And what about the people who do not keep the Sabbath holy?

I agree it's illogical.

I'm with you -- I don't get it, either. And I don't see how people think that if a gay person gets married, how that has anything to do with their own marriage. It makes no sense to me. You'd think people had more important things to worry about.

Thanks, guys. This is something I have had rattling around in my head for a while, and I finally got it written down.

This is something I haven't really thought about before. Awesome take on the issue. If we go ahead and look at being gay as a sin, whether the assumption is absurd or not, it still is surely below so many other terrible things people do to each other. It makes no sense to deprive the gay community the right to marry but offer it to other 'sinners'. I may use this in my next argument.
Rated.

It has always seemed to me that even if homosexuality were a sin (which I truly don't think it is), the only people who need to worry about that are the people involved in the homosexual relationship.

Agreed. It's like they view marriage as their own private fraternity and they get to choose who belongs in it. That's why marriage should not be viewed as a religious sacrament....it's more of a business arrangement/partnership than anything else....so the 'sin' argument would have no place in whether someone has the right to get married.

As far as Newt Gingrich is concerned, he is definitely one to talk. His first wife was his former geometry teacher, he visited her hospital room to discuss divorce terms right after she had cancer surgery. He married his second wife months later.....his most recent conqu...um....wife is the woman he was cheating on wife number two with. Yeah, he's pretty much an embarrassment in these parts.

An evangelical I work with told me "sin is sin, murder is the same as homosexuality".

I have to admit I didn't know what to say to that except, "I just don't understand that."

This is a really terrific argument, and I think this post should be an editor's pick. You might need to spike the title a little bit, though...

For example, "Rapists can marry... why not Gays?"

Perhaps that one is a bit over the top... but you could probably come up with something in your own voice that would grab a reader's -- not to mention an editor's -- attention.

kaysong, that is so weird. So that coworker would consider murder the same as not honoring the Sabbath or one's parents? I don't get ultra-religious people.

OK, I took ktm's most excellent suggestion and changed the title. Thanks! :)

For the record, I do not believe the being gay is a sin. There is only the one line, and the same passage also condemns the wearing of clothes of mixed fibers and eating shellfish, both of which I am guilty!

I also don’t get the idea that homosexuality is on the same plane as murder. What the hell kind of god is THAT?

Rated.
Excellent take on a ridiculous argument.
But no one ever said the bible was logical, just divinely inspired. So one cannot expects its adherents to be logical while claiming divine direction for their and your life.

You're most welcome. And, I'm leaving this comment to keep this post in the feed...

Exactly, buckeyedoc! Otherwise he is a very nice guy and I truly think he would be polite and respectful of anyone who was gay that he had to work with - he would just believe they were going to hell and he wouldn't socialize with them. He also believes in seperation of church and state and has no problem with civil unions for gays. He just doesn't believe they should be allowed to marry.

oh, I had forgotten about the shellfish one, dragonfly. It's completely illogical but as someone else said, having faith is kind of precludes applying logic to the Bible.

I just don't get it.

Dragonfly, I haven't seen anyone argue against same-sex marriage because they don't think two sinners should get married. The usual argument that I've seen is one of the variations on the theme that two people of the same sex can't make a "real marriage". So your counter-argument strikes me as a non sequitur.

(The usual argument as I see it is also full of holes, so I agree with you in essence. I just don't think you're making a useful point here.)

I believe the most frequently cited Biblical prohibition against homosexuality comes from the Old Testament book of Leviticus, which also prohibits, among other things, eating pork, wearing certain fibers, or sharing a bed with a women during her menstrual period. I don't get the cherry picking.

Any anti-gay marriage ham eaters out there who can illuminate?

Sometimes, simple reasoning cannot be explained… this is one of those things that stump the mind.

Dragonfly...you must be reading my mind.

I have been writing about this same subject from a Christian perspective which I intend to publish today. More people need to be asking these questions.

Lets compare notes after my post.

D-fly, The sanctity of marriage argument doesn't hold water, does it. I don't see what the hoopla is all about. It simply doesn't concern anyone that is not involved. Marriage is a legal issue, not a religious one. The courts desolve marriages, not the church. Athiests get married everyday. To deny the rights of someone who is gay is just wrong.

The Governor of Florida is getting married Dec. 12 in St. Petersburg. There is a gay rights demonstration planned for outside the wedding. By the way, Florida just voted down a proposal that would allow gay marriage. It just didn't get the national play Prop 8 in California got.

I don't see how preventing gays from marrying damages straight marriages. On the other hand, it's obvious to me that marriage and its sanctity are devalued by divorce, adultery, 3 a.m. Vegas weddings on a drunk, religious marriages of 40 year old men to to unconsenting 13 year old girls (fringe Mormorns, I'm talking to you), domestic violence, and...well do I really have to continue? If there were really an intent to protect and strengthen the institution of marriage the attention would be focused on those matters that directly impact marriage as it stands not telling others that they can't join the club. Preventing someone else from building a house does nothing to prevent my rickety shack from crumbling.

bearpaw, one of the arguments that was used to pass Prop 8 in California was that we had to "protect marriage". With the vast majority of Prop 8 advocates having religious reasons for voting the way they did, my argument is that in the hierarchy of “sins” that threaten marriage, homosexuality is pretty far down the list.

As a Christian minister - a Baptist even - I can answer a few of these.

1. Because Christian, like everyone, can be bigoted pricks. Sorry but I'm in the club. I see this.

2. On a serious note: What's going on is subtle. Homosexuals are the whipping boys/girls. A conservative mega-church is filled wealthy, middle to upper-class suburban Republicans. Their very lives run about 180 degrees counter to what Jesus taught. But they have a deep need to feel "conservative" and "Bible believing." The pastors want to be seen as real "Bible believing" ministers too. But they also get paid. They have, for all practical purposes, constituents. So instead of railing from the pulpit against the stuff that Jesus hated and taking a risk of losing their jobs as they offend 80% of the people in the pews, they rail against homosexuals and "liberals". Everyone is safe in the pews. No one gets offended within the fold. And everyone can claim to be serious, "Bible believing" Christians.

Of course, any homosexuals present are in such deep denial or so deep in the closet that they aren't going to complain. And yes, there are tons of self-hating, sad and broken, gays and lesbians still listening to that shit. It breaks my heart to think of it. I'm ashamed of what my religious community has done. But that's another issue, one for me to work out.

I've read the whole Bible and everything it says about homosexuality. It amounts to nothing. It's time the Church repented. Any homosexual people that would even be interested in being connected with the church after all of this are obviously such Ghandi-like saints that they should probably become pastors and lead the Church for awhile. I'd be on board for that.

But that won't happen. The world is skewed and wrong. That's also a Christian idea and this whole subject is evidence of its truth.

Thank you Real Live Preacher! I'd like to go to your church.

Harry, I look forward to your post!

Marriage does have a lot of legal ramifications, and I don’t think anyone is arguing that churches should have to marry anyone they don’t want to, heack, a couple of churches turned myself and Mr Fly down when we were looking for a place to be married. But the civil marriage should not be denied to any consenting adult.

lil leary, I could not agree more with you. I can list many divorces, affairs and other bad behavior amongst my hetero friends. One friend was quite pissed at me when I asked him if he was protecting the sanctity of his first marriage, or his second or his third. That conversation did not end well.

Real Live Preacher, I so wish you preached around here, I could go back to church! This:

A conservative mega-church is filled wealthy, middle to upper-class suburban Republicans. Their very lives run about 180 degrees counter to what Jesus taught.

Perfectly describes the churches around here, and the people who were marching around with their Yes On 8 signs. It must really tick you off that Christianity has been jacked. Thanks for your post.

Yes jacked. That's how it feels. And Christianity is especially vulnerable to that, as are all spiritual traditions. Because anyone can claim the name and start speaking for all of us.

Yet another thing that will not be perfect and has to be lived with in some kind of grace and peace. In a way, living with the church is its own kind of crazy penance. ;-)

Where is the logic?? Great post! As for the line in the Bible that you mentioned- there is great debate over the meaning behind that, as well as the context.

In a way, living with the church is its own kind of crazy penance.

RLP, LOL, I have a dear friend who is the wife of a Presbyterian minister, I have heard the stories!

As for the line in the Bible that you mentioned- there is great debate over the meaning behind that, as well as the context.

Yes, you are right. But even if I concede that homosexuality is a sin, and I don’t, but I’ll play along, the argument still doesn’t stand up. I’m a logical creature, and this has been bugging the crap out of me for some time now.

Great post....hypocrisy and ignorance abound in those anti gay-marriage protesters. So ridiculous.

Those are a part of the big Ten too (no, not Collegiate conference) the Commandments. I don't see "thou shalt not be gay" in there.
Hypocrisy indeed.

OMG, what brilliant logic. Seriously, concede for a moment (just one moment!) that gays are all sinners, like the conservative nuts claim. So....why can't sinners get married? Or, more accurately, why is only the one kind of sinner prevented from marrying? Wow. That's good.

Three cheers for Real Live Preacher... it is great to hear a man who knows how to be a true Christian. Excellent comment!

Mel White has an amazing story as a once Christian ghost writer for the likes of Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell. His story, "Stranger at the Gate" is wonderful, compelling and inspiration. Real Preacher--you are a true Christian.

And don't forget the "marriage is for procreation" argument and variants thereof. If that is so, then let's ban marriage for post-menopausal women, vasectomized men, and other infertile couples. It's gross enough to think of my 86yo grandmother getting her honeymoon freak on if she got married again; however, I would be saved such mental anguish if marriage was limited to those who could produce children.

P.S. Apologies to anyone whom I've just scarred for weeks or months to come.

i get it: it makes religious people happy to have 'in' and 'out' groups. they are always in the 'in' group.

if they murder their wife, they're still 'in'. and they might murder...

homosexuality, otoh, no chance! so that can be safely 'out', as they will never be in.

then there's the bible- pretty clear about male homosexuality. murder otoh, is a bit murky, there is that bit about 'eye for eye'...

can't see any rational objection to civil marriage for everyone, followed by religious ceremony for them as fancies it.

Maybe one of Sarah Palin's children will come out as gay and then s/he will be "in" (as apparently unmarried pregnant teenagers are) and it will all be settled.

“OK, I get that there is that one pesky line in the Bible about not lying with man like you would a woman”

First of all, you really have to understand the scriptures to understand this issue.

You see, among many, many other utterly fascinating stories in his book, God one day decided to disallow killing so he presented some laws to a guy who was fond of watching bushes in the hills spontaneously combust. Yet this same god, many years later, gave his “only son” to a bunch of thugs to ridicule, beat, torture and eventually kill (and by the way, not simply murder, but to do so in the most cruel, heinous and inhumane manner they could think of). And when you really examine this "author’s" demeanor, you discover that he can be quite the sadist; “for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me. Man! Am I glad everyone after my great, grandfather was perfect, or I would be in serious trouble with the principle, yet one more time!

Let’s don’t forget “You shall not commit adultery.” Doh!. This excludes immaculate conceptions, right???? “Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife.” (Look man! I’m getting old. Coveting is about all I have left). Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave.” Whoa! Is he saying it’s OK to have slaves? Just don’t marry one if they’re of the same gender.

The fun in these “scriptures” goes on, and on, and on…. Poor Lot’s wife is probably in someone’s salt-shaker somewhere in the Middle East just for “looking back” and Abraham was convinced that he needed to sacrifice his son, Isaac, only to be stopped at the last moment by a kind-hearted god who loves to see fathers wretched with dismay. What is it with God and people’s children anyway? Seems just a little odd to me that some eternally kind “father in heaven” would not only promote such nasty behavior, but even commit some on his really off days Yet he supposedly allowed his own son to be killed for them all because he loved them so?

But, by god, don’t let him catch you loving another human because he/she is of the same gender. Really, really bad stuff down that road.

As I said; you really have to understand the scriptures.

It seems to me that the socially conservative evangelical base of, say, Sarah Palin doesn't want homosexuals to marry because they believe homosexuals are beneath them and if they can get married too then what else is left? It's kind of a superiority complex, if you will, and it's disgusting. Just another way to deny a group of people their basic human rights.

Awesome article.

Wow, so many good comments!

Greg, thanks for your comment, that is exactly my point.

Lainey, thank you! No has ever called me brilliant before! My evil twin is laughing hysterically over the thought of one of Plain’s children coming out.

Bigolpoofter, ah yes, the marriage is for procreation argument. They get really huffy if you ask about infertile couples. I know, ‘cause I asked. And no, I did not get an answer.

can't see any rational objection to civil marriage for everyone, followed by religious ceremony for them as fancies it.

Actually al loomis, I think this is exactly what we are going to have to implement. It’s only fair.

Look man! I’m getting old. Coveting is about all I have left.

Bob conner, you owe me a new monitor, I spit Dr Pepper all mine when I read this. Love the schnauzer, too.

Tristan, thank you for your comment. It is disgusting to deny someone civil rights.

Rated and appreciated.

I'm totally with you. It seems nuts to accuse gays of "destroying the institution of marriage" after all we straight people have done to destroy it. I consider myself a Christian and I've done some reading on this subject. Apparently, in the Bible, the same Hebrew word (often translated as "abomination") is used to condemn homosexual sex and activities like breaking the kosher rules and wearing 2 kinds of fabric at the same time. So until all the right-wing Christians keep kosher and don't wear wool sweaters with cotton slacks, I say they should leave this subject alone.