I just bypassed that blog when I saw the title. I think it has been agreed that we've seen enough from Abu Ghraib and the imagination of us "grown ups" can do the rest.
Rated - I told you Frank, I'm with you on this man.

I thought we were done with this unwinnable argument. Too bad. Am bypassing like KOB. . .

I usually like reading Dennis' point of view, but I didn't realize that he deleted comments. OS sensors take themselves way too seriously and are best suited writing elsewhere.

By the way (are you listening Behind Blue Eyes) someone really needs to make a list of all the comment deleting lightweights around here so that rest of us know who not to bother with. You can apparently add Dennis to that list, along with Bill Beck/Magnus101 and Critical Mess.

All that and I actually somewhat agree with Dr. Loo's position... although more along the lines of how President Carter described it on CNN: "“Most of his [Obama's] supporters were hoping that he would be much more open in the revelation of what we’ve done in the past. But he’s made a decision with which I really can’t contend, that he doesn’t want to resurrect the past, he doesn’t want to punish those who are guilty of perpetrating what I consider crimes against our own laws and against our own Constitution, and the revelation of those pictures might very well inflame further animosity against our country, causing some harm to our soldiers. So I don’t agree with him, but I certainly don’t criticize him for making that decision.”

Edgar---Carter's quote is beautiful. Thanks for that.

Thank you, Blue and Chicago Guy.

Blue…we are gonna stand shoulder to shoulder on this…and I am not giving up. If Loo won’t allow me to comment in his threads…I guess I just have to do it this way…which I hate. But do it, I will.

Edgar…good quote…and from Carter, yet…a guy I underestimated for a long time.

Fact is, I can agree with Loo in part…but at some point people have to acknowledge that the decisions have to be made somewhere…and the Oval Office is where that is.

Frankly, on the question of the release of the photos…specifically…I think absolutely no good whatsoever comes from that…and a great deal of harm MAY come as a result. I think the insistence of people like Loo on the photos are the greatest evidence that they are not interested in helping America recover from the disgusting excesses of the last eight years…but are instead interested in ego satisfaction and probably some hidden interest in trying to actually trash America.

The big lie. We all know how effective it is. Tell ‘em you are doing what you are doing to help heal America in the eyes of the world…but it just ain’t so. I think Loo is working in exactly the opposite direction on that.

if your comments weren't so combative and filled with profanity, i might agree with your sentiment here. i don't know what you would or did write on loo's blog, but if you're mad at that censorship, why aren't you mad about the secrecy around crimes committed by our servicemen?

truth matters. conversations should include details, even those we find offensive.

Kind-of-blue: I can't believe you're agreeing with Frank here. If this was George W Bush defying the Appeals Court decision forcing the admin to release the photos- both you and Frank would be (rightly) up in arms. If you guys are liberals then you need to stand up for liberalism, not partisan advantage.

Bstrangly wrote:

“if your comments weren't so combative and filled with profanity, i might agree with your sentiment here.”

Ok, B…here is a link to the thread where Loo banned me from posting in his threads.
http://open.salon.com/blog/dennis_loo/2009/05/05/another_swine_seeking_to_spread_its_flu

Read every word I wrote…and come back here and tell me honestly that you think I was being unnecessarily or inordinately combative…or that my posts where “filled with profanity.” HINT: They weren’t…not by a long shot on either count.

You wrote: “ i don't know what you would or did write on loo's blog, but if you're mad at that censorship, why aren't you mad about the secrecy around crimes committed by our servicemen?”

What on earth makes you think there is any “secrecy around crimes committed by our servicemen???” It has been front page news for years, Stangely.

I am furious that we did some of the things we did…and I would love to skin the people responsible…but Obama, and I think rightly so, has decided we are going to handle this more deliberately than some people like Loo feel is appropriate. I side with Obama…and not Loo.

“truth matters. conversations should include details, even those we find offensive.”

Not sure of your point here…but Obama (and many, many of his advisors in the military) have determined that releasing any more photos will do the United States (and its attempts to rehabilitate itself from the Bush years) NO GOOD…and may in fact, do a great deal of harm.

Do you get that????

Icemilkcoffee...you wrote: “Kind-of-blue: I can't believe you're agreeing with Frank here. If this was George W Bush defying the Appeals Court decision forcing the admin to release the photos- both you and Frank would be (rightly) up in arms. If you guys are liberals then you need to stand up for liberalism, not partisan advantage.”

I am not a liberal…and I am not a Democrat. I am not about to “stand up for liberalism” nor am I looking for “partisan advantage.”

I am supporting Obama in the decisions he is making…in part, because I agree with many of them…and in part, because I think that is the best way to help the rehabilitation I see needed.

I wish you would join our side.

Great post, Frank. Rated in spades.

Dennis Loo should be disparaged not only for his deleting comments thing, but rather for the lunacy of his views.

I, for example, love deleting comments. It's like spring housecleaning. But yours? Never.

Thanks, Gordon.

For sure no one who knows us is going to accuse you of agreeing with me here because we two always agree on things. And I am really happy that being on opposite sides of so many issues doesn’t interfere with being on the same side when it is appropriate.

You’ve mentioned before that you delete comments (of others, of course)…and I still think that is not the best way to handle things in a forum of this sort. But when someone deletes…and that someone is saying stuff you intend to comment on…then it becomes bullshit. Which, as you can see, is the reason I have to handle my disagreements with Loo this way.

Anyway…my thoughts throughout this response were focused on subject/verb number agreement. Damn, I hope I done good! ;-)

actually frank, i was referring to comments you made specifically to me, in conversation on this post here:
http://open.salon.com/blog/sl_rose/2009/04/20/i_feel_bad_about_my_president

Bstrangely, you wrote:

“actually frank, i was referring to comments you made specifically to me, in conversation on this post here:
http://open.salon.com/blog/sl_rose/2009/04/20/i_feel_bad_about_my_president”

Okay…and you are referring to this because of what you wrote up above:

“if your comments weren't so combative and filled with profanity, i might agree with your sentiment here.”

Bstrangely…neither of us conducted ourselves in an especially non-combative way…and neither of us did without profanity in the thread you cited. You were as guilty in both those areas as was I.

Fact is, you got involved in a dispute between BBE and me…one that had been festering for a while. I am willing to say I got carried away a bit…as you did…and I will apologize to you for my departure from less combative, less profanity laced debate.

Bottom line: In the thread where Loo said I could no longer post…I WAS NOT unnecessarily or inappropriately combative…and I WAS NOT unnecessarily or inappropriately profane.

So what is your point?

frank, i have never left a comment like this on a stranger's blog:

"Horseshit!

The guy is faced with dozens of problems which all have dozens of miserable possible solutions. No matter which choices he makes...the people who characterize the choice as a miserable one are correct.

But there are massive negatives to all the choices.

Fuck all you people who are so simple-mindedly arrogant enough to think he must chose your miserable choice in order to be possessed of spine or character or morals."

and yes, i cursed once out of several responses to you. as i said before, details and reality matter.

if i'm as guilty as you are since i cursed back, then obama is as guilty as bush and cheney for continuing their policies, and i suppose you have no argument with dennis! i'm happy i could help you two reconcile.

Bstrangely...if you are too sensitive for the comments I made (the ones you quoted)…then you probably are too sensitive for OS. Compared with comments I see regularly from others…mine were fairly benign…and interspersed with plenty of commentary that had no stridency and no profanity.

Whatever!

My disagreement with Loo stands. If you want to comment on that…do so. If not, I’ve already offered an apology for anything that upset you…and I think that is more than enough.

Rated

To be fair to Dr. Loo (in regards to my previous comment in this thread), he and I have exchanged private messages and he insists that Frank's comments were the only ones he's ever deleted and that Frank is the only OSer he's ever 'banned' from his blog.

I still don't agree with Dr. Loo when it comes to deleting OS comments and I made that clear in our private exchanges. He indicated that he would take my advice (concerning comments) under consideration.

As far as the photos, I stick by the Carter quote I posted earlier.

Edgar…I appreciate the fact that you are trying to be “fair” to Dennis Loo…but I would appreciate some fairness extended in my direction here.

Here is a link to the blog where Dennis decided I could no longer participate in his discussions. (Anyone else interested can visit there also.)


http://open.salon.com/blog/dennis_loo/2009/05/05/another_swine_seeking_to_spread_its_flu


I am charging that his personal comment attacking me in that blog are more insulting than anything I said to him…

…that nothing I said there rises anywhere near the level of crap that regularly appears in OS…

…and that nothing I said there rises anywhere near to the level of being reasonable to “ban” anyone from a thread or blog.

His charges that I have come into several of his blogs and leveled “personal insults” at him is absolute nonsense. To the best of my knowledge, I only participated in one other blog of his…and in that one I passionately defended my opinions. Some of my opinions were that by savaging Obama as regularly as he does, he is playing into the hands of people who have already done great damage to our country…and who, if allowed to regain control, will do even more damage.

That is not personally attacking him…that is giving my opinion of what he is doing.

Look, I make no bones about it…my opinion right now is that Dennis Loo is a phony. I think he has an agenda, for whatever reason, designed to politically damage Barak Obama…and my assessment is that all his talk about defending the rule of law and the constitution is just window dressing.

His banning me from participating in his blogs disgusts me…and it should disgust you, Edgar. There is nothing I have done or said to Dennis Loo deserving of that treatment…other than calling attention to posters of what I see as an agenda designed to do as much damage to Obama as possible. That is the reason I am banned.

deleting comments and "banning" people from a blog does disgust me. I don't like it. It's anti-OS in my opinion, which is why I left the original comment that I did.

Frank, I am not going to read the comment thread spat between you and Dr. Loo, because in my mind, deleting comments on OS is never the right thing to do. I told Dr. Loo as much in my exchanges with him.

Thank you, Edgar. Fair enough!

The deletion issue is being discussed in two new threads.

A post by Incandescent: http://open.salon.com/blog/incandescent/2009/06/03/wall_of_shame_-_those_who_delete_comments_immortalized_here

And one by me: http://open.salon.com/blog/frank_apisa/2009/06/04/the_delete_function_should_go

I hope you all visit both of them.

of course i'm not too sensitive, frank... here i am still talking to you. and i did read what you wrote on dennis' blog. and i think he's right to stop discussing these issues with you, since you unfailingly add one note only to the conversation:

"You…and others like you…constantly assailing him on this issue are not helping in that direction. In fact, I charge that you are doing a disservice to Obama…and by extension, to our country and the world."

seriously... how can someone champion free speech (as you seem to in some posts) while they openly and unrepentantly tell folks criticizing the president to shut up? that their speech is actively harming the country and giving comfort to authoritarians?

have you ever thought about this discrepancy? loo isn't censoring you: he's just tired of giving you another podium when you have your own right here.

and sincerely, my assessment is that all your talk about defending the rule of law and the constitution is just window dressing. you're flat out asserting that the president shouldn't be questioned because he needs "space" to do the right thing as if you can read his mind.

change that word to "faith" and i hope you'll see why what you're saying is so frightening. running this country on law AND faith is like running your car on gas and sugar.

Bstrangely

First of all…thanks for “still talking to” me…and thanks for actually addressing the problem.

YOU SAID: “…and i think he's right to stop discussing these issues with you, since you unfailingly add one note only to the conversation”

RESPONSE: But we are not talking about Loo stopping discussion with me…we are talking about him banning me from his threads and about him deleting my comments.

If he doesn’t want to respond to what I write…hey, go for it. I often do not respond to what others writes…if I think that tactic is appropriate. But deleting the comments and banning a person from having a say is something altogether different.

I hope at some point you eventually see and appreciate that difference…and address his banning me and deleting me…rather than whether or not it makes sense for him not to respond to me.

YOU SAID: “…you unfailingly add one note only to the conversation:

"You…and others like you…constantly assailing him on this issue are not helping in that direction. In fact, I charge that you are doing a disservice to Obama…and by extension, to our country and the world."

RESPONSE: Well, B, since Loo is constantly attacking Obama…and since I feel that constantly assailing Obama may fatally weaken him and lead to a return to Bush/Cheneylike rule…what else can I do but repeat that admonition for him and his readers to consider???

YOU WROTE: “seriously... how can someone champion free speech (as you seem to in some posts) while they openly and unrepentantly tell folks criticizing the president to shut up? that their speech is actively harming the country and giving comfort to authoritarians? have you ever thought about this discrepancy?”

RESPONSE: C’mon, B. Think this out. Are you saying that if one champions free speech, one cannot challenge someone preaching hatred of Jews…cannot challenge someone advocating overthrowing the government by violent means…cannot tell bigots they ought not to air their bigotry in grammar schools…or cannot tell Dennis Loo to knock off the constant attacks on Barak Obama???

Do you honestly think that championing free speech means that you have to curtail exercise of your own free speech?

Surely you don’t.

There is no discrepancy except in your thinking on this issue.

YOU WROTE: “ loo isn't censoring you: he's just tired of giving you another podium when you have your own right here.”

RESPONSE: No, B…he IS censoring me. He is inviting the entire of Open Salon to comment on his frequent tirades savaging Barak Obama…but I am to be excluded!

You ought really be considering why you think that is okay…why that is appropriate and reasonable to you.


I like your energy, B. I like that you are fighting for what you think is important. I really, really want you to reconsider your assessment of this situation.

Anyone else posting in this blog who wants to comment on this discussion between Bstrangely and yours truly...please jump in.