fingerlakeswanderer

fingerlakeswanderer
Birthday
May 09
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cassandra
Bio
Lorraine Berry lives in the Fingerlakes region of New York, although it's her transplanted home. On weekends, she can be heard throughout the area, cheering on her beloved Manchester City F.C. When not writing at Does This Make Sense? or Talking Writing, she can be found hiking with her two dogs, hanging out with her two daughters, eating what her beloved Rob has cooked for her, or teaching creative writing at a small college in the area.

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APRIL 11, 2011 9:08AM

Beating Up Women in Burqas

Rate: 13 Flag

 The fight has begun, and it's not pretty.

  Police-face-a-niqab-veile-006

French police began arresting women wearing burqas as France's sumptuary laws against the garments went into effect today. Sarkozy's center-right government, which has in the past six months, also shipped thousands of Roma people back to Eastern Europe in mass deportations, has now gone after women who wear the burqa or hajib in public. 

Le Monde is reporting this morning that women were arrested in a demonstration in front of Notre Dame Cathedral. As one police official said, even approaching these women for wearing the veil is going to create a potential for violence. 

I have written previously about sumptuary laws, and what I said then, applies now.

The control of what women can and cannot wear is directly related to the rights that women possess in a given culture. Ironically, the French Republic has declared that it will not tolerate this affront to French values. That one "NE PAS "VIVRE LA RÉPUBLIQUE À VISAGE DÉCOUVERT" -- live in a republic with one's face covered. 

When the state steps in, declares women's dress to be a thing to be controlled, I am reminded that women are still "less than" in society. Even though the intent of the French Parliamentarians is some effort to "liberate" Muslim women.

As was said this morning in France:

Le secrétaire général adjoint du Syndicat des commissaires de police, Manuel Roux, a d'ores et déjà souligné sur France Inter que cette loi allait être "infiniment difficile à appliquer" et "infiniment peu appliquée". "On va encore une fois considérer que les policiers sont en échec", a-t-il regretté. "Très clairement, c'est pas aux policiers d'aller faire du zèle", a-t-il déclaré, mais devant "des cas qui sont outrageusement provocateurs, on ne va pas rien faire non plus (...) on va lui faire comprendre, on va faire de la pédagogie (...) on va essayer de la convaincre", a-t-il expliqué.

Il rappelle que "la simple intervention de la police, par endroits, suffit à semer le trouble. Je n'ose même pas imaginer quand on va s'intéresser à une femme voilée (...) dans un milieu sensible avec des hommes qui sont très fiers, et des policiers qui auront fait le premier pas et ne pourront pas reculer."

"I cannot imagine that this is in the interests of the veiled women"

I believe that's the point of the Sarkozy's government's plan. Women's interests be damned. 

 

While I would love to live in a world where religion has no sway, where women are free to be who they are, I also recognize that the cost of keeping one's face unveiled is to be constantly judged. When my daughter went to India, within 3 days she was keeping her hair and most of her face covered at all times because when she went bare-headed, she was frequently accosted by Indian men who assumed a blonde-haired American girl must be a prostitute. 

Many will argue that Muslim women are forced to dress this way by fathers and husbands and brothers. So, if what do we think will happen now? Will those same controlling male relatives force their burqa-wearing female kin out in the streets in order to foment trouble? Or will they force the women to stay in the house at all times, confining them to house arrest so that they are not arrested outside?

Does the state really think it can force a minority of women to suddenly change what their particular sect of religion tells them they must do? And why is the fight over women's wear? Will France suddenly decide that Orthodox Jewish men can no longer cover their heads, and wear heavy beards? Do these not also obscure the face?

Alas, it will never come to that. Somehow, I don't imagine that laws regarding what men will wear are ever going to come to the table. 

For women, still, it doesn't matter what we wear. Choice or no choice, we are judged by what we put on our bodies.

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There's a bunch of spam in front of this post in the feed, so I'm commenting on my own post.
"Many will argue that Muslim women are forced to dress this way by fathers and husbands and brothers. So, if what do we think will happen now? Will those same controlling male relatives force their burqa-wearing female kin out in the streets in order to foment trouble? Or will they force the women to stay in the house at all times, confining them to house arrest so that they are not arrested outside? "

A very controversial subject. We cannot work for women's rights in countries where women are not educated, subject to FGM and treated like chattel. Working from outside we are at a distinct disadvantage. We can work for women's rights in the West.

I am opposed to burquas in the West. It represents a declaration of "I will not be assimilated" into your culture." When I travel in a Muslim country I practice "When in Rome....". I do no insult the local culture by rejecting it to its face.

A burqua makes a woman a shadow...i­t makes her invisible.­...inconse­quential..­.a ghost of no substance, ...unfit to be seen.....and less than a man. A burqua puts her in her place.

R
As usual, you weave so many important points into this specific issue. I'll read more about this today. Your point about women still being made "lesser than" by the way they dress is important, as it works in myriad ways. Do I feel a little sad for the teenage girls of Ukranian refugees who have immmigrated to Western Mass.? Sure - because I know what they must endure at the public schools they attend. Mostly, by sophmore year, you notice them shedding the long skirts and head scarves. And I'm sure they are then called "sluts".
But criminalizing wearing a certain attire is just a very dangerous and slippery slope. Are Sikhs allowed their headgear? Christians their crosses? It is mind boggling.
You say this: I believe that's the point of the Sarkozy's government's plan. Women's interests be damned.

and I think I don't agree. You and I agree about the ban itself but not on the rationale behind it, apparently. I do not think it was created to put women down. I think it was created to put extremist religion down and to liberate women. I agree that the outcome may be to put women down, but I know too many people in France who are in favor of the ban and I know their reasons.
There are good points here, and I think we are all in agreement. I hate the burqa. I also hate going to Coney Island in July and seeing Orthodox Jewish women who are wearing wigs and long sleeves--just makes me want to weep for them. Same when I went to Asissi and saw the nuns in habits.
I don't remember: has France also outlawed the wearing of crucifixes? If the intention is to remove religion from the public square, count me in. But when you declare one religion as the one that cannot show its face in the public streets, then I start wondering what the motives are.
Torrito, I think it's condescending to assume that all women who wear the burqa in public are uneducated. I do believe they are participating in their own oppression, but so are many Americans. I know, apples and oranges, but how many poor white people vote Republican?
Okay. Back on topic. I would like to see a world where religion is practiced at home and not in the street. Lainey--you and I both know what happens, even in western countries, when the church is allowed to impose its will on the civitas.
I'm sorry this is so scattered. I have to leave for work right now and I'm trying to pound this out. I do think this whole subject is just a mess---and while it may very well be that the French government is doing it out of concern, this is the same French gov't that deported the Roma people as if they were cattle.
There are good points here, and I think we are all in agreement. I hate the burqa. I also hate going to Coney Island in July and seeing Orthodox Jewish women who are wearing wigs and long sleeves--just makes me want to weep for them. Same when I went to Asissi and saw the nuns in habits.
I don't remember: has France also outlawed the wearing of crucifixes? If the intention is to remove religion from the public square, count me in. But when you declare one religion as the one that cannot show its face in the public streets, then I start wondering what the motives are.
Torrito, I think it's condescending to assume that all women who wear the burqa in public are uneducated. I do believe they are participating in their own oppression, but so are many Americans. I know, apples and oranges, but how many poor white people vote Republican?
Okay. Back on topic. I would like to see a world where religion is practiced at home and not in the street. Lainey--you and I both know what happens, even in western countries, when the church is allowed to impose its will on the civitas.
I'm sorry this is so scattered. I have to leave for work right now and I'm trying to pound this out. I do think this whole subject is just a mess---and while it may very well be that the French government is doing it out of concern, this is the same French gov't that deported the Roma people as if they were cattle.
This sounds pretty prejudiced to me. My guess is these women will no longer be allowed to leave their house- not for fear of arrest- but because of the religion's strict rules against allowing men to see them without a burka.
Here in Mexico, it is men who cover their faces. And it is state-sanctioned: among those who do this are the federal police. They do it for their own security, but there is no doubt that it lends itself to impunity and group-think (far more dangerous to women than burqas).

But doesn't France celebrate carnival? Are there no cultural celebrations that entail the wearing of masks? Will these be banned too? If not, why not?
Lorraine, this is of course a moment when I am not happy to have been right...I said all this over the burqa would lead to exactly what is happening now. My feminist friends railed against this veil! And I'll say again: when women can wear what they want from burqua to thong, live as they wish, work in the field they choose, we will be truly free. xox
great post, lorraine.
for some it's too simple: burqa = bad
therefore illegalizing burqas = good.
thanks for going further.
FLW, a very thought-inspiring post, especially when combined with your previous one on sumptuary laws which I read, along with most of the intelligent comments (there were too many!), with great interest. I sympathize with burqa wearing french residents now caught between a rock and a hard place, the most oppressed of which may now find their lives confined further to the home, or imprisonment. While this law is not considering their experience, it might be representing its culture. Which is not muslim. I do find it odd when immigrants don't expect some lifestyle change to go along with their decision to leave their birth country. Whether that decision was voluntary or not. And in all non-western culture, showing your face in public is part of a social norm regardless of gender, st least enough of it for some identification. In today's age of terrorism, which muslim extremists have played a large part in, this aspect of not hiding your identity has become a question of security too. Somehow a cartoon character's costume helps mitigate the fear somewhat, but others face forward and visible! All other option - scarf, wig, full body dress or sparkles is personal. There is a social aspect to life, and is one wants to escape that there are ways to.
i just want to add, I do not at all agree with the way the french police are handling this though. but how should they? a quandary for me.
"I would like to see a world where religion is practiced at home and not in the street."

Amen Sister!!!
Great post......lots to consider here. I have to admit that I have felt really really angry when I see these woman covered head-to-toe and walking behind their husbands and 12-year old sons.

I simply don't understand it. That's the long and short of it. Why would these women tolerate this shit?

Perhaps because it makes sense to them? They probably wonder how *I* tolerate so much tequila...................but it makes sense to me.

Yeah, I don't have any answers here, except to say that criminalizing religious clothing is not the way to go.
"When the state steps in, declares women's dress to be a thing to be controlled, I am reminded that women are still "less than" in society."

yes. yes. yes. yes.
society has the right to regulate dress, that's why women cover their nipples, men do not. i think you would be arrested for 'causing a public nuisance' or 'public indecency.'

more important in my view is respecting the customs of the land. i presume you have noticed that western news reporters of the female type cover their heads in moslem lands? they have mastered simple courtesy.

the burka is a symbol of male domination, not a requirement of observant islam. i would be amazed that women did not support this policy of france, if i had not seen occasional examples before of rabid and dysfunctional 'feminism.'
I believe that part of the "arrests" actually include fining the male in the family or some other punishment for them. It's always a tough thing, when we decide between what is culturally acceptable and what we don't. I don't think there really is anything such as human rights, in that it seems somehow unimportant for most countries to either recognize them or uphold them. Just like with the Children's Rights, the US didn't sign the treaty, but most countries who have signed on don't respect or enforce them.
The missing element is the rule of the streets. Whenever I've been in a country or a quarter (like Pigalle, in Paris) where women traditionally cover up, I've been harassed on the street. In Jordan, I had boys who looked like they could conceivably be my grandchildren hoot at me or comment on my body (from a car, I doubt they figured out my age). It's really unpleasant.

And, quite likely, the men who want wives and daughters covered up do it partly because they know what the streets are like. They know that an uncovered woman is treated like fair game for any kind of low level harassment.

It would be no greater infringement on social liberty to ban harassment on the streets. And then the fathers and brothers would feel the streets were safe for their wives, sisters and daughters. And so would the women.
I wish this was on the cover. This is a fantastic post. I think I wish that religion wasn't practiced anywhere but that might be considered greedy. I also agree that this is a complex issue and your points are difficult to argue with. I absolutely hate that these women are getting arrested. As always, I appreciate your passionate and logical support of women.
As long as the world's major "religions" are actually political organizations run by men, women will not be treated as fully equal. To argue that any group is religious when no women have an equal role in their mythology or story seems irrational. Christianity, with Father/Son but no Mother/Daughter is as guilty as any other profitable religious organization.

Wellesley Magazine published an article by a Muslim student explaining why she and other Muslim students had chosen to cover their hair, although they had not done so when they first entered the college. They felt it made their identity as Muslims more obvious, and they identified with their religion.
As a woman at the other end of the scale living in Saudi Arabia I see it a slightly different way. Although I live in a relatively relaxed part of the country and generally do not have to cover my hair or face I am treated a certain way because of this; with overt disapproval and disdain.

If I lived in a stricter area, such as the capital, I would be forced to cover my hair to adhere to their cultural and religious beliefs.

When in Western countries, like France, why shouldn't Islamic women (and men in my opinion) have to adhere to the culture?

A great post though and a very balanced arguement. r