Granted, there are many excellent writers whose works get lost among the hoopla and the onslaught of mutual admiration societies, whose MIA members jump out of the woodwork on cue -not to mention the dust-ups that keep the feed occupied all day. Unfortunately that is everyone's loss, and it is up to us, individually, to seek and highlight them in recognition of their worthy contributions. Then again, it all comes down to one's r'aison d'étre for being here.
This post is addressed those who wish to sharpen their critical thinking and writing skills and would like to promote a civil discussion. I will start with some of the criteria I consider when I write, whether it is a personal essay or fiction.
A good writer not only provides for allowances in interpretation of his/her material but also leads his reader to the conclusion(s) s/he desires to achieve by his crafty use of diction, style, allusion, implication, subtleties and other literary elements.
A writer should evaluate all reasonable inferences and questions, and consider a variety of possible viewpoints or perspectives by remaining open to alternative interpretations. S/he should graciously entertain a new explanation, model, or paradigm because it explains and/or questions the evidence (or lack thereof) perhaps better, simpler, or with fewer inconsistencies rather than dismiss it because it may question the collective, emotional and the popular view.
A good writer should provide enough for his/her readers to read between the lines but not expect them to struggle to fill in the lines based on the writer's past track record, familiarity or work. That takes the pleasure out of reading. Telling is never as effective as showing, however, there should be enough and insurmountable evidence in what is shown not to leave any doubt in the readers' minds. It is always pleasant to interpret what the Emperor's clothes are made of, but it is difficult to pretend that he is wearing any clothes at all when, in fact, he is mostly naked.
Clarity is the cornerstone of good writing. Without clarity the meaning may be lost and the message missed. Clear writing is what will lead the reader in the direction the writer seeks. Yet clear water at times runs shallow and thus may be perilous. Critical thinking enables us to actively analyze a piece of writing. Therefore as critical thinkers, we must keep in mind a few considerations.
Critical thinkers recognize the difference between “reading between the lines” and “trying to read into the lines”. They do not accept anything at face value. They ask, “Are there alternative assumptions and perspectives?” They weigh each word, each phrase to determine the validity of the message.
Critical thinkers approach texts with the same skepticism and suspicion as they would approach verbal responses, ask questions and analyze. They apply tactics to uncover meaning and assure their understanding. They resort to reason rather than emotion and consider a variety of possible outlooks rather than accept popular views right off the bat.
They do not take an egotistical view of the world. They are open to new ideas and perspectives; and they are willing to challenge their beliefs and consider competing evidence, when that evidence is presented in a logical and clear way.
Non-critical thinkers, on the other hand take a simplistic view of the world and they see things as “either-or” or in “black and white”, instead of admitting to the possibility of a variety of understanding and interpretation. They view their perspective as the only obvious, sensible, or possible one; their facts as the only relevant facts; and their goal as the only valid goal.
In doing so, non-critical thinkers fail to see and accept the complexities and possible links between related elements whether in their writing or in their interpretation of what they read. To them most, if not all, questions are answerable with “yes” or “no” without any subtleties.
Because they take such a narrow and egotistical view of the world they do not welcome – and sometimes strike out in fury – non-critical readers and writers are not readily open to discussion or critique, which they see as threatening to their rock-solid beliefs.
~~♣~~~♣~~
Füsun Atalay ~ Copyright © Will of my Own - 2011
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I am always up for constructive criticism since I am here to practice, but also prefer it in a pm especially if it is something I can fix before others read. I can read my posts over and over and still miss typos! I love it when people pm me so I can fix it right away.
It seems to me that not rating or commenting on a post can be an effective indicator of a miss without saying anything. I have had some posts that were misses, (low rates and comments), and I took it into account and tried to improve on my writing the next time.
Great post Fusun! I will check back to see what others think.
Like you, I accept that people use this kind of forum for a variety of lgitimate reasons, not all of which must aspire to critical thinking. I won't read more than a few times people I cannot regard as good writers, or at least among those trying to improve craft week to week. I do think it's important to realize, too, that when we first read someone here, we may not have stumbled on his/her best day or effort and so returning again makes sense.
Thanks very much for this; it's provocative.
I should add that what you raise are reasons I write and read at distinctly different kinds of sites.
I always recommend:
www.doesthismakesense.com Nikki Stern, Editor
www.talkingwriting.com Martha Nichols, Editor
and for news/commentary:
www.paltalknewsnetwork.com (www.reportergary.com) Gary Baumgarten, Editor
All three sites are edited by writers who read and post here.
These sites are more than worth the time and while
www.doesthismakesense.com
is particularly designed to elicit critical-thinking writing/commentary, one must join to comment and I'll say that it's quite worth doing so.
Thanks so much, FusunA for this.
I would say tho, that the problem of thinking is far wider than this blog and that we, as a society (at least here, but, who knows, maybe in Canada, too) desperately need to hear such advice as you've so kindly offered.
This is a great article Fusun, very helpful, but I couldn't write my way out of a paper bag if I tried. I will admit to being a fancy dancer with lots of great moves, so I get away with a lot. But to be honest, I think writing is nearly beyond me. Not quite, but nearly, I'll tell you.
in interpretation of his/her material
(HOWEVER: WITH NEARLY INFINITE POSSIBLE SUBJECTIVITIES,
NOT ONLY ALL READERS,
BUT ALL 'HOW READERS FEEL THEN')
but also leads his/her reader
to the conclusion(s) s/he desires
to achieve by his/her crafty use of diction,
(OFTEN OUR MOTIVES ARE UNCONSCIOUS, WHILE
ON THE SURFACE SOMETHING JEJUNE...)
style, allusion, implication,
subtleties and other literary elements.
(WE MUST MASTER THE MANIPULATION OF ALL
POSSIBLE CONSCIOUSNESSES
AT ALL TIMES & MOODS..
OK, WILL DO..)
I enjoy writing, so a constructive criticism of my writing would be welcome, but leave my poetry alone. I don't want to hear squat about that.
Poetry should be pure and free of all constriction. It's like music. The form allows for anything, so it's purely creative. I feel good about my poetry. My writing is ridiculous. :D
You, Fusun, are welcome to criticize the hell out of my posts. It is always an honor and a pleasure. So there! R
There are many here who don't dig my stuff. I know this because they don't read me or if they do, they choose to remain silent. I would love nothing more than to have at least two or three comments on every post telling me in a civil, constructive way why my piece didn't work for them. I would like to improve and expand my readership, but if no one ever tells me what I'm doing wrong I only have my instincts to work with, and that can only get you so far. It may be that I'm no Ann Nichols and never will be, but anyone can get better at a anything.
Bottom line-- I welcome critiques, but some do not. Perhaps it's better to keep to the PM system and offer them only when solicited.
Ok, I get it.
Would definitely classify myself as a critical thinker.
Would classify non-critical thinkers as (what are known in America as) Republicans and (here and everywhere in the world as) hard-core religious evangelist types who choose faith over facts, or at least thought.
Face it, most people just aren't that smart, however most that find this web site entertaining... are.
MY writing, well.. it is what it is. Gawd, I can't help but to ALWAYS publish too quickly due to my own grasshopper mentality, and other pressures for my time (when I do take my time I do so much better). I personally love it, like Susie L., when someone PM's me for a dumb correction, like neilpaul did the other day when I wrote conscious, and meant conscience. Another DUH moment in oZ.
Also, if someone wants to criticize in comments, I don't mind a bit. What's good for the goose and all that, Fusun Atalay
"She was the master of silence
that is very important
this communication not only of the evident things
the said things
but of the unsaid things
because I think our lives are made up of not only
the things that we say
but the things we don't say
we cannot say
the job of the poet is to show it
is to show the silence
Ellizabeth was a master in this difficult art."
For the purposes of today's critique, I believe the piece in question to be firmly in the prose category and therefore the silences the author allows us give greater resonance to the piece than a more heavy handed rendering.
My favorite detractor wrote this on my most recent.
"Lovely.
(friggin' hillbillies)
yeah, yeah, yeah ... ya hate the vanilla-flavor type of life ... always have to vascillate between extreme highs & lows, highs & lucidity, dangers & safe-romantic gestures, etc.
lookin' forward to your not-too-distant future blog "Dear OSers, I f---ed up big time!"
(friggin' hillbillies)"
I find it interesting that in no way was my writing critiqued. I'll own my hillbilly-ness and have openly for a long time, but the piece.. it was entertaining IMHO. I didn't have to share it. I did what I do.. took a real life evening and wrote it out in all of it's horrid reality, with some embellishment, attempting to make it humorous and fun. It's my forté.
Nice try.. to get me to think so hard Fusun. Great subject..
Even Trig emailed me about a name my ancient mind screwed up.
I welcomed it. Working with a read Ed at another site was great too.
No one's work is perfect and I strive to get better and not slide back down the pole.
Good post Fusun.. a lot to think about here.
HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
I got the impression it was mostly the ideal to ply your skills, improve and attempt to polish your technique and style -- maybe even discover a style -- of writing.
I do believe, that the concept of being critical in the literary sense and not the colloquial sense is something we definitely could use a more healthy dose here and everywhere. That said, there is a distinct difference (as you point out) in critical analysis and critique of someone's work versus simply being critical in the sense of not liking something, because it doesn't jibe with one's world view.
My essays (at this point, that's all I'm willing to put out here) are here for anyone to view and comment upon. Hopefully, my skills and technique, which I consider above average, will continue to improve. For this reason, I invite any and all civil comments, suggestions, critiques, analyses and opinion on any of my posted works.
If someone manages to create a sensation of intense emotional response, then there is also something to be said for that to some degree. Of course, it does depend on the intent of the writer. And there is as much value in a high post count of people detracting something over emotional response before any reasoning occurs. At least you hit a nerve.
If folks shy away from straight up being bashed, then posting or writing anything other than a shopping list or directions to some other locations is not for you. You must also have a damn thick skin and the ability to avoid anger posting.
One thing many forget in this day and age of immediate communication and twitter shortened responses is that we don't have to respond immediately *just because we can.* The one thing I caution my readers (I moderate two separate gaming forums, one for a major game developer [all volunteer]) and, as such, my responsibility for writing goes beyond essays, polite speech or idea generation. It also requires of me to stop and consider what it is I am intending with what I print out from keyboard to screen.
By the same token, in my positions I am also required to sift through tons of really poor grammar, technique, Leet-speak, english as a foreign language, and poorly thought out posts by folks from all walks of life, social position and interests. I believe that to write well, one must read a lot. And you can learn nearly as much by reading poorly concepted writing as you can from well written and articulate speech. I do still recommend more of the latter than the former whenever possible.
And of course, to write well and to do so with the critical writing and thinking in mind, you must also write, write, write and then have it critiqued. And those critiqueing you can teach you many things. Most of them in an open environment will most likely teach you to have a thicker skin, some patience and to learn to even look at what your greatest detractors say and see if there might be a kernel of truth or observation in there that you can take from it, leaving the chaff behind.
Thanks for posting this. I look forward to learning my way around here and still avoiding the politics that I am beginning to see as I spend more time here. If I want politics, I'll write a politically motivated essay.
regards,
dunniteowl
My choice to write here in dialect has brought some very mixed results, some that I had not anticipated at all. And please remember that my last ex seemed to think as a PHD in English, his job was to 'red pencil' all the work he graded was his job, as well to tell me constantly what a poor writer I was in general.
I am sure there are many here who think all writing should be perfect in all respects. Perfect grammar for all and none of those common misspellings, comma splices, dangling modifiers, etc.
But what if you are like me, struggling to write in dialect??
It is a big challenge, more than can be written here in a comment.
Your thoughts are welcome.
if it doesn't come bursting out of you
in spite of everything,
don't do it.
unless it comes unasked out of your
heart and your mind and your mouth
and your gut,
don't do it.
if you have to sit for hours
staring at your computer screen
or hunched over your
typewriter
searching for words,
don't do it.
if you're doing it for money or
fame,
don't do it.
if you're doing it because you want
women in your bed,
don't do it.
if you have to sit there and
rewrite it again and again,
don't do it.
if it's hard work just thinking about doing it,
don't do it.
if you're trying to write like somebody
else,
forget about it.
if you have to wait for it to roar out of
you,
then wait patiently.
if it never does roar out of you,
do something else.
if you first have to read it to your wife
or your girlfriend or your boyfriend
or your parents or to anybody at all,
you're not ready.
don't be like so many writers,
don't be like so many thousands of
people who call themselves writers,
don't be dull and boring and
pretentious, don't be consumed with self-
love.
the libraries of the world have
yawned themselves to
sleep
over your kind.
don't add to that.
don't do it.
unless it comes out of
your soul like a rocket,
unless being still would
drive you to madness or
suicide or murder,
don't do it.
unless the sun inside you is
burning your gut,
don't do it.
when it is truly time,
and if you have been chosen,
it will do it by
itself and it will keep on doing it
until you die or it dies in you.
there is no other way.
and there never was. - Charles Bukowski
I'm thinking poorly conceived, but I could be wrong.
I JUST AM NOT SURE!
Face it everyone. Been said many times, and is quite true. This is as much a social networking site, possibly even more that, than a real writers site. We do BLOGS. Web logs if I am correct. I'm a carpenter. What ya expect?
Correct me, love me, hate me, slam me or whatev. I'll give the same back as I see appropriate.
I agree too. I usually "puke and post." If it doesn't flow out then it usually sucks. I imagine Hunter S., hunched over his typewriter, Dunhill in mouth, Scotch on the rocks, doing it GONZO style.
But TO EACH THEIR OWN!
On criticism... if you publish it here for the whole freaking world to see (a pretty large leap of faith in it's own) it's fair to accept that you may be criticized in one way or another.
From my own point of view, it would be wonderful if this site were all about discussions of style and the clarity with which ideas are conveyed in writing and not about agreement or disagreement with content at all. Poetry and short stories would fit into this scheme in a little different way, but not much different.
I realize that this is impossible in a place such as Open Salon. But would not it be wonderful?
Thoughtful post (and interesting comments, too,mostly). I never read a great writer who wasn't also a great reader. Nothing has changed since first grade when our teachers advice was, "Read, read, read"
Matt: thanks for bringing that wonderfully talented sot Charles B to the party! I'm gonna go call Hunter S. Thompson and see what he has to say about critical thinking and the masses....(kate zooms to google)
That said, I don't offer any constructive criticism/feedback to amateurs even if asked unless they pay me. I learned the hard way that they always take it personally no matter how diplomatically it's stated, and they don't improve. Money seems to take care of the "taking it personally" reaction. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.
Feel free to post my EP if you'd like, for Emma's sake. Sometimes, Emma, one does pro bono work. That's what this site COULD be about--professional writers helping those who ask for help to improve their skills. Give a little, take a little. EP's make sense to me.
Lezlie
@Matt: I never said I was perfect. I'll leave that to you.
I'm here at OS to improve my writing. Which includes reading as well as writing. I've learned a lot from both here. I do wish it were a site solely devoted to writing, but it's still quite good as it is!
"Hello,
I liked your piece on critical thinking. I’ve been a professional writer for 25 years. I’ve spent about an hour inserting suggested edits and grammatical changes into your piece, which is about 59 minutes more than you’ll get from most people on OS. I did so because you seem to be an honest, hard-working writer. Most of my suggestions are grammatical, some are subjective, but I think they’re worth your consideration. I’ve put [SUGGESTED DELETIONS WITHIN BRACKETS]. Pardon any typos. I offer this in writerly solidarity! Keep writing; keep sharpening those no. 2 red pencils. Cheers. "
-----------------
In response to:
EMMA:
I was hoping to see you here. Thank you for your input. Except for the offering help part, I agree with you. I have perhaps been more generous with my time and personal knowledge (which is not to sday that I know everything). I wish the atmosphere were more collegial and welcoming.
MATT & CRANKY:
I hope you are not confusing my post as a response to any other particular post on Open Salon. It is definitely not. However, since you made a reference to offering a public critique, let me set the record straight. The critique you imply was offered, solicited then given - in that order. I do not consider minor corrections such as spelling or punctuation, wrong verbs, or pronouns as a "critique", and have been correcting hundreds behind the scenes as I'm sure you have. I offered a sample, if the writer were not interested, I could have been informed one way or the other immediately, and if my views were so upsetting my comments could have been deleted rather than having posters defend personalities than the actual ideas and writing.
GENERAL:
I fail to understand the secretive mentality of Open Salon as well. Based on personal mail I receive, there are so many writers -new and not so new - who sound hesitant to express their opinions freely without reproach. Why shouldn't everyone be able to carry a civil dialogue without offending each other's delicate ego? The mentality that seems to govern presently is bullying not so established writers into silence, afraid to voice their ideas, questions, input and prevent the emergence of fresh new voices. Akin to being censored - if one doesn't have the "I love every single word of this" or "this is your best" type of unimaginative, generic comment, one may as well forget about commenting at all. This is how see Open Salon now - much different from what it was.
I know - these words have been said before. But one can always hope and try to make a difference.
I do agree with some of the other comments. Most people come here for entertainment. To me, OS is my playground. I have posted some serious pieces, but for the most part I come here to unwind and have a little fun.
R
After quite a long time of participation and observation I can tell who ever might be interested that EMMA is good people. I stand in solidarity with her, and yes, I know she's a her.
Your comment is disingenuous, since it picks up from the comments you made on Joan H’s post last night. A post, by the way, that I thought was terrific, and you seemed to be the only reader who didn’t feel its impact. As for her “request” for your critique, I took it as Joan just being polite to you. You had already come on strong with your criticism of her piece and you took her politeness as an excuse to post several additional lengthy comments. This entire post struck me as you expressing your annoyance that none of the other readers seemed to embrace your criticism.
This post is not about anyone or any particular post, so I would appreciate if you refrain from trying to keep reintroducing a non item by implication or direct reference. If the person you are referring to has any problems, that person has a voice and I'm sure doesn't need advocates to sepak on her behalf.
The point you raise about criticism is also interesting as it validates that one has to dance around on egg shells rather than state an honest opinion straight out. To go against the grain and call a post that everyone raves about "not a great one" ,apparently, has become a crime around here.
I would personally feel disserviced if I received similar platitudes. I would appreciate criticism with questioning specific items which would lead me to think and reconsider what I have written, and thank the person who offered a different view rather than call on my followers to defend me. I would like to know how I might improve something, weigh the options, and then decide whether I will take the advice or not.
I see Emma's point and agree more with her about offering any opinions without catering to egos after this experience, which leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
But as I stated and stand by my statement, this post is not about the trivial. It is about creating a collegial, welcoming, and open-minded atmosphere for writers who are missing it and not to be discouraged by the present state Open Salon is in.
Your point on clarity holds true for mime performance too. Every movement on stage must be intentional or it will confuse the audience. In mime you cannot tell them anything. You invite them into your world to imagine with you, but if you are not clear and concise they will imagine you have stepped into a roller coaster instead of a hot tub.
As for critiques I think this is a tricky forum for that. To accept a critique from someone you have to trust their intention. It seems to me many of the "dust ups" arise from distrust as well as the lack of civility. Personally I want critique and have benefited from them in writing retreats and workshops. In those situations we are face to face and I feel as if I have a better sense of the person. Here, what I gain from comments from people you know read through the piece is emotional response. And that is important feedback. If I wrote something I wanted taken seriously and everyone thought it was hilarious, then I know it needs major rewrites. I consider everything I've written here as beginning drafts. They all need to be reworked and that's what I do when I go on retreats.
only I feel, perhaps, the title may have had sharper focus, without the word "good" , that word being somewhat of a rarefied generality with regard to the qualitative aspects of a piece of writing;
that might seem counter intuitive, but would seem, to me, to be the aim of your argument; to encourage a more insightful, possibly more interesting, and perhaps more helpful environment for the discussion and appreciation of writing, without resorting overly much to this class of words. Apart from that...
1. Pointing out typos is not critiquing. It is being helpful. And there's nothing wrong with doing that in private. I agree with emma that comments/questions as to the merits of writing or ideas are best made in comments, not PMs--so as to invite discussion--but that is not the case with pointing out typos. The same applies to sentences that are garbled inadvertently and the meaning can be inferred: let the writer know in a PM.
2. There are two things that can be critiqued in a piece of writing: what is written and the manner in which it is written, content and style. Critiques of content will differ in approach depending on whether the comment addresses poetry or prose and whether the prose is fiction or nonfiction. Common to all, though, content questions may address whether the writing is organized effectively, whether there is ample support for statements made (this can apply to fiction as well as nonfiction: do we have enough information about a character for his or her actions to make sense?), whether there is another point of view on the matter. Comments on style address how the writing was done and consider the use of figures of speech, pacing, tone, and other literary or rhetorical devices.
Yes, a writer who wishes to improve his or her craft should be open to critiques of either content or style: they tell us what works and what does not. No, such comments are not often made here in OSland, alas. On those occasions when I receive them, I am thrilled.
The most important thing to remember, though, is that critiques are about the text, text, TEXT! Not the writer. And as such, to be effective, they must cite evidence from the text (not the subtext, or the commenter's imagined view of the writer's psyche).
These principles are not, of course, law, just MHO.
I agree with so many comments on here. Susie, Bluestocking babe Matt, Scanner and Linda, took the words out of my mouth.
I welcome the creative critcism of my posts, either in a PM as some of you have done, or in a post.
How else am I suppose to get better at something that I truly enjoy doing, yet suck at, if someone isn't honest with me.
Thank you for this
Hugs
JRamelleThank you for your comments. Any comment that is on the subject of this post which is "Critical Thinking and Good Writing" AND not railroading the intent with other personal or collective agendas is relevant. I'd like to note Inverted Interrobang's point about the title of the post here. Yes, it would have been sharper without the word "Good" - which I added when I adapted an original piece I had prepared for the recent AGM of Professional Writers of Canada, who met in Montreal in late June. I adapted the piece to suit my views about Open Salon and its needs as I see it.
You wrote: "Everything said teaches me something. I take what I can use and leave the rest to the e-ethers." and that is the spirit in which critique should be given and taken. This brings me to address Pilgrim's wise reply in which he states that "Pointing out typos is not critiquing. It is being helpful. And there's nothing wrong with doing that in private. "
I agree and I am certain that many, who extend a helping hand to their fellow writers, do follow this decorum. His second point which starts with the statement: "There are two things that can be critiqued in a piece of writing: what is written and the manner in which it is written, content and style. " captures the essence of the spirit in which I have been offering personal critique albeit few if only because of the reluctance of support and welcome for this kind of gesture or the misinterpretation of the same.
The critique given is (and should be) never about the person, but some writers take it personally and cannot see beyond. This is unfortunate because their rejection of questioning, suggestion or interpretation of their work (unpopular as it may be), rather than engaging in an open-minded discussion and explanation of their intent not only robs the other readers of the benefit of learning, but also discourages open dialogue, and shows the writer as inflexible and unapproachable.
One of the most difficult things a writer must learn is to be able to detach himself from his work even if the work is about himself. Only when he can view his piece through objective eyes and be -for a lack of better word ruthless - can he be fair to the craft of writing and perhaps understand how the reading public may view it and what they may be questioning, dissecting, wanting to know and pointing out as acceptable or not.
Writing is not about ego. It is an art form, a craft that needs to be constantly honed and tuned and sharpened. However, we should not overlook the passion that goes into that craft of expressing our thoughts, revealing our souls, and laying out our ideas for others to share.
The following excerpts from Alexander Pope's "Essay on Criticism" reflect these two views that although writing is an art to be honed, the purpose and passion that lead one to it should be also recognized duly:
"True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance,
'Tis not enough no Harshness gives Offence,
The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense."
* * *
"Whoever thinks a faultless Piece to see,
Thinks what ne'er was, nor is, nor e'er shall be.
In ev'ry Work regard the Writer's End
Since none can compass more than they Intend;
And if the Means be just, the Conduct true,
Applause, in spite of trivial Faults, is due."
--------
Sometimes, many times in fact, I write for no other audience than myself. If a reader finds some bit that speaks to them, that is wonderful, but the desire for that is not what drives my expression. Many folks here, I count myself one–and you as well, write from the soul. How do you criticize the soul? Should you try?
'Many folks here, I count myself one–and you as well, write from the soul. How do you criticize the soul? Should you try?'
Thank you for your comment and the questions you posed. First of all I hadn't thought of comparing the craft of writing or arts to a rote skill such as building a car or bookshelves. That is interesting. As far as writing from the soul, of course one cannot criticise another person's "soul" as you imply. Can one ask questions to understand something that may nor be clear? Should one have that option without being condemned? I believe so.
I hope the excerpts above -from Alexander Pope- also elucidate my feelings on this, but I welcome other opinions.
Good food for thought and great discussion, Fusun!
While the recipient's name has been changed, the rest remains exactly as you wrote it on Joan H.'s post.
Now, imagine if you were greeted with those first two lines in a review of your book , Will Of My Own - something very personal to you and something you've worked incredibly long hours creating?
You write of the value of critical thinking, which is necessary and important. However, it requires a certain detachment and objectivity; a degree of openness and impartiality to utilize its fullest faculties and ultimately, it remains largely the property of 'opinion'. That must always be taken into the equation from the perspective of both the giver and the receiver.
Also, to preface a critique with condescension flies in the face of logic and professional protocol - like being punched in the gut with an explanation for the action following the blow.
I can appreciate what you are writing about here and in theory it is correct. But any principle applied without the benefit of common sense and compassion becomes little more than a weapon fashioned to sharpen and bolster our own egos.
At least that is what I believe. I may be wrong but to me part of the beauty of living and interacting with one another is that we are always learning.....as long as we value the art of respect and diplomacy. Without them our exchanges become little more than controlled combat. We are more than our egos.
Just Jali smiling and rating of course. :-)
It is not: from what I've seen, it's a bunch of different communities. Some of us use OS to showcase and develop our writing, some of us are here mostly for socializing (these are the people who seem to dominate the "Most Rated" feed), and some are here to promote their political opinions or offer streaming video feed of soccer games, etc.
The clashes and hurt feelings come when these groups fail to understand each others' interests and expectations. Political bloggers post comments that they consider friendly challenges or constructive criticism, only to discover they've offended someone who's only on OS for friendship and validation. Writers make cruel comments about bloggers with rotten spelling and grammar, forgetting that said bloggers really couldn't care less--they're here for reasons other than writing. The social butterflies bitch and moan about people they don't know and who don't comment on their blogs (the nerve of them!) getting onto the front cover -- forgetting that Emily is looking for very different things than they are.
My solution? Think of OS as a big city: in every city, there are comfortable and uncomfortable neighborhoods, and depending on who you are, these may vary. Make yourself a home in a neighborhood you feel comfortable in, and few free to explore the others -- but just don't start getting involved with the people in strange 'hoods until you have a good feeling for what you're getting yourself into.
SUSAN:
Thank you for adding your views here. I wish I had similar kind of honest and open critique while I was writing my book. Unfortunately I neither knew of Open Salon at that time, nor did I have anyone to read and give me concrete, harsh, realistic feedback. Had it been so, I would probably have had a far better result but, one always learns from experience. And in my case, I also try to share my learning since this is a writing site - or so I like to think still, in spite of the socializing aspect, which is fine . . .
If someone is writing with a goal to publish, then what better time to get the most and the toughest critique during the writing process; and be open to it rather than close up insist that your work is the best it can be. Maybe it is, and by all means that is the writer's decision. Yet is there a valid reason to shoot the messenger with the message? Let's be honest here. I look back on my writing and feel so critical myself that I wish I had a second chance to do it all over. And there are times when I feel embarrased reading praises. I'd rather read a meaningful, introspective comment that will invite me to think, shake up my grey cells and push me beyond my comfort zone.
To say to a writer that she can do better because what she has done (at this time, implied) is not reflecting her capability, to offer honest and constructive critique if she so wishes, and offer her the option of expanding on these comments is neither egotistical nor condescending. Anyone who interprets them as such is reading a different agenda into these comments.
while it is admirable to want to help others with their writing, it has been my experience that it also becomes an excuse for some to 'hold forth' on a subject they believe to have expertise in.
since i have more interest in how the average joe (or josie) blow has to say than what a (real or imagined) 'expert' has to say, i appreciate critique in that vein.
i think that when anybody critiques, the best way to have their critique 'heard' is to give it as a reader not an expert.
to tell a writer where they may have gotten lost or stumbled in a piece, telling a writer what works or doesnt for them as a reader, and to leave it at that for the writer to sort out; rather than informing or telling the writer how to correct is much more helpful. if the writer truly sees the merit of your critique, they will either find their own answers or seek you out for more info. this also helps avoid trying to impose style changes that might not be what the writer wants/needs.
truth be told, i have read many perfectly correct, all rules followed pieces or writing whose style was pedestrian and it was like watching paint dry. i have also read pieces that broke rules (style rules, not grammar or spelling) that were evocative and compelling and a pure joy to experience... go figure.
at the end of the day all that matters is if the piece works... or doesnt. i think THAT is the stuff critique should be made of.
oh! and i always thinks its good to include some positive info in with every critique (unless its so bad that the best thing you can say is 'nice font'...then say nothing at all). that spoon full of sugar isnt necessary... its just polite.
On Joan's blog, I thought you came on needlessly strong (or 'severe') and also misread her invitation for expanding on your critique.
P.S. - Let's all wait for Bluestocking's next post and critique away... Unless with our easily distracted brains, we forget all about it...
Thank you all for your comments and input. I hope other participants will find them useful too.
FELICIA LEE:
What can I say, when so much of your observations turn out to be validated by the very nature of the range of comments here. You seem to have a good, solid grasp on the nature of this beast called Open Salon, and I do appreciate the obeservations you've shared openly and sincerely. I will know better in the future, I hope. Thank you kindly.
LORIANNE:
I've read through your comments and just wantto reiterate that I posted this as an invitation to help each other not as experts but as fellow writers. Experts would first of all know exactly what to say far better and say it more diplomatically plus they would charge exorbitant fees. Your comments are taken in the good spirit as they are given. Thank you.
MYRIAD:
I don't know if you have read through this post and the comments in their entirety, but I would like to remind for the last time that this is NOT a "popularity contest" or a "bashing blog" as some have already tried railroad it into one. Their comments speak for those few individuals and what they insist on seeing through their narrow mindedness, rather than what is laid out infront of them in black on white. * If there are any more responses like yours stating to be taking sides, they will be deleted. ~BE FOREWARNED ~
There's no need to apologize. I understood what you meant. I wanted to make sure others did. I am just seeing what you have seen before me. Thank you again for your sensitivity.
Sorry Fusun - you fail.
I'm already hot and bothered by that rogue comma. Also, bad form to lead off with a question that isn't really a question. Plus, the sentence doesn't make sense. Second sentence...making a statement and then not really supporting the statement. Third sentence: double negatives and reliance on passive voice. Fourth sentence: a typo? Missing a pronoun - not that it would make sense anyway.
Shall I continue?
May I ask - Do you think that is what happened? - though you stated that this is not about any "other" post, I can't help but wonder why you made this statement.
Fusun also said "this post is not about the trivial. It is about creating a collegial, welcoming, and open-minded atmosphere for writers who are missing it and not to be discouraged by the present state Open Salon is in."
I have considered you a friend here on OS and have welcomed your private PM's about gramatical errors, etc. but I can not let this opportunity pass without saying that I have observed you in the past few days being anything but "collegial, welcoming, and open-minded ". This would be a critique of your "commenting style" rather than of your writing. I hope you will accept this and learn from it.
My apologies for missing your comment. I remember reading it as one of the earlier ones, then as the comments become longer it escaped me. Thank you for a rational and reply which did make me think. I respect your appreciation of the said piece for the reasons very you express. Perhaps for similar reasons I felt it was lacking for me. I am reluctant to elaborate any more at this time since whatever I say is met with a pre-conceived notion of mean spirited intent on my part here.
AIM:
I don't know you from a hole in the wall. I've never read any of your posts nor commented on your work. The same is true for you. You are probably in the wrong place seeking your fun, however, let me help you since you asked for it - albeit indirectly.
"How can we become more critical as readers, if we are to help promote better writing on this forum rather than a mutual admiration society? First of all, that depends on one's choice. It is not the secret of the century that not everyone is here for practicing and improving his/her writing. Nor are promoting a rational, educated discussion regarding writing skills, approaching and discussing different viewpoints among everyone’s priorities"
"I'm already hot and bothered by that rogue comma. Also, bad form to lead off with a question that isn't really a question. " -> That's called a rhetorical question - asked for the effect it creates - doesn't really need an answer.
Like the following by Shylock from "Merchant of Venice"
"Hath not a Jew eyes?
Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions?
If you prick us, do we not bleed, if you tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die?
"Fourth sentence: a typo? Missing a pronoun - not that it would make sense anyway." -> Neither. Don't let the compound subject fool you. :o)
MARLENE:
You wrote:
May I ask - Do you think that is what happened? - though you stated that this is not about any "other" post, I can't help but wonder why you made this statement.
Yes, that is what I see has happened and two individuals, particularly, have been trying to either railroad this post or create a dust-up. When I warned one via pm about the inappropriateness of his comment, his immediate response was that he unfriended me. The rest of his vitriolic comment is here for you to see for yourself.
You wrote:
"I have considered you a friend here on OS and have welcomed your private PM's about grammatical errors, etc. but I can not let this opportunity pass without saying that I have observed you in the past few days being anything but "collegial, welcoming, and open-minded ". This would be a critique of your "commenting style" rather than of your writing. I hope you will accept this and learn from it."
---
I have considered you and many people friends as well too, Marlene. Would you be kind enough to give me one example of my "uncollegial, unwelcoming, and non open-minded responses" - without referring to the one critique I made a mistake of offering, which no one is willing to be open-minded about either its intent or its content? Otherwise, I'll think that you too are trying to stab the messenger rather than paying attention to the message - just like everyone else. Who is being closed minded and unwelcoming in that case?
I also hope we can ALL learn from this.
There are some terrific writers here, but there is no "community" in the sense of widely agreed upon standards or motives. The commenter who likened this place to a city with neighborhoods made a smart point...But it's a city in which thugs wander over and start face-punching whenever and wherever it looks like there's a juicy target and a gathering crowd to cheer and jeer. Emma and I know this firsthand, as do a few others.
The difference is that real communities and cities have cops to disperse and punish bullies and quell mayhem. Sadly, and to its detriment, OS largely does not.
Your loss. She’s an excellent writer and very perceptive.
“Like the following by Shylock from ‘Merchant of Venice’”
Really? You resort to the “Hath not a Jew eyes?” quote as an example? Are you trying to subtly wrap yourself in victimhood? That’s pathetic.
“without referring to the one critique I made a mistake of offering”
Come on, Fusun. This WHOLE thing was about that one critique and the fact that the writer and her readers strongly rejected it.
Second, it seems a fair amount of the "disagreements" that have happened are related to the inability of either the writer/blogger or the reader/commenter to distinguish the intent of the writing or to distinguish between the relevance of their opinion vs critical observation. Critique is an evaluation, which will include hearing things we aren't expecting to hear or may not want to.
The blog as a forum of personal expression can be either an avenue of wider discussion or just an outpouring of emotional (and egotistical) opinion- which is inherently narrow. Whether one learns to express themselves more openly in their blog can be a reflection of how they interact with others in life. If writing is your medium, you must learn that it is up to you as the writer to communicate what you are trying to express. In life, it is up to you as an individual to be clear in your intentions and expectations.
In spite of my efforts to keep thugs out and maintain focus on the purpose of this post, a few seem to keep coming back. Some closed minded ones simply to sling barbes and arrows and have their fun at my expense, others to bring popcorn and watch a show. They must think the post needs their chicanery, or that's all they can offer. Rather juvenile and unfortunate, but I overlook those in favor of the positive that is here. Thank you for dropping by with your input.
MATT:
I'm surprised that Chicken Maaan hasn't shown up to fortify your personal attack front yet. Or does he only serve as your alter to double rate posts so they look more popular than they are? In any case, Matt and Chicken Maaan, you have demonstrated your closed minded rigidness by attacking a person and not even explaining why you believe a comment that was offered is not agreeable with your intellect(?). For a reporter who is supposed to be objective and non judmental, these are highly questionable characteristics. As distatsteful as they are your comments stay here as a testament of who you really are, they have no bearing on who I am.
You have been trying to derail this post right from the beginning with this comment you made to Emma Peel :
"@Emma - So instead of offering professional advice here you spend precious time spitting vitriol at people you hate. You get paid for that?"
When I warned you in a pm about the inappropriateness of your comment, your immediate response was "I am unfriending you".
Your motives are personal, not professional, and you are acting out of character (or maybe within character and I haven't seen it until now). In any case, I will ask you not to come back here again with your personal insults and own agenda. You have added nothing of value on this post.
CRANKY:
I'm sure I miss many great writers whose works I haven't had the time to read or discover.
My Shylock refernece was used as an example of a rhetoric sentece as Aime did not seem to know what one was. Please do not read unintented contexts into my responses - this has been your problem all along.
And, CRANKY, for the last time, this WHOLE thing is NOT about what you and MATT are trying desperately to make it to be. This post is NOT about
"that one critique and the fact that the writer and her readers strongly rejected it". You like it, I have reservations... We talk, we have some some wine, we laugh, we agree to disagree, and we move on... That is how a civilized, intelliegent discussion goes on; not by ganging on one individual who sees something differently from the rest of the group. And this is EXACTLY what you have been doing.
I thanked you for your critique. I was not offended. I said so several times in comments to others. I did not find your critique useful and I told you so.
There have been no hard feelings whatsoever on my part. Everyone does not have to "get" or even like my writing.
I thanked you and that should have been the end of it.
Instead, you are making up all kinds of stories about me to people I am friends with here and have even called me "passive-aggressive."
If staying out of a ridiculous dust-up is "passive-aggressive" than perhaps I am.
I was done with this when I answered your comment on my post three days ago. I hope you can move on as well.
JOAN:
In case you are still unaware, this post is not about you and I don't think it is upto you to tell me how far to carry a post on Critical Thinking and Writing.
You write:
"I did not find your critique useful and I told you so.
There have been no hard feelings whatsoever on my part. Everyone does not have to "get" or even like my writing.
I thanked you and that should have been the end of it.
Instead, you are making up all kinds of stories about me to people I am friends with here and have even called me "passive-aggressive."
If staying out of a ridiculous dust-up is "passive-aggressive" than perhaps I am."
Exactly. That should have been the end of it. I said my critique was there for you to do as wished. But that wasn't the end of it. Instead, your "freinds" not only ganged up on me personally on your blog, but they have been trying to hijack this one - which has NOTHING to do with your "Barbies of Avenue A" - non-stop, and trying incessantly to turn it into a dust-up.
Your accusation that I am making up all kinds of stories about you is also a lie and a low attempt at adding to the efforts of Cranky and Matt.
I expressed my opinion on your piece, offered my thoughts, you didn't like them. Fine. I moved on long ago. However, I will not have you or anyone else come here to violate my blog with their personal agenda.
Now, if you have something to address on the content of this post, by all means go ahead.
Thank you for your visit and comments. I appreciate your clear and unbiased view which address writing/blogging and reading/commenting. Critiquing is a form of evaluation and hearing what we aren't willing or expecting to hear is part of the process. Creating a conducive forum for this type of give and take promotes a positive atmosphere and congeniality among the participants. In such circumstances, something which may be misunderstood can be questioned and explained, rather than be shunned as "mean" or vitriolic".
What I have learned in the process of having this post up is that some bloggers are not writers who are safe within their skin are feel threatened by questions which they cannot answer about their thinking process or writing. They find safety in numbers and denial. It has been a learning experience.
On the other hand, I am glad to see that the post has generated more positive response and brought out the kind of writers who are open to civil discussion, critique, questioning, and improving their writing. To paraphrase something you stated in your response, Whether one learns to express himself more openly in his blog can be a reflection of how he interacts with others in life.
Thank you, for staying on topic and adding to this forum!
I just commented in another blog that I don't see myself as a deep thinker. That said, I have no idea what to say, almost.
I want to be here to join in and make blogging friends. I love to write. Most of what I write is silliness about my pets and other joys. I don't know 'deep' or 'critical' from spam-- the freaky meat that comes in a can. But I know what I like -- country music, science fiction, romance, gardening, pets, foriegn speaking friends-- I have a thing about accents. And I know what I don't like -- large slices of onions, overly hot or cold days....
In the last few months I have read several books on writing and in one of them was a comment about interpretation of a person's work. It basically went like this, "What you write and what others read may not be the same." I think that may be important to understand after reading this blog as I am not sure what you want to accomplish from this --I am not being critical (imagine me with my head cocked to the side in confusion)
Please know I look forward to reading more of your blogs and getting to know you better. But I freely admit I don't always get what people are trying to say.
Have a great day and a great discussion.
Thank you for visiting my blog- I also fail to understand the intent behind some of the comments, but don't let them detract you from the purpose of the of this piece.
AUNTYNAE:
Please feel free to ask if you don't get something in my writing. I'll be very happy to discuss and explain what I meant, if the meaning was not clear. Thank you for visiting and I look forward to reading your writing too.
PAUL FORNALE:
Thank you for your open-mindedness and unbiased appreciation of my blog.
GENERAL COMMENTS:
Thanks to all whom I missed mentioning by name for their constuctive contribution, as well as to all those who sent private notes supporting this post.