fingerlakeswanderer

fingerlakeswanderer
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May 09
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cassandra
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Lorraine Berry lives in the Fingerlakes region of New York, although it's her transplanted home. On weekends, she can be heard throughout the area, cheering on her beloved Manchester City F.C. When not writing at Does This Make Sense? or Talking Writing, she can be found hiking with her two dogs, hanging out with her two daughters, eating what her beloved Rob has cooked for her, or teaching creative writing at a small college in the area.

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DECEMBER 22, 2009 9:30AM

Does God Consider Women The Inferior Sex?

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"It does not profit a man to marry. For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?"

St. John Chrysostom

933-007~Varga-Girl-Posters

 

 Sensible, decent Jimmy Carter got it right again. “This view that women are somehow inferior to men is not restricted to one religion or belief. It is widespread. Women are prevented from playing a full and equal role in many faiths. Nor, tragically, does its influence stop at the walls of the church, mosque, synagogue, or temple. This discrimination, unjustifiably attributed to a higher authority, has provided a reason or excuse for the deprivation of women’s equal rights across the world for centuries. The male interpretations of religious texts and the way they interact with and reinforce traditional practices justify some of the most pervasive, persistent, flagrant, and damaging examples of human-rights abuses.”'

Francine Prose has once again turned her attention to the status of women (did I just see you yawn? Go ahead. Click away if you wish.)  in various cultures world-wide. 

While it has become fashionable to bash Muslims as being the most severe in their treatment of women; after all, the most strict enforcement of sharia sees women being whipped for showing an ankle or their face, or being stoned to death for adultery, we continue to overlook the "death by a thousand papercuts" that both Christian and Jewish women are subjected to, even in this country, where, to hear some tell it, women have got no cause to be bitching about inequality. 

But, you know, when Jimmy Carter makes the painful decision to quit the church to which he has belonged his entire life because of its insistence on the inferiority of women, we need to be paying attention. 

The right wing in this country comprises not only teabaggers who think all taxes are the devil's handiwork and that Obama is a socialist, it is also full of folks who believe that women need to be at home, making babies, and keeping their mouths shut. 

And yes, I know. I've written about this before. I've written both as an angry woman reclaiming my body and as a scholar attempting to understand why we do not take the suffering of the body seriously. 

As I wrote upon the death of Terri Schiavo:

Terri Schiavo's death has affected me, not because I knew the woman, but because I know about the thing that drove her to her collapse in the first place. Eating disorders. Hatred of the body. The desire to hurt the thing that will not be controlled-the body, the female body.

So much of what I write about comes back to the body. It is the topic I cannot stay away from. It is the source of my politics. It is the source of my art. It cannot be separated from my brain. I am not a Cartesian. It's not just that I think; it's that I feel, and I touch, taste, smell. It's that I have orgasms, that I know the touch of flesh on flesh. It is that I have felt a baby pass through my birth canal, have felt the stirring of life within me. It is that I have been penetrated by another human being. It is that I have experienced pain. It is that I have looked at my body and seen a reflection of imperfection that I wanted to fix, and in seeing that, I have starved it, purged it, wished it different. And so, having been so much an inhabitant of my body, that I declare that bodies are the site of resistance. It is that I think the government has no right to tell me which of my senses I should privilege, and which of my senses I should discipline.

But because I am also a thinker, I think often of the sources of body hatred in this culture. They are myriad. We all know them. Today, I focus on one. This is inspired by a number of things, too many to go into here. But I picked up the Bible again recently, and concomitantly, I re-read Elaine Scarry's The Body in Pain. It has made me want to write the following.

Let's start with Genesis. With the creation of man and woman. Did you know there are two creation tales? The one that we usually remember is the one that says that woman was made from the rib of Adam, that he came first. But that's not the first one.

Chapter 1, Verse 27. ”So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

In this version of the story, God is both male and female. Both male and female are expressions of God's essence. And yet, that's not the story we are told in Sunday school. Frequently, if we are told of Eve at all, we are told of her being the source of original sin. And what was original sin, exactly?

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Eve didn't give humanity sin. She gave humanity knowledge And God's punishment for that had been like something handed out by an angry father. “How dare you speak back to me. How dare you question my authority. I will make you sorry that you were ever born.”

Not only that, Eve becomes aware that she has a body, and in that awareness, a whole other world of sensory experience is opened up to her. Think about it: What does the term “to know someone biblically” mean?

As Scarry writes:

Part of the knowledge that comes with eating of the tree of good and evil is that they stand, without protest, as creatures with bodies in the presence of one who has no body. It is crucial that these two be said together: the problematic knowledge is not that man has a body; the problematic knowledge is not that God has no body; the problematic knowledge is that man has a body and God has no body-that is, that the unfathomable difference in power between them in part depends on this difference in embodiness … their awareness of the body will soon be correspondingly be heightened: the body is made a permanently preoccupying category in the pain of childbirth, the pain of work required to bring forth food…

And so, God places a curse on Eve and Adam's bodies. He makes it that they will die. He curses women to bring forth children in pain. He makes their bodies the source of suffering. He makes the fact that God has an urepresentable body and humans have a body the source of suffering, of separation, of pain.

And I think that we've been laboring under that ever since. Do I believe the Genesis story? No. Not personally. But it doesn't matter. Because so many people do, and for them, the body is the thing that got us into trouble with God. And other people's bodies are still getting us into trouble with God. Unruly women, gays and lesbians, teenagers having sex, people insisting that they have the right to determine how and when they die. It's all, according to some, designed to piss God off. And we know what happens when God gets pissed off. Look through the Old Testament. There's plenty there. You want something that will really set you back on your heels? Look at the Book of Lamentations.

Elaine Scarry has an entire section of her book devoted to God's lack of body. Yes, of course, in the New Testament, God does have a body in the form of Jesus Christ. And there's a hell of a lot of suffering that gets inflicted on that body. But in the Old Testament, God does not have a body. And what's more, the Fourth Commandment specifically commands that humans not dare to imagine what that body might look like-at least not by making graven images of it.

What does it mean that God does not have a body? To quote Scarry:

But to have no body is to have no limits on one's extension out into the world; conversely, to have a body, a body made emphatic by being continually altered through various forms of creation, instruction (e.g., bodily cleansing), and wounding, is to have one's sphere of extension contracted down to the small circle of one's immediate physical presence. Consequently, to be intensely embodied is the equivalent of being unrepresented and (here as in many secular contexts) is almost always the condition of those without power.

In other words, to be represented by a body is to be finite, to be less powerful, to be controllable. It is not the suffering of Christ that is offered by the right wing as the source of their politics. If it were, their politics would be more compassionate, would recognize the body as the source of pleasure but also of pain. Instead, they make references to the Old Testament, to Sodom and Gomorrah, to Leviticus, to all the parts of the Bible where God seems to punish humans for simply being human.

So, I've been thinking about all of this as the drama of Terri Schiavo has played out. I've been thinking of a young woman who believed her body was the enemy. Who set out to control it in the only way she knew how. By purging it, and in purging it, destroyed it.

***************

Francine Prose returns to many of these same themes. She, too, sees women's bodies as the sticking point for male-centered religion. Let's face it, women's bodies are so damn messy. 

Ranke-Heinemann tracks much of this back to the body-hating, pleasure-despising strain introduced into the early church by the Essenes and Gnostics. Later, the early and medieval saints and theologians would show little interest in concealing their horror of sex and the body. According to one thought often attributed to Thomas Aquinas, any variation on the so-called missionary position was as sinful as having intercourse with one’s own mother.

The debate over sex with the beautiful versus sex with the ugly had its twisted roots in the belief that there was an almost mathematical ratio between pleasure and sin. The greater the pleasure, the worse the evil. Apparently, too, there also was considerable worry about ejaculation as something that drains and weakens the male, a dangerous process in general and particularly in the presence of the predatory woman who, unlike her mate, doesn’t lose in sex a life-sustaining fluid. The rabbinic admonition to think of a woman as “a pitcher of filth with its mouth full of blood” was echoed in the work of the twelfth-century theologian Petrus Cantor. “Consider that the most lovely woman has come into being from a foul-smelling drop of semen; then consider her midpoint, how she is a container of filth; and after that consider her end, when she will be food for worms.”

Julia Kristeva, the French feminist, has argued that the "abject," literally, that which we throw away from us, includes all of our bodily fluids. And women simply have more fluids than men. No wonder, then, that religion, which strives to have a spiritual relationship with God, is disgusted by those things that keep it earthbound. 

Women cannot help but be aware of her relationship to the earth. She bleeds each month, most often in tune with the moon. When she gives birth, it is in a rush of fluid, and blood, and shit, that firmly anchors the process of becoming human to the things about our bodies that we claim disgust us. 

Theologians debated for years whether Jesus shat or pissed. They could not accept that a perfect being would produce waste products. What to do then, with a creature, that produces waste products constantly--and does not die as a result? 

Increasingly, I find the body phobia of each of the three monotheistic religions to be pathological, and that pathology turned into holiness. 

I think I'd rather stay a woman. Grounded. Of the earth. Messy. Real. 

 

 

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All things woman. I think this post is a must read for us all Lorraine.
A hurried mother one day in a rush to leave decided to bath her two small children at the same time, a boy and a girl. The two children stood in the bathtub looking each other over, the little girl pointed to the young boys genital area and asked, "What's that?" The little boy looked at the little girl and said, " I don't know," she then asked, " What's it for," the young boy replied, " I told you I don't know." The young girl determined to find out said, " Can I touch it?" The young boy exclaimed quickly, " Heck No! you broke yours off already!" You asked an unanswerable question, who knows what God is thinking, and what if God is a female? I believe men have made women in their thoughts the inferior sex, maybe because the MEN who wrote the Bible and Scriptures were the first chauvinists and they didn't even know it yet. I KNOW that women are NOT inferior, they have SUPERNATURAL powers, the 3 I live with do anyway! I wouldn't trade them for the world. Be well Lorraine, your at the top of the women I know. With Thoughts, o/e
There is no stronger indication that religions are 'man'-made, than the role that women are forced to play by them.

Excellent post. Rated.
It's all B.S. The first thing any "religion" establishes is a pecking order with women and children at the bottom, to be controlled and exploited. God must be very unhappy with this situation. I've been calling myself an Unaffiliated Freethinker for a long time.
I had to go dig up this comment I made on Persephone's blog nearly a year ago. To paraphrase:

'To my mind, it's fascinating that the quest for "enlightenment" was vested in Eve just as the quest for "sovereignty" is what is embued in Lilith by the Gnostics and Apochryphal writers'

Your writing serves these historical figures well.
And then there is this from one of my posts:

'Too many men fear that losing control of a relationship with a woman is the little thread that, when pulled, will unravel civilization.'

It begins and ends with the irrational need of clerics to eradicate the whole idea of the 'divine feminine' as being too seductive. Ever since the First Council of Nicea embodied the following canon:

'Prohibition of the presence in the house of a cleric of a younger woman who might bring HIM under suspicion'

Western religion became obsessed with the 'sinful' thoughts that men entertain about women without chastising them for it (blame women)

The work continues. . .
That God is both/neither male and female is exactly the story I was told in Sunday school. It's also the story I was taught in seminary. People often hear what they want to hear, or what they fear to hear, and that's the version they pass on.

And even now, Lorraine, that's the version you're passing along — objecting to it, yes, but still asserting that as the most accurate interpretation of those writings.
Nice work. I will defend modern Judaism, though. We at least have gotten to the place where women are NOT second class citizens nr inferior to men. I had a brilliant woman rabbi many years who changed my life. Beautifully done, though, and I, too, have no yearning to be anything but a woman.
Last night, I went to see PRECIOUS with my eldest college-freshman daughter (oy. Is that movie depressing). We talked a lot about feminism, and about the fact that she has to constantly defend her right to call herself a feminist. (Apparently, if you're pretty, you can't be a feminist.) But these issues, which those of you who know me know are never far from my mind, are in my face all the time. When I came across France Prose's article (which is worth reading in full, btw) I knew I had to write something.
Lisa,
You should take a look at Prose. She does have something to say about modern Judaism. I wonder what your reaction it would be?
Neither superior nor inferior -- just different, and I don't think that "religion" chooses a side. It's like asking if fire is inferior to earth, wind, or water... Thank you for your insightful post, glad you're embracing your womanness; you are definitely right in saying it's nothing about which we should be feel any shame.
Sorry, I have a handful of broken car to fix. Short version. I don't know who has perpetuated the lesser theory on women for so long, it is a total fabrication. We all o0f us are people we are worth no more or less intrinsically than any other person. Why would a god deem one half of his creation less? when the Judeo/ Christian bible states that we are ALL created in his image. Thus, we have to be the same or the whole concept is no more than myth.
bobbot-
i agree with you. I think the texts have been misinterpreted. I just think it's interesting that of the major monotheistic texts, they've all been interpreted so that men wind up in the superior position. It's time to end that stuff. I keep thinking we're making progress, but then the fundamentalists drag us back.
I'm an agnostic...I acknowledge I do not know if there is a GOD or gods. I don't think there is enough unambiguous evidence for the existence of a GOD...and I don’t think there is enough unambiguous evidence that there are no gods.

I see NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that there has to be a GOD...or that there cannot possibly be a god.

All that said, however, anyone who wants to guess there is a GOD...and that the GOD thinks women are inferior to men...is a jackass. And any god who would have that attitude is not worth worshipping in any way.

As MarktheCanuck said...there is no better proof that gods are man made than this notion.
The Bible is a fascinating study. Here's the thing, it's not one whole book created at once. It is cobbled together from several texts from different time periods. They always use the oldest text and when something is missing, they use a newer text. What is so fascinating is that you can see the change in the role of women as society goes from equal status for both sexes to more patriarchal.

In Ch 1, God creates "them," (that's the actual text, btw, not man, but them), at once, not one before the other. The second chapter of Genesis retells the story, this version is newer and reflects a more patriarchal society. Man is created first and woman from him. In Ch 1, animals and all the earth was made before man, in Ch 2, man is created first, then come the animals and then woman.

I've always found it interesting that the beginning of the story is told twice, one where women are equal and one where men are first, yet for some reason, it's the second story, the remake, that gets pushed as the truth.
"Miriam took the tambourine in her hand, and the women followed her with tambourines and cymbals. " ~ Exodus 15:20

Follow the woman, she knows where the party is.... and the apples ;)
Frank: I agree.
Marcel--I love Elizabeth Cady Stanton's THE WOMAN'S BIBLE. She and a lot of her friends got together and re-interpreted many of the Biblical verses that have been used to justify patriarchy. It was in reading her that I even became aware that there were two creation stories. (And, of course, there's the disappeared story of Lilith.)
Amanda--Love the quotation.
how about: no, she doesn't?
Ben--alas. If only all theological arguments could be settled so easily. Perhaps you could carve that in a table at Wittenberg.
a great post full of thought-provoking and rather muscular arguments. This conclusion: "Increasingly, I find the body phobia of each of the three monotheistic religions to be pathological, and that pathology turned into holiness. " is a neat summary.

But for me the essential absurdity is the "soul", and the root of the holy inanity you explore. Our soul is an illusion, caused by mind/body duality problems, inevitable in a sapient species. Am "I" in here governing "this" body? And what is the "I" that is "aware" of the greater or lesser "I"?
To even describe it is to be forced to use quote marks and render it in dualistic terms.

Our brain IS our mind IS our soul. We struggle in an illusory command center approximately behind our eyes and ears. I see my hands do as "I" tell them to do; well, usually they obey.

Sp of course we confuse the body, that conveys/originates/births the holy "I" with both sacredness and a diminished profane status, too, because the shell is so much less than the holy "I", right?

To deny the "soul" is obscenity. To ask for proof it brands one a fool.

But to believe in it is exactly the same as believing in fairies or santa claus, and also to deny our beautiful biological complexity.

Makes "my" "head" "hurt".
Greg,
You and I are on the same page. I see the unity of my body--including my brain/soul/heart--as one unit. When I die, the whole thing goes. No afterlife. That complex system of neurons and nerves and brain and muscles and blood vessels and all that other stuff that makes me who I am is a biological entity. It is our wish for something greater that convinces us that we can separate our minds from our bodies and that our spirit is superior to the whole thing. We are what we are. And yet, we cannot accept that, because accepting that means accepting death.
Thanks for wrestling in the pit with me. It's difficult to blog about something that really demands a thesis-length platform. But the Prose article just got the wheels turning this morning.
Let me posit this, then, as both a believer in G-d and a non-believer in organized religion:

Consider that there is a huge variety of life on this planet, usually split between male and female. Consider that G-d, in His infinite wisdom, elected to make the female be the true perpetuator of each species; she is responsible for bearing young, caring for them in their infancy, insuring their survival.
How could anyone possibly twist that into being inferior? Yet, almost every religion does that. Jewish women (and I'm referring primarily to the orthodox faiths, people) are traditionally second-class citizens, allowed in temple but kept separate from the men and never allowed to handle the Torah. Responsible for keeping the home kosher, and not much else. Never allowed to be educated, certainly not educators.

Seems to me someone, somewhere, got it all bollixed up. Don't you think?
This is a stimulating post. People try to give God physicality, when God is an indescribable and holy presence that transcends any human traits. Anyone who uses the Bible as a basis for a patriarchal society seems to be missing the bigger picture.

In Judaism the body is celebrated and we are encouraged to enjoy sexual activity. Of course, any religion can distort its tenets, especially if it refuses to be part of the modern world.

I think ultimately people's views about their bodies is mainly a result of how well they can fight off the unrealistic societal pressures shown through all the media. And I think men are just as much victims as women. Sorry if these are disjointed comments--there were s0 many great topics to address.
Bill--Yep. Bollo?xed up it is.
Karin--I've often wondered if sexuality, and women's seemingly endless ability to have orgasms, has somehow brought about men's need to control us. (I hate these types of generalizations. Obviously, I'm not talking about all men. But bear with me.) If you are frightened of something, but you're stronger than it, doesn't it make sense that you would control it, AND make it feel like shit for being sexual, too?
And Will, yes, I love the Lilith story. (Have you heard Iron and Wine's song "Lilith's Song?" Gorgeous.) Anyway, not only does sex calm us down, it also causes us to form allegiances to individuals, not to the group. I've often wondered if society's need to regulate sexuality doesn't come from our fear that unfettered sexuality would lead to a world in which men would refuse to march off to war, and the handing down of property would be all screwed up because perhaps men wouldn't know who their children were.
Again, huge generalizations, but ideas that occur to me as I think about the need to control women and sex and reproduction.
In a very oversimplified manner, the story of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is an extended commentary on the cliche "Ignorance is bliss." Way too many people practice willful ignorance in some misbegotten attempt to return to Eden.
Mission--thank you. That's high praise.
iconesis--you and I are on the same page. If you can't control women, civilization comes apart.
Mark--I do believe that religions come out of our need for solace in what can be a cruel world. I don't condemn anyone for having a religion; I just don't happen to share those beliefs.
O/E: You are a wise, wise person. Thank you.
High Lonesome--yeah. Funny, in writing about it, I'm reinscribing the pecking order, aren't I?
scribblenerd. Agreed. Thank you.
Stim-
It's interesting that many of the myths about how knowledge came into the world also include evil coming along with it, and women being responsible for both.
Looks like Greg is one of those devoted non-dualists.

Respectfully, Greg:

To deny the "soul" is obscenity.


I do not “deny” the soul…but if denying it is an obscenity….then being absolutely positive it exists is just as obscene.


To ask for proof it brands one a fool.

To ask anyone for “proof” of any of these religious notions is futile..and perhaps even foolish. To ask why a person is making a blind guess that there is a soul certainly doesn’t brand one a fool.
I think that gender bimorphism is quickly being erased by the consumerist imaginary. One has to go deeper and deeper into a backward discourse like religion to find it still thriving. This is not necessarily a good thing either. The corporation wants to be able to 'write' on the body, to inscribe it, with its own meanings. This is done with the sense that it is the corporation which is immortal, and not any discourse of faith or chauvinism. We will all be equal--and equally featureless surfaces--but we will all be slaves anyway, forever subject to the all powerful, all knowing corporation, the new quintessence, which can 'own' us through genetic property rights. Monsanto has already done this with the most elemental unit of vegetable life, the seed. Terrifying. Rated.
Before the Monotheistic religions, women were held in equal light to men (if not more) in the Earth based religions and agricultural societies (the Ancient Egyptians are a prime example of this)

In a cosmic sense, men and women are on different planes but they are equal parts of and compliment each other.

That is how it should be.
Stellaa--I read a marvelous essay by Richard Rodriguez in Harper's called "God of the Desert" that asked this question: what would monotheism look like if its cradle was somewhere lush and green and vibrant? Unlike the deserts of the US (Utah, for example,) where life abounds, the Middle Eastern deserts are sere and lifeless. Hostile. A tough place to celebrate fecundity and moisture.

BOKO--I think that gender is actually increasingly inscribed on the body. I used to think that we were moving toward asexuality, but advertising, for example, seems to be taking us backward, where gender stereotypes once again tell us what a woman or a man is. It's difficult to escape. I can tell you that as a woman raising two girls, I've worked very hard to counter the dominant discourse, not by simply working in binary opposition, but rather by trying to create sites of resistance to it in myriad little interstices.

Frank--faith and the soul are built upon the concept that there can be no proof. You either believe or you don't. I don't. I don't believe that people who believe in souls are imbeciles, but I do believe that prejudice against those of us who are non-religious is real in this country.
LadyMiko-I just don't know enough about the pre-monotheistic religions. Even the Greeks and Romans did not accord men and women equal status, despite their pantheism. But I'm always eager to read something if you have a source you would suggest.
I too read that Prose essay and knew someone around here would have something to add. Here is something from it: "How much simpler it is to tell a community of celibate monks when to go to sleep and get up, and what to do every minute in between, than it is to rein in a teenage boy who wants to go visit his girlfriend. Some politicians have long understood that regimenting sexuality is a time-tested way of maintaining moral authority. And the fear of women and of everything that women represent—the fear of life, of sex, of fecundity, of birth and rebirth and renewal—fosters the kind of death worship that in turn fosters more wars, more killing, more repression, and more pointless misery."

Carter's defection from the church underscores this fact of our condition: Sexism is alive and well. Bloggers need to remember that fact also, rather than breezing over it when some post advances mysogenistic viewpoints. Too often I find the bloggers of this community schizophrenic that way.

And then there is the issue of religious tolerance. I tolerate everybody just fine (although I do not necessarily call myself a believer), but no amount of social pressure from the political correctness police will ever convince me that the subjugation of women is anything but that (for example: a burqa).

I am happy to read your take on the matter, but I am disappointed that you felt it necessary to address the yawners...even more disgusted that they exist at all. If my tolerance is worn thin, it is in that area.
Really excellent post. I'm also a scholar (though of south asian religion) and really enjoyed reading your exegesis of this material. It's something I've thought a lot of myself in regard to the abrahamic faiths. Hinduism and Buddhism have their own complicated, complex relationship with gender, but that's another post for another day!
Faascinating post. Love when you articulate your deepest held passions.

Commenting on Bill S on how powerful the woman's body is in comparison to the men's, he asks why that is not reflected in our religions. I think it is by the smothering of women's power in fear.

Women are the template of the human race--embyrologically we are all female. And we bring forth life which is very dangerous to men's ideas of paternity and how men inherit wealth and land. OF course that needs to be controlled.
GW--It was a great article. Agreed. As to the yawners. I think I'm still thinking about the health care mess. I'm still thinking about an open letter I wrote to Dan Savage in which I criticized him for asking him to vote for Bob Casey in Pennsylvania. Casey, who is strongly anti-abortion, was the Democratic candidate facing Santorum. Santorum was Savage's bete noir because of his infamous homophobia. But, I couldn't understand why Savage didn't get that a man who doesn't like women's bodies isn't going to be crazy about gay men, either, and that working to elect a Democrat like Casey would bite us in the ass. It did. You're right. I shouldn't have to explain myself to the yawners. But I think there are some people who think that we women cry misogyny too much. I happen to think those women are deliberately not paying attention, and at this point in my life, I'd rather they just not read my stuff rather than try to engage them.

GG--I don't know too much about Eastern religions and their views on gender. It would be great to have you post what you think is important. I'd love to read a blog post(s) on such a topic.

o'stephanie--I agree with you. I think fear rules the day when it comes to women's bodies. And we have internalized that fear with our own policing of our bodies--am I too fat? am I sexy enough? Hell, I've wasted enough of my brain cells on such matters that I sometimes think I could have solved some major world problem if I had spent as much time on it as I have on that.
Lordy but I am glad that I wasn't raised in a patriarchal religion, although many falsely believe that Native American society is patriarchal.

We are taught that we are given one singular possession by Wakan Tanka. That possession is our body and we are to return it to Wakan Tanka upon our deaths. We are taught that our homes are gifts from Wakan Tanka and given into the trust of both male and female equally.

I'll take that kind of belief system ahead of most patriarchal religions.
I'll do some digging for you, I still have most of my research material from college, :)

True, that the Greeks and Romans treated women like chattel and the Egyptians did as well- to a lesser extent: they could own business and property, divorce and gain custody of their children, as well as live alone if they had means to do so. Compared to the rest of the Ancient world Egyptian women had more freedom than anywhere else (and dare I say even more than in some parts of the world today) And on an unrelated (kind of) note, I want to point out that they DID NOT practice female genital mutilation.
Combining your wisdom and questioning with that of High Lonesome, I know what I want to believe.

I wish I could take one of your classes someday, I know it would open my eyes to so many paths I haven't traveled. You must spark some amazing discussions with your students.
I will, FLW, but what I do know is my own rabbi, my own temple and my own practice, and that Judaism, unlike many other religions values discussion and dissent (hence the Talmud etc.) Mostly I think the fear of women is the fear of our power. We can reproduce and that is scary stuff.
I have said for years that, if there is a god, it's finest creation is the female human.
Religion is a creation of men for the purpose of control. It's beneficial effects on a societal level are virtually non-existent.

I did enjoy your presentation, here. Thanks.

RATED
It doesnt take much looking at Antiquity to see the "genesis" of monotheism spurted with Platonism and that its early adherents like Pythagoras lived in the equivalent of modern times with women when they could control their own administration. The early Judaic writings are bereft of the misogyny, just as the more believable apocryphal scroll-ettes of the Biblios are. ALL THE MISOGYNY AND WOMAN HATING AND GENERAL HATING WAS ADDED AFTER THE FACT BY LYING FORGING FRAUDING CHURCH FATHERS. Thats how it went down, they wrote them in Anatolia in the 2nd Century and corrupted the early and quite awesome Gnostic texts. Oh, yeah, if you want the truth talk t0 the East, of the Third Rome of Kiev, of today's Bartholomew, Bishop of New Rome, profiled recently on both 60 Minutes and Charlie (i dress like columbo) Rose show, AWESOME interviews with The MAN of the Christian Hour (and last 17 Centuries) a guy who is pro every right out there, only speaks of love... You see, silly American Christians, Christ through his true adherents moved to Constantinople, and, their texts were not corrupt, they went straight from Greek to Slavic, A TRANSLATION SO SUPERIOR TO what became the "Universal" bible that it is a huge joke on you all, your life is fiction, and, Mary was Jesus wife, they had sex and children and got drunk first probably ... Way to go Joshua of Gaililee.

Civilized behavior is defined by equality.
Wow, I had missed that Carter had left his church... I was probably caught up in the 40th anniversary of the moon landing, which was going on at the same time. But that's a really great thing he did.

I'm always fascinated by, for example, concerns about Jesus having bodily functions or other messy details. I had thought the whole purpose of putting him on Earth, at least according to the stories (I'm not religious but did go to Sunday School long ago), was that he should experience what life was like. And if not being able to find enough toilet paper, being taunted by kids at school, or whatever other indignity is part of it, then I'd think that was a proper part of the research. If not, then the story is seemingly pointless. I've frankly never understood the whole miracles thing either, since (a) that's not experiencing life as we experience it and (b) it seems to defy the notion of religion being taken on faith. I had the same problem with shows in the Touched by an Angel category, or It's a Wonderful Life. I mean, if I were actually confronted with an angel that could fly me around and change the world, I might be more believing. But what would that show about faith if in fact I got to see it with my own eyes and knew that, in fact, it was true.
Wow, how interesting to link Scarry's book with Christian text and ideology.

Have you read Reinventing Eve by Kim Chernin? I think you would love her reinterpretation of the Eve myths.
Wow, how interesting to link Scarry's book with Christian text and ideology.

Have you read Reinventing Eve by Kim Chernin? I think you would love her reinterpretation of the Eve myths.
Kent,
I had never thought of whether Christ had had normal bodily functions. The question was first brought to my attention in reading the MALLEUS MALEFICARUM (Hammer of Witches by Kramer and Sprenger, 1486), the witch hunters' manual, which discusses all sorts of important questions as to how evil operates in the world. At one point, kind of on a lark, I used Julia Kristeva's POWERS OF HORROR to read the MM, and some of the points I made were actually quite interesting. But, anyway, just in case you are interested, here is how Kramer and Sprenger discussed Jesus of Nazareth's eating habits: (It's on page 230 of the Montague Summers' translation)

"And we may say as to eating, that in the complete act of eating there are four processes. Mastication in the mouth, swallowing into the stomach, digestion in the stomach, and fourthly, metabolism of the necessary nutriment and ejection of the superfluous. All Angels can perform the first two processes of eating in their assumed bodies, but not the third and fourth; but instead of digesting and ejecting they have another power by which the food is suddenly dissolved in the surrounding matter. In Christ the process of eating was in all respects complete, since He had the nutritive and metabolistic powers; not, be it said, for the purpose of converting food into His own body, for those power were, like His body, glorified; so that the food was suddenly dissolved in His body, as when one throws water on to fire."

Call me a geek, but I used to love to read this stuff, trying to understand the reasoning that went into thinking about how one justified one's faith, and coming up with pseudo-scientific explanations for such matters. The Reformation, of course, took care of a lot of that for many Christians.
lorelei--I haven't read that particular Chernin book. Thanks for the tip. Yes. THE BODY IN PAIN has given me a way of being able to talk about torture, and also a way to understand my own struggles with chronic pain.

Oahu--there are certainly many who believe that it is the bastardization of what happened that has led to the misinterpretation of the original Christian message. And we know there is a long tradition of argument in the Jewish tradition, too. I must admit, I do not know how Muslim scholars handle questions of theology.

Mrs. Raptor. Living here in Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) country, my kids were given quite an education on how their system of governance and religion worked. Fascinating. I need to do more reading about more tribes.

mamoore--I rarely talk about this kind of stuff with my students. We do talk about race, class, and gender when it's appropriate to a text that we are reading, but in general, I don't get to riff on the stuff that was the focus of my dissertation (not completed).

lonnie--it reminds me of that old joke. "God created Adam, and then She went back and corrected her mistake."

Rick--Do you think that religion can't provide some social benefits? What about charitable work? Or the fact that, when it does its job, it is supposed to "comfort the afflicted?" Not arguing with you, just wondering.
I have so much to say, I fear I will say them badly in light of what you have offered here. Excellent post Lorraine. Simply excellent.
Nothing more to be said except, well written and thank you!
"I'd rather stay a woman. Grounded. Of the earth. Messy. Real." Well stated!

This is a bit off the subject, but somewhat related. I grew up in the Catholic faith. As you know, Catholics routinely pray to Mary. Despite the various problems with religion, I think it's wonderful that millions of Catholic men pray to a woman each day. Surely that has some positive effect. I wonder if the equivalent exists in any other major religion. (Just thinking out loud.) Great piece. Happy holidays.
flw:

read some woodman. please. and if you have read her, read her again. quote her, teach her, stop re-inventing what she has made clear far beyond anyone else in our age. she is the best in re-introducing sophia. she will help you with your anger. it only bleeds your courage. blessings
Ben Sen,
I don't know to whom you are referring. Woodman? Forgive my ignorance, but I don't recognize the name. Thanks. lb
Man's interpretation of God is the issue, isn't it?
Rated
My father always said, "Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see." So...I never listened to this crap.

Great post! It's whip snap day on my blog. So...1 rate. No whip snaps. xox
Hi, flw,

You ask, “Rick--Do you think that religion can't provide some social benefits? What about charitable work? Or the fact that, when it does its job, it is supposed to "comfort the afflicted?" Not arguing with you, just wondering.”

I thought you might have been familiar enough with some of my posts to know that I see no value in religion whatsoever.

Your question refers to “charitable work” and “comforting the afflicted”. Neither of those goals requires the corruption that is religion. Clearly, charitable work does not. As for religion comforting the afflicted, that is only in cases where people have been indoctrinated into religion and can’t break free of it. If they are not indoctrinated in the first place, then comforting them is equally effectively achieved through other means.

It is important to distinguish between believing there is more to reality than meets the eye and believing the silliness of the three major Abrahamic religions and the other major religions. Beyond that, the destructive, divisive nature of those religions unquestionably cancels and then exceeds any benefits one might wish to ascribe them.

I count religion as an equal with nationalism and racism in its overall impedance to human progress. Your essay offers solid evidence in support of that allegation.
I have often reflected how ironic it is that so many people - and my mom and her friends were definitely among them - who admire institutional religious leaders for being (or claiming to be) celibate. Remember all the pedophile and sexual misconduct scandals recently plaguing the Church? Three of the priests from my parish church/school were among those accused of repeated abuses with young boys. I knew of a few instances myself - a boy confiding to me that the younger priest of our parish was attempting to lure him and some other altar boys into the shower. My point is, my mom and her friends and anyone else admiring that priests are celibate had it all wrong. Those priests found it easy to go with out women. They weren't going without sex though. And they all lied each other up and kept the pedophiles circulating, moving them from new hunting ground to new hunting ground without any thought at all for the tremendously destructive psychological damage their sexual crimes inflicted.

I see religious figures as unscrupulous men who stir the basest fears of the population in order to gain in influence and power, and dress themselves in flowing robes and finery to reinforce the superstitious notion that they have some sort of connection to and privilege with a higher being that the rest of us do not. So I no longer bestir myself to be angry or even indignant when such a ones as they try to convince me that I'm dirty, impure, less intelligent, less capable, less important etc because of the plumbing I have between my legs.

But here is what I have to say to all the religious men who believe that it is a Divine imperative for man to be esteemed above women in all life endeavors:

"I don't believe in God, but you certainly seem like an authoritative source on the deepest, most innermost thoughts of the Creator of the Universe. So thanks for sharing your viewpoint on how things are going to be when the Creator finally gets around to putting you in charge of me."
Amen. That's all. Just amen. Well, that and thank you. Outstanding.
Lakes, belief is one thing, just a silly thing. The facts are simple, the original Christians were NeoPlatonic jews who went to straight to Antioch when things started to get hot in Jerusulem. They, like their Pythagorean predecessors and so many others lived lives of equality of love so exemplary that did not involve nonsense miracles or idiotic resurrection, just love, equality between men and women, care for the sick and elderly ... you know, good clean living. Well, that really contrasted with a lot of harsh freaks who believed in Apollo and left babies they didnt want out in the woods ... so, people really saw how cool these christian hippies were and, just like in the 60s in US and Europe, lots of people started hanging out with them. Then, the Romans sacked the Temple in 70AD and all of a sudden all the scroll-ettes were about the horrible enemy and the FORGING FRAUDING CHRISTIAN FATHERS took this opportunity to write a bunch of crap like Revelation, which was NOT in the first Bible, and gave rise to the nonsense scroll-ettes that Luke and Mathew would crib from Mark and add a bunch of stupid idiotic superstitious were mad at the Romans crap to ... and so here we are. Voila!

Now, with Muhammad it was different, Islam is all about ending hundreds of years of warfare in Arabia so Women had no role, no chance, no nothing ... The Abbasid helped somewhat later on, Spain too ... but, the ones still in Mess-o-Potamia, they are still pulling the misogyny crap too ... auwe
And, as has been pointed out many times, the hatred of women is transferred to the hatred of the earth. Or exploitation rather than hatred, perhaps.

It's been suggested that some of the antipathy comes from the idea that in giving us birth, women also give us death - with a bunch of suffering in between (thanks a lot!)

I rather suspect, tho, that we all overthink this matter, and that it is a simple existential thing - men bully women BECAUSE THEY CAN. They're stronger, they have more opportunities to band together and support each other in their bullying. And might makes right in base nature.

Re the human race, both male & female, being made in God's (non-existant) image - the current pope made a pronouncement a couple years ago about how God is Mother as well as Father. It disappeared w.o. a trace, as far as I know, and of course made no difference on the (hah!) ground.

Re Eve and the apple - at our Wiccan harvest sabbat we have a bit of ceremony around the apple, cutting it open to show the seeds of the future, blah blah. After which (if I'm running the show, at least) I pass the pieces around and urge people to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. All hail the serpent! (OR - since we're here, let's make the most of it!)
I love your posts because they make me love being a woman.
I've been married practically forever to the same woman and I would not have been able to say that if we didn't see ourselves as equal but possessing different talents. We became two people with flaws into one perfect union.
T.S. -- beautiful thing to say.
TS...we disagree so much philosophically...that I want to take this opportunity to applaud your post. Like you...I acknowledge how lucky I am in a partner. My wife...(Nancy and I are not officially married, we decided not to allow any gods or the state to have a say in our relationship)...and I have been together for almost 30 years now...and I thank my lucky stars each day for this being the case.

We see so many people on this site bemoaning their relationships...it is a pleasure to see someone like you mentioning how rewarding thier relationship is.

Thanks.
Damn...I hate when I misspel "their!"
I don't remember the title of one her former books about muses but she convinced me that was not a role I really wanted to play.
Rick,
I appreciate your point of view. I am not religious, either, but I just wanted clarification of your views. I do believe that people are capable of behaving compassionately, ethically, and in the interests of their neighbors without the threat of heaven or hell as the carrot/stick. And I weep at the strictures that certain religions have put on women so much so that women come to believe they are not whole and entire, but only a partial person.
Sandra,
My grandmother was excommunicated from the Catholic church. I never really knew the reason why, but she never had anything good to say about priests, and she said all the time that they were not the chaste men that they were made out to be. I wonder sometimes, whether she had first-hand knowledge of that.
Three movies: Osama, about a young Muslim girl in Afghanistan, The Magdalene Sisters, about Catholic young women in Ireland, and Trembling Before G*D, about gays and lesbians in the Orthodox Jewish community, all have shown me the uncompassionate side of religion toward some of its most vulnerable.
That, and the reading I did.
That, and the fact that I listen to religious radio sometimes, just to make sure I'm not misjudging people.
It's not for me. I'm so grateful for people on this site like Gwendolyn, who has found a way to talk about her past and has emerged whole.
Anyway.
Thanks.
Born and raised a Catholic, I left organized religion behind a long time ago. I can think of no entity that has done more harm to the world than organized religions with their own agendas. Neither God nor Jesus Christ nor any other spiritual being labeled women inferior. Their human representatives -- i.e. popes, bishops, priests, rabbis, Shia clergymen, etal -- are responsible for the misinterpretation of the written word. Bear in mind that those very words are but a story told by supposedly holy men of the time. The bible was never meant to be taken literally and, in fact, is probably the best piece of public relations ever written.

Religion is responsible for the negative connotation surrounding sex, especially when teachings preach that the only good reason for sex is procreation. Again, man talking not God. Religion and fear are the best method of crowd control.

As for a woman's place in society, religion is once again responsible for keeping us down...not God...but his so-called representatives. Do women really represent such a big threat that we must be subjugated until the end of time?

I can't change the world, but I can choose how I see myself. I don't want to be equal. Since the day I was born, I have been superiorl. Women are the perpetuators of life, we are the nurturers and protectors. We are stronger emotionally, live longer and possess more humanity of heart and soul than our male counterparts.

Don't for a minute think that I don't love men. I damn straight do, but I have never regretted being a woman...and I love the view from my pedestal. What better place to rule from could there be?
R
Ramesh, I will never, ever forget my Kupuna Piianaia, one of the best teachers ever, who said, while lecturing on Geography, "and for you boys who nevah see one girl yet, just go climb Koko Head look down."

It takes a lot of hormones to create a new being, nothing to be scared of but its ez to see how Ancient misogynists would try and use Nature against their own Mothers- auwe
Stupid people like easy answers.

Religion provides easy answers, that is, until you actually study it, at which point you realize that it doesn't, it provides difficult answers, much more difficult than just saying, "Meh, I don't think I'll worry, care, believe, etc. that there's anything in the universe that could possibly be more complicated than I am, and if there is, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with me."

Stupid people are drawn to religion because it gives them a place, it tells them what to think, it gives them nice bedtime stories to think of when life gets hard. And sadly, stupid people are prone to violence to defend their inaccurate and misguided worldviews.

This continual religion bashing is a straw man's argument. You can always find a leader that will abuse power. You can always find people that have horrible psychological problems with their bodies and sexuality and that of the opposite sex. Well, sometimes those people end up being bishops. It happens. It's bad, but were things really any better for women, even comparatively, in Soviet Russia, bastion of atheism?

As for the Old Testament, well, it's no longer applicable. It's a shining example of what happens when evolution takes its course. We have evolved as a species and God blessed us with the New Testament and speaks to a coming day when the equality that you all seem to crave so dearly will come to pass in another shining moment of the evolution of our species.

If things are bad, it's because people made them that way, not God. We have failed him/her/it, not the other way around.
But, Existence of Contradiction, if, in fact, evolution has occurred and the Old Testament has been replaced with the New Testament, then what do you make of Islam, which incorporates both the OT, the NT, and then adds the further revelations given to Muhammed? The Qu'aran makes many statements that are complimentary of women, and yet, the interpretation of that has led to bad treatment.

If religion is moving forward, and the NT is an improvement of the OT, what to make of Paul? In Corinthians, he says
"Let the women keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a disgrace for a woman to speak in church."

This hardly strikes me as pointing to a shining day of further evolution.
Lorraine,
I hold to the belief that if there is a God, God could not possibly be as stupid, misogynistic, xenophobic or bigoted as those who are often found “worshipping.”

You’ve written a wonderfully insightful piece here and seasoned it with extremely thoughtful quotations.

If we are indeed created beings, the question of female inferiority is clearly laid to rest by the skill and composition of your article.

Rated and appreciated.
There are a few not so nice things in the New Testament about how men should treat women, it's true. The thing is, none of them are in the gospels. The rest of the New Testament should not be ignored, but you also have to know what you're reading.

It's really a cultural thing that Paul is stating, and it's important to remember that Paul is not the son of God. I don't think he's stating that he thinks it is a disgrace for a woman to speak in church, I think he's stating that it just was, that's the way things were, and he was ok with it, because he didn't see as Jesus saw, that this could be something that needed improvement. Jesus only had three years preaching to us, he couldn't help us fix all our problems all at once. He did what he could, what we needed at the time.

So why didn't he address this? Why didn't Paul see as Jesus might have seen and realize that women have important things to add as well? I think you have to look at how people lived. You, obviously, know vastly more about feminism than I do, but I have to wonder, how do you have feminism in the way we have it today without things like birth control and modern medicine? This is of an age where if a man loved a woman there was a very good chance that his love for her would bring her death in childbirth. I think it's very reasonable to expect that in a situation like that, men's feelings towards women, and their desire for them, would be complex and fraught with guilt and shame. While I believe that pious men of any age respect and love women and eschew the abuse you decry, I can see how men would need a place they could think and speak uninterrupted by the conflicting nature of their relationship with women. Perhaps that is the disgrace that Paul speaks of. Not that it is a disgrace for a woman to have an opinion or knowledge and to share it, but that she disgraces the meeting by not allowing men to share their thoughts, uninterrupted by their complex thoughts about women. That's how I think about it, and why I'm completely ok with female pastors today. That problem has been solved (for the most part) with medicine and science. Men's thoughts about women no longer need be so conflicted.

Also, if you look at the entire chapter that your verse is included in, 1 Corinthians 14, this chapter is principally about how Christians should orient their worship ceremony. It's one of the most purely administrative chapters of the Bible. It's about maintaining order in church services. Outside of the service, it would be perfectly reasonable for different social rules to apply.
The notion that somehow the Old Testament no longer applies to Christians is absurd…and the notion most definitely does not comport with the teachings of either Jesus or Paul.

Paul did suggest some adjustments to the dietary restrictions and to the rite of circumcision…BUT NOTHING ELSE.

Christians consider the Old Testament as no longer applying not because of doctrinal arguments…but because it exposes the religion for the travesty that it is.

All said with love in my heart for Christians, of course. I say: Hate the hypocrisy…not the hypocrite!
Frank just confused me. The 'old testament' is the Torah with some stuff removed, and it wasn't written for Christians in the first place.
Robin…Christians profess to worship the god of the Bible. That god is described in the Old Testament. The OT tells us what pleases that god; what offends that god; and what the god expects of us humans.

It also (supposedly) tells us that a messiah would come…which the Christians assume to be Jesus.

They are as bound by the Old Testament as any Jew.

I deal with this issue in depth in my thread: Old Testament—are its laws applicable to Christianity. Here is an attempt at a link…but sometimes the links do not finish up. The link should end: …are its laws applicable to christianity


http://open.salon.com/blog/frank_apisa/2008/12/22/old_testament--are_its_laws_applicable_to_christianity
FLW:

woodman is the most eloquent articulator of the impact of the patriarchy and the beginning of the new matriarchy, and she does it without anger or rancor. she is the prophet of the new millenium.
Ben,
I still don't know who she is. What's her first name? What field is she in?
Thanks.
Marion Woodman is the most profound articulator and analyst of the "patriarchy" and "matriarchy" of any living author. Nobody else I've ever seen come close, though many give lip service to the "idea" in the service of their ideology. She's Canadian. If you're going to consign her to a field, I guess it's Jungian psychology, but even that is reductionist at this point.
Let me add this about Marion, or worn you: after reading her, or listening to her tapes (she is a profound speaker with a vast comprehension) it becomes difficult to take what most have to say about the sexes as anything other than projections. She is seminal figure who basically uses world mythology as her "technique." As is true of many who go where few or none have gone before she is not easily understood or disseminated. I had the pleasure of taking a number of seminars with her and Robert Bly in the 90's which changed my thinking on the topic entirely the more I studied it. She is one of the few I've run across in a lifetime that pays off all the attention you give to her, and enriches understanding rather that puts it in a nice little box where one can pretend they know something and be duped into taking satisfaction for that. After you and I and 99 per cent of the popularizers today are long gone, future generations of thinkers will be wondering at our stupidity at not recognizing her contributions while she was alive.
Yes and yes and yes. Why is it such a constant in so many'organized' religions that defining/overdefining women and their place in the cosmic scheme of things is a big priority? And why is that place so often constrained and meager?

Child of the 50's that I am, I expect to have a few things to say about
being raised female in the time of Father Knows Best.

Great post!
What a travesty of Scriptures! Given that man and woman are both created 1) from the soil of moist ground/flesh and 2) in the "image of God", i.e., born again of the Spirit (like Adam and Eve), God does not contradict himself by considering women inferior to men in what is designed to be a common, indivisible union of divine being between the two (Matt. 19: 1-12)! In any case, men are more accountable for the failure than women (Eph. 5: 21-33).
What an impressive post, Lorraine. One of your best. This issue has plagued me my whole life. I think I need to get Prose's book. I have only been in the process of accepting my female body for the last six years or so. It's still a process since I was so indoctrinated to think that my body was evil.

It's actually nice to know that I'm not alone or crazy for having these issues. It's awesome to have such an eloquent woman such as yourself to speak for us. We've long needed a voice. You have a remarkable voice and you always use it to heal, restore, educate, and love.

Thank you.
I absolutely realize there are many ways this article can be taken. I take the role of the woman in a religious standpoint and my personal thought is that God himself turned to a woman - Mary to be the mother of Jesus.... what higher role is there in humanity than to be the mother of Christ himself. Why is it that we allow other peoples interpretation of the bible, which was written in a different time to have so much power on us. God himself gave the biggest role in mankind to a woman. We are the ones who birth and raise these children, these women and men and WE have allowed for centuries for little boys to turn into men that treat women badly. We were their creator... we brought them into this world. There should be no discussion of who is better or worse, as we are all created in the SAME image and likeness of God... the fact that people choose to turn that into something else is not GOD'S word... but their own. The bible was written by human's... their interpretation. Again, we blame GOD for the way a human being acts. So - I do adore my womanly body and I do wish it was thinner, better, tighter.... but, I in no way believe that God intended us to be the lesser of the two. I believe through the centuries we - WOMEN - MOTHER'S - WIVES - SISTERS - we had so much influence on the MEN- FATHER'S = BROTHER'S - HUSBAND'S in our lives. Yet, we continue to go back to the bible making women bad and evil.... GOD did not do that - the human did.... I say it is time for people to give GOD a break and realize it is the human's perspective that has warped so many wonderful things. I have never read or understood about the Muslim religion, but I have been told by Muslim people I know that Allah would NEVER want the violence that goes on now and that they are a peaceful religion.... again, the warped sense, comes from warped points of view.....

So - women need to realize the role they were given in humanity.... MOTHER OF GOD! doesn't sound like to me that God had little vested in women - sounds like he put eternity in her hands...

I am not a zealot... I am actually a very moderate Greek Orthodox Christian, but I realize that our bible and the stories of the bible have been interpreted word for word... and that is not what was intended....

It is only the body of a woman that could bring forth the perfection of a loving and living God.

Thanks for listening - great article, made me think!
Vicki
The first two of the last three sentences of this posting speak volumes.

Rated!
Gender roles doesn't mean that men are better than women in everything. Each gender can have its place without anyone being sexist. Men and women have natural strengths and weaknesses which are inherent in them generally speaking.

Islamically each thing you have is balanced with an extra responsibility -- men traditionally lead the household but not only does that mean that they pay the bills, it also means they are going to be held to more account for all the ways the lead their family in this life.

We see societies run as hierarchies even democratic societies have this. Men being head of household/bread winner etc. doesn't mean they don't consult with their spouse before making decisions. If there isn't a designated leader in many situations there come many subsequent power struggles and history proves this.

On a side note - the Islamic view on sex is completely in opposition to the Christian one which sees sin in pleasure. Muslims note that most prophets had wives and children and this is considered a natural part of life. The only thing which is considered sinful is sex outside of marriage (obviously). Within marriage it is actually something which people are rewarded for.
Gender roles doesn't mean that men are better than women in everything. Each gender can have its place without anyone being sexist. Men and women have natural strengths and weaknesses which are inherent in them generally speaking.

Islamically each thing you have is balanced with an extra responsibility -- men traditionally lead the household but not only does that mean that they pay the bills, it also means they are going to be held to more account for all the ways the lead their family in this life.

We see societies run as hierarchies even democratic societies have this. Men being head of household/bread winner etc. doesn't mean they don't consult with their spouse before making decisions. If there isn't a designated leader in many situations there come many subsequent power struggles and history proves this.

On a side note - the Islamic view on sex is completely in opposition to the Christian one which sees sin in pleasure. Muslims note that most prophets had wives and children and this is considered a natural part of life. The only thing which is considered sinful is sex outside of marriage (obviously). Within marriage it is actually something which people are rewarded for.