Eljekar

Eljekar
Birthday
June 12
Bio
Born in The Netherlands. Living in Italy. Fascinated (and bewildered) by the melting pot of American people, who came as master from "old-Europe" (Rumsfeld) to become a slave of the American Dream "... transformed by the act of immigration into the victim of a demon that drove him away from his ancient home to this strange new land ..." (Joseph Papaleo)

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MAY 22, 2012 9:28AM

the sound of answered prayers

Rate: 13 Flag

 

Jonathan Wolfman quoted Socrates on the younger generation and wondered:

Of whom/of what does this say most...
...teens,
we
...

I answered with

everyone's tossing for change
yet mourns it day after day
yearning for that which he will see
wishing back what once was seen....

the second stanza of a Dutch Hymn, titled Rest my soul, very popular among believers.

I gave it a second thought, and I think the question deserves an independent post.

For starters, the invention of our Jewish Christian roots, a good thirty, forty years ago, when everyone told us of our Jewish Christian roots, as we told everyone of them: that heritage, to which we likely and so eagerly seem to concede these days - a bit different from our Greek Cultural roots.
Our great example is the relationship between the Father and the Son. There is an important difference in their approach to the world of the sinners, and we are happy with the progress of the views of the Son.
If it was for God, we all would feel his punishment: hell's destruction.
It is because of his Son that some of us ... not everyone, not me Jonathan ... that some of us will be redeemed.

I do not know if Open Salon is mirroring leftish America, but we all want a bit progress, isn't it?
Well, praying for progress will bring change.
And change will bring unrest.
To quote the highly regarded literature of the Psalms:
Why art thou cast down, O my soul
and why art thou disquieted within me?

So, the tribes of Jacob wanted to leave Egypt in change for freedom. After a lot of war during years that fairly outnumbered the 40 years in the desert, they have settled in Palestine, to sing their psalms. But the Tehillim speaks mostly of uneasy feelings, to say the least.
Why art thou cast down, O my soul is repeated three times in the psalms 42/43 which you can consider to be one.
And still to hear: the echo of the last lines of psalm 25
Redeem Israel, O God
out of all his troubles

As William Hamilton, the Scottish philosopher, said of mankind: they floundered on from blunder to blunder.

I'm thinking of two great American movies, The Graduate and Guess who's coming to dinner. Movies from the sixties, mirroring the changes that took place in that era.
We loved these stories, didn't we? And not only because of the intrinsic quality, which was reflected in the award nominations.
You witnessed the changes.
You believed in change!
But the pain is visible and touchable.

James M. E., commenting Jonathan, spoke of Socrates executed for corrupting the youth.
No James, the story is quite different - you know there's a distance between history and history writing. It was Bart Ehrman, your fellow American, who teaches us about the stories made up around Jesus - and he sighed his fate of being a biblical exegete: why is no one ever complaining about the corruption of the texts of Plato?

And indeed, it's the same problem with Socrates.
Like the disciples of Jesus made up a lot of stories, Socrates' disciples didn't want the remembrance of Socrates being smeared with what could be easily explained as suicide. And they invented the story of this trial and sentence.
But the story of Socrates' death is a bit different; see the (apocryphal) account of his death, told by another of his followers.

It was a sunny day and Socrates left his house to have another chat with the people in the town.
His wife, Xanthippe, standing in the door opening, shouted at him (as always):
Can't you help me with the gardening?
Or do some other decent work?
Why is it always on me to clean the shit up?

Her voice as shrill as a dentist's drill.

[
well, actually there were no dental drills in the Greece of Socrates, and certainly not the shrill ones; must be corruption of the text, introduced by a 19th-century copyist; but sure he must have felt it this way ...
]

Most of the time Socrates was amused.
Not this time - probably being hunted by bad dreams of the night before.
So he turned on his way and shouted (which he never did):
Get out of my way, woman.
Leave immediate my house and don't dare to return.
But she didn't.
Instead of this she shouted again:
O no, we all have to bear our cross.
You have to drain to the lees.
Ad fundum.

[
actually, it's a bit early for those days to speak of bearing ones cross or ad fundum, must be text corruption caused by a 4th-century copyist ...
]

And she smashed the door in his face.

And there goes Socrates, those last words echoing You have to drink to the last drop.
And he is thinking of his happy youth and the change that came with Xanthippe.
And he becomes very depressed and before the end of the day he has made up his mind.
So he gave his last lecture to the youth of Athens about the difference between figurative speech and literal sense and, to depict the thing realistically, he filled a teacup with poison and drank it to the last drop.

The moral: if you want some change: don't spoil it with nostalgia.

 

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Interesting analysis.
I don't see the harm in a little nostalgia, Eljekar, so long as it doesn't get in the way of improving humankind to better survive, by subduing the selfish shortsightedness that unrestrained will surely destroy the species, if not the planet itself.
Very interesting and as to actual history and the processes that form the written overlays, see John Dominic Crossan, "The Historical Jesus".

rated.
Change is what it is and change is invariable derivative, progress isn't linear or exponential. Social change and progress are four dimensional spirals, eddies in the waves of time, born out of the past with aspirations for the future yet inextricable intertwined with the variations of the natural world and all of the conflict of the nature of human culture.

Those who look to the past are often blinded by nostalgia, but those who ignore or dismiss the past very often, without malice or intention, end up repeating it, learning nothing from their mistakes and paying the price... Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan and "Time just keeps on drifting, drifting into the future..."
Interesting take. Nostalgia is history. If you don't learn from history, well, there I go repeating myself again!
We may never know exactly all that occurred when Socrates' life ended.
Nor can we know all that is missing from either Old or New Testaments.
WIth a friend, I am currently reading the Bible in its entirety, in chronological order, so I can better understand it and its historical significance to us all. There are things missing apparent here and there, whole portions of stories either lost, "edited" or never retold through written means. Characters suddenly appear and disappear, or are referenced almost as if one should know who they are supposed to have been.
Anyone knowing ow to read will tell you even written history can be a very sketchy resource. And eyewitness accounts may vary from person to person, as every reporter knows.
Fact is fact, yet retelling upsets every account.
Even so, when a dear friend tells one of his experiences in a Nazi death camp, and you see it in his body language, his facial expression, and hear it referenced wit care only once in a while, one learns that history, yes, is repeatable. This same wise friend, just before he passed, said we now have a country which is no longer a free democracy, much less a free republic. He said it was a Fascists state, and he could not bear to see his beloved adopted America change so drastically and for the worse.
He could speak 5 languages, and was very well read, ethically conscious, and aware.
I'll recall his mission: to give his best to this world and allow everybody their dignity.
History did repeat itself. It will as long as we turn away from what was done before and ignore the signs.
Blessings with Peace
While I made a comment on SheilaTGTG55's post last week about Socrates and youth (before Jon's Sunday post), it's actually thought the mayor of Amsterdam might have been the one who gave this attribution to Socrates:
"This wisdom from the grave was subsequently reported in the New York
Times and reprinted widely. After Malcolm Forbes included Socrates's
[sic] words in a Forbes magazine editorial entitled 'Youth,' his
research staff went crazy trying to prove their authenticity. They
contacted a wide range of librarians, classicists, and other experts
on Socrates. None knew of any source for the passage. The researchers
finally called Amsterdam's mayor, Gijsbert van Hall. Van Hall said
he'd seen the lines by Socrates in a Dutch book whose title he could
not recall. There the search ended. 'We suspect,' Forbes's [sic]
researchers concluded, '. . . that Socrates never did make those
cracks about Athenian youth.'..."

I like this quote I read somewhere:
"History is not what happened, history is what was written down."
I'll enjoy my nostalgia......and damn the consequences...
real or imagined..
Xanthippe sounds to me like she is the one not getting a fair hearing from history!
Sheila, thanks for the compliment.

Jonathan, thanks also, it was your post who made this analysis possible.

Poor Woman, thanks for the blessings
Scanner, thanks, but I think I feel it a bit the other way: history can become nostalgia. And you know: learning from history is for the youngsters, we have already made our mistakes.
ccdarling, you are absolutely right. I've started thinking to invent a story about her. But you should do so: I'm sure you are far more better equipped than I am ... and language is not the only problem.
thank u for correcting me, i never believed the socrates story anyway.

i happen to be indifferent about the flesh and blood reality
of a Socrates or a Jesus or a Lao Tzu or
whomever.

I am sick to death of reading about the manic editing of
our so called saviors.

I blame them! Just pick up a pen and papyrus and write.


.............

Nostalgia is death. So is sentimentality. So is anything
abstract you hold onto,
of the mind
...

Socratic Method is what i care about.
The pretending to accept the others' OPINION
(which to Plato was a sin , to opine)
and then just keep asking them why, how,
what do you mean,
what are you saying?


this is the reduction to the zero state,
which i bet jesus could do pretty well too...

where you got no idea what the f. you are talking about,
or defending, for you are
destroyed!

And herein we are. We need that next word...
after the utter decimation of the thousand thousand thoughts
we got , borrowed, from parents or books or "in groups"...


a vulnerable state indeed.

........................

those eastern friends of ours say , empty that mind!
let it be a placid pond, reflecting everything,
holding nothing...

i agree.

Then! throw some dynamite in the pond.
Blow up all the critters that are down below, lets see what we got.
I wanna see
from my friend or interlocutor
or conversationpal
what now dead things
were once the creatures that moved this mind of mine.

i know nothing. socrates.
Steel Breeze, I have not the slightest intention to take it away from you. It's your choice, it's your freedom. No value judgement about that.
Chicken Mãâàn, you are right. Perhaps we can say that you are talking about prenostalgia, which is a good guard for helter-skelter acting, and I'm talking of postnostalgia which is the enemy of good statesmanship?
jmac1949, thanks for the comment. Perhaps for you the same as for Chicken M.: prenostalgia and postnostalgia - but I'm in desperate need for a second thought on your comment.
Just Thinking, how nice to learn something about my fellow Dutchmen from an American. But I understand your mind is all over the map, and that's fine with me. And you are right: we have to blame the messenger, especially those who bring us the last words of dying men.
Thanks.
eljekar: I do spend most of my working hours in Central Europe, 10,000--3000-ish BC.
I read any book, anywhere, for fun.
Makes for strange tidbits of knowledge.
...yes, and that scattered mind of mine all over the map...
Glad to find you!
: )
Well, the Father/Son thing is way more about Christianity than Judaism.

The problem with nostalgia is not necessarily just the editing, it's the selectivity of memory - or at least those bits of memory that are recounted in its cause. There are a lot of Americans who yearn for the simplicity of the 1950's, when there seemed to be societal norms that were more universally accepted. If, however, you were ambitious and female, it wasn't such a great time, and if you were Black it was a terrible time. Progress is progress for a reason; making some people think the world has gone to hell in a handbasket is the price of very real improvements. Nostalgia entails a failure to remember what we improved from.

I like what James Emmerling said here. What's important about Socrates, Plato, or Jesus for that matter is not the facts of their lives but the nature of their contributions. It might have to do with a Jewish approach to scripture, but our arguments about what scripture is about have less to do with historical accuracy and more to do with conclusions drawn in terms of guidelines for conduct. I don't need to know how Socrates actually died; that's more idle curiosity than anything else. His big lessons aren't from his death, and it is his big lessons that make him important.
From Socrates I have learned the "Only one thing I know,that I know nothing" And from Jesus that "Life is Love and Love is Life"
Thank you Eljekar for your great work..Well,I am guessing nostalgia does reminds me that something is wrong with my nowdays life.Ρast is an escaρe....Rated with many thank you for sharing!!!!
Nostalgia is simultaneously; for the dreamer who wants nothing to do with change and for the dreamer who wants everything to change. Yet! As in all things, there is truth and reality hidden somewhere between the nostalgia of thoughts and words.

Kosher and James said it best; one man’s nostalgia can be another’s nightmare. We cannot think of the words as gospel, for the gospel is not the words themselves, but the often veiled truths that lie hidden in those words – the intentions of the teachers.

Words themselves are meaningless if we fail to hear the message they were intended to convey.
good post, btw :-)
(sorry guys, sleeping time in Europe)

Boomer Bob, thanks for the compliment.
koshersalaami, thanks also.

And thanks for your thoughts.

It's not only nostalgia that's spoiling nowadays life. It seems to me that a lot of people are made from the stuff "once a whiner always a whiner".

It's true: words and deeds are important, not the biography.
But the word became flesh, had to become flesh to be heard.
And it's easy to listen to dead men.

Can we hear the voices, crying in the wilderness?
There are a lot of examples that we start cursing the flesh.
STAHTI STAHTI, thanks for your compliments.

"Past is an escape ..." Don't tell Lot's wife. Well, true or not true, it's hinting at something like a deer in the headlights.

Okay, now you have Eljekar ... ahem, sorry ...(just kiddin) we have Open Salon, a nice place to share our thoughts.
And that's fine with me.
jmac1949,

"... intertwined with [...] all of the conflict of the nature of human culture."

and

"Time just keeps on drifting, drifting into the future..."

It seems that in this depiction there's no space for nostalgia, neither pre nor post.
Feeling nostalgia ... and there's no reason?!

Like God, mankind moves in a mysterious way.
Interesting piece, El. I think you could probably do with some more "tightening" up -- I sort of had to feel my way through your prose a few times. That said, I still enjoyed it. It's clear English is not your native tongue (or at least that's my impression from reading certain tactical grammatical errors which translate to my mind a different set of language rules) and for all that, I am sure your English is tons better than any of my German, Italian, Spanish or French or the smattering of Russian, Japanese and Finn I picked up here and there -- and I never left the US!

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Faith or Answered Prayers, though. I didn't quite put those Lego blocks together with your piece.

In any case, well worth reading all the way 'round, irrespective of my mentioned points. Thoughtful and a bit thought provoking, too.

--r--
dunniteowl, thanks for the kind compliments

here we say: it doesn't matter if your English is worse, as long as your Scottish is okay
One of the most disturbing quotations that keeps popping up is Santayana's observation that those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.
As matter of fact, a good many of human actions and formal institutions are based on repetition of tremendous foolishnesses because they are remembered, are traditional and accepted. Einstein was closer to the truth when he indicated that those who do the same things over and over expecting different results are insane. Insofar as I can see, to a very large extent, humanity is insane.
perhaps Jan,

Perhaps you (and Einstein with his infinite of stupidity) are right.
It is an opinion and a second opinion.
Still, it is mankind speaking about mankind.

I prefer an unbiased, an objective observation.
As long as there isn't I prefer to think that there are people who think (a)and that there are people who think they think (b), which is by definition a clumsy observation, so I should stop now ...

... allora,
if set A consists of a and set B consists of b
then and only then
A and B are disjoint (also by definition).

Thanks anyway for your comment.
There is no denial that there are people who think. It becomes a problem when the assumption is made that all thinking is the same and that those who have their hands on the levers of power are driven by the same motivations and considerations as those who understand causes and consequences. The acquisition of power itself is a strong factor in the quality of thought employed thereafter and that is a critical point.