An Ethical Hedonist

A rational life is the most potentially enjoyable life there is.

EthicalHedonist

EthicalHedonist
Location
Atlanta, Georgia, United States
Birthday
April 15
Bio
I believe in pleasure and the pursuit thereof. I am a full-time college student and aspiring lawyer (as well as a full-time software engineer and a part-time musician/artist) working through my Bachelor's degree in preparation for law school. Sometimes I get mad at people in the news. So follow my journey through school and life as I juggle my many hats and save up for law school.

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JANUARY 8, 2010 9:08AM

Celibate, Silent... or Dead?

Rate: 17 Flag

When I was about 15 years old, I became a Christian.  I was on fire, with a passion for the Lord and a zeal for learning about my newfound faith.  I was in my church's youth choir (even becoming a section leader at one point), and I took the advanced apologetics classes they offered to lay church members.  I had an idea that I would someday be a minister, spreading God's love to everyone I met, bringing joy to distant corners of the earth through my works.  The only problem was that I am very, very gay.  I've known since I was young, and I knew it when I was born again.  I didn't find much of a problem with it; even though my church was rather conservative, I was rather liberal and so didn't find anything wrong with believing the Bible was faulty at times, plus I believed firmly in the concept that the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant and those laws were no longer important to us.

So I proceeded to be the Best Christian Ever, loving all I came in contact with and being an obedient servant to the Lord My God, but it all came crashing down the spring I turned 18.  My youth choir was going on a trip to Panama City, and my dad and I thought it would be prudent to inform my choir director about my orientation, as she would be the one in charge of us.  We told her, and she was fine with it.  But she informed the church's music director, and he informed the head pastor, and the next day we received a call from the head pastor, who told us that if I were to remain in his congregation, I would have to remain "celibate and silent."  In addition, he was going to start preaching against homosexuality in services.  I was mortified.  We thought it best that I quit the church right then and there, but I went to one more service.  At that service the pastor took me aside and started talking about making me whole again with Jesus, and that he knew of some ministries that could change me.  I told him that I didn't want that, and he told me that as long as I was in his congregation it was unacceptable for me to continue to have these feelings and that if I wasn't willing to cooperate I wouldn't be allowed to participate in youth activities any more.  I could read the writing on the wall, and I told him right there that I would not be coming back and that he would have no further problem from me.  

That happened almost ten years ago, and I have since lost my faith entirely, but the incident still weighs heavily on me.  I've come to realize that what happened to me was an example of a growing trend of conservative Christian xenophobia.  This xenophobia is not directed towards people of different races, but towards non-Christians, and occasionally even Christians who think differently than they do.  People who are not Christian are sinners; Christians must be protected from sin; therefore we must get rid of the people who are not Christian.  The preferred way to get rid of them seems to be to convert them, but it's starting to look more and more like some in the religious right are starting to acknowledge that not everyone can be converted.  And the question this raised for me was: what happens to those people?

Uganda's "Kill the Gays" bill seems to provide a rather extreme answer to that question.  If you insist on being a sinner, we'll throw you in jail, and we'll kill you if you do a whole lot or in a particularly egregious way.  It's a pretty simple concept and most of us in the west (especially non-Christians) are horrified by it.  Christians are quick to distance themselves from the legislation, saying that it is an un-Christian solution to the problem, and to be fair, most Christians, even the homophobic ones, are genuinely opposed to the outright slaughter of gays.  But I'm fascinated by the amount of backpedaling and doublespeak from the evangelical leaders whose sermons set the ball in motion for this utterly shameful piece of legislation.  People like Scott Lively who campaign tirelessly against "the homosexual agenda" and fight to get GLBT people banished from schools and other public positions are suddenly finding themselves backed into a corner, having to defend themselves from the consequences of their belief system.

Scott Lively, in addition to the three anti-gay organizations he runs (all of which have been classified as hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center), was also once the former head of the California branch of the American Family Association. The AFA is a right-wing Christian organization that has campaigned against gay teachersgay journalistsgay people on televisiongay people in advertisinggay allegories in moviesgay-straight alliances in schools, and apparently just about anything that could possibly be construed as gay.  In fact, not only did they oppose then-Representative Jim Kolbe's speech at the 2000 Republican National Convention, they suggested that he be arrested when he returned to his home state, since he is a homosexual and Arizona's sodomy laws clearly indicate that he should be punished for that.  Scott Lively moved on from the AFA to form a group called Watchmen at the Walls, which is apparently responsible for a large increase in anti-gay violence in eastern Europe and Russia.

How does someone who is most famous for being the founder and/or president of three hate groups, who wrote a book called The Pink Swastika, who is affiliated with multiple organizations that support the criminalization of homosexuality — how does this person take a trip to the most homophobic place on earth to deliver what he terms "a nuclear bomb against the gay agenda" and not expect that they're going to react by imposing the death penalty on those accused of "aggravated homosexuality?"  But the sad thing is that I believe Scott Lively when he says he "was very disappointed" in the way the bill turned out.  I believe that he honestly does not want homosexuals killed because he doesn't want blood on his hands.  He would rather that we be jailed for life for our crimes; he wants us converted if we're not already too far gone; he wants us hiding in the shadows in fear for our livelihoods — but he doesn't want us dead because that would be unpleasant.  In his mind, we can avoid all of the suffering he would impose upon us by simply converting and being cured.  This is what conservative Christians do: they claim that Christianity is about love and forgiveness, but there's a neat little scam in that statement.  Jesus is the one who gives you his love and forgiveness.  All Christians have to do is tell you about Jesus, and that for them is love and forgiveness.  Whenever you hear a conservative Christian talk about compassion, remember that "compassion" is doublespeak for "Let me tell you about Jesus."  And anything that happens after you turn your back on Jesus is entirely your fault.  The only compassion required from a conservative Christian past that point is just to tell you about Jesus again.

So my question becomes this: what place is there for GLBT people in the theocratic society these people seem to want?  They don't want us dead, apparently because they feel it is wrong to murder.  But anyone who is gay would seemingly be barred from any kind of public life or gainful employment unless they were to repent (and either be cured or be celibate), lest that person influence the community's children into becoming homosexuals.  I suppose that they would come up with places for those of us who won't convert where we can live without pushing our homosexual agenda on the rest of the world.  Prisons or ghettos, it doesn't much matter.  The bottom line is that their society will be free of the homosexual filth that currently makes them seethe with resentment - why are they, the faithful, made to watch as their gay neighbors live together in sin?  Why do they have to allow their children to mingle with other children who may not be heterosexual?  Wouldn't it be better for the truly faithful if they could just cleanse their lives of our sinful ways and our homosexual agenda by perhaps putting us somewhere out of sight where we won't be a bother anymore?

You have got to compete with them…you have to be working toward a future of your own. A picture of the future of your own that is contradictory to theirs, in which the things that they want to do have no place because you have been so successful at promoting the idea of sex within marriage…focus on transforming the society to be reinforcing of all these ideas…everywhere…When you do that then you create a climate in which these things really cannot get very far.
- Scott Lively, Kampala, Uganda, March 2009

And that leads me to an even bigger question.  Why does nobody ask questions like these?  Why has nobody asked one of these people during an interview what place they see their GLBT neighbors (or their atheist neighbors or their Buddhist neighbors) having in society?  When the answer is "none" (or more likely, some self-serving answer that sounds good but says nothing), why does nobody then extend it to the question of what happens to us?  It would be one thing if these were the rantings of a Fred Phelps, someone who has credibility in the eyes of no one.  But this is a man who directly influenced the creation of a bill that will lead to the execution of gay men.  This is someone who is gaining influence among the Christian right.  These people are starting to wield an increasing amount of political power, and it seems that the only person even halfway willing to ask them any kind of a hard question is Rachel Maddow.

So I think I have a New Year's Resolution now.  From now on, any time I see someone advocating the removal of GLBT people (or atheists, or Muslims, or any marginalized group) from some part of society, I will send them a letter asking them what their end game is.  And if I ever get a reply, I will post it online.  Or better yet, I'll try to get an interview with someone and post that.  I'll start holding my breath now... 

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As a dedicated follower of Rachel Maddow, I've been following this Uganda business as she and Jeff Sharlet unfold it on the air.

When she ran that clip of Lively telling Ugandans that gay men = serial killers, I nearly got physically sick.

This shit has got to stop!
The question I would have is: Why on earth would you want to be a Christian?

The god Christians worship…the god Jesus worshipped…was very, very, very direct about his (the god is a “he”) feelings about homosexuality.

“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” Leviticus 20-13

Seems to me that the Ugandans…at least the ones who are Christians, Jews, or Muslims…are simply following their religion. They are doing what their god asks of them.

What is your problem with that?

(By the way, so that you do not get the wrong idea…I am an agnostic. My guess about the Bible is that it is mostly a crock of shit. My further guess is that if there actually is a GOD…I seriously doubt that GOD would condemn anyone for being attracted to same sex partners. Just guesses, of course!)
I have said it before and I will say it again. If Lively truly was a Christian, he would get his ass on a plane and go to Uganda, let it be known in no uncertain terms that executing gays is wrong and he does not want his words used as justification for such an atrocity. But he’s not really a Christian, so he won’t. He will have blood on his hands, and not one to blame for it but himself.
Since the Christian church advocates celibacy, and also considers masturbation to be a sin, what about the millions or more who cannot find a partner for "marital relations" or who choose not to? Would they be 'outed" or have a bill proposed to imprison them or worse?
First, such haters may call themselves "Christians", but they defile the word. "Christians" have become negative, hateful, judgmental, intolerant people based on their interpretation of obscure, out-of-context references to homosexuality in the Torah, or Old Testament. Exactly the same type of obscure, out-of-context references from the Torah were also used by "Christians" to justify slavery for over 200 years as well as the racism that is slavery's aftermath, still with us today. And how ironic that blacks are often the first to judge gays using the very tactics used to justify slavery of blacks only 150 years ago!!

Only "Christians" and Muslims claim homosexuality to be "wrong". History shows that homosexuality was accepted as part of the complexity that is human sexuality thousands of years ago. For example, the Souix Indians recognize four genders, Japanese samurai warriors had "relationships" with both men and women and had no word for "homosexuality". Think of the ancient Greeks, the Spartans, the Romans....

I don't recall Jesus saying a word about human sexuality, but then I've always noted that "Christians" turn to the Old Testament or Torah with its vengeance, war, etc. when they choose to behave negatively and hatefully. How many "Christains" today support torture and war when, in fact, Christianity is a non-violent religion?! Who knew?!

I, too, was "saved" at an early age and planned to be a missionary when I grew up. Of course, now I think of missionaries as Fascist racists and have long since quit religion in general. The hypocrisy and stupidity, the hatefulness of most "Christians" is intolerable. I could count on one hand the number of true "Christians" I have known in my life, but literally thousands who claimed to be such.

Keep in mind, too, that persecuting homosexuality is a smokescreen used mainly by the Right to obscure what they're really doing! Who would have thought that Americans would accept government intrusion into their bedrooms, into their sex lives?!! But, they do now! And remember, too, that Hitler and his Brown Shirts first began openly persecuting gays and other "marginal" groups before they went after Jews.

But how many Americans know we now live in a Fascist country that is quickly and quietly strengthening its grip on our lives? For that matter, how many Americans could even define "Fascism" in the first place?! Here's a hint: glorification of cops and soldiers as "heroes" is a hallmark of Fascism as control by law enforcement and the military is crucial to Fascist nations. Terrorism and fear are being used against us to bring about more police and military intervention in our lives, too. Police state and martial law, here we come!! But if I know ignorant Americans, most will still be waving the flag and cheering the "greatest nation on earth" as their heads are being beaten to a pulp by cops!!

What a country!!!
Well I think the prejudices against homosexuals are absurd…and the threats and beatings some homosexuals have suffered at the hands of heterosexuals is appalling.

But Soap Box Amy…you are way off base in your analysis.

Christianity is only Christianity because of the Old Testament…and the Old Testament tells us what the god of Christianity expects of us…what pleases the god; what offends the god. Even if you buy into the specious, self-serving nonsense that the law of the Old Testament does not apply to Christians…you are still left with the what the god of Christianity considers pleasing and what the god of Christianity considers offensive.

Deal with it. If anybody is “picking and choosing” or using “out of context” quotes…it is the Christians who are trying to justify their pretended “love” of a despicable, murderous, tyrannical god.

I am a heterosexual. Women turn me on. Men do not. But for men and women who are turned on by same sex partners…what the hell difference does it make to me…and what in the hell difference could it possibly make to a GOD worthy of the name GOD?

Of course these abominations against homosexuals should be condemned…but to suggest, as you do, that the people doing that stuff “defile” Christianity is ridiculous. The people who defile Christianity are the people who pretend to love a god they realize is an abomination.
@Scribblenerd: I love Rachel Maddow. I think she is the best journalist working today, and it is absolutely criminal (but sadly indicative of the state of our culture) that she is not more popular than she is.

@Frank Apisa: I came into it with a very liberal, cozy, huggy-feely understanding of Christianity. Up until I became an atheist, I was attending Episcopal churches or UU services, etc. The concept of the Old Testament God was always foreign to me and it always seemed like something that Christianity had moved past. I think that's the same feeling that most liberal Christians get, but you're right - if you really examine scripture, you'll see that the Angry God is still very much there.

@Dragonfly: "True" Christian is a relative term - everyone who labels themselves a Christian believes that theirs is the true way to worship.

@laur_maul: You know, I have actually heard of some Christians in the "Quiverfull" movement (the one that the Duggars belong to, where women's primary purpose on earth is to have children) who feel that people who choose not to reproduce are sinful. I don't claim to understand it, but it's still pretty messed up.

@Soap Box Army: Again, "Christian" is what you make of it. It's not like Jesus himself was all lovey-dovey like everyone portrays him in pop-culture. Think about it. "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one shall come unto the Father but through Me." The whole point of that verse is that you cannot be saved from hell unless you are a follower of Jesus. HELL. A place of never-ending torment, misery and fire. An eternity of damnation all because I didn't think you showed me enough proof.
Give me a break. How pathetic. How brave of you to write anti-Christian screed on an anti-Christian site.

Religion has rules; imagine that! You were asked to remain celibate - oh your poor thing. For that, you compare Christians with the animals in Uganda?

If you don't want to be a Christian, don't be one. No one is forcing you. But I think it is pathetic for you to bash a religion just because you cannot adhere to its rules.
Excuse my naivete, but what is wrong with being celibate and chaste? I have some same-sex attraction (4 on the Kinsey scale), which would make me a bisexual if I were sexually active. However, as a practicing Catholic who is not interested in having children (long story, mostly about not wanting to pass down my depression and my family's tendency to substance abuse to future generations), I have decided to remain celibate and chaste for life. I am 43 now, and being celibate and chaste is not too hard for me. I confessed the sin of masturbation to a priest every few weeks or so till I reached 40, but I think my libido has always been rather low. Now with all the antidepressants I take, it is even lower.

I think your pastor was extremely rude. I don't think you would have had the same reaction had you been a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian, and you were talking to a priest. (Remember that in the Orthodox Church, married men are allowed to be ordained priests.) And to advocate the removal of non-Christians from society is horrendous. Some people do not have the gift of faith. Everyone must be able to decide what they want to believe -- or not believe.
Diamantina, you wrote:

Some people do not have the gift of faith. Everyone must be able to decide what they want to believe -- or not believe.

I say what I say with respect in my heart for you…but…

…of course you can “believe or not believe” anything you want, because in a religious context, a “belief” is nothing more than a wild, blind guess about what is or is not. It is a blind, wild guess about the unknown…a perhaps, even unknowable. It is a blind, wild guess about the true nature of the Reality of existence.

There is, as you unintentionally indicted, nothing of any real importance to what people blindly guess…no matter which direction they go with their blind, wild guesses.

As for calling “faith” a “gift”…well, Diamantina, all “faith” is…

…insisting that a blind, wild guess is correct!

Why would anyone consider that to be a “gift?”
@John Knight: And how brave of you to snipe on someone else's post without apparently reading it. Did you miss the whole point of the article? Of course I don't want to live by their rules. So I left. At first I found a more liberal denomination, and then I realized the entire faith was bullshit and became an atheist. And had you read my post, which I can only assume you did not, I am specifically saying that murdering gays is NOT what most Christians want. My post is merely about asking those who do not want to murder us what they think our position in society SHOULD be, because many conservative Christians don't want us in public office, or teaching their kids, or living next door, etc.

I think I can assume that you are yourself Christian, and by calling Open Salon an "anti-Christian website," I can probably assume that you have more of a conservative bent. I apologize if my post offended you personally. If it is offensive to you because you feel I am painting with too-broad strokes, I feel that you did not take away the message that I intended, and for that I apologize. But if it is offensive to you because you subconsciously identify with something I said, then I am afraid I cannot sympathize with you.

@Diamantina: I have an almost comically high sex drive, and I can tell you that I personally could not live a fulfilled life were I so sexually repressed that I had to confess to my priest every time I masturbated. That's not meant to be a slight against you personally, but I have to say that the amount of sexual repression that happens across the board when it comes to religion is something that I think works against humanity. I was lucky enough to grow up with parents who understood that me being gay wasn't something bad or sinful, and as a result I've never had hangups about my sexuality. I've never once had to deal with the ludicrous notion that I am somehow being "sinful" for something that is built in to my being. I never have to lie to anyone to keep a secret about who I really am. And I especially have not felt a need to deny myself the ecstasies of sexual release because some old book written by repressed old men told me to. And all of that was possible specifically because I rejected religion's influence in that part of my life very early on.
I think it's wired into the human genome to distrust, exclude and suppress anything that contradicts the accepted order of things. We've seen it throughout history, in science, race relations, religious beliefs, politics, you name it. We've gotten past some of these tendencies but sadly, others remain firmly rooted, homophobia among them. I'm also a little suspicious of anyone who protests too loudly ... I wonder what lurks in Lively's closet?
First of all, the whole concept of Christianity is so deeply flawed that you can't build any kind of life based on reality. For that matter, the mere idea of basing anything on faith is pretty damn hopeless.

I'm not a huge fan of hedonism either but at least you are honest with yourself and that's pretty hard to do.

You have ideas and passion. If you apply yourself to the reality of helping others punished and manipulated by religion I suspect you will find great satisfaction and a path worth following.
From one hedonist to another,

"what place is there for GLBT people in the theocratic society these people seem to want? "- Why, closeted and running things just as its always been, of course. Haggard was how long ago!

Polynesian cultures and religions accept our mahu as part of us, always have, always will. Ever taken a hula class? Most kumu hulu are mahu- surprised gay guys like to dance on stage no matter the culture?

Most likely the Apostle Paul was a self-hating gay, read his epistles closely, and, so, BTW he was entirely fixated on circumsision! Thinking about d*#k literally all the time!, the entire false construct of any/all christian churches is laid on this foundation, St. Peter's Petros!- it is actually in Church DNA.

Jews, that's who the Christians first were, the one's who'd been lucky enough to have a rabbi cut them as infants so they might actually survive the process, and Jews they remained for hundreds of years. For anyone wanting to completely rid themselves of the whole Church guilt nonsense its easy, just read history and know the credulous you have been associating with merely worship celestial transit through the most primitive vehicle available- the Corn God death/re-birth planting and harvest cycles due to the tilt of Mother Earth's access, nothing more.

And, friend, here's how it got to Jesus- timeline: we live in trees; young brother ape is born with mutated hip joint; trying to get laid (1st hedonist?) he realizes when not in tree he can stand up and bring girls more fruit than any knuckle-dragger and he bangs em all, his kids get the gene and all stand; we walk; eons go by; we walk from Ethiopia to the Levant (Israel, not a long trek); there is grain growing everywhere so we stop and eat; dont have to hunt so we talk; society starts; many gays become shaman; Early stage Natutufians sp? are faced with an Ice Age, the grain doesnt grow; they clean up the hills removing other plants and moving healthy ones together; were farmers now; society grows around farming and the Corn God in what will be Israel; this goes on and on and every single God from Ra to Jesus is given the same attributes.

Check it out, the Church hates itself, not you. And, the natural churches of Polynesia all love you and always will ...

Aloha Kakou
I still don't understand why religious people feel that God cares more about people sexual orientation. God has a lot more to think about than that. How can love be the number one problem above rape,murder,and terrorist attacks. People need to stop focusing on this and focus on the bigger picture.
Organized religion is all about dominating other people, Kindle J. And the easiest route to domination is through the bedroom.
Dear Hedonist, I am so very, very sorry for the treatment you received from the church/pastor when you were a youth. Your hurt was real and so unnecessary. I left a very conservative denomination for one that was open to all people because I happen to believe that the heaven I believe in won't be segregated by color, sexual orientation, etc. etc. Though I can only speak for myself and my congregation (which has members of ALL kinds). All Christians aren't hate-filled, homophobic morons. Some of us actually do try to see people as just people and don't really CARE what a person's sexual orientation is. Christians must take a stand to condemn this hate filled rhetoic. I have let this issue drift past me, not thinking I had a stake in it. I was wrong. I won't be silent in the future.
This is an outstanding piece of writing ON TOP OF being right on target.
The Uganada mess and the men who incited it are abhorrent to the idea of what God is and can be. It is man who has made a mockery of God, for me, and many Christians have made a mockery of Christianity (like the pastor you described). How they have affected gay rights as a whole, is absolutely absurd and barbaric.

The Bible as it reads today is illegitimate. History tainted it and there are many books on the topic. The principles of Jesus' words are often taught incorrectly and there are many great books on the mystical aspects of the original intent behind Christ Consciousness. It can be a beautiful thing, but I know most examples today, especially played out in the media, are horrifying to watch. I empathize with your experience - I had one of my own but not near as awful. Thank you for this well thought-out post.
"All Christians aren't hate-filled, homophobic morons. Some of us actually do try to see people as just people and don't really CARE what a person's sexual orientation is."

Oh of course you care. Stop lying!
Whenever the topic arises, it sparks the same question in my curious mind...what percentage of a doctrine must one believe in order to be a true believer? For example, how much (and which parts) of the Bible should you believe as "truth" before you can consider yourself Christian? And really, there must be some line to draw, or else the designation has no meaning. I never really get (nor do I expect) an answer, but the question remains. As a true non-believer, I am unashamed. I don't believe because I think too much, maybe--I think that no God worth worship would give one hoot whether I worship or not, but would care a lot more about what harm we do to each other and to our world. In my estimation, where you put your genitalia (and indeed, why) would surely be of no concern to any supreme being as long as no harm is done. As ever, much evil is done in the name of holiness.
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/ca861703b8/religion-from-danny?rel=player
I am so sick and tired of being judged by those so called "Christians".. Most of them are beck stabbing liars and hypocrites.... I grew up a catholic, and chenged to Baptist when i was in my early 30's after i marred (a man) and had children. I thought that i had to do what was right for them. After so many years of feeling numb and doing the so called right thing I had, had enough and i stopped going to church altogether .... After years of soul searching i went back and tried to tell myself that i just had to worry about me and my children and not what people might think ...
to make a long story shorter ..... after over 20 years of marrage and cowing down to every Tom, Dick and Harry in the world, i came out ... It was a hard decision to make but i had to finally be me .... I got a divorce and after 4 years of crying and begging and fighting and trying so hard to get everyone to understand, i am here !!! I lost many friends and family members but as i believe now that if they ever reallyloved me they would have never diappeared from my life... So now i am surounded by my chilren and many Lesbian frineds and gay friends and my sister an brother who had come out many, many years ago... I have a wonderful wife and she is my soulmate and my life partner... I just wish people would understand that it doesnt matter who we fall in love with * within reason of course) it matters how that person treats us and loves us .... I have never been so much in love as i am now and i look forward to every new day with my wonderful wife ... We have finally found a gay church, well it is an accepting church, and we attend every Sunday .... Our pastor is a wonderful gay woman and we have made many friends through the church who do not judge or call names .... IT is wonderful .... I tried so hard when i was yourder with the catholics and the Baptists but, they are just so judgemental, and unloving people who can't or won't try .... I love the United Church of Christ in the Riverside section on Jacksonville Florida .... Thanks for being there for us and caring and for understanding .... Life is good again .... and so is being a church member ....
If homosexuals are dangerous seems like prohibition and persecution will only make them more so, just like drugs. There will be a backlash against legalization and even legitimazation but eventually people will see that such destructiveness is just not worth it.
@Del Stone: Considering that Lively claims to know more about the gay agenda than anyone else alive, I wonder how he explains his experience? I smell a frustrated homosexual as well.

@zencaster: It is my sincere hope that I will be a role model to all of those who have been hurt by religion. My story is not a particularly awful one by any means, but I've been able to shake of the manacles of a non-reality-based worldview and have become much happier for it, and if I am someday able to help even one person do the same, I believe I will have done a very good thing and I will be very happy to have done so. And isn't that what hedonism is all about?

@Stellaa: The mass media never follows through with anything because it's not what the American people want. Maybe if we taught more critical thinking and civics classes to our nation's kids, that would change, but how likely do you think that is to happen?

@Oahusurfer: You know, I have always loved and been fascinated by pagan/shamanistic/naturalist religions, mostly because they seem to be so live and let live. Even if I believe that they are wrong about the nature of the universe, I really don't see anything horribly negative about them. They just seem to be so devoted to increasing happiness :)

@Elena Kelly: My best friend is a gay transman, and I can only imagine what you must have gone through at Bob Jones University. My first alliance is to all of my trans friends, who are always the most vulnerable to oppression by the majority, and it is one reason why I will NEVER support institutions like the HRC that completely ignore the T in GLBT the moment it becomes politically expedient. If I ever make it out to California, I'd love to buy you a beer (or fruity drink, if you prefer) and listen to your story firsthand.

@Kindle J: I honestly don't have a good answer for that, except that it's a lot easier and more convenient to attack gays because I think there are a lot more people who are squicked out by it than things like rape and murder. Besides, rape and murder are an integral part of the Bible, and in some strange way it's less of a shock than gay people kissing.

@David Ehrenstein: I read a thesis from someone some years ago that talked about how all successful religions have subdued women as their foremost activity because women are often more likely to be reasonable when faced with the religious zeal of the newly converted. I think that while there may be a grain of truth in that, it's horribly oversimplified, but it's certainly true that almost all religions attempt to control peoples' sex drive so that the only pleasure comes from religion.

@amzggrz1: Thank you. As an atheist, I disagree with any Christian denomination's concept of truth, but I appreciate your desire to let me believe as I do just as I desire to let you believe as you do. There are good Christians out there (although I would still argue that those Christians are morally better than their religion would indicate).

@Leslie Basden: Thank you!

@Sparking: I would respectfully disagree with you, in that the Judeo-Christian God in my experience is actually a pretty awful fellow unless you decide to ignore the part of the history where he committed genocide against anyone who wasn't Jewish. I got kind of involved in Christian Gnosticism before I lost my faith, and it was interesting to how hard one has to work to validate the OT God. For instance, the idea that he was an invalid God and Jesus was the fulfillment of what he was supposed to be. At some point I realized how much simpler it was to not have to believe at all. That said, I do appreciate your open-mindedness and willingness to engage in a dialogue with those who believe differently. Thank you for your words of support!

@David Ehrenstein: Come on man, please be nice. It is true that some Christians actually don't care about someone's orientation.

@Dayna Vance: Exactly.

@David Ehrenstein: That's pretty funny, actually.

@Kim Herndon: Thank you for having the courage to be yourself. I am glad you have been able to find some healing after your earlier experiences, and I am glad you have found happiness in your life. Everyone deserves happiness.

@Gruntled: I hope that people will eventually realize that there is nothing wrong with us. It's hard to see the forest for the trees these days.
WOW! What a lively discussion! Great post for so many reasons! Soap Box Amy is so right about black people treating gays badly. I have this argument all the time.

However, as a Christian who's anything but conservative, I disagree that conservative Christians find the killing of GLBT people unpleasant. In an argument about this very issue with a black conservative Christian I mentioned that the reason the pink triangle is used to represent ga rights is because that's how gays were labeled in Hitler's Germany before being sent to the gas chambers. She laughed and said that sounded like a good idea to her. I was speechless with shock and anger!

Don't believe for a minute that these people don't want you dead!

Also, there are many liberal Christians like me who support you but we don't make it on Rachel Maddow or other news shows because we're not good press in a national climate where fires of hate are fanned not just by right-wingers but also by the media that profits from the controversy.

I fear we may see a Sarah Palin use hatred of gays, Muslims and other non-Christians, and illegal immigrants to create a fascist state that won't tolerate anyone with intelligence. I know it sounds far-fetched, but so did the Third Reich in pre-Nazi Germany.
Nice post, well written.
Rated.