I can't accept the notion being bandied about at OS that anyone who writes anything is a writer. Yes, they may have taken pen to paper or clicked a mouse, but by the same logic, anyone who has ever sung in the shower is a singer, and anyone who has ever taken a picture is a photographer. This need to discount achievement seems peculiar to the arts, and it's hardly new. No one would think of saying that they are a doctor merely because they've taken someone's temperature, or a mechanic because they've changed a tire. So why this peculiar cultural goal to denigrate people who spend their lives striving to perfect their natural talent, hone their craft and their raison d' être whether it's painting, writing, dancing or composing? I truly don't get it.
There's a probably apocryphal story about the Canadian writer Margaret Laurence who wrote many award-winning and wonderful novels. She was at a party and as often happens with people who have struggled to earn their living from writing, someone (a neurosurgeon in this instance) came up to her and said something like, "When I retire, I'm going to take up writing. I know I'd be great at it. Anyone can do it." To which she replied something like: "When I retire from writing, I think I'll take up neurosurgery. It's got to be dead easy."
That pretty much sums up how I feel about people who insist that anyone can be a writer just because they write. It doesn't help that I deal with clients all the time who say things like "I'd do this myself but I just don't have time" and then try to either not pay, or insist that because "anyone can write," try to diminish the value of the work. They wouldn't dare try that with their dentist or even their grocer. But somehow, the arts just don't count as a serious endeavour or a profession that can literally take a lifetime to perfect. Nope, being a writer is something anyone deserves to be called whether they work at it or know anything about it at all simply because they've written something.
That is an insult to people who work incredibly hard at writing because it tells them that what they do is so unimportant that anyone can do it without even trying. Try equating that with your own profession or job and see how good it feels to be told that it requires no skill, no dedication, no work, it just somehow, magically, "is" and of course, it's "good."
This discounting of what it takes to be a serious writer is apparent everywhere. Successful online (and even offline) publications think nothing of offering people with impressive writing careers less than a cent a word to write for them. Or more frequently, they offer nothing at all, just the "thrill of the byline" and "exposure." They're all over Craigslist and the Internet, but they are also in other industries. This idea that "anyone can write" is contagious. I have students who insist they can learn nothing about writing from me (or anyone for that matter) because they are already so good that the next stop for them is Vanity Fair or The New York Times. All they need is the degree or certificate. I have almost been convinced at times until I look at their assignments or at the online publications where they write. When other students ask me how to be better writers, I know that they have a fighting chance because they realize that getting good at anything requires practice, hard work and willingness to listen to and work with others who just might know more or be better than them. Natural talent also helps.
Before you get out the tar and feathers to ride me out of here on a rail for being elitist, angry and bitter, please consider this: I have spent countless hours since I joined OS nearly two years ago commenting on all kinds of blogs and posts. I will literally read anything from the back of a cereal box to a blog rife with spelling and grammatical errors if the author has an authentic voice and an engaging style. I've learned a lot from emerging writers who often aren't afraid to take chances, or don't know that what they're doing is "wrong," yet somehow make it work. Everybody has to start somewhere and OS is as good a place as any. Most of those bloggers would never assume that they are in the same league as someone who's spent a lifetime writing even if that person has never been paid for it. They know that writing is hard work, but also the most fun you can have without laughing.
I have been writing nearly all my life, paid or otherwise, and I hardly dare to call myself a writer because there are so many much better writers than me here and elsewhere. My goal has always been to surround myself with people who are more talented than I am. They inspire me and I learn from them. They raise my bar and keep me sharp. Very few writers are ever completely satisfied with their work, but sometimes we realize it's the best we can do in the time that we have.
I was always taught that if something is worth doing, it is worth doing well. I will go down fighting on this issue of what it takes to be a writer even if it is a losing battle, and it is if all the cultural indicators can be believed. The dismissal of the sacrifice involved to truly achieve something as an artist -- a writer -- is just plain wrong. It shows a profound lack of respect. Without respect, no one, no matter what we do, can flourish. Not even window washers.
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@CrazeCzar: I would argue that the reason Robin Williams can do that is because he is a professional and has had a lot of training. People who know what they're doing can usually think on their feet, and break the rules. But you have to know the rules before you can break them successfully.
@Roy: thanks.
i am having trouble understanding the upset this is all causing. like it or not, there are degrees of qualifications for any profession. (i am not speaking of literal, sheep-skin degrees).
i see some EPs that make me cringe when all they contain are a synopsis of a tv program after i've read an incredibly good piece of work that showed hard work, style and was good reading. yet it languishes.
i think we need to look at ourselves, what our own goals are. when i write here, i try to do the best i can. if i've done that, then i am partially satisfied. but i always know a piece could be better. so i read better writers to learn from them. and i try to not take things so personally. it's hard, but needs doing as you've said elsewhere, emma. (r)
I don't believe that ANYONE is discounting the achievement of people that write well. I'd guess that most of us admire them greatly and many people strive to emulate them. Some of us don't bother because we know that we can't. the best we can do is try to keep what we blog readable.
In fact, I admire "real" writers every bit as much as I admire a good plumber, carpenter, gardener, electrician or skilled factory worker. They too have worked hard for years to perfect their trade. They too have become "real" at what they do. They too could be condicending as hell if they chose to be.
Just as I can craft wood as well as most carpenters, I don't profess to be a carpenter. But what that also means is that because I dislike being pushed aside by "real" writers as "just a blogger" I can't find that demeaning.
Bottom line is that what is irritating us (read me if you prefer) is that MANY of the self described "real" writers here ARE condescending as hell.
By this I mean that they just don't discount the writing of many writers by declaring that they are "amateurs" and "novices", but they go on to tell me what I will like and dislike because, as "real" writers they know better than I do. ESPECIALLY on this last point I call bullshit.
Yes. Exactly. This is what I was trying to convey to someone the other day, but put much more succinctly.
Is writing an art form? That's for better minds than mine to decide. I always considered it a trade, at best a craft, but then I had no aspirations to write the Great Canadian Novel (besides, Margaret Laurence already had).
@Safe_Bet's Amy: I really like your first paragraph because I think a lot of people at OS feel that way. I don't think I am condescending because I have supported countless bloggers here who are not "real writers" but I enjoy their work all the same. And many of them have gotten a whole lot better in the time they've been here and I love to see that. Are sure that the writers you speak of are truly condescending (and if so, who are they because I haven't noticed it), and that you and others aren't just projecting that feeling? I don't know, that's why I'm asking, because I just don't understand the way you feel.
@Bonnie Russell: I'm such a bad singer that I won't even sing in the shower!
I think most who post here on OS like to "blog", like me, just to bounce thoughts and ideas off of other people. There are certainly plenty of accomplished and professional writers here on OS. I can tell good writing when I read it. You write well, emma. You have engaged me with your post, and have done your job as someone who publishes on OS. I have read and rated some of your other posts, although I don't comment simply because I have nothing to say.
I have not however, given one moment of thought to which of various titles persons assign to themselves. If a person calls themselves a writer, I suppose I will see their work in a bookstore or magazine rack, and maybe I'll buy it. If their work is not available, so what?
And on the other hand there are the ones who meet an editor at a party, screw him or her a few times and write about the latest scandal or drivel and get to call themselves "authors." Yes, folks, it really happens. The less original and more conventional you are the more likely it will pay off.
Oh, did I mention it matters what school you went to? My office used to be next to Norton's (the publishing house) I used to ask what school they thought I should send my daughter to. They ALL went to Eastern private colleges, and yes, that is where we sent our daughter, and it paid off. At least she will have a career in the arts if my wife and I weren't able.
@Conrad Capto: You have a clear idea of what you want to achieve and I think knowing your goal is a good thing. I have no idea of what I am doing here. Thanks for your thoughtful comment (and the compliments!)
My favorite treatise on writing is Alexander Pope's "Essay on Criticism", from which I'd like to quote the following two non consecutive verses in response to your post. They reflect my views that although writing is an art, the purpose and passion that lead one to it should be recognized duly:
True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance,
'Tis not enough no Harshness gives Offence,
The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense.
Whoever thinks a faultless Piece to see,
Thinks what ne'er was, nor is, nor e'er shall be.
In ev'ry Work regard the Writer's End,
Since none can compass more than they Intend;
And if the Means be just, the Conduct true,
Applause, in spite of trivial Faults, is due.
Rated
It's fascinating that professional writers are seen as condescending to the non-professionals when, as you point out, they're giving the benefit of years, maybe decades of training, skill and experience writing for the most demanding editors in the world in their comments, posts and advice.
Construing that as "speaking down" is defensive BS. Being slagged for your professional skills is, as you point out, simply disrespectful.
It would be easy -- if deeply weird -- to start asserting that whatever OS bloggers do for a living is something we, too, could pick up easily and do better than them. But who would be that weird?
It is a deeply comforting belief that an amateur is better than a pro; most have never tested their material in the commercial marketplace -- and hand-flap that criterion away because....it feels good to be dismissive of that achievement.
I told writer friends -- yes, those people who get paid for it -- about the huge to-do in response to my recent post, how people who consider themselves writers de facto are even better (with mirrors?) than those who've done it for a living for decades. If it feels, good, believe it. A few of them visited OS to read the outraged/angry/insulting comments in reply to my post and found the whole thing an absurd tempest in a teapot.
It's clear to me now why there are so very few professional writers here. I wonder why you persist.
Oops, I just thought of a couple - or at least one - who've said from time to time that he or she was a writer. OK. They say the short-term memory goes first. I think people who write seriously are more apt to describe themselves by genre, and then perhaps somewhat modestly or even self-effacingly: novelist, poet, biographer, historian, screenwriter, playwright, lyricist, scribe, jinglist, what.
I think the characterization is a tad elusive, bringing reluctance to dedicated practitioners of the craft to say they've arrived at the pinnacle even if they have. The humility of a martial arts student - grasshopper, if you will - comes to mind. Always the student, ever seeking the next level. Recognition is a bonus, while the true measure comes from within.
I recall the occasional OS contributor who says, "I'm a writer," who is usually declaring it as if to reassure himself or herself. "I may be fucked up and bummed out and lowdown and a social pariah and a this and a that, but dammit, I'M A WRITER!!!" You can almost hear the inner twit adding in squeaky sotto voce, "aren't I?"
I think in most cases a person who says this for self-assurance would rather in retrospect to have said it in mind only, because if said too loudly, unless the person already has recognizably formidable skills in the field, the words are likely to come crashing back down in a dust-uppy heap of sniggers and sneers. Better to say, oh I just doodle or dawdle or scribble or piddle...and then wait a beat or two, eyes averted, for the gracious syncopation of, oh but you are a writer!!
I gently ( mostly ) correct them.
I'm an illustrator.
The difference matters a lot to me. Particularly to me, since I'd love to be an artist.
You've earned the right to call yourself a writer, and that is no mean feat of course, to use such abstract things as words to pay off a house. Others including me, might refer to you as an artist as well, though that's intangible. That's not your call.
There was a person here who referred to himself as an artist/philosopher. Red rag to my bull.
It's odd, Stellaa made a point, in her prior bio, of saying she's a blogger, not a writer, yet I always came away from her posts with all their crap spelling, feeling like I'd been in the presence of something larger than I had any reason to expect to find here.
There are any number of writers here. Ken dissed me when I commented there, but there's no denying he's a fine writer. An artist probably, though the distinction is SO fine it would probably put nan back to sleep.
The guy in your vid doing Cleaning Windows is a singer.
Van is an artist. That's how I'd put it.
In your comment to Safe_Bet's Amy, you write:
Are sure that the writers you speak of are truly condescending (and if so, who are they because I haven't noticed it), and that you and others aren't just projecting that feeling?
I can't speak for Amy, or anyone else, but it's a worthwhile question, just as it's a worthwhile question about writers potentially projecting our own "stuff" as the craft is defended.
Here's my own personal take on the whole thing . . .
I just don't care about the goddamn labels.
The proof of whatever is ultimately in the pudding - and that goes for the "real" and so-called doctors, lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, singers, song writers, artists, and yes . . . writers. I've met idiots and geniuses in all professions, with and without credentials. I might BE and idiot or a genius, or anywhere in between, with or without credentials.
Back to the condescending thing:
I don't know who is or is not truly condescending - so much is lost in translation, no matter how we try to communicate. But I do understand reading posts and comments, and thinking, "if I were just here to stretch myself a little, maybe learn to write better, maybe just to have a place to put my stories, maybe just to have a little fun with it . . . if I had never received any encouragement toward the written word, but decided to give it a shot . . . it feels like "English Teacher Red" through everything."
I need to quit rambling - these are by no means my most coherent thoughts. And anyway, these are only my thoughts on the matter. Sorry if I overkilled.
The problem with blogging is that the democratic nature of the internet means that the lines are blurred between "professional writing," "amateur writing"-- from the original definition: love of the art-- and the person who just puts out their thoughts for fun. And on a space such as OS, those who put out their thoughts for fun may consider that a writer is what a writer does, and feel resentful that someone would commit the undemocratic act of saying that some people are "real" writers on the internet, and some are not. But obviously this is so-- honestly, how many of us are good enough writers to write for the NYTimes on-line edition? Or an award-winning story?
And then there is the "pop culture" nature of the front page of OS-- people like Greg Corell, who write amazingly insightful and poetic pieces just don't have the writing voice that OS editors want for its everyday cover (though a post of Greg's did make Big Salon once).
So I guess what I'm saying is that YES, there is a difference between the writing of those who have experience, training, and artistry and those who don't. And an objective observer should be able to see it easily. But the social leveling of the internet and the editorial priorities of OS blur those distinctions. The "personal relationships" that crop up on OS also blur the ability for the reader to be as objective as they could be.
So I agree with you, Emma, but I think such distinctions are a losing battle in a milieu like OS.
@nanatehay - That's not nice.
@ Boanerges Redux "Is writing an art form? That's for better minds than mine to decide. I always considered it a trade, at best a craft, but then I had no aspirations to write the Great Canadian Novel (besides, Margaret Laurence already had)."
To me, the decree, the title “Writer”, is a very specific and honorific thing – a title of distinction, not an occupation or an action. Shakespeare is a Writer. Proust is a Writer. Woolf is a Writer. Of course, television shows and movies, songs, novels, news articles, magazine content, textbooks, advertisements, blogs, prescription inserts, etc. are written media as well … as in “people write them” (journalists, authors, experts) … but, until Open Salon, it never occurred to me to lump all of these aspects together under the umbrella “Writer”. Even as my rigidity on the subject has lessened discernibly, it still feels awkward to use the word so broadly.
For instance, if you asked me what Dorie Greenspan does, I would tell you that she writes cookbooks (dozens of them). My initial instinct is not to call her “Writer”. She is a writer, however in the regard that she has expertise in the field of cooking and has published her wonderful stories alongside her recipes. The use, or rather non-use, of the title is prejudicial only in my understanding and mindset, not in the quality of her work. Simplistically, I suppose you could term it “semantics”, and while those types of misunderstandings are most emotional, I feel no emotion regarding the disagreement at all – nor do I feel that I am right or wrong. The definition only exists in my own head, therefore, I wouldn’t expect anyone else to agree, nor would I care if they disagreed.
If I was ever making a point, it is that I have learned the term “Writer” has as many meanings as there are people to define it. I am an ardent lovah of prose and poetry and heartwarming commercial advertisements which display the generosity, compassion, and outstanding physical condition of Peyton Manning and while, in the past, I may not have ever given appropriate consideration to the creator of the latter, I now understand with new appreciation and the entry in my cranial dictionary is quite a bit longer.
I love beautiful writing and while I feel that I know what good writing is, I do not consider myself a writer – I toy with writing, yes, but a writer, an artisan, no. That is not a lack of confidence or a plea for validation. It is simply the truth. I am too lazy to be a writer, too undisciplined. I can do it well enough if I choose, but I do not earn the title with the consistency that is demanded of the honor.
And I have nothing but respect for those who have truly served as the example of the distinction.
@Fusun A: I can't believe that I'd forgotten all about that essay. It is as apt today as it was when he wrote it. Thank you so much for posting it.
@Caitlin Kelly: you make so many great points and a lot more succinctly than I did. I think what bothers me the most is the overt hostility that some have for people who have devoted their lives to writing. Like you said, why on earth would I think I know more about carpentry than a carpenter, or more about medicine than a doctor? Much less diss them for it? It is very odd and hurtful.
@Matt Paust: I definitely feel that I am still a grasshopper, albeit one with a lot of experience. I have long resisted calling myself a writer but I am not ashamed of doing so now. I have earned that distinction, just like someone else earns their designation of MD, PhD, lawyer, nurse etcetera. I don't wake up in the morning patting myself on the back for being a writer, quite the contrary. In fact, I usually beat myself up for wanting to do something so thankless, underpaid and judging from many of the responses at OS and the world at large, disrespected. But it's what I AM, and what I've always wanted to be.
@Kim Gamble: I quibbled about whether to use the word artist or not in this post, let alone the title because I knew some would attack me for it. That's OK. I think there is artistry in a whole lot of things, including illustration. We'll have to agree to disagree there. I agree about Stellaa by the way. She is a writer, just not a very good speller.
Re the Van video: that was a mistake! I've changed it. I didn't look at it carefully enough. The new vid isn't very good quality, but it is Van the ARTIST.
You've got a fine example of condescension right here in one of the comments you received. Condescension doesn't have so much to do with the content of what is said (and in this case that is true), but with HOW it is expressed. You'd think that a "real, professional writer" would know that and write accordingly. That they don't can only be indicative of arrogance and condescension from one of the "betters".
BTW, if I am "misinterpreting" and "projecting" isn't that as sign that the writer failed to get their point across?
P.S. and as I said, I'm not projecting because I have NOT pretensions of being anything other than a hack blogger who wears her heart on her sleeve most of the time and is a shrill bitch the rest! (Ha Ha! Matt & Nana - beat you to it! )
It is, in fact, relatively easy to be a writer in the descriptive sense, much easier than to be a dentist, which requires educational and professional qualifications. It is difficult to be a writer in the honorific sense, particularly when those wielding the laurels have high standards. I think the author of this post is upset at the ease with which people tend to confuse the descriptive and normative uses of "writing" or "being a writer." But of course that confusion wouldn't exist in the first place if the term writer did not--unlike plumber, businessman, maid, toll collector, and forest ranger--harbor, in and by itself, a certain honorific potential.
@Scarlett: Well put.
@From the Midwest: I think a lot of people are afraid of what they don't understand, and react accordingly
@Owl_Says_Who: Yes, there are idiots and geniuses in every profession, writing included and maybe even more so! Your didn't "overkill", not at all.
voicegal: I think you're right, that's why I said it's a losing battle. But I wanted to say it one last time.
It is the same insult when we painters get told that it is all due to "talent", as if we do not spend our lives learning and practicing our craft. It all chalks up to "talent".
arrrgh.
As for writing, I was first published at age 10. I wrote an allegorical tale about nuclear weapons and got published in the local rag. Until the past couple of years, it's been a dormant gift. There are a lot of us who have had to put some of our gifts away in order to get through life.
I am NOT a writer who has made a titled profession of it, but I am a writer, so it is respectful to acknowledge both groups: those who have been in the profession those who become writers later in life.
Rated and appreciated.
@I_Irritated_Mother: I'm glad you broke your hiatus. Yippee! This may seem odd, but I know exactly how you feel. I have rarely called myself a writer. It seems so demanding somehow...so much to live up to and like you, I lack discipline. I tend to be a lazy writer UNLESS I'm getting paid. Then I write like the wind. Writing used to come very easily for me and I was rewarded for that, perhaps more than I should have been. Now that I am struggling to really learn my craft, I realize just how bad I was when I thought that I was reasonably good. I am a much better writer now than when I was doing it 3 or 4 times a day on deadline.
I consider you a writer. Full stop.
What I don't get is the need to label what anyone is. Who cares? It's the art that counts. A "pro" can put out garbage and someone just screwing around can create a gem. Genius can come through anyone at any time.
What do we call someone who has one hit song and then goes on to become a stockbroker? We could debate it for days and it would signify nothing. The song matters - and the rest is a tempest in a teapot.
Bravo! Applause! Indeed. Totally.
having stated numerous times where i stand on this issue, is the fault mine, the reader's, or hers, the writer's??
OS is an interesting place to me because, though purportedly a blogging platform, there are people here who choose to work their craft, ignoring the social/informal aspect that "defines" OS.
What is writing to me? It is an art, a craft, a need. The first thing I think about in the morning, my last thought when I go to bed. If days go by and I cannot write it seems to me the world is not in its correct axis.
That said, even though I publish in my native language and I am called a writer by others and I define myself at such, I have never failed to say there are writers, and THEN there are writers.
I still have a long way to go.
Once again, you appear to me to be way oversensitive. You commented on my post on this subject seemingly taking offense to me that if, because an artist, writer, singer, songwriter, sculptress etc. may have never received a single solitary cent for doing what they love... that they are somehow automatically untalented?
Surely if they worth a squirt someone would have paid them, right?
Not necessarily IMHO Ms. Peel! OS is flush with talent, yes writing talent. Seems to ME ma'am that those who HAVE gotten paid feel threatened by the unwashed, non-certified masses here, who happen to make their livelihoods doing something other than writing.
More than a few who have gotten paid, or even made a full time career from writing have complimented me for example. Me, the hillbilly carpenter with very few college hours! Would I dare call myself a writer? HELL NO!
Like I said, I blog for fun, and fun it is!
Reading here is a free education, and I suck it all in whenever I have time.
And yes, you do come off as rather elitist. And did I say oversensitive?
She's totally talking about me here. I am kompletelee engagching.
(snicker)
But I don't think I am a writer.
I think this is excellent writing, as usual, but I also agree with you. I have not followed the argument, so forgive me, but you especially are unpretentious and find enjoyment in others work that isn't even close to professional..(again..me! You have always been kind to me.)
See? It's all about ME! And you're aces in my book.
to me ASKING that if,
See, I truly suck
I'm not touching the rest of your personal attack on me. You're entitled to your opinion.
I said you were OVERSENSITIVE, and yes that you do in fact appear here rather elitist. That's a personal attack?
How about remove oversensitive and replace with thin-skinned (?)
Personal attack?
Wow... You should know the difference by now between a blog comment that mildly questions you and a personal attack.
I think Hemingway is grossly overrated. I would rather read the pretty lies of Anais Nin than his simple declarative sentences. Finally read "Movable Feast" because I am completely obsessed with Paris in the 20's and 30's...and I couldn't finish it..."We then went to the bar and there were oysters and we ordered the oysters and we ate them".
Feh.
Maybe I should give him another try...mmmmaybe.
Rated.
Because it has become popular to diss anyone who dares to consider themselves a professional writer at OS because apparently, nearly all professional writers are bad by definition. There are bad apples in any profession, but why would ALL writers be bad? I have nothing against passion. If I did, I wouldn't still be here. You didn't respond to my query on your blog as to how you think most people would feel if they were told that their profession/job took no particular skill or talent and that "anyone could do it." That is EXACTLY what is being told to some people here simply because they had the nerve to say what they did for a living and it happened to be writing. It's rude, demeaning and unnecessary.
Why don't you savor the creative ambiance instead? Our predecessors, Hemingway and Fitzgerald, gladly lived among "lesser" writers in Paris. They didn't feel the need to call these other writers out.
You are making a lot of assumptions. I am not "calling out other writers" nor do I think that they are "lesser." That is your opinion, but it is not what I'm doing. As for savouring creative ambiance, I don't find a lot of what happens at OS any more particularly creative TO ME. I don't write for rates or reads, I write because I feel strongly about something. I don't need a fan club to tell me I'm great every time I post.
I think we can all take a lesson from them - especially because, professional or not, paid or not, published or not, no one on this site has yet achieved the acclaim, fame, and literary sainthood of these two men.
You are very right. From what I know, Hemingway -- who was notoriously insecure about his writing and fame to the point that he eventually killed himself -- didn't spend his time surrounded by people who were necessarily better than him. He felt more comfortable with writers he knew were inferior. His complex and conflicted relationship with Fitzgerald was a case in point. Arguably, Fitzgerald was the better writer (although I do admire Hemingway's style greatly), and he drank himself to death. Writing is not an easy profession.
Does this make me a writer? I don't know. But I do know that I aspire to be more than the title 'blogger' implies. At this point, I suppose I will settle on saying that I 'write' on a 'blog'.
I wonder what Vincent Van Gogh called himself having been an utter fiscal and artistic failure in his lifetime?
Perhaps we should all bear in mind that talent does not adhere to labels nor is it necessarily recognized at the time of production. Timelessness is a pretty radical concept that keeps me inspired.
Great post, emma!
I think it is fair to say no one like to be dissed or have their efforts belittled. Some professional writer work their ass of honing and creating and they don't make much of a living, if at all. Other professional writers do well, but there is always the putz who can't write and their story is pablum, yet they get some crazy great deal. It's not about justice, but it is about respect. Respecting the work someone is doing, even if it is bad. (fill in with favorite sports metaphore about how many more times they didn't do the thing or they did it badly yet they are still the hero of the sport. Or Miles Davis about all the bad notes.) And them that just want to play around, what the heck. Condesencion and snarky is defensive and defensive is offensive and it is there to cover something up, usually pain and doubt.
And this is the problem of the gambler's mentality in the fabric of American life. Don't change the tax laws for the rich because I might win the lottery. Maybe if I blog I'll get a book deal and Nora Novicane will make a movie out of it. Which really is just frustrating for everyone, except maybe the lotto winner and the book deal signer.
Great post, great discussion. Thank you Emma and all.
My respect is lost. lost. lost.
Liberte, Egalite and such y'all.
rated.
a writer gets paid, even if it's just an occasional fee from the local throwaway.
the rest of us aren't writers, just gossipers.
I don't think Kurosawa was engaging in false or cultural modesty -- I think he truly felt that way. Because the more you know about something, including a craft or art that you practice, the more you understand how little you know. It takes knowledge and experience to understand one's own lack of knowledge or skill.
I had a better opinion of myself as a writer in my 20's than I do now, decades later, even though I also know I've improved my skill considerably. Paradoxical but true, because I also know more about writing, which makes me realize how little I know, understand and put into practice.
I think the tricky part is that with that knowledge we can also judge others. "You think you know about X, but I know so much more about X that I can tell you how little you know." True enough, often, but not really helpful. We all have to figure it out on our own. If someone wants to pursue knowledge or develop or hone a skill, they will do so and will want to gain whatever insight or help they can. Meanwhile, we can only tend our own gardens.
Me, I'm just beginning to learn about writing.
haha. well you're usually all those, and you still are, but this time, you are right =)
ahem though I think you just mean to use the phrase "established" or "published" writer everywhere you said "writer". and you dont address the converse-- there are in fact some brilliant writers who never get published or established. viva la blogs & other alternatives for them I guess.
Now, would the amateur singer be reasonably entitled to call him/herself a singer? In some sense I would say so. But mentally you'd probably keep the distinction between the talented amateur and someone who makes a career of it.
That suggests that the dispute is semantic. There ought to be some other term (blogger?) for those of us who comment and post articles with neither the opportunity nor the inclination to try to make it a profession.
One non-writer's opinion anyway.
It requires very little physical effort to write, unlike, say baseball or football; all high intellect endeavors. And it takes almost no time at all to create sentences (some even grammatically correct), thence paragraphs, and pretty soon you've got a novel or Obama bashing jeremiad.
Neurosurgery in 21 days? Well, why not.
(Well, OK, if you go to my bio you'll see my self-description as Philosopher, Technologist, Writer. But each of those is offered more as a frame of reference than a credential—at least until spoken by others about me, it's just words.)
Honey you make some fine posts out of pondscum :)
Emma thanks for letting Bonnie & I conduct our tawdry affair on your post.
As Truman Capote famously cracked about Kerouac's claim that he never rewrote -- that's not writing, that's typing.
"Bonnie and me,"
instead of
"Bonnie and I,"
I'm inclined to say
get yourself a life.
Because that's what it's coming down to here.
This language is ridiculously forgiving and forgivable.
What matters is that we understand each other. How the hell was I supposed to know that in some parts of North America practicing can be spelled with a "c" ? Or that I can't call us all sublimely beautiful writers unless someone stamps the back of my hand ?
Giving to me the break for heaven's sake.
When I get really old and wrinkled and forgetful, I will probably sit on the porch at the old folks home and wonder if I was a "real writer" or a fraud. I might wonder if I would have been better off selling Volvos or inventing new candy bars. Don't know. So far, all the checks for my work have cleared, and I am thankful for that. This Friday I have to cover a football game, and next month I will write an article for a magazine about a young girl who likes to beat the shit out of other girls on the MMA circuit. None of this will pay very well, but I will do it because that's what I do: I write. I will write a few good sentences, I hope, and then I will forget all about what I just wrote. I will move on to the next project. And I will keep trying to get better at it. To borrow a phrase from Martin Riggs in Lethal Weapon, "It's the only thing I was ever good at."
And BTW, which one of our preening jackasses on Open Salon ran Sandra Stephens off?
There have been a great many thoughtful, insightful and damn smart comments on this post. I am honoured. I don't agree with all of them, and some people seem to have missed the point, but that's OK.
There are still some things that mystify me. Among them is the idea that everyone is equal in their abilities. That isn't borne out by any kind of facts or real-life experience. Some people are better painters than others, some are better writers, and some are better cooks and lawyers and mechanics. It doesn't offend me in the least that someone might be better at writing or cooking or fixing cars than me. I don't consider people to be arrogant or condescending simply because they are more skilled than I am at something. I find that attitude incomprehensible to be honest. No one can be good at everything, or at least very few. Why is the fact that some people at OS are skilled, trained and good writers, and not afraid to say so, so threatening to some? Should everyone who has made a living at writing or worked at it very hard be forced to leave or keep quiet about it so that others who haven't will feel more comfortable? It's like Caitlin said -- why would you insist that you do something better than someone who's worked at a for a lifetime? Would I say I'm as good an actor as Meryl Streep because I once stood on a stage and mumbled a few lines? Writing is no different.
People have tried to cloud this issue with money. I have never said that money determines whether someone is a good writer; however, in our culture most people who earn a living doing something are generally considered to know something about it. As someone noted, Van Gogh never sold a painting in his life and was tortured by that, but he continued to paint and most would agree that he was a genius. Most of us aren't at his level to say the least, and we probably don't have a brother willing to support us as he did.
Some have said this isn't an issue, that writing is writing and it doesn't matter who does it. To some extent, I agree with that. What I don't agree with is those who insist that anyone who writes for a living must be bad at it and that has been said a lot in the past few days. Again, I am mystified. Others have said that professional writers at OS, including me, are jealous of the attention that other writers are receiving. I can only speak for myself, and I'm not jealous. I've had plenty of attention for my writing professionally, publicly and privately. I'm a skilled enough writer that if I wanted to be on the cover of OS regularly, I could do it. But I'm not interested in writing journalism for free, or fulfilling the mandate of what gets on the cover here. That's not why I'm at OS. If that sounds elitist, I don't really care. After this many years on the planet, I know what I can and can't do, and what I will and won't do.
@T. Michael Stone: Sandra is still around although she posts infrequently. From what I understand, she's been very busy at her business. I love the Martin Rigg quote. I agree. Writing is the only thing I know how to do well, and it's what I love doing most. I'm not about to apologize for it no matter what some people here think about writers, professional or otherwise. That's their problem, not mine.
Perhaps I am naive. Perhaps I don't read as much on OS as others. I know I've seen a lot of snarky bullshit. But I've never seen professional writers telling less experienced writers they should leave. On the contrary: I've seen lots of disdain for people who make their living writing.
And I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim that getting paid for being a writer means you're a better writer than anybody who doesn't--especially in this day and age when it's getting harder and harder to make a living as a writer. (Again: perhaps I am naive or poorly read, and I certainly know there's a lot of backdoor crap in the form of PMs.) Yes, I threw my tax return into the mix, and that rubbed some people the wrong way. I did it not to lord anything over anybody, but simply to make the point that writing is something everybody thinks he/she can do; in fact, I did it to set up the fact that so many people who think so little of writing believe they should tell me how my job should be done.
As I've said as often as I could in the last couple of days: I hope everybody writes more. I hope everybody writes more on Open Salon. I hope everybody gets the cover as often as he or she wants. I hope the people who want to be better writers keep working to improve and the people who want to just have fun have fun and the people who use this forum for catharsis or social connection or whatever find what they're looking for.
Finally, I will say with the utmost sincerity: I want people to be better writers than I. I want them to inspire me. On occasion, I want them to work for me. I have three employees who are better writers than I am, and I hired them for that very reason.
As to the main point -- I agree totally. You see it in Hollywood especially, where producers and studio executives routinely say stuff like "I can get a draft anywhere," "I put down the dots, you connect them," "You're just coloring in the Easter eggs," and my personal favorite, "The thing writes itself!" That's something I'd like to see ...
I'm also very grateful that on OS, for the most part, those who comment understand I don't love writing I'm simply trying to get better at living the life I have. I wish I had the ability to communicate better with words only so I could accomplish my own goal because I'm receiving a lot of helpful insight from others. I struggle just to find the words to write this comment to you, writing well is very difficult from my personal experience here, but even the best writers don't critique me and that feels like respect to me. It gives me the room to get healthy, then I can get back to being a better member of society. I don't mind if others don't read my posts, I want them to read for their enjoyment and learning the same way I need to. I'm glad people keep writing and I respect it a lot, my life would be dreary, even in the best of times, if there was nothing to read.
I do feel bad that my punctuation makes it hard for others to read. I hope when I get better, my thinking will be clear again and my comments will be easier to understand. Thank you again for your post.
In that we are mostly all writers here, because the written word is our medium of communication, we are not all Writers- craftsmen and women of the English language (and other languages for some).
We are all struggling in our various ways for our recognition, and also for authenticity. That which sets us apart and also brings us together, in a group, in ways we want to be identified.
(and somehow the degree in writing only somehow adds insult to injury)
Just sayin'........
Yes. There are people who are artists. They are genius Writers with a capital 'W.' A few of those people are here. A very few. (Not to diss anyone, but not many of us can be Ralph Ellison or Eudora Welty worthy, etc. etc.)
And then there are competent people, who write well enough and can make a living at it. Some of those are here.
And then there are the scribblers and dabblers, and you know, I just can't believe it's disrespectful towards the genius and the competent among us if these people enjoy their own work and others enjoy reading them and we call it writing. It is writing. They do write. They are writers. It is not the honorific title, to be sure, but you know, who's getting paid here? Also, sometimes, they hit the mark. They make a little bit of art. That is never bad.
If you work hard on your writing, then kudos to you for that. If you like to scribble and communicate, then good for you for that. I think seeing it as disrespectful is … a reaction I’m confused by. Everyone struggles in some way, right? That’s the nature of life. It’s brave just to wade into the fray. As I find emma to be one of the bravest people I’ve yet met, I respect her post. But, I’m confused by what looks a bit like the desire to put other people down (not you, emma!), which I’m seeing elsewhere on the site, in the efforts to take an artistic process, which sometimes succeeds and sometimes doesn’t, and slap it in cement and call it done. Everyone has the right to post here, scribbles or not.
Anyway, I don’t know what I like, but I know art. And art is a process. The genius, the competent craftspeople, and the dabblers all have to work together to bring it all to life.
"A writer is someone who writes."
E. H. Hemingway
"There is no great difference than that between the amateur and the professional in the arts."
F. Scott Fitzgerald
You say "Very few writers are ever completely satisfied with their work, but sometimes we realize it's the best we can do in the time that we have."
Very true, but in all aspects of life one must keep practicing to seek improvement.
With regard to OS, I do not find the rating system too helpful for any wishing to stretch themselves. However, for those wishing to improve the comments that are made constructively are what needs to be looked to if improvement in writing is to be achieved.
I do write. I have written. But I am not a writer. I'm really not that good at telling stories. I write anyway - but I don't call myself a writer. The more I do write, though, the more I realize what makes a good writer - traits that I don't have. I think some people are natural storytellers, and no lack of spelling and punctuation skills would keep me from calling them writers. They know pacing, and character development, and how to plot a climax.
I can spell and punctuate with ease, but I think even with training, I would never be "easily" able to open my mouth and tell a compelling story, from start to finish, and just KNOW that it will resonate. And that's why I am not a writer. Not doing that well only takes SOME of the joy out of writing - but not all of it. I will continue to write. But I would never feel comfortable calling myself a writer.