In my high schol work, a sophomore who trusted me told me that she planned to work as a dancer and prostitute after school because she would make good money. I did not swallow my teeth. A friend in the biz told me that the girls paid $65 to have one song played, and their pay was whatever tips they made. Low overhead and employee enthusiasm!

So I told her that, in the sex industry, women are the product and men make the profits. She did not like that.

I steered her into a six-week program to wrap sterile surgical packs that paid well and would afford her a longer career than the wasting of her youth and beauty on old men.

You pass over human trafficking too lightly which ignores the fact that, globally, most persons in this business did not choose it. Slavery--of women, girls and boys-- is much bigger than it was during the great triangle days out of Africa.

Sorry, cannot support this for young women.

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o'stephanie - I think that you have glossed over the fact that sex work takes a variety of forms. Is it a good choice for every person, of course not, but I don't get the feeling that you've actually read my post based on the assumptions that you lay out in your comment.

But is it possible for a woman to come through the experience of being a sex worker unscathed?

I only know one person who went into this vocation. She was one of the most attractive and popular girls in my high school. After graduation, she worked at a strip club for a few months. She met and began to party with a faster crowd, started to use drugs, got into prostitution for more money to use for more and harder drugs, got arrested a couple dozen times (literally), had two kids and lost custody of them. She was interviewed in the newspaper two years ago as part of an article on a drug and alcohol rehab program for prostitutes, and she revealed she was raped while pregnant with baby #2 and seeking crack in a crack house. So, my n = 1, but it's a bad one.

@buckeydoc - Is it possible? Well, I'm currently a sex worker (phone sex operator) and it is one of the best jobs (aside from teaching) that I have ever had. I know investment bankers and fast food employees that became drug addicts, un-wed mothers, or rape survivors also.

If you read the post you would see that I don't think that pointing out problems in the industry means that the industry shouldn't exist, just that problems need to be corrected.

I agree that anyone could be raped or become drug-addicted, but it seems from my outside position that women in sex work are more often victimized than those in other professions. Perhaps a strict brothel setting with security would make a difference, at least in the violence prevention aspect. Phone or internet sex work is probably not as dangerous, since you wouldn't be going somewhere alone with a man who might have evil intentions and you wouldn't risk disease exposure.

I enjoyed your post. You are unfortunately right that we will never rid the world of all sex work and I think that that is a terribly sad reality.

There are so many awful, well documented problems within the sex industry, but it is the existence of the always growing industry that reflects our sickened society.

If you're turned off by the industry as much as I am, volunteer to help victims. Guide young people like O'Stephanie. You may even want to boycott it all-- prostitution, porn, strip clubs, phone lines, etc. I subscribe to the latter, easier tactic, but I should really do more in other areas.
(I do buy condoms though...)

A succinct and thoughtful post!

In my undergrad days I read some Dworkin and did an independent research project that dealt with rape and human trafficking during the civil strife in the former Yugoslavia. As a feminist, I blamed pornography and the existence of prostitutions as indicators--and perhaps even the causes--of the misogynist culture that engaged in mass rape. I was 20 years old--I thought I had it all figured out. I'm now older, still identify as a feminist, but don't think that way at all.

Just because there is some disturbing pornography that victimizes women and children and encourages further abuse, it doesn't mean all depictions of sex and nudity are unhealthy. Quite the opposite! The same can be said of sex work.

Sex trafficking is a growing and alarming problem. Denigrating and making sex work illegal does nothing to really solve the sex trafficking problem though. Can't we acknowledge that in a free society and with human sexuality being a complex and strong force that sex work can have its place?

I've never utilized a sex worker's services and am unlikely to ever do so. I personally think strippers are gross. But I don't see the big deal that others provide or use those services.

If we as a society were a little more open minded, we could allow sex work to occur in a safe and regulated environment. Perish the thought!

@Skeptic Turtle - Thanks for your comment. I think that equating sex-trafficking with voluntary sex work is like equating kidnapping with day care services. Clearly, someone that does not consent in *any* sexual or work interaction is the victim of a heinous crime. Unfortunately, sex worker rights activists are often boxed into defending all sorts of things that aren't in their real purview.

Even the most well-meaning liberals can fall into a victim-blaming mentality when it comes to sexuality and crimes related to sex. "If she didn't have the job, she wouldn't have been raped" isn't too far away from saying "if she didn't wear that dress, she wouldn't have been raped."

Hopefully a dialogue will be opened on a variety of topics related to sexuality here on Open Salon ;)

Ellie,

I look forward to your being around.

One interest I have is sexuality or intimacy in people with disabilities. We have many vets returning from war with injuries, so we are going to have a young population who will want full lives. This will be something I will be investigating in grad school, so look forward to communicating further.

Thanks for posting!

Stephanie

Prostitution or sex work should be legal. The ignorance surrounding it amazes me.

You have an interesting perspective and I look forward to your future post.

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As a sex-positivist, I cannot say strongly enough that sex work should be legal, and regulated. Even the idea that prostitution is a "victimless crime" I find preposterous. There are certainly victims, but mostly because of the puritanical condemnation of the activity as a whole. If sex workers were allowed, as they are in many European countries, to freely advertise, market themselves, unionize, have benefits and regular medical examinations and licensure, the "criminal" element of sex work would largely disappear.

Thanks for the post.

Whenever people point to the ugliness surrounding an illegal industry it is helpful to ask what part of the ugliness can be attributed to the industry itself and what part to its illegality.

By no means to I believe that there is no ugliness inherent in sex work. Probably there is some that will not be eradicated by legalizing it.

I do think a large part of the problems of sex work do relate to its illegality and that is why I think it should be legalized. I am also pushed in that direction by my simple acknowledgement that eradication or even dampening the sex trade through laws criminalizing it are doomed to failure. Simply viewing reality indicates this clearly enough.

I think sex work should be legal. But I also think we need to address the emotional and psychological issues swirling around sex work - things that have *nothing at all to do* with danger, abuse or physical victimization. Until everyone who believes that sex work is fine and good and ok and should be legal can unblinkingly, unhesitatingly say they would support their mother, daughter and/or sister being a sex worker, then we have a problem with the sex industry. To say "I support it, but don't want any woman in MY family in it" is to basically say "me and mine can do better - - other women can be in the sex trade, let's victimize them with our judgements and our disdain, but never the women in my family. they're too good for that."

If there is nothing wrong with sex work, then there is nothing wrong with anyone who engages in it. We should all be able to sit at a dinner party and not bat an eye when the woman our best friend brought as his date answers the question And what do you do? with "I'm a sex worker." The fact that most people - and especially, it seems, men who frequent strip clubs and prostitutes 0 wouldn't be comfortable if their son brought home a stripper as his fiancee, or that their daughter takes a job as a phone sex operator, says that we have a really long way to go to remove the societal victimization we place on sex workers. Sex workers deserve a regulated environment, and the respect of their patrons and the society that supports these patrons. If we can't provide that, then we are admitting that what is 'wrong' with sex work is, in fact, what is 'wrong' with us and how we see women.

First a comment for O'Stephanie. You need to go and watch the movie Born on the 4th of July. In the movie soldiers with injuries are in Mexico using the services of sex workers. If you look, I think you will find that wounded and disfigured soldiers will use lots of sex workers. Why, because not a lot of young ladies who look like you are going to have sex with men with colostomy bags and mangled bodies. I'm not saying you, but most. Would you consider it?

Now I know I'm going to take it in the shorts for this one. I use sex workers. I'm a truck driver and I'm gone for long periods of time. There are nights when a sleeper-leaper will knock on my door wanting to know if I “want company”. Sometimes they get lucky and I do.

It's a simple transaction, kind of like ordering in a restaurant. I place an order, she takes care of it and I pay the bill. Everybody has a job. You may not like the one she does, but we don't live her life.

I can say that I've never found one that showed any signs of physical abuse. I've never noticed a pimp or others hanging around waiting on her. Are they addicted to drugs and alcohol? Could be. I've never seen one, even though I know they are there, that is obviously high, has speed bumps, or is tweaking. Most are trying to earn a living. A lot you can tell have had children. Some will even tell you that they do. They are saying how sorry their body looks like it does that they have a baby at home.

But what kind of living is a sleeper-leaper making? Well let's see. You work for a company in an office and you are making $10 per hour, working 8 hours per day. You have to pay day care, health insurance and lunch. You make $80 less expenses.

A sleeper-leaper get $30 and works about 20 minutes for it. She is gone from home an hour or two and makes $90. But wait, there's more. She doesn't pay taxes, isn't gone long enough to need lunch, the taxpayer picks up her health care and day care shouldn't be much. She has no reportable income so the Salvation Army will do her childcare. But don't stop now, there's more. Because she has little to no income at tax time those who believe we should use the tax code for income redistribution will send her a check in the mail.

While there are exceptions to every rule and there are bad people in this world doing bad things there are a few things that I've noticed about sex workers.

First they are nice people doing a job just like the rest of us. You may not want to do it but watch Dirty Jobs, I wouldn't do most of them either.

Secondly, you find a few every now and then. Where the biggest concentration seems to be is in Milford, CT. Could somebody explain that to me?

Eh... in one of my prospective and intermittant periods of unemployment- when my current employer (a classical CD music vendor where I was the cataloge librarian) had given notice to all the local employees that their term of employment was shortly to come to an end, I did briefly consider the prospect of employment by a phone-sex line. Well, it was really more of a black joke between myself and one of the other female employees. When all else failed, we agreed - we could always answer the ads for phone-sex work. Work from home, paid rather well, including health benefits- a good deal, all things considered. The stumbling point for us was - that neither of us could talk dirty without cracking up, even with a script. (really, if you have a script, you can turn off your mind and just go through the script!) And the other thing was - I was afraid I would really begin to despise men, after a bit. I would begin to fell contemptious of them, knowing how easily some of them were fooled and satisfied, and cozened into spending all sorts of money for not very much at all.
I like men, in general - having spent quite a lot of my adult life among them. I like them, and would like to think well of them, in general - and that sort of a job would lead me among men that I could not think very much of at all... except as perverts and marks to extract a couple of dollars from.

My favorite argument is that it's demeaning to women. Okay, and making $5 an hour with a paper hat isn't? If someone with the intelligence of whole grain cereal can make $1,000 a night dancing, more power to them. As long as they have the right ro refuse anyones business I don't see the problem.

"So, yes, I desperately abhor the abuse and mistreatment of sex workers. I loath the deeply disturbing and violent treatment that sex workers face. As a separate issue I am, of course, concerned about the trafficking of human beings or the exploitation and rape of children that cannot consent to entering the sex trade. I can see all of these things and I can still say that sex work should exist and can be healthy."

Where is the "healthy" in that morass?

It's in your bubble world, I suspect.

What sort of "(r)evolution" do you envision, considering you're generally dealing with a pretty base crowd.

Intellectualize to your heart's content, but the reality is that sex work begs "the voices of women that have experienced pain or violence " along with the perpetrators of said pain and violence, not to mention the Ted Bundys of this world.

Nice try. But no. The inherent problems can not be corrected.

And P.S.: The collateral damage (and you've only addressed the tip of the iceberg) has nothing to do with judment.

...oooops, missed the "g" spot in that last word.

"Judgment"

I read comments here and this is what I see: One side (the original post and Ellie's subsequent comments) presents arguments that are nuanced, reasoned, and at what I can only imagine to be serious pains to keep it civil.

The other side? Strident, no nuance, no admission that the same temporal continuum can have very different "physics" for different people, not even a willingness to differentiate between different kinds of sex work, like those involving actual body parts in contact and infinitely greater health risk, and those that don't. Only clear simple answers and much less willingness to go around throwing words.

Kinda like listening to a certain couple of Senators debate. I know which approach I find more convincing.

Sorry, should read "much less willingness to REFRAIN FROM throwing words around".

I had to come back to this post and apologize for saying "bubble world". I should have been more careful and I feel badly for appearing to be a woman who doesn't support her sisters. What I was trying to say was that I think it's difficult to see beyond our own interests, especially when we're so passionate about our issues.

I agree that you have presented a thoughtful argument, but I don't feel that it fits the problem squarely.

I don't think it would be possible to "dismantle" this industry, so we can rule that option out. Ideally, it would be legalized and regulated - but I don't see that happening either. Whose money would pay for that? Taxpayers? And who's to say that if it were legalized and regulated in North America, that that would solve the world's human trafficking problem, or the pervasive drug problems that seem to go hand in hand with this industry.

I say we devote resources to social programs, educational programs, women's resource/reintegration centres in order to empower those who want to make another choice.

The idea that there are women in this industry (in whichever capacity they've chosen), who've made an autonomous decision and continue to enjoy pleasant personal experiences is truly lovely. I wish it were the norm.

"The idea that there are women in this industry (in whichever capacity they've chosen), who've made an autonomous decision and continue to enjoy pleasant personal experiences is truly lovely. I wish it were the norm."

This sentiment I can totally get behind. It should be somewhere on every decent person's agenda.

@RickyB: I can only assume you're being sarcastic in your last comment, but in this medium, sarcasm really doesn't read. At any rate, statements like "It should be somewhere on every decent person's agenda" are entirely loaded.

It's very easy to sit in the comfort of a middle-class living room and pass judgment on women (and men) who have chosen the sex industry. Many of the people who wind up in the sex industry have already been victimized by generational poverty, violence or drugs, and they see the (relatively) easy money of sex work as a way out.

Case in point: A pretty girl living in a horrendous ghetto sees an opportunity to make $300-$400 a night as a stripper— or even as a prostitute, let's say. If she's able to keep her head, not get into drugs, use protection when she has sex, keep herself in shape, get sleep, pay her bills and put some money away, then her sex job is really no different than any other enterprise she may undertake— she's just using her innate abilities to make money the way we all do. She can work as long as her looks hold up, and when she's older, she can figure out what comes next. Who are we to stop her from bettering herself while she's young? If society at large didn't condemn sex work with its holier-than-thou false prudery, she would likely view her profession as just another dead-end, albeit well-paying job. Many such jobs exist. People engage in these activities when they're young and attractive: servers, flight attendants, athletes, models, resort entertainers, etc.

@Sandra Miller: Absolutely. The societal shame of sexuality is pervasive. Sex-positivism advocates that we should be able to recognize sexuality as a fundamental part of our lives, and talk about it the way we do our religious beliefs, food preferences, jobs, etc.

In this context, you make a spot-on observation that, in a sex-positive world, there would be no stigma at all in sex work. I hope we get here.

I would agree that regulations within the sex industry are necessary to make it safer. If you were genuinely trying to help someone have a pleasant working environment, you would look for ways to change the environment, not call on them to quit their job. Can we recognize the futility of asking people to quit something (anything?) if they've deemed it worth the risk?

This is like the argument I have with my dad about legalizing pot. At what age is it legal? And just what about it should be legal? Should sex workers have a degree? I'd feel better knowing they were educated in psychology, human sexuality, biology and physical therapy, but I don't think that's going to happen.

I don't think phone sex is an equal experience to street walking or engaging physically with someone. That phone protects you in more ways than one.

I sincerely believe that even if sex work were legal, there'd still be slaves in the trade. Look at the garment industry - legal, yet there are people sewing to free their families.

Personally, I don't think anyone should have to pay for sex, so that right there would get rid of the industry.

Thomas - you appear to have misread me. I don't think sex work is any less dignified than a whole lot of legal, lucrative and prestigious jobs. Furthermore, lets just say that I relate to the fact that in ancient Hebrew, the word for "whore" was of the same root as "holy". Nuff said? :-)

All I meant was that we should all hope that every single person in the sex industry is someone "who've made an autonomous decision and continue to enjoy pleasant personal experiences" as Karin put it, with the first part being more imperative than the second.

The girl from the ghetto may not have many choices for a decent wage except for this, but that's not what I mean by autonomous. I mean she isn't being physically or otherwise coerced (by someone or someones in specific, as opposed to "by the harsh realities of her life").

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm betting that's a phrasing you too agree with, yes? I don't think recognizing the abuses and wanting them gone is in any way sex-negative or prudish or disparaging to women who freely engage in it. Nor do I think that the abuses are in any way an excuse for stupid, restrictive or condescending behavior towards legit operators.

There are two points I'd make about the sex industry:

One - there is, always has been, and always will be a market for it. It will primarily be men buying the services (of some sort) of women. BTW, is it considered "sex industry" when a roomful of women pay money to grope the Chippndales when they perform? Or the male strippers at the bridal shower? I digressed, it is a fact of life that not all men can meet their biological needs within the confines of a monogamous relationship for 1000 different reasons. The sex industry would not exist without the mass market for it, and men (and women) who consume are not necessarily "bad".

Two - the universe of women is as diverse as th universe of men. There are plenty of women who make a living in the sex industry out of pure free will and choice. Of course, there are many who are not there out of pure free will too. When they are not, there should be social services to help them (overcome their drug addiction; or obtain an education for something they'd rather do; supply housing and assistance; etc.) I do belive legalization and regualtion, ala the Stae of Nevada, would serve both men's and women's needs better.

I don't think the feminist proclamation that all porn, sex industry work, prostitution is bad is helpful to anyone. Outlawing it to rid the country of immorality will never work either.

P.S. How many women are living lives of quiet desperation because they are married to, and financially dependent on, men who treat them like indentured servants ? How is that different from enforced sexual slavery if she has no money and ni skills to break free of the misery?

Marcelle, that's a fine sentiment, and please don't take this the wrong way, but if that's how you feel - do you occasionally endeavor to improve the situation by making some random unattractive nerd with poor social skills happy? :-)

Puh-leaze! I AM the nerd!

So? Find a fellow nerd and help them! :P

"I think that their experiences provide a backdrop for an important change and (r)evolution, not for a dismantling of an eternal system."

The problem is that, as of yet, nobody has come up with a change or revolution that significantly impacts the vast negatives of the sex work industry. Widespread legalization has not curtailed sex slavery and all the other nastiness involved in the sex trade. The only approach that seems to work is arresting those who purchase sex, rather than those who provide it. Both criminalize sex-for-profit, but the former punishes those who are extremely unlikely to have been coerced.

@Thomas Horton: It seems almost willfully naïve to suggest that if we would only get rid of prudery, sex work would become another low wage job. Most people with any kind of self-esteem don't want to have sex with random strangers. Teens raised in "sex-positive" homes aren't randomly promiscuous: they are likely to pick their parters carefully and have fewer of them. Blaming prudery for the taboo against sex work denies the complicated relationship that all societies have with sex and the complicated emotional relationship most people have with sex.

I think if there weren't sex workers, some people would never get to have sex at all. So I suppose it's necessary (assuming sex is a necessity).

Trying to imagine myself enjoying sex that I have paid for is like trying to imagine myself enjoying "controlled drinking." If I'm controlling it, I'm not enjoying it, and if I'm enjoying it, I'm not controlling it. Same with sex. If I'm paying for it (controlling it), I'm not gonna be enjoying it.

Having many friends and acquaintances who are prostitutes and/or "dancers," I think there's something about the work that is inherently damaging to the women (and certainly to the children, and maybe to the men) who perform it, based on their own testimony, their tears, their self-medicating, their warped lives. I think it would take a very healthy, strong, and super-well-adjusted woman to do this work and escape undamaged. I don't think there are too many of them around. There are probably some, but not enough to fill the demand.

There's an old saying, "Every woman's sitting on a gold mine." I guess the thinking behind that saying assumes that any women can always sell herself if times get really tough. As long as you've got the equipment, why not rent it out? The problem is that the equipment comes attached to the heart, mind, soul and life of the woman doing the selling. Most of the hookers I know are like most of the smokers I know; they wish they'd never started.

And they find it hard to stop.

@Helen
I always find it amazing how run-of-the-mill liberals suddenly become raging Marxists when the labor at hand is sex work. Suddenly, the idea of using a talent, skill, or bodily force is the most degrading of all things. I'm sure there are people in coal mines and steel mills that regret "selling their bodies" but they are still happy to bring home a paycheck.

The occupational hazards related to sex work are so obvious that they don't even need to be listed but it seems that you (like others) missed the point of the post. The occupational hazards aren't a reason that sex work is bad they are a reason that those hazards should be rectified. Further, you'll find it useful to consider just how many of those hazards exist inherently in the work.

Lets see: no government oversight or protections, police harassment and brutality, no health care or workplace safety standards, and stigma from all segments of society. Still, even given current conditions, I'd rather do sex work over asbestos removal. Many types of sex work are (at times) hazardous, degrading, and illegal. Aside from being a drug mule I can't think of too many other jobs that hit on that trifecta but the stigma and hatred directed at sex workers (from outright damnation by the religious right to snide judgment and bullying by "well-meaning" feminists) still seems like one of the shittier occupational hazards.

Ellie,

Thanks for taking the time to comment, although I'm having a hard time understanding what it was in my comment that you found "raging," or "Marxist." Or maybe you were replying to other commenters through your address to me? I don't quite get it.

I reread my remarks, and I said I believe sex work is a necessity. So I'm not against it. I just haven't met a lot of sex workers who are as happy in their jobs as you seem to be. This may be due to some quirk in themselves, or something inherently wrong with the work. I don't know. I only know what they tell me.

I suppose you are one of the "healthy, strong and super-well-adjusted" people who have the temperament for it that I mentioned in my comment.

Please accept my apology; it seems I struck a nerve. That was not my intention. If my opinion, based on my first-hand experience of sex workers I have known, was insufficiently wholehearted in its endorsement of sex work, well, that's because my enthusiasm for it is lukewarm. I know a lot of hookers; I don't know many happy ones. I wish you continued success (and happiness) in your chosen field; you certainly seem to be cut out for it.

in sydney, prostitution has been legal for about 20 years now. that makes a big difference.

the women get a bigger cut of the fee, can demand condom use, get police protection instead of exploitation, and trafficing/slavery is way down.

in this market, some women like the work and prosper and some don't. it should be their choice.

OMG, I totally misread the title... I thought it was "Sex At Work." What can I say?

This is a trade that has been around forever and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Legalize it!!!!

Ellie, on the surface, I agree with you. I do not find sex work to be inherently immoral, and recognize that it is never going to disappear. The actual conditions in the industry as it stands are a nightmare, and are every bit as demeaning and immoral as the critics say, but those are the conditions, not the basic moral of the practice. Managing it as an ethical business instead of leaving it to the criminals to manage abusively is an ideal solution.

But I'm a little skeptical about how it would work out in real life.

Highly secured brothels would provide a place where the sex workers can work safely, where the customers can be assured a degree of safety (from disease, from being victimized themselves; yes, I know that prostitutes are victims of their johns 99% of the time, but I imagine customers will still be grateful for the protection from that 1 time in a hundred.) Where the workers can participate *without* feeling compelled to be drawn into the culture of drugs and hard partying. This idea, I like.

But brothels would be expensive. There would still be a market for cheaper street workers under the radar. Worse, brothels would have a degree of public scrutiny that would prevent many people (especially married people and public figures) from participating. Many states have laws specifically against adultery. (Do all states? I don't know.) Would the brothels be compelled to help monitor who uses their services because of this? Even if they're not, I think many or most clients would avoid an above-the-radar brothel in favor of more discrete conditions. So the brothels would be mostly patronized by rich college students, boys who aren't afraid for their reputations or relationships yet and who have the extra bucks to spend on the comfort and quality of a brothel worker instead of a street worker.

Short of brothels, a formalized call girl system? Well, call girls still face quite a few dangers from their clients, even if it's slightly less than the girl on the street. She's a woman on her own, there's no one there to bust in if she screams. And again, this is a more expensive system than street workers; and any time you add a layer of formal, reputable, legally managed business to the game, you take away a degree of the anonymity that most of the clients are seeking.

I fully agree that brothels should be legalized, for the protection of those workers who are intelligently choosing to market in sex instead of being swept along by the tide of drug and party culture; and the clients who desire clean, ethical dealings with their employees. I just don't believe that it will make a significant dent in the more dangerous street trade.

Ellie, I'm totally behind you and its refreshing to read, well, the effin' obvious. Sex work can be as healthy or as unhealthy as one makes it. And it's not going anywhere. So let's move on and make it better and stop demonizing sex work and women in the process.

I'm so tired of the way people write about sex work. We need a break from that same old, same old rhetoric.

Rated and thank you.

Feministe is a great site, huh? Really like it. Wish I'd get my ass over there more.

I'm all about femmenism. Funny, I blogged something just last night along these lines...

Reading some of the comments here reminds me of one of the biggest problems with having public discussions of sex work: So much of it is hidden, *because* it is disapproved of socially, and because parts of the field are either illegal or questionably legal; as a result, we get a "blind men and the elephant" situation. It's clear that when you say "sex work", different people think of very different things, and the entire package of associations they pull in may have a very small overlap with someone else's package of associations.

For example, it seems that a lot of people hear "sex work" and think "prostitution", even if they're aware that there are other kinds of sex work. Or, those who have experienced the "typical" strip club think of the dysfunctional strip club drugs/etc. culture they know of, and associate that with "sex work". Then there are people who have followed the issue of sex trafficking in undeveloped countries, so that's what comes to mind for them. And so on, and on.

My impression of sex work comes from the many women I've known who have done it: pro-dom, pro-sub, phone sex, prostitution, porn acting, porn publishing. It's varied, but probably also not "representative". Very few of the women I've known have actually fucked for money, for example (even the one who currently does a lot of video porn, doesn't fuck men on video), so in my personal concept of "sex work" prostitution is a small part, somewhere in the background - instead, I tend to think of things like pro-domming as much more prominent, simply because I know a lot more women who do it. And some parts of the trade, such as third-world indentured sex work, are almost unreal: they're things I read about in the abstract, and have never seen in person.

So how am I to even have a conversation about "sex work" with someone who, for example, counsels homeless teens who have been taken advantage of? We may both say "sex work" but we wouldn't be referring to or thinking of the same thing.

Simply put, do I think sex work will ever go away? No. Much like drug use, making it illegal is pointless.

That having been said, would I want my daughter (or son) to grow up to become a sex worker? Lord, no. Nor would I want them to grow up and smoke crack.

HOWEVER - given that sometimes our kids grow up and do whatever they damn well please with or without our input, I want both sex work and smoking crack to be as safe, legal, and government regulated as possible. I'd rather have my kid be a heroin addict in, say, the Netherlands where they offer clean needles and treatment programs than in New York, where they offer... well, prison.

Rated. People need to remember sometimes that we can't sterilize our environment to make everything nice and perfect - things like prostitutes, johns, crack heads and sex workers all exist, and making them illegal doesn't make them go away. It makes the issue worse. There is no such thing as a victim less crime. No victim, no crime.

Great idea, good argument

In a civilized society, sex work should be legal, yet “pimping” should be illegal. The solution is very simple. The law should not allow anyone to share the profits of a sex worker, and the penalty for pimps must be severe. Cut the middleman. I repeat, cut the middleman. If you cut the middleman, you will be able to see the “human trafficking” argument for what it is…bullshit.

Feminists that stand idle while sex workers are terrorized are nothing but envious evil monsters. Feminism 101 states that a woman owns her body.

The religious argument against sex work is stupid. In any civilized society, crimes against God should be punished by God.

Thoth: But wait a minute there! If "the law should not allow anyone to share the profits of a sex worker" then that rules out any legal form of sex work other than completely independent agents, self-employed. No companies, no legal or physical or organization structures at all. How do you run a phone sex business where a single phone number can direct callers to whoever's available to take a call at the time, without spreading some of the profit to the people who organize it? How do you run a club and pay rent? This legal restriction would seem very economically disempowering, by preventing any form of organized legal cooperation.

It's very interesting to me that there's this constant focus on the fact that sex workers aren't happy with their jobs. Since when did anyone care WHO was happy with their jobs? My sister isn't happy with her job. My best friend isn't - she's on meds now because her work makes her so unhappy, I spent years being unhappy in a myriad of jobs.

But somehow, we're REALLY concerned about the mental health of sex workers...where were you people when I worked as an office manager for a psychiatrist's office (my socially acceptable version of pure hell.)

Sandra, you got me thinking with your comments re: the fact that most wouldn't be pleased to hear their daughters or sisters participating in sex work, which indicates a problem to you.

But what about the John? It's funny. We don't care about him. That same disapproving father could be the very same person frequenting a sex worker (trust me, they do - in droves.)

We're not concerned about the Johns. They don't have a problem. That's just what men do, right. But those damn women, they have to live up to entirely different standards. Let's be ashamed for the Johns, just for a change of pace (though I'm being facetious - I don't advocate any shame in relation to this work.)

Lastly, sex trafficking being pulled into this argument is SO problematic. Apples and oranges, people. I know you want to make them apples and apples, but they are not. To me, bringing sex trafficking into the mix is just a new, seemingly legitimate way, to bring healthy sex workers down. It's the "Let's do it for the Children" self-righteous cry that no one can refute without sounding careless. No one wants sex trafficking. That's a given. Let's take it off the table.

Bottom line is: I think we have huge amounts of issues with the fact that a woman could charge for sex, empower herself and use her sexuality to her advantage. We want to shame her, via a million techniques. But it's all from the same source: shame the whore. She shouldn't have the right to take advantage of the poor male's sex drive.

Okay, lastly, lastly - maybe the reason there are so many unhappy sex workers is the fact that we live in a society that shames them and constantly makes them question their choice. Maybe its the fact that they are unregulated and not taken care of legally. Maybe its these very tiresome arguments that make the sex worker unhappy.

@Beth Mann -

Shame the whore? I think it's more about the profession than the gender. Male sex workers don't exactly enjoy a high social status in our society, either. It's the profession here, not the gender.

Beth Mann wrote: "But somehow, we're REALLY concerned about the mental health of sex workers...where were you people when I worked as an office manager for a psychiatrist's office (my socially acceptable version of pure hell.)"

Did you face death, abuse, STDs, etc., on a daily basis when you worked as an office manager? I mean, I've had some Hellish jobs but my pimp... er, I mean, boss - never got to physically beat me when I didn't do my fair share. I always had a freedom to leave and try to find other work. I never really had to face anything near what prostitutes have to face on a daily basis, however, and I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the trials and tribulations an office manager faces is in any way comparable to those a sex worker does - in this current environment, in America. My physical and mental health deteriorated badly in corporate America, but I think not as much as it would have if I went down to the docks to do some hustlin'.

Now, in a country where sex work is regulated and protected, such as the Netherlands - fine. Those sex workers who don't have to deal with the dangers of being a sex worker in an environment where it is illegal - I still feel intuitively somehow that, man or woman, these people are giving up something more than the office manager is, at the end of the day. I could be completely wrong, and I support the right of people to make their own choices. Lord knows I've made some unconventional ones.

Elle--Just throwing my support behind you and a few others who voiced support also. What it comes down to is that people are afraid. But much more can be done for women everywhere, and everyone else involved, to eliminate the hole that sex work fills by giving people a decent wage, access to affordable health care, and higher education. Keep prostitution legal and visible--not underground where all the nefarious stuff festers (human trafficing et al).
Why demonize sex workers? Fear, of course. It's the oldest form of misogyny. Big, fat rate!

Incandescent, you misinterpret my stance:

First of all, all sex workers don't work for pimps or are hustling on the docks.

Secondly, my focus was on the fact that many people feign concern about the mental health of sex workers ("They must have been abused." "None that I know are happy." "How could you do that kind of work and feel alright about yourself?")

To that, I respond that there is a myriad of positions we put ourselves in that jeopardize our mental health. To me, all this talk about the mental health of a sex worker is a smokescreen for deeper problems people have with sex workers. "Something just isn't right about her." It wreaks of superiority as well. You get to judge the poor hooker instead of realizing the slew of ways we're all poor hookers.

Oh and for the record? I have had several very dangerous situations in the workplace - ones that jeopardized and threatened me quite seriously: sexual blackmail, sexual harassment, verbal abuse...so let's not act like the workplace is that innocuous. No, it's not the "docks" but neither is all sex work.

My point is: let's not act like we're that concerned with the mental health of sex workers. Once that so-called "concern" is bandied about, then we're back to the stereotypical image of the broken-down, disempowered prostitute. And there's more to the picture than that.

There are people who can manage it and there are people who can't. Women, in particular, put themselves in demeaning, humiliating positions every day - but they're usually socially acceptable positions, so we're alright with that.

And finally, again, we're so concerned about the prostitute's state of mind but there is NEVER a mention about a possible mental problem with johns! Nobody even wonders if they have some sort of issue that brought THEM into the sex work industry in the first place. The woman? She's got a problem. The guy? That's just what guys do. More demonizing, more stigmatizing.

I hope that clarified my stance.

@Beth Mann -

Beth Mann wrote: "Secondly, my focus was on the fact that many people feign concern about the mental health of sex workers ("They must have been abused." "None that I know are happy." "How could you do that kind of work and feel alright about yourself?") "

Honestly, I don't think the concern is feigned. I'd feel this concern if one of my friends - male or female - told me that they were going to become an escort tomorrow. I think the concern is valid and I think you are trying to make this a gender issue when it might not be if you look a little deeper.

I'm also concerned about drug dealers, by the way. I can't understand how any mentally stable person would want to sell crack. And yet, I know that there are mentally stable crack dealers out there. Does this mean that the career choice is a cause for celebration? No. I think most people get concerned as a natural effect when they see other people do things that seem harmful. Now, concerned doesn't mean "ban prostitution" or "hate the sex workers" - it simply means that it's a valid concern.

Beth Mann wrote:
"Oh and for the record? I have had several very dangerous situations in the workplace - ones that jeopardized and threatened me quite seriously: sexual blackmail, sexual harassment, verbal abuse...so let's not act like the workplace is that innocuous. No, it's not the "docks" but neither is all sex work. "

I still maintain that there is something different and inherently more dangerous about sleeping with people for money than office work. Perhaps I'm wrong, I don't have statistics in front of me. I've known male escorts as well - they don't seem any better off than female escorts from my perspective. Escorts, whores - call them what you want - the nature of their business is dangerous in a way that I think is irresponsible to compare to office work. Sorry.

Beth Mann wrote:
"There are people who can manage it and there are people who can't. Women, in particular, put themselves in demeaning, humiliating positions every day - but they're usually socially acceptable positions, so we're alright with that."

Replace "women" with "men" because I'm talking about ALL sex workers, not just the female ones. One might just as easily say, "Men place themselves in humiliating positions every day, but they're usually socially acceptable positions, so we're alright with that." Right? Must this be an argument about gender and female empowerment? You can't see that it could possibly, maybe be about something else, something deeper? I'm honestly curious.

Beth Mann wrote:
"And finally, again, we're so concerned about the prostitute's state of mind but there is NEVER a mention about a possible mental problem with johns! "

Speak for yourself. I don't hang out with any male friends who frequent prostitutes. In fact, the thought of it is a bit uncomfortable to me. I had a friend once who admitted to using/liking prostitutes and from that point on, I never quite thought of him the same. We're not friends anymore. Did I judge him? Perhaps. Hopefully not harshly, however - I'm not telling him to change his behavior, not did I condemn him. I just choose not to spend as much time with him from that point on.

So yes, I think that people do have an issue with johns - I mean, come on. One of the punishments for being caught with a whore in this part of the country is public humiliation - they put the MAN'S picture up and say "so and so got caught with a whore" - not the female. So which is stigmatized more, honestly?

What about men caught with male whores?

Is this about gender or prostitution? To me, it has nothing to do with gender. It has to do with human beings and human dignity.

It's a simple queston of freedom of choice. And the illegality of it is responsible for a lot of the dangers, just like prohibition. A legalized version like the Bunny Ranch is no more or less than an economic opportunity, like exotic dancing. People can take it or leave it. On the street with actual pimps there is ultimately more force and coercion. As well as dangers with clients, but I would guess that is rare at a place like the Bunny Ranch because they would A) get their ass kicked, and B) be arrested. It is Orwellian to tell adults what they can ana can't do with their bodies if they are not harming anyone else. And to argue the occupation is damaging based on the people doing it, what preceeded the decision to go into it in the first place? There are a lot of dangerous occupations, 90% of which are done by men. Does this mean you outlaw a dangerous occupation done mainly by women, or legalize it so there are medical checks, security measures, and actual recourse to the law? I don't know whether the far right or far left is more puritanical. We're animals. We sleep eat and fuck. Get used to it.

Stephanie

Have you seen the movie Born on the 4th of July? If not, rent it. While it was set in the Vietnam era there is a great part of the movie about injured war veterans and sex with sex workers.

Beth Mann wrote: "But somehow, we're REALLY concerned about the mental health of sex workers...where were you people when I worked as an office manager for a psychiatrist's office (my socially acceptable version of pure hell.)"

incandescent replied, "Did you face death, abuse, STDs, etc., on a daily basis when you worked as an office manager? I mean, I've had some Hellish jobs but my pimp... er, I mean, boss - never got to physically beat me when I didn't do my fair share. I always had a freedom to leave and try to find other work. I never really had to face anything near what prostitutes have to face on a daily basis, however, and I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the trials and tribulations an office manager faces is in any way comparable to those a sex worker does."

I think this is a great example of what I was talking about in my comment: We may all be saying "sex work" but clearly people have very very different things in mind. They have different concepts of what "sex work" is, who does it, what environment and context they do it in, and they jump to conclusions based on those concepts without realizing that the person they're addressing isn't necessarily talking about what they themselves have in mind.

Of the many women I know who do or have done sex work of various sorts, hardly any have ever faced death or physical abuse on the job, and certainly not on a daily basis. Their jobs were considerably safer and healthier that a number of "normal" jobs (such as coal miner).

I find it interesting, other issues aside, that one of the chief negative aspects often cited by women about sex work is the emotional toll it has on the worker over time. I find the contrast of this interesting in that one of the primary motivations for male clients for utilizing sex workers is precisely to avoid the emotional component.