later, conspiracies -- and there has been, and continues to be a conspiracy of silence on the part of those involved in these atrocities -- are always revealed.

As I've said many times before, only those who are ignorant of our own history, especially in regard to slavery and the "ethnic cleansing" of Indians, believe atrocities couldn't happen here. They have, and they will again unless we rise up as one and say "Never again".
I believe it was Malcolm X, who went from being a pimp and a hustler to becoming one of the most outstanding leaders in US history, who said that people need to study history. He educated himself in prison by reading voraciously.

Those who don't know history, or who are content with the sanitized version they're exposed to in school and via the mass media, and who are doing the same with contemporary events (accepting what the headlines tell them and not looking beneath the surface) are condemned to repeating the errors of the past.

In this instance, specifically, we see all too many people behaving as "good Germans" in the face of atrocities committed by their government.

Cartouche and Tom: thank you for your insights.
Dennis,

I would never have dreamed that I would be the one that would be posting counterpoints of sorts to your posts. I am sickened by all of this, whatever the "level" of torture. Hearing about the children makes me downright despondent. This needs to be investigated and now. Releasing the photos is probably a moot point, as they will find the light of day at some point, whether we release them or not.

I do think Obama is trying to work through this in a way that is least destructive to our country and our servicemen and women, while changing policies and doing the right thing. But, I, like dcv am worried about him now.

d

d
Dennis Yoo Etc., IF I expressed my appreciation @ Open Salon for the many who a respect ...
Nature might stub Ya toe.
Ya know I love edification.
I believe in honesty and truth.
~
I've been ponderous @ foe ~ so forevers?
When I sense truth and beauty, I'll say so.
You are a bell on a calm lake that ripples.
~~
That's just to convey you are not a bad ape.`
~~
The monkey is viewed as a mischievous figure.
It's in ancient writ, art, and silk's screen scrolls.
The monkey does entertain with a somersaults.
`
The monkey King stories always advance truths.
He exposed frauds, rogues, and was never rude.
IF I could "monkey finger" I would any old day.
`
Ya from teach-in a great school, you do OP ED.
Hat tip to Dennis Loo. You protect our country.
Rather than war, lie, and no cowers like a fools.
`
You can be a Dennis Jack-in Box for these times.
You play a great monkey grinder and no peanut.
You share a peanut for the human ape monkeys.
~
I say:`A Confused media needs to read your writ.
May the human's dharma never cease expression.
Capital Hill is so tethered to the:`dip-pit hell-post.
`
Ladies speak as wize folklorist. Men companion 'um.
Speech is soothing when it's spoken with wing-words.
Thee Word penetrates a human heart. Truth do heals.
`
You never confuse. Confucian ideas break via stones.
The human heart can become the proverbial deadpan.
You are as clear as a truth speaker . Ya knocks and peck.
`
I mean:`Ya remind me of Nature's monkey who can swing.
The monkey would always swing in fruit laden trees. shares.
The good monkey could raise a good racket by chirping loud.
`
I use to watch a monk in the triple canopy war jungles. Sad.
But, also the monkey would provide fruit, flower, and nuts.
Ancient scrolls are colorful scenes:`rakes, fruit:`a paradise.
`
The fruit would drop to earth at the perfect moment to Feed.
~
Truth is served as a delicious fruit on a silver platter. Greats.
Keep denouncing the predators who maim, lie, and sip blood.
A NSA may peek, and who cares? Oy, karma's cause and effect.
~
A creep may spy with telescopes? Ay, see a miserable imprints.
`
same same
insane dark
burden 'um

They ruin a ecosystem, economy, and never will care as a faithful.

steward of truth.
Expose all thugs.
No peep @ dupe.

I saw a red woodpecker that has a wing-span of about 18- inches. The bird pecks trees for larvae, dry insect grub, and it peck a ant.
Politico's steal from pine tree bark:`the caterpillar, beetle-bug,

spider, and puff roaches?
Damn depraved critters.
They bark up a dogwood?
`
sorry. I saw a dead raccoon
and a dead possum or three
and they shoot any diversity

if a scream clarion siren sound
'um wll snoop in shallow bogs
Nature know 'um an amphibian

People best grow and mature
or,
they will not metabolize toxin

Back to a clasic monkey King
The tail advise about secrets
A fraud is the scoundrel louse

The monkey is literature cures
and plants thee best juicy fruit
swing on the sacred trees Yeas

Oy, no excuse to pay homages,
to the phony big lier, lair, LIES!
monkey was in a Peach Paradise.

It's a story in Lao Tzu. Good truth.
My Good Fortune wish to Mr. Loo.
You and others are thee protector.
`
I hope Dennis Loo and many folks
no stub the big toe on tree stumps
Ya are never rude. Ya insult goods

Ya and other's can be grassroots
Be a movements toward insights
'perfect lights' will cause panics

A moral:`Be engaged. Tell truths
Ignite grassroot festival animations
A thug will soon or later disintegrates
`
I was supposed to be elsewhere. I'm angry.
Keep advocating the peaceful resolutions.
Rare. Ya know truth, and beauty IF Ya look.

Let the cheerleaders fluff paper pom pom
'Um the sounding gong with tin can tinsel
politico's are cackling geese, no substance

'Um wastrels briars thistle chaff worthless
One day a scythe reaper will be:`oil burner
`'um knows there is no place a flea can flee

`
I can't get on the Open Salon's front -page.I just wish to view the front page to read the Feed. Or, quickly browse what do I wish for?

Truths
Gimme
Beauty

O read? Who snoop?
No. Oh my gads Zeus!
Thunder in mountain!

O do Good New Post?
Who cares for vanity?
O dagger in my heart?
~
Good. a shadow. bliss

I'm weary of stinkers
'um a garbage sniffer
and so is 'um breaths

I may take a leave
bum thee doughs
pay farm helpers

Born in a world
a brief span ago
be you no QUIT

After my chilly baths
You wonder:`O why?
Live in the harmony

Eat corn hominy too
monoxide can kill Ya
Treat a gardner well

Sludge will kill farm lands. Read about:`Sludge? It's dumped on:`
corn soybean barley
precious farm fields
and it's a toxic dumps
O make the land dead?
Solid-waste mafia club!

GOPS cheat people all day. Neocons sponge. 'Um gulp-off and in the

Hog trough. Capital Hill's a slop.
They are proverbial:`hog wilds.
"Them" are not:`Winnie Pooh.
~
IF Ya no speak, a dagger
may pierce your hearts
'um have filthy brains

~
It just began to poor down
`Sing? And a hard rain fell?
My brain needs a cleansed
Denese: Thank you for your comments.

As Kurtz says in Joseph Conrad's The Heart of Darkness: "the horror, the horror." The crimes of Bush and Company are so monstrous that Obama does not want it to come out because if it did, the Democrats' complicity in it all would be hard for them to skirt. The effects would be profoundly destabilizing.

But as Norwonk points out in the comments here and as you note as well, we will probably see at least some of these photos someday, and Obama's covering it up and his cover story for why he's doing it are probably not going to stand up to scrutiny.

His candidacy was based on convincing Americans that he was a change agent. The expectations accompanying his election are as high as they've ever been for any US president.

This is a two-edged sword for him because to retain his legitimacy, he must behave differently, at least on the surface, than his predecessor. But the high expectations also mean that when he does disappoint, the distance he will fall is much further.

Arthur: Thank you so very much. I love this line of yours (if I can so immodestly love it):

"You are a bell on a calm lake that ripples."
Robert Parry of Consortium News writes today:

“'One of the reasons these techniques have been used for about 500 years is that they work,' [Senator Lindsay] Graham said on May 13 in the latest Republican justification of Bush’s authorization of tactics such as forced nudity, sleep deprivation, painful stress positions and the near-drowning of waterboarding."

Sen. Graham (S. Carolina - R) is touting the virtues of the Spanish Inquisition!

So it comes to this, the GOP's official line now is that they are doing what Torquemada, the infamous Spanish inquisitor, did to the unbelievers - using torture.

The difference is that Torquemada made no secret of the fact that what he was doing was in fact, torture. Our very own GOP, on the other hand, continues to claim that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" aren't torture.

Sen. Graham, by the way, along with Sen. Joe Lieberman, was lobbying Obama hard to prevent the release of the incriminating photographs.
The ticking time bome scenario is a farce, as you point out. The moral argument is as well, not only because of what you said, but because torture is not a new technique. It is a very old one, making its current ban all the more important. The U. S. and the rest of the western world knew the arguments for using torture and still banned it. That already answers those who are arguing for it now.
Thank you for publishing this. You have done already lots of work to keep the discussion going on and we will continue.

I think that there is still hope that the tide would turn and Americans would awake. An article published by a good journalist like Hersh in the right place might do the job.

I think that you cannot expect much good from Obama. He is maybe not even important, he seems to be following the orders of some others. But some congressmen could start doing something even if the majority of congress already voted for giving more money for Obama's wars.

Some international lawyers might now manage to do something. Maybe form UN? Many UN inspectors were walked over before starting the war against Iraq. Somebody there might be willing to do something and might have even power enough. A good sign is that Canada has already told to pull their troops out of Afghanistan.
Jan: As you point out, the illegality and immorality of torture was determined a very long time ago and that is why the laws were and are as they are. The fact that our government has overruled this, the Bush White House and Congress, both under the Republicans and the Democrats majority, and that Obama refuses to reverse what he participated in as a Senator, tells us something decisive about the stage of metamorphosis that is underway before our eyes.

Hannu: It's true that some of the initiative around this is coming and may come further from the rest of the world. But it remains true that the demands of the American people in this regard are critical.
I fully agree that by far the most important people regarding the matter are Americans. For nationalist reasons Americans will not accept much foreigners' advice.

I think that an organization, which has got enough power, international support and publicity could take the things into the law court in America. I mean suspected torturing cases and unlawful detentions. What about Amnesty International USA?

From the latest press statement :

-----------------------------------------------
Amnesty International Press Statement
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Friday, May 15, 2009

Obama Breaks Major Campaign Promise as Military Commissions Resume, Says Amnesty International

Human Rights Organization Reiterates Call for Detainees to be Tried in U.S. Federal Courts


Contact: AIUSA media office, 202-544-0200 x302, lspann@aiusa.org

(Washington) - In response to President Barack Obama restarting the military commissions at the U.S.-controlled detention facility in Guantanamo Bay, Amnesty International's executive director Larry Cox issued the following statement:

"President Obama is reinstating the same deeply-flawed military commissions that in June 2008 he called an 'enormous failure.' In one swift move, Obama both backtracks on a major campaign promise to change the way the United States fights terrorism and undermines the nation's core respect for the rule of law by sacrificing due process for political expediency.

“Whatever revisions the Obama administration has made to the commissions do not change the fact that the commissions do not provide an adequate standard of justice for the detainees nor the victims of terrorism--they merely mock the U.S. Constitution, international laws and undermine fundamental human rights standards.
“What happened to President Obama's confidence in the U.S. justice system's ability to try detainees? He himself said that 'we need not throw away 200 years of American jurisprudence while we fight terrorism.'
"U.S. federal courts are a perfectly sound system to try any and all detainees. They have brought other terror suspects to justice, and there is no reason why these courts cannot continue to do the same."
---------------------------
Don: I think that 'The War on Terror' was a new chapter and a new move in the Great Power politics. It was invented for attacking and annihilating anybody, who is substantially weaker than U.S. It means that nobody else is allowed to enter into the circle of the great powers, China, Russia, India and U.S. When the field is clear of the lesser players, who could do a lot of harm if joined together, it is the turn of the other great powers. To annihilate them. The time of the Empire.
Hannu: Thanks for this material from AI and the Empire's new doctrine (aka the Bush Doctrine which Obama has adopted) of annihilate any of your potential rivals.

Arthur: Want to express again how honored I feel by your poems.