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JUNE 17, 2009 9:17PM

Flickr zaps photos: Bad for citizen journalism

Rate: 13 Flag
By King Kaufman: Flickr is often held up as a building block of the citizen-journalism future. Twitter, Flickr, YouTube, Facebook, blogs.

But the photo sharing site has no future as a key tool in the journalism racket if it plans to keep acting the way it acted toward Shepherd Johnson last week. Johnson says the site deleted his paid account with no warning and wiped out over 1,000 photos, all without a formal explanation.

Johnson had posted several comments on photos in the official White House photostream that were critical of President Obama's support for suppressing torture photos. Someone -- probably someone from the White House charged with moderating comments -- deleted them. So Johnson posted some more comments, embedding an Abu Ghraib photo in one of them. Then he found his entire account zapped, and his photos gone.

A source who knows how Flickr works says that anyone viewing the site could have flagged Johnson's comments as abusive, and if enough flags are raised, a low-level worker somewhere deletes the account, photos included. It's a matter of an employee following instructions, with little judgment involved. Flickr keeps no backups. Any deletion is permanent.

Gawker reports that Johnson appealed to Flickr co-founder Stewart Butterfield, hoping Butterfield would step in and moderate the conversation between Johnson and Flickr VP for customer service Heather Champ, who had first told Johnson he'd been deleted for "spamming" the White House photostream, then, after some back and forth, had blocked him from sending her any more messages.

Butterfield told Johnson he's no longer involved with Flickr, but added that he'd known and worked with Champ for years, and: "If she's blocked you, it's because you're a dick."

That very well may be, but it's beside the point.

Here's the point: Flickr's policies in this area might be perfectly logical at every step of the way. Account-holders can moderate comments on their own photostreams. Users can flag abusive commenters. Flickr is in the photo-sharing, not the photo-storage, business, and does not back up the millions of images posted to the site.

But the way all that plays out in real life is that a photographer gets zapped for exercising his right to free speech and loses two years' worth of work.

This isn't going to work out for journalists. Should Johnson have backed up his photos? Sure. And eaten his broccoli while he was at it. But this is the real world. Johnson, like most Flickr users, I'd wager, trusted the site not to summarily delete his photos without any kind of warning because he'd rubbed enough of his fellow users the wrong way.

What if he weren't "a dick"? What if he were just a guy with an opinion that a certain bunch of people don't like -- abortions should be safe and legal, let's say, or John McCain would have been a better president than Barack Obama -- and that group organized to flag the hell out of him and get him booted?

I had just been thinking recently that I've fallen so far behind in curating and posting pictures of my kids to my personal blog that maybe I should just dump them onto Flickr. I'd have less control over the presentation, but it'd be easier and I could still write captions.

After the Johnson incident, I don't think I'm going to do that -- even though I back up every photo I upload to Flickr. If I were a real journalist taking important pictures, I wouldn't dream of doing it. I'd find a site that would host and display my photos with an assurance that those photos wouldn't disappear without warning.

And if there weren't such a site, I'd get to work creating one.

If Flickr is going to be a useful tool for the next generation of citizen journalists, it should not be deleting photos without warning. The worker has to have power over the tools, not the other way around.

If a user deserves to be banned, ban the user. But would it be prohibitively difficult to give that user, say, a 48-hour window to back up his or her photos if necessary, and to appeal the banishment, before the whole collection gets vaporized? A message to Yahoo, Flickr's corporate parent, asking that question was not returned.

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mm, I think our very own T&D (aka beloved FreakyTroll) got a slap on the hand at Flicker at one point. So good judgment- eh?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tequilaanddonuts/
wow. thanks for the update. i've been very interested in watching these platforms evolve, and this is troubling.

this is one reason i won't get a pro account from them.
This is a good point. A friend of mine -- Nathan Good -- has done some pretty extensive studies showing that people never read software policies and license agreements, even if they are installing software that might introduce spyware. Flickr should understand that people's mental model of the site's operation differs significantly from the content in their pro forma notices.
It is pretty insane that Flickr doesn't say something like, "We're going to be nuking your account in 7 days, so you'd better save everything now or it'll be gone for ever." That would at least give people time to backup their stuff.

As a journalist, I post stuff to Flickr all the time; but I have the luxury of covering relatively non-controversial topics -- public transit, urban planning, arts & leisure type stuff. If I ever thought that my content or conduct might get flagged, I'd just host it on my own site. Angering the capricious invisible Flickr wizards isn't worth the risk.
Guess it's agood thing that folks like Breslin, Royko, Woodward, and Bernstien weren't using Flickr's services for journalism.
This seems to be all too common on flickr. I agree, they need a better process for handling it, as you say. A suspension of the account while you argue over whether it is warranted and have some time to backup your photos if you wish to do so. I definitely use it as photo storage and I've heard enough of these cases that I now use a second alter-ego account if I'm going to make any comments that might be considered controversial. But, it shouldn't have to be that way.
So essentially you could organize a campaign against someone to flag their comments as abusive and when they pass a certain number of complaints the account is deleted, no questions asked? That's what I took from your post. There didn't seem to be any 'hey dude a lot of people don't like you, what say ye?' from Flickr. More like a lot of people don't like this guy, zap. You'd think there'd be more of a process, some warning system in place, at least for the zap part.

So what does a Flickr pro account give you other than the chance to give Flickr your money?
It is somewhat distrubing. However, we've only heard the story from Johnson. We haven't heard the story from the other side. Maybe that guy was being a pestulent dick. Maybe he shouldn't have posted photos he didn't take (Abu Ghraib photos for example). Maybe he should have stopped when the White House started deleting his comments. If you keep posting sh!t after someone else has deleted it- it is the worst form of spamming. It is supremely annoying and the only way to stop spammers is to ban them.
How well would a "dick" defense stand in court? And what kind of service would publicly call a customer a "dick"?
Wow. This post makes me think. I HATE that!

The estimable Noam Chomsky has the last word on freedom of expression, I think: "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."

I think Scott Carter's point is important: the site isn't necessarily about complete freedom of expression, although the public perception leans in that direction.

It seems as though Flickr management allows quite a variety of expression (drift through the tag cloud one of these days), but political expression doesn't have a home.
Flickr decided it didn't want him as a customer, because he had apparently been harassing another customer (i.e. the White House). So, Flickr dropped him. Seems entirely within their rights.
I've had a Flickr account for a few years now, and I have seen this happen more than once. The problem lies in Flickr staff (and Yahoo! as the parent company) being too quick to hit that huge red "DELETE ACCOUNT" button, which is irreversible.
I have complained in the forums there that staff need to actually LOOK AT the photos of the person being accused and make their judgement based on what they SEE, not what someone else SAYS. Deven's situation was compounded by the fact that they set loose a program bot to systematically delete comments she had made on other people's photos as well - comments that, now erased for eternity, leave discussions with a gaping hole in them.
This whole "We reserve the right to delete all your stuff at any time for any reason" shit needs to go. In America (which is Yahoo!'s base of operations, I believe) you are supposed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. Staff have the ability to take anyone's photostream out of public view - they've done it in the past - while they sorted out complaints and issues. That is by far a more fair scenario than the one they seem to favor (the knee-jerk deletion of accounts).

Thumbed.
I liked the Orwellian description that Flickr staff used with regard to TequilaandDonuts (Deven's) account--"scrubbing from the Flickrverse." And as Bill said, that scrubbing commenced on the word of some sanctimonious troll (my opinion), and not on the corpus of her involvement on Flickr. They also apologized to her, sort of, and Heather promised to send her a sparkly plaque with that apology. Though maybe wiser more legal heads prevailed that said plaque could be used as amicus evidence in a class action suit.

But there are many egregious examples of Flickr hitting the panic button before the brain engaged, like they gave supreme authority to interns or something. The Icelandic photographers scrubbing was unjustified (amazing photos). The whole "Think Flickr, Think" grass roots protest in re the Yahoo takeover and how that affected German patrons was clumsily handled as well.

They have a history. I have all my Flickr images backed up on DVD from a third party service, just in case they go postal or apeshit again.

And, I don't like Heather (good thing I have backups).
Good bones for an expose. Unfortunately, this sort of arrogance and personal agenda is endemic on the varieties of sharing sites.