I had formatting issues...Sorry. I'm not really use to this blog.

I've never thought it wasn't about money, but appreciate your clarifying it.

(rated)

LT,

Strangely, there are those who dispute this truth and find reason to condemn when it comes to light.

Not so strange. People get weird when sexuality is involved.

Seriously like anyone would talk to horny drunks, wear dngerously painful shoes, and have goose bumps from the AC all night for any other reason. Thx

LT, I could not have said it any better myself
though I will be trying.

Uh, yes. And I wouldn't complain that they want money in return for their services. See how long I'll do my work, if people aren't prepared to offer the remuneration I believe I so richly deserve.

I still wouldn't date a stripper. Personal choice, based on observation.

Hadrian,

hehe. Yes, what you say is true to a point. There are times when strippers actually enjoy it. But I promise you, the very moment her efforts on stage are not rewarded with the green, she is livid.

MTN,

Yes, I've seen your observations. Expect a rebuttal shortly.
Thanks for checking in.

nothing is scarier than a woman with an opinion or with power.

sexual or otherwise. Boo!

I dig strippers, They've got more guts than I do. If guys didn't love titties and beer so much there wouldn't be any strip clubs. So I see it as fulfilling a societal need. I can't imagine anything more beautiful than the female body, but that's just me.
Hey Elekctra, Did you ever figure out what an air stripper was?
And I also live on a street named Electra avenue, so I got that going for me.

MDawn,

boo yourself, sister! My thoughts...

I dated a dancer. She was one of the most respectable, charming, engaging, totally nice women I have ever known.

She did it for the money.

Michael,

I can give you some bare facts about the video. This ad campaign coincided with a high profile make-over by Italian designer Pucci from plane to stewardess. The stewardess would change clothes many times during a single flight. Read more:

http://www.braniffpages.com/1965/1965.html

This stuff is hilarious and delightfully outdated. But what are your thoughts about it in or out of this context? I'm still formulating mine, by the way.

that makes them a lot more honest than most.

Dynomyte,
Nice comment. Thank so much.

Ben Sen, thank you also for your comment.
I couldn't agree more. In fact, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Reason 11: even more money

MTN, I wouldn't have a problem (were I single) dating a FORMER stripper, I believe though that a current stripper would pose a problem. Any man that would touch my woman in a sexual way would awaken a sleeping giant. Maybe that's sexist, but that's the one vestige of sacred male/female relationships that I hold onto. Now one that was a former, and stripper ONLY (which I know is the majority), I would have no problem with. The past is the past.

rated for honesty.

You mean it never has anything to do with all the free drugs?

The important thing to consider (and remember) is that the stripper is probably a very nice girl (even when she's doing it) even though you are only looking at her **** and wishing you could taste that; as is every man in the joint... And if anyone is tasteless and sordid and unhealthy and wretched and unclean and disgusting, it's the men who go into those clubs.

Not the dancers.

They're only in it for the money. You can't expect them to enjoy the atmosphere.

Blake,

Funny comment. Yes, I think its safe to say there is some of that. Alcohol as well because the stuff is pushed. However, I found drug abuse and alcholism as pervasive in other industries as well such as restaurants, university, and government just to name a few, and it's embedded in the lifestyles of these other environments just as firmly. To say strip joints are unique in this is myopic.

I'm sorry. It would be a such a warm fuzzy world if what you claim were so. It's not.

There's two thing's you can rely on: ask a stripper why she strips, and she'll tell you for the money. And, she's lying wishing she was telling the truth.

Your comparisons of doctors and waitresses is also woefully misshapen. Especially as per doctors.

The great majority of dr's in this country come from already wealthy backgrounds, and by their nature are in a rare sphere of intelligence, so frankly, they could be pretty much doing what they liked when it comes to making money. To imply they school for 8 years, endure merciless hours, watch people die - all for money is just silly on its face.

As far as waitresses, yes, most make more money doing that than anything else they can qualify for, thereby making that vocation attractive. But as any waitress can tell you, it can be a very hard dollar to make and its rare to find a waitress who hasn't quit at least for a while for something else. Regardless of the money involved.

In fact, almost no one works in a particular field "just for the money" for more than a temporary time that is. Everybody's got their reasons, the right hours, enjoy co-workers, close to home, actually enjoy the job, lots of factors. And never does it come down exclusively to money for any of us. Let alone times 10.

The sad truth is, strippers strip almost exclusively as the result of a traumatic sexual experience in their past. Sometimes chronic.

After which, years later in most cases, their self esteem is in shambles and ripe to enter the profession which degrades them, there by fulfilling their torn image of themselves. The sexual attention derived from men being approving in their behaviour, tipping etc. helps, on some level anyway, to boost their self esteem at least superficially.

In the way that strippers are not lesbian by nature, they do seek sexual satisfaction and companionship with each other and other women in response to those same broken trust issues with men.

I applaud your efforts to reduce such a sad, and misunderstood national mental health issue with a cute 10 point bullet list. We all wish the victimization of thousands of women in our culture was so simple.

Regards
RH

Roy, my friend, you are reducing a very organic process into a clinical analysis. Some of what you say is correct, statistically and otherwise; but the human element - and the emotional content - is by far the most important consideration that brings a woman to such an environment; and that can't be put on a spreadsheet. There is no doubt that a dancer makes a choice to be a dancer. She does have other options. There may be ancillary reasons for that decision, such as molestation or other past abuse; and I agree that Electra's premise is somewhat simple and a bit transparent; but what would you expect, coming from there to here, where she is posting on OS and being frank about her feelings? She could include a few other reasons in the top ten; and she could have danced for a day and decided it's not such a grand idea after all. We always have a choice, even if we don't see or acknowledge it. However, the lure of easy money is a huge inducement to continue if she has the stomach for the work. My ex girlfriend, for instance, made $2000 per week as a dancer. She used the money to finance a really cool boutique, which is where I met her. I didn't know she was a dancer until she told me why she wasn't available five nights a week. She was nothing like a stripper. And yet that's what she did.

It was my blessing to honor her for who she was. I still do.

Roy, I'm glad for your comment. It's a very long comment, so I am going to be selective as to which of your points I respond.

I am well aware of the science that says, in effect, all women in the sex industry are victims of sexual abuse. To be honest, I might even partially agree. I would say, many but not all. However, it is a strange and terrible fact that sexual abuse is pervasive. Far too many women in the world are victims, to my mind. But I’ve met far more of these victims outside of the industry than within—that is my experience. It is a sad, sorry fact of humanity. One that is too taboos still in this professed open society of ours.

My point about doctors, onto which you laid so much vitriol, and waitresses was simply that THEY GET PAID. Simple. They work; they get paid. You wouldn’t think of holding this fact against your doctor or waitress; why should you hold it against your stripper?

That last point was waged at a voice I ran across a few days ago on OS, a voice critical of strippers because they are, in fact, only in it “for the money.” My point is: Yes, we are only in it for the money.

I love hashing this stuff out with anyone and everyone who feels inclined to jump in, and this is the sort of conversation I hope continues. But leave the vitriol of dirt from your feet at the door, please.

ElectraJones-
That wasn't vitriol...that was sarcasm. And you had me at a disadvantage, as I was unaware of the previous allusions in your post.

Regards,
RH

OK then sarcastic Roy. Pleasure.

A few comments:

1. Strippers are different by definition than doctors or waitresses. Strippers provide arousal; it's a non-tangible thing. You can tip a waitress for HOW she provides a service of delivering food. A stripper is providing herself as a service. It's different.

2. Of course it's for the money, though how they chose that professional FOR money is most likely tainted through self-esteem issues, sexual abuse, drug use, etc. Pretty much a no-brainer.

3. Why are people hostile? Yes, power is part of it, as is that strippers tend to break/bend sexuality taboos, and, as I stated, the goal of a stripper is to arouse, but not release tension. That brings up all sorts of messy psychology.

Just a few thoughts.

- Elliot

Damnation, need an edit function. "PROFESSION", not "Professional". Sorry.

Elliot,

The first assumption lodged within point #1 is that, as you say, strippers are “different by definition” because “the service she provides is herself.” But “different by definition” is the kind of language that has championed misogynistic notions for a long time now. As in “that kind” of woman…as opposed to what kind I would like to know? As opposed to the kind who marries a man for financial security?

Another problem with your point #1 is the assumption that “service she provides is herself.” What is the difference between this and the actress who disrobes on screen or on stage? How is the actress’ version of “selling herself” any different than the strippers? And, is she a victim? Should we therefore psychoanalyze her? or avoid these considerations altogether because they are so heinous? Let me remind you that not long ago women in the theatre were looked down upon because they were thought to be…well, sluts. Also, ballerinas. So has the “profession” changed? Have the women changed, or have our perceptions changed? Also, if the devious and corrupting nature of the profession is the cause of abuse, then what have you to say to our current ballerinas and actresses? And models. Is the lure any different just because the event is limited to film? How about how it is for that guy who takes the pic?

Thanks for your comment. You hit some of the faulty premises I wanted to explore.

Elektra,

I think you were reading a lot more pejorative content in my comments than I intended. I am not making judgments here, I’m simply providing some answers to the questions you posed.

To dive in further, an actress in a mainstream film disrobes in general as part of a plot (hopefully). For a stripper to disrobe IS the point. That’s the difference. There’s really no sugar-coating that.

Now, I do NOT look down upon strippers. Let’s get that straight. I have had friends who have danced; some in reputable clubs, some in not so reputable. I’ve talked histories with them and heard their stories. I don’t claim to know enough to judge; I only know what I’ve heard first-hand.

You also bring up a good point about models; models are prone to many of the same excesses and issues as strippers “traditionally” are. I’ve had friends who were models as well and heard THEIR stories. Some of them are just plain awful.

I do not pretend to be able to tar the whole profession with one brush. However, I think that it’s fair to acknowledge the rougher parts of the profession along with those that break the stereotype.

Best,

Elliot

Elliot,

So then, by your logic, a person who disrobes on the beach (a scene without a "plot") is a "different" sort of woman? one of "those" women?

I am not reading anything ill into your language. I am simply reading your language. The use (or misuse) of language is part of the problem.

Again, thank you. And thank you for stressing points you feel I had correct.

ElektraJones said:
"They work; they get paid. You wouldn’t think of holding this fact against your doctor or waitress; why should you hold it against your stripper?"

People sure as heck do hold it against drs that they expect remuneration for their services. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "You're just in it for the money!" - and I'm a resident who makes peanuts and my salary is totally unrelated to the number of patients I see, meds I prescribe, procedures I recommend, or whatever.

You hear that world? Dr. Pontificatrix says he needs to get PAID!!

Elektra,

Is a woman on a beach disrobing for money? I thought we were talking about the choice of career here...

- Elliot

So its not the disrobing that bothers you? A naked bather is fine so long as she's not paid? Therefore, stripping would be fine as long as she did it for free?

And don't try to squirm out of this by going blank on me...you understand.

I can't speak for women, but I will attempt to speak for the men. I believe the hostility comes from the fantasy being cheapend - one likes to think that the dancer is dancing for him on stage. That when she comes over to the table, sits down, and talks to him, it isn't just so he will buy a drink - she picked him out. When she takes him to the back for a lap dance, just for a short while, he can go in to a fantasyland of one-on-one intamacy with a desirable woman. It is the illusion of desire and it can be shattered by the thought of "just doing it for the money." The dancer is there for you, to please you, to desire you. It is a power thing. But it is also a big myth you buy into as soon as you enter the door.

Elektra,

Nothing of this "bothers me" at all - the way I look at it we're simply exploring the issue.

We both agree that strippers do it "for the money"; neither of us have a problem with that.

We both agree the hostility comes largely from power issues; I also add that it's societal taboo-breaking and the arousal without release that causes added tension and grumpiness on society's part. Actually, that was true for the actresses back when as well...they were seen as "temptresses"; so there's historical context that has influence on present-day strippers.

You seem hell-bent on putting "that kind of woman" into the argument; I don't see there being a "kind" per se; only a career choice. What brings people TO a career choice is another matter, but we're not discussing that.

- e.

Hey Elliot,

Sorry to be a while in response, but I got busy on another post.

But what I want to say is that our world is language. Conceptual domains or frameworks are often unexamined despite our use of them.

Hope you have a nice holiday or break or whatever you have.
EJ

Why do people have paying jobs? For the sake of this discussion let's stipulate 'for the money' as you assert. But how do people decide which job they will take? Doctor, waitress, stripper, what's the difference? Why would a person choose one over the other?

Why did you?

I am male, and extremely stripper-positive (check my blog). So I ask not to be combative, rather to encourage. I ask because you obviously have some things to say about this, and I hope you will write more. Dig deeper, please.

And I agree, it is always about power.

Rick,

There is no going "deeper." That was my point and the wonderful fact about the stripclub business--everything you need to know about it is right in front of you.

The first thing a guy wants to do when he gets a stripper to sit down for a minute next to him is dig a little deeper. "What's your REAL name?" 9 times out of 10 he will ask. Maybe she uses a real name maybe not (I did... sometimes).

And the reasons for stripping are no different than reasons for doing anything else in this world. Why do people become garbage collectors, for instance? Why do that when there are things they can do for so much more money.

Well, perhaps this person thought he/she was going to collect garbage thru college--or just until he/she saved up for that first apartment, etc. See what I mean?

We might as easily be talking about law, retail, food services or any of the multitude of industries in the US.

But I thank you for the encouragement to write more about this stuff. There is much more I have to say.

I think money is always number one, but I would imagine some are insecure and use it as validation of their attractiveness. IE they used to be chunky, have braces, and are now desired, you coul even go into the prevalence of abuse in childhood. But in general, yeah, money. Why do people do any job?

I got into it for the money, used the cash flow to build assets that would replace my dancing income, I do it now for the contacts for my travel company. Where else am I going to get the personal cell phone number of corporate CEOS and Presidents whose secretaries would ordinarily ignore my cold sales call...

whoever wrote this is a dum ass, straight up. whoever feels like stripping is a real job and feels like strippers do it for more then just the money, come the hell on. women degrade themselves, stoop to low levels, have low self esteem and the ones that they don't, are bullshiting, or in massive denial. stripping is nasty, barely any stripper JUST STRIPS, there's a lot more involved. There's p.i.m.p's theres sexual favors, sex and drugs, like wake up and smell the coffee, atleast waitresses and doctors have REAL JOBS. pleasing men and there sick twisted fascination with ass naked women shakin pussy in there face is not something to hold your head high about. most strippers have kids and i don't think any kid wants to go through something like that. I'm sure kids aren't proud to say yah mommy's a stripper. strippers get so caught up with the money, and addicted to it really, because to go back to a regular job after making such easy money is hard. living a regular life and not having lots of money to blow after payin all ur bills is hard.