First, some background for the question: I took issue with some of the things poster Thoth said in one of his several blogs castigating Barak Obama. I didn’t think I was particularly insulting…certainly not by normal OS standards, but Thoth objected to my comments rather strongly.
Here are the insults he perceived to be over-the-top:
“Sometimes one can tell a much-needed truth in a way that makes the truth seem like horseshit…which is what you just did, Thoth. Not only did you over-state parts of your case…the gratuitous shot at Obama and his wife stunk to high heaven.”
“Sorry you are too thick headed to get it”
(And finally a comment addressed to someone else in the thread) “This post…and the many, many others should be condemned…and condemned with enthusiasm by any thinking members of this community. People like THOTH are doing more damage to the notion that we can be a better nation…than the people actively seeking to make us a much lesser nation.”
But as I said, although I thought these comments were not particularly shocking, Thoth thought them to be much too insulting for someone like him, a guy who wrote in his bio: “My hope is to introduce civility, class and honor into American culture.”
He was, in fact, so insulted, he actually wrote me some suggestions for how I could improve the quality of my writing…how I could show more civility, class and honor toward him.
Here is what he said:
That's three times you insult me personally.
What is worse than an ignorant stupid old fart is an ignorant stupid impolite old fart. Even worse, is an ignorant stupid impolite old fart who writes very badly. Even worse, is a delusional ignorant stupid old fart who writes very badly. You actually believe that you can write. Not only that, you are so delusional, you dare to fuck with your betters. Read my posts you delusional fart. you are not in the same league; you're not even in the same sport.
I asked you twice to give a coherent counter argument, you couldn't. Instead you insulted us (me and everyone who agrees with me) and hid behind Krugman. Kate bishop tore you both new assholes, as if you need another one.
Go back to your pigs and do not fuck with humans again, you ignorant fucking retard. I admit that I was enjoying you humiliating yourself for a while. Yet, I now feel bad and must tell you the truth: you are a delusional ignorant stupid angry impolite old fart: hide.
NOW, THE QUESTION:
Do you think the fact that Thoth neglected to capitalize the “you” in the last sentence of his second paragraph detracts in a significant way from the lesson in civility, class, and honor he was trying to convey?
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He no say`God bless.
We are all in gutters.
Some looks at stars.
Vulgarity vs Opine?
I like other opinions.
Frank writes pleasant?
Sometimes he talks like golfers.
That's not a criticism of gofers.
Golfers cuss in Amish buggies.
Amish buggies are cool carts.
Smiles.
Profanity can be sacred words.
I never comment @ the Thoth.
Thoth cuss and deletes farmer.
Frank Apisa is clearer in style.
I don't always nod - ay yessum.
But, I consider 'conservatives'-
I'd golf caddy with Frank Apisa.
Throth has issues. Humans do.
I believe Frank Apisa provokes.
IMO, It's how we humans Play.
At 72- I may write its, It's, noy?
But, wait until Ya 72- crank Oy!
I am saying` we all have issues.
But, if I was to golf I'd postpone.
Today would be a mulligan stew.
I'd feel bad if Frank ate pork chop.
What sin is worst? Bacon or pork?
Frank and Troth? They drawl fire.
That leads to bloodshed and kilts.
No wear tutus in fairways or ruff.
I read love letters with miss spiel.
Ah! Grandpas drool at bar maiden.
Grandma cleans toe with corkscrew.
Gads. Maybe I'll ask a veterinarian?
What Pharmacy sells goofball stew?
Oy, I must go start a red snowblower?
Hate is no funny.
No slug barn flies.
Smack mule tush.
Ah, spank gently.
We learn civility.
Gandhi said this:`
I no respect One who always agrees with me. I agree. I honest person will smack!
But, smack Ya nose!
I kind person pokes!
But, will No stink kiss!
Point out each errors!
Address views. Be civil!
Frank is feisty. Throth?
I've no open comment.
Frank A. sees irony.
This is what I ponder.
Walrus has big tusk.
No be a big honcho.
No be a lil goldfish.
Sharks devour fool.
Frank A. ? Ya Kook?
Golf, Growl. Good!
Throth? I no coma!
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the writer is an overeducated kid with a "can do no wrong" attitude. If he "feels" it, it must be true. Many of us were like that at one time. Fortunately for us, we were arrogant children in the days before blogs, when one could broadcast his/her stupidity at most before a few friends and acquaintances.
If he follows a typical path to emotional maturity in his late 20's or early 30's, he may find lingering embarrassment haunting him from the ill-considered rants of his younger days
What I thought was even more hypocritical was that he took offense at being called "thick headed" ...
[admittedly that was a bit of an ad-hominem there Frank, but a minor one in context, so we'll let it slide; as Art the Poet said: "Frank is Feisty"]
... and he proceeded to spew venomous bile which insults the mentally disabled. That's REALLY the sign of a classy blogger.
[BTW Frank - I've responded to your APB. Now you've shown me yours; so now ya wanna take a look at mine?; http://www.opensalon.com/blog/indiana_joe . My recent blog is maybe not political enough for ya, but there's a post on Ralph Nader from October that you might be interested in.]
I just don't comment on blogs that folks write and delete comments on. If I can't add sometime I just click someone elses post and move on.
I do support the right to post these deleted omments though with all my heart. I think many here are good people and a few are not.
Hugs to you Frank. Sip some coffee or whatever and settle down.
Find some peace today my friend.
Eva…thanks. The guy is a case!
Art…thanks for putting all the effort into your response. Really appreciated. Hope everyone enjoyed it as much as I.
Amanda…thanks. Gonna keep on smiling.
Joe…gonna be over to your blog in just a sec. Thanks for the comments. I do sometimes aim at “provoking”…but in a sense, isn’t that what this is all about?
Mission…PEACE back to ya. I love each minute of my life…and spend no time at all sulking. I’m just having a bit of fun here at Thoth’s expense. He takes himself way too seriously. I just wanna have fun.
Scanner…thanks for the comment. I’ll look for some of your posts. Truly not looking for anyone to take sides...but if you can enjoy the humor of the irony of Thoth's comments...so much the better.
...it does make ya wonder, doesn't it!!!
And was deleted, twice.
So I've stopped wondering.
' If your morality is faulty, then your logic must be spurious.'
( Who said that ? )
Anyway, there's lots of good things to read here. I went looking for our friend Marguerite yesterday too, and ended up talking to a delightful lady about almonds !
Never let the bastards grind you down, Frank.
But…the other day I read a post about the Dexter series on television that did not include a warning about PLOT SPOILERS…and I went apeshit when a particular plot element was revealed in the second sentence. Used a lot of bad words…and showed lots of very deep anger. I did go back almost immediately and apologize and acknowledge that I was all wet for having gone ape…but…it does happen. This guy Thoth not only does not regret his intemperance or see the irony of a post like that juxtaposed with his intention to “kinder/gentler”…he actually has added to the bullshit. He obviously is a young boy out of his element.
Dr.Spudman…funny stuff you mentioned. Thanks.
Inagoodway…try not to think of this post as “attacking” anyone…but rather as a humorous look at the ironies of some of the stuff written in the heat of passion. Thoth pretty much is saying that HE could do a better job of leading our nation (and the world) out of the overwhelming crises we all face than can Obama. I think he is as all wet on that. I also think he is all wet on much of the criticism of what is being done. And I think he is as capable of further the good of our nation as he is in further the interests of civility, class, and honor with the kinds of posts he made. We apparently disagree on that…but I do thank you for your comments.
I write well enough to have had a full-page MY TURN in Newsweek Magazine--and an OpEd size piece in the New York Times.
You are not even close to being my better in this department...in fact, if anyone is out of his league...you are that person.
But thanks for the intemperate reply.
I guess he doesn’t want to hear from either of us.
Erik...thanks for the comment. I'm calm!
And, yes, you should capitalize any word after a colon or, at least, I do believe it is common usage.
Merry Christmas to you, my Friend!
Taking someone out with a good rant is rather like stabbing someone to death; it can be quite messy, so one wants to accomplish the result with the fewest strokes possible. In that regard, the above rant simply isn't very efficient; he eventually kills you, but in a manner that makes it clear that he doesn't know how to use the knife.
Oh how I long for the days of the quality rant -- a single artery is severed, and the victim falls -- a thing of beauty, the action of a true verbal samurai. None of this "the victim was stabbed 20 times" nonsense. These young people just don't know how to do a good rant any more.
In that regard I am pleased to announce my new business: "Mishima666's Rant Emporium. Quality Rants for All Occasions, By Appointment of Her Majestie The Queen." For a small fee I will craft a rant guaranteed to destroy your opponent while bystanders applaud. See my new web site Rants_R_Us.Com.
Mishima…thanks for the comments (I think)…and if I ever need a hand ranting (something I doubt will happen)…I will rush to you for help. Good luck with the new business! (He did over-do the stabbing, didn’t he. And ain’t I glad he did. Some people might say that I played him like a fiddle. Ahhh…yeah, I guess; but there is no pride in zonkin’ an out of control kid.
Please stop. Just because you are using nicer language than Thoth, you are still doing the very same thing. You both are passionate - you take the "golfer's" language approach and he takes the "direct" language approach in that piece. And, since you didn't link to the post in your flame here, and please know you are flaming, you have been a bit misleading.
I recognize the flaming thing because I have made the mistake before myself - my best advice, do a killer counter post based on facts not defiling the person.
I have nothing against you personally, I actually added you as a "favorite" after disagreeing with you on Kent Pitman's blog post, if you doubt my sincerity. Kent let you know there you make a habit of ad hominem arguments towards people when you disagree with their positions.
You did that to me on both Thoth and Kent's post. I have no problem arguing on substance, but won't be told, "People like THOTH are doing more damage to the notion that we can be a better nation…than the people actively seeking to make us a much lesser nation." You are judging me personally Frank - not making a counter argument with your own critical thoughts, you throw Krugman's out there - in a passive aggressive way with a little less vitriol. You are saying, because I don't agree with you, I am making this less of a nation? Based on what exactly? I have yet to be enlightened as to what specific facts you base that on? You just keep attacking me in a broad way...hence, the "ad hominem" argument.
I suggest to you, it isn't the "Right" that wants you to do this, although it appears that way on the surface, it is the Insurance Industry, or the next lobby group and the upper crust (i.e. politicians benefiting across the aisles and those who line their pockets) who benefits from it when we are fighting over the next policy at stake, whether it be health care or otherwise. While we are busy arguing, they are passing meaningless legislation which we have to swallow with the idea that it is "incremental" when we didn't get anything progressive at all (which I gave my reasons for already over there).
People are mad Frank and they have a right to be. Please don't take that away from them by insulting them - and, speaking for myself - please don't start a flame war on OS, it doesn't speak well to the integrity of the site as a whole. I sincerely ask you to argue with him via PMs, we all need a little more brotherly love these days.
I wish you the best...
Thoth is pretty insulting, but I don't think he's in Marguarite Arnold's league. I just read some of her stuff. She is one crazy character...Or maybe she's the sane one and the rest of us are all crazy?
Stud…you know I always like to hear from you.
Kate…sorry you see me as being misleading. I did not put a link to Thoth’s site, since I responded twice to his tirade…and he deleted my posts both times. If you can link to it at this time…please do so. If there is even one word that I have altered…I will apologize to every one involved…but I say I have not done so. I am perfectly willing to put the entire text of every one of my posts to Thoth…in the particular thread or ANY thread in which I interacted with him…and I defy you to point out anything that merited the response I quoted up above.
In the meantime, f you truly see anything “misleading”…by all means quote or site what you see as such.
I have nothing against you…or Thoth, for that matter. I mean that with all my heart. But I do not understand your argument here any more than I understand your arguments on the issue that was being discussed. This is a site designed, in great part, for people to offer opinions. If it is my opinion that the kind of thing you and Thoth are doing ARE INDEED “…doing more damage to the notion that we can be a better nation…than the people actively seeking to make us a much lesser nation.” Make no mistake…THAT IS MY OPINION. Am I supposed to keep quiet with that opinion because some people consider that an ad hominem?
If you truly want to discuss that, I will do so. Start a thread…and I PROMISE I will discuss the issue in a respectful, courteous, albeit passionate, way…but make mistake about it, it is my opinion that Thoth IS MOST ASSUREDLY doing what I said he is doing. And by applauding what he is doing…I DO consider you to be doing that also.
As for “…People are mad Frank and they have a right to be. Please don't take that away from them by insulting them…”…I can only ask why you consider my opinion to be an insult…and your opinion to the contrary is not. Why can Thoth say the things he says…and when I say them back, often using much milder language, it is insulting???
This reminds me of the Christians who have no problem dissing the opinions and sensibilities of others…but who always demand great “respect” for their “beliefs.”
I have taken valid positions on this issue…and quite honestly, I have defended them with great gusto in many places.
Honestly, let’s discuss it if you disagree.
I also wish you the best!
You make good points, and any logical person can look at your side of the argument versus theirs and be like "Huh, they make a pretty good point..." or at least SOMETHING to that effect. I think the problem is that people don't like to admit that they're wrong. It's a huge issue! Some people are just unable to admit that they could be wrong about something... I think that's so dumb. (My dad has that complex...it's easily one of the most annoying things ever.)
But don't worry. I love your stuff.
Like the original constitution, the health care bill has a lot of room for improvement. And I hope we all keep agitating to force Congress to MAKE those improvements. And no, it's not the bill we all hoped we'd get. I'm angry about that. But I'd far rather have a partial victory than an entire defeat, and I'd far rather have the bill passed than to miss our chance for ANY reform.
You crack me up, man! I have always liked you, primarily BECAUSE of your abrasive, no-holds-barred approach; there is a certain honesty in it. I think I live vicariously through your offensiveness (and I mean that in the best possible way). And that is in spite of the fact that you and I don’t always agree with each other.
;~)
Unfortunately, many people can’t handle your style very well; it sets them on the defensive. I was going to comment in that thread on Thoth’s blog, but by the time I got to it and had time to comment, the thread had sort of deteriorated into something in which I had no interest to participate.
In fact, my comment was going to focus primarily on the Krugman article you referenced. I think I’ll just write a post of my own referencing that article and notify you when I post it so you can come insult me in your inimitable manner.
;~)
I have a question for you: what, exactly, is the value of post like this one?
In actuality, that makes you like the Christians who "diss" others while demanding great respect for their beliefs.
Usually when you spot it, you got it, as the saying goes...
Please take a deep breath and consider what I've said. If not, I have no doubt this will continue on just as it has and we will all divide further versus come together. Offer "why" you think this "should" pass based on logical facts, a counter argument, not just an indictment of character of those who oppose your beliefs. I am all for understanding someone's point of view as long as they are not insulting me because I don't hold the one they have.
Rick…we have agreed to disagree on many occasions…and passions have run high. I have never lost respect for you. I say what I have to say as straight forwardly as possible. I defy anyone to look at the posts I made in Thoth’s blog and say that any of it was so offensive that the kind of reply he made is warranted.
As to your question: The value of a post like this is to negate the effect of posts being deleted. I use to think the delete button ought be removed from OS…but I reversed myself. But if anyone deletes a post I make in their blogs…I will initiate one of these kinds of threads to discuss that happening. I was deleted from Thoth’s blog…I initiated this thread to counter the deletion. The deletion in its entirety was to quote Thoth’s rant…and then to say:
I write well enough to have had a full-page MY TURN in Newsweek Magazine--and an OpEd size piece in the New York Times.
You are not even close to being my better in this department...in fact, if anyone is out of his league...you are that person.
But thanks for the intemperate reply.
I am proud that I handled that rant the way I did…and I am proud of the way I handled this thread…with a bit of humor while poking fun at an intemperate rant.
I think everyone who is deleted ought to do this same thing.
Grif…no matter how much I argue with anyone…I extend my hand in friendship afterwards. No need for anything to continue…but no need for them to be just dropped. I think this thread makes sense…and may well have added benefit to OS for having existed.
Kate …you are way over-doing the accusations of my supposed ad hominem comments. Sometimes people offer just opinions in these forums.
My comment to Thoth was “Sometimes one can tell a much-needed truth in a way that makes the truth seem like horseshit…which is what you just did, Thoth. Not only did you over-state parts of your case…the gratuitous shot at Obama and his wife stunk to high heaven.”…was right on the button and was NOT an ad hominem attack. Look at it…I actually AGREED with his theme…and merely pointed out that the truth was told in a way that made it seem like horseshit. Perhaps my reply was also said in a way that made it seem like horseshit…but it was on the button.
At one point in the discussion, I wrote:
Odette, you wrote: Frank, insulting other peoples' abilities says a lot of things about you, none of them complimentary.
Thoth asked for “enlightenment”…and I gave him the unvarnished truth as I saw it. If you want to think negatively about me because of that…do so. I am not happy that you do…but I can tolerate it.
Thoth’s entire thesis here can be summed up:
We have troubles…and they are not being solved quickly enough for me.
He then offers some of the most simplistic solutions ever!
And then a bunch of people come to the thread to compliment him on his keen perceptions.
I say to you, Odette, with all the respect in the world: Gimme a break!
This post…and the many, many others should be condemned…and condemned with enthusiasm by any thinking members of this community. People like THOTH are doing more damage to the notion that we can be a better nation…than the people actively seeking to make us a much lesser nation.
Sorry you cannot see that…and I guess I could be wrong. I have been before.
But I will speak out against this kind of crap as loudly and as often as I can.
If you want to take that as a personal ad hominem attack on you…well, I don’t know what to say. It is only thing I said that you could possibly consider an attack on you…and as far as I am concerned, that is a huge stretch.
Let’s discuss this point right here. The people visiting will not mind a side bar between us. I’ll start:
I am saying with all the supposed “facts” facts Thoth claims to be offering…it all reduces to: “We have troubles…and they are not being solved quickly enough for me. “
I also claim that his “solutions” are simplistic. Working incrementally is the way damn near every piece of safety-net legislation has ever arrived on the scene…and that is the only way this piece will ever come into existence.
Thoth’s “solution” of I call on all Americans of wealth to start building and financing free public hospitals and clinics. while castigating Obama’s and the congress’s efforts…is an insult to intelligence and reason.
Kathy …thanks for the comments…and although you disagree with some of what I am doing here, we are on the same page.
As for the war of words that seems to be so common on blogging sites, I will speak more in generalities than specifically to you or to Thoth. One of my posts was put on the cover of big Salon this weekend. The last time I checked it had over 200 comments. I stopped reading them after about 120 of them. It seemed as if 90% of them were character assassinations of me...horrible vile and vitriolic comments. At first they didn't bother me, and I tried to use reasons and a level of decorum to match the unkind, and quite frankly, unintelligent attacks. It was a complete waste of my time. By mid-afternoon on Saturday, I felt bruised and beaten. I was starting to take those strangers words personally and then I knew it was time to stop. Bottom line, once someone calls me a name, they've lost me. I want to have conversations with grown-up's, not pre-adolescent children in adult bodies. So, in your post, you called Thoth "thick headed" and he responded in an equally disdainful way. At that point, there is no hope for any kind of rational thought or discourse. People can cling to these low level ways of communicating and call it being "passionate"...an excuse I find to rationalize poor behavior. I think there are plenty of ways to be passionate without the name calling. I'm all for good healthy debate...but when a person's character starts getting attacked, I'm outta here. Both you and Thoth are smart people who I believe have the wherewithall to disagree in ways that do not disrespect. But it does happen, we're human. And then it's time to not catastrophize, but shrug our shoulders and move on.
Yes, it is all the times you say, "those who oppose this bill" are such and such. I am not going to do a cut and paste from both Kent and Thoth's blogs - we both can read what is over there. I am not taking it personally as in, "I, Kate Bishop am a bad person" because I don't believe like Frank, I have more self-esteem than that :). What I am trying to point out to you, over and over again, is that each time you do this, substitute and emotional attack for a logical counter argument based on fact, it incites hostility not mutual understanding. I still have yet to understand why you feel the way you about this health care bill except that, "it must pass because this is how we've always done it, incremental change, and you are not intelligent if you don't see that". Where are the facts in that statement?
I am quite okay with agreeing to disagree. I would like to understand your opinion more clearly without feeling attacked by you. That is what I've been trying to say - that is as clear as I can make it. Between you and Thoth - I leave the rest to the two of you. I just think once you throw out a names, or tell someone the way they think is inferior or the language they use "wrong", you put them on the defensive. Gandhi was the master - I look to him for all guidance in political discourse.
Best wishes Frank - I've done my best to be clear. I hope you will take it at face value. Over and out!
Another indicator is taking personally what is clearly not intended personally--and not "amending" themselves once it is made explicit the remarks were not meant personally. You will not often find the word "compromise" in their language, nor any indication that it is necessary in a democracy.
I think you will find mostly it is a waste of time attempting a dialogue with ideologues. They feel they have a responsibility only to themselves, and that of course is what politics should be about as well i.e. does this or that representative agree with THEM. That is their criteria, not what serves anyone else. It also explains why so many who accepted Obama are now among the first to defect. They aren't getting their way!
Nice post Frank. I like it how you take as it comes--you fisty "old fart," you.
Kate…once again, your side seems to think it is entirely okay for you people to characterize Barak Obama any way you want…but if I dare to suggest that people doing what you are doing are hurting rather than helping us become a better country…I am castigated as a hurler of ad hominems!
Do it if you have to, Kate…but if you ever decide to actually discuss the issues without judging that every time I offer an opinion, I am somehow a reprobate, maybe we can get somewhere. But the false charges nonsense is simply not acceptable to me.
Further on this, if you have time, please read my reply to Ben Sen.
Ben Sen…from one ole fart to another, thanks! Listen…this constant insistence of Kate that I have maligned or done name calling…is so over-done itself, it is almost absurd.
I’ve already posted damn near everything I ever said to Thoth. I also posted his intemperate reply. How can Kate think that I am out-of-order here…considering the contrast? As for the Kent Pittman thing which she has now mentioned three times…I am offering links to the thread in question…and I ask anyone interested to read EVERY WORD I wrote in that thread.
I was courteous…I would say, even friendly in my remarks…AND NOTHING I wrote rises anywhere near to the level of charges of ad hominem.
The thread was: http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2009/12/16/a_line_in_the_shifting_sands_of_health_insurance
If that link doesn’t come through in useable form (they often don’t) …go to Kent’s home page and look for his thread, “A line in the shifting sands of health insurance.” His home page link is:
http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman
Anyone actually reading my comments there will come away wondering how anyone could possibly characterize them as an attack mode. I say I was courteous, reasonable, and even friendly. I did stand up for what I feel is right, which means I was on the side opposite from Kent and Kate…and I did use the expression “Alice in Wonderland”…but even that minor, frequently used metaphor, was not used in a way that could remotely be considered malicious. Kate says she doesn’t want to do quotes from the Thoth or Kent threads. I don’t blame her. They would show that the charges are absolute blather.
But I’ve got skin thick as an elephants…and I will continue to have my say.
The reason I am putting all this information out here is for the people who actually want to take a look and see who is portraying these actions reasonably…and who is portraying them inappropriately negatively way.
I say I win that contest…HANDS DOWN.
Luther thought he said: Faith preceded Understanding in the monkey line somewhere. he believed more than darwin did
about evolution. he was a patriot.
so it was a mistake of translation. one umlaut!
Thoth's response sounds like the many times I was angry and wished to lash out. I have benefitted from the times I wrote hostile words, then put them in a drawer, and gave myself time to cool off. My later re-edit, though still imperfect, is usually more civil, classy, and honorable than my first try.