Gwool's Links

Salon.com
JUNE 15, 2009 10:54AM

Censorship? We Don’t Know How Lucky We Are.

Rate: 38 Flag

A recent blog post seems to be sniffing around the difficulty that is the ongoing development of internet communities such as this one.  Personalities clash.  Typical societal constraints of having to actually look at the object of your wrath in the eye as you utter whatever it is that comes out of your mouth do not apply as you sit in your basement listening to the hum of the fluorescent lights as you pound at the keyboard, amusing yourself at the pithiness of your snotty rejoinder.

 So we become ruder.

 As news sources blogs have imbued a sense of lawlessness to “journalism.”  Anything goes.  Any opinion or alleged story can be told and then sent out into the ether where, with a few choice Diggs and Reddits, it becomes gospel to the tens of thousands of viewers who stumble upon it.

 Newspapers had editors who checked the work to make sure it was accurate before it went out the door.  Some argue this squashed stories.  In fact it squashed libel cases.  

 So our news sources have become less professional.

 The Drudge Report gained notoriety for this.  One can argue Matt was the first powerful blogger out there.  Now there’s literally thousands, and they are not all from the right, either, as anyone who has read the musings of that brilliant, self described GayNewYawkJoowishLawyah, Glenn Greenwald can attest.

So telling someone to leave an internet community or taking down the writings of someone on an internet community would not be censorship at all, it would be a private enterprise seeking to coerce its patrons to behave in a manner that coincides with their desired marketing image. 

 But if an internet community does that, the knee jerk response happens to be to decry the censorship and injustice of it all. 

 Perhaps I have a simplistic view, but for me there has to be government involvement for there to be censorship.  OpenSalon taking down a post or comment would not be censorship.  It might piss a lot of people off for it being biased and a lot of lemmings would race to the cliff bleating about the first amendment and censorship, but they would be wrong.  Government drives censorship.  Not private enterprise.

 Enter a restaurant, get loud, and go off on a little Tourette’s spree yelling cunt or nigger or worse (is there worse?) at the top of your lungs and see how long it takes for you to be thrown out on your rear.  Well, hanging around OpenSalon or an equivalent doing the same thing merits the same response by the owners: Leave the premises.  Private enterprises can do that for cause, Equal Protection under the 14th amendment not withstanding.

 And that is not censorship.  It does not take huge amounts of courage to bitch and moan about the way in which the OS managers do things.  It gets put up daily as various folks decry the Editor’s Pick selection process or the quality of some of the ones selected or omitted.  There definitely is a “Mom Likes You Best” channel around here.

 Doing that does not put your life in jeopardy of that of your family members.  Doing that does not put you in jail.  It really does not take a lot of courage to come up with that.  All it takes is an emotional reaction and an inability to sit with whatever it was that ticked you off before applying fingers to keyboard.

 Compare and contrast that to one of my heroes, the college student in Tiananmen Square, who stood before the tanks on June 5, 1989 to stop them.

 

240px-Tianasquare
 

 

 That took balls. 

Huge.  Balls.

 And understand what the government did after the fact as written up by that shakiest of sources, Wikipedia, from whence the above picture was downloaded:

 Following the violence, the government conducted widespread arrests to suppress protesters and their supporters, cracked down on other protests around China, banned the foreign press from the country and strictly controlled coverage of the events in the PRC press. Members of the Party who had publicly sympathized with the protesters were purged, with several high-ranking members placed under house arrest, such as General Secretary Zhao Ziyang. The violent suppression of the Tiananmen Square protest caused widespread international condemnation of the PRC government.[2]

 None of the nonsense that gets people wrapped around the axle on this joint will result in this kind of true censorship.

So the real issue becomes one of what kind of private establishment is desired.  Management typically does not want to have to get into the middle of personality disputes about who did what to whom.  Hence any kind of content monitoring opens up a Pandora’s Box of grievances and flouncings not unlike the white noise that is the whine fest over front cover content.

 I am unaware of provocative content being expunged.  I am unaware of people banned from participation.  All either of those actions will do is increase exponentially complaints to management about the unfairness of it all.

 And it is not unfair.  No one is threatening to crush us with tanks should we err from their playbook.

 We have the right to say pretty much whatever we want in this country with a tip of the hat to the “fire in a crowded theatre” concept.  Similarly we have the right to associate  or not associate with people expressing whatever thought it is they happen to hold.  Our rejecting collectively certain thoughts within the confines of a privately owned entity does not constitute censorship.  

 It’s the simple concept of freedom of assembly.  Truly dangerous and insidious censorship requires government action.  

 So bitch and moan about the tenor and tone of the place.  Lament the content.  Rip the editors for playing favorites or for being too liberal or too conservative.  But for the love of God, remember you are free to leave, just as they are free to ask you to leave, and neither you nor the editors have to fear being jailed by the government for undertaking the actions. 

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Good, solid post. Rated and appreciated because it got me to think. (Ok, it also kept me away from work for awhile too) But I have a question. By limiting censorship to government---where would you classify the banning of books? I saw a list put out by the American Library Association of books they've been asked to keep out of libriaries or scheel boards have banned. Would you call that censorship? And if so---is it govt? Just asking---cause am not sure what I think.
You will get no argument from me on this, Geoff. Very well said. No response is sometimes a stronger response than a bile spilling tirade. To ignore is as much of a choice as to participate and escalate the temperature of the rhetoric. Deciding to return to the scene of the vitriol is a decision everyone can make. Or not. I can't remember whose post it was, but they said "nobody can win an internet argument." But if one so chooses, they can still try. And there are some that always will.
THANK YOU. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

There have popped up, like mushrooms in a shitty dark place, a few nasty corners of OS. Guess what? I have a superpower! I never see them! I can, using powers of skimming, deduction, and extrapolation, gauge the tenor of said spots and AVOID THEM through the magical machinations of my All Powerful Clicky Finger.

Nobody in the history of the net has ever won a flame war. Nobody has ever "stood up" to a troll and "won." It's all pissing into the wind, and no thanks...I've got other stuff to read and learn and discover.

But thank you for pointing out that having posts that violate TOS deleted does not equal "censorship." That kind of whinging drives me bonkers (which is why I don't see it anymore).
Gwool,
You're right. The place I draw the line here on OS is when one member threatens another member with violence. That, for me, violates the standards. Like VR, if there's some kind of pissing contest going on, I step away from it, try not to respond to someone who's there to provoke me (although I'm guilty of being shitty back at times--I'm human). Nobody from the gov't is going to track us down because of what gets said here.
But I think those who start threatening to hunt down members of OS are over the line.
Powerful, powerful stuff. Thank you.
Some people think free speech means whatever they feel like it meaning... and yelling "fire" in a theater is fun.

The internet is a lot like moving away to college. Nobody knows the story about how you puked on that teacher in the third grade. You can be anyone you want to be out here... a lot of boring, scared people dream of being asshats, because they'd never get away with it in real ife.

It is like those old exercise ads in the back of comics.. When the nerd gets sand kicked in his face at the beach... he always goes and buys the exo-pro (or thighmaster or whatever)... then comes back and beats up the bully. The answer is always be like the people that bullied you.

That is why Microsoft is intent on crushing everyone... Nerd rage revenge on everyone else... ha ha ha.

People get stepped on all day at their shitty jobs (or in my case lack of jobs) and come on the internet to vent their rage...because they can't do it in real life. Some of these people are just sad... some are evil evil people with no ability to kick puppies in real life... so some of you all get to be kicked.

I don't get mad at them... haven't for years. I just feel sorry for them (which makes them madder). Being so mean and petty on the internet is a pretty wretched hobby to have, isn't it?

(rated)
OS is the Free Press. Every blog is the Free Press. Well, some are the Yellow Press. Excellent post, well written. xox
Crap lost a chunk in the middle. Modern news people are often petty and mean (even the TV ones). Sometimes I think most news anchors hate their lives. How many of the retired ones have come out with autobiographies sporting massive depression and drugs/alcoholism?
Uh-huh, uh-huh. *Nods in agreement*

HOWEVER, people still need to remember that they aren't free to say any damn thing that they want. I've maintained from the beginning that we each make a choice when we come across a personally offensive post or comment - respond with a post or comment of our own, or simply let it go. Sometimes, a response is necessary. The trick is to learn when that is. As Kenny Rogers said, "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run."
Well reasoned logical post and I agree. There is power in ignoring. There is power in space.
Well said. Rated. I can't add to what others before me have said on this subject.
Wow Wooly ~ GREAT post ... though I often think about crushing you with a tank ... but, you really raise some excellent points and I'm looking forward to seeing this thread develop.
ChiGuy: Libraries receive public funding. They are a government entity. Likewise, school boards are locally elected, and therefore political. So book banning would be censorship. Suggesting they won’t let a book out to someone under 18 would be perhaps a different issue. It’s one of the glorious gray areas to a subject most often discussed in black and white terms.

Cartouche: Yeah, some folks are stubborn about that, and some of the most obnoxious can think they won by virtue of having the last word. I got over that a long time ago, as I simply have not found there to be much use in discussing hot button issues with the intractable.

Verbal: Not a problem. I stay away from drama llamas, but every once in a while when I get a little pissy about censorship allegations. To me equating what might happen on places like this to true censorship like that I referenced diminishes the true meaning of the word in a way similar when folks like to equate extremists in THOUGHT to Nazis who slaughtered millions indiscriminately. It debases and degrades the memory of truly horrific examples of the transgression.

Finger: Not sure the background, so I am not comfortable offering commentary. I know the leeriness. I wrote a paid column for a blog site based in the Arab world and was very leery of writing much that might be considered controversial for fear of some guy showing up on my door with a couple pounds of explosives and having the shout “Jihad!” be the last thing I heard before going off to nail 72 virgins. Wait? I don’t get’em, too?

Walter: Thanks for the kind commentary.

Traigus: You nail it. I sum it up a tad more harshly than you by suggesting it is Cowardice. I like to think I have a similar voice in real life, in writing, and in speaking. Yeah, I convey gruff bravado a bit in humor pieces about the battle of the sexes and the like, but that is a much different personality “split” than the kind you describe there. One’s a humor persona. The other, if taken to an extreme could get you on the nightly news being led out of a church tower after dusting off a bus load of high school athletes heading into a McDonald’s on the way home from an away game sporting event. Traigus, your follow up post is interesting. I did presidential campaign press advance. I am not sure I saw that. I did in a couple, but not as a universal statement. Newspaper guys are edgy, as that industry is tanking faster than the Titanic right now, as they fucked up their pricing model early in the internet age and haven’t found a solution to that yet.

Robin: But, understand, Robin the Free Press had regulation that was the management structure that TAUGHT how to write responsible stories. In the internet world we do not have that. Indeed. The odd perversity of the current state of the journalistic market happens to be that the niche providing the greatest amount of market information is the one the consumer values least. Newspaper guys like Jeremiah Horrigan are the ones who dig out the stories. Then Joe Scarborough pays $0.75 for it or gets it online for free and builds a show around it.

JK: You get it. It’s a business, not a government conspiracy to suppress the citizenry.

Bill S.: Yeah, you have to pick your spots. Rather like raising adolescents, because, when it comes to the internet, we all can get a little juvenile about it, at times, thanks to the intoxicant that is anonymity.

Mary: Ignoring space? How do you do that?

OE: Speechless? This doesn’t mean I censored you, does it? 

Imom: Run me over with a tank? Oh, man, the comeback lines I have for this one….
so Wooly ... does that mean you are "self-censoring"???

HA
Well done - you cranky old coot. If they haven't tossed either one of us out on our asses yet, it's safe to assume that OS welcomes anyone.
Imom: I'm still thinking about your legs hitting the piano stool. It leaves me speechless.

Sheldon: Well, we're both endangered species. Talking horses and angry white middle aged males don't grow on trees, you know.
G,

There is a lot of sniping in the news. A lot of TV people are taking nasty shots at Republicans (as an example)... not for their politics, but for the way the press was treated during the Bush years... basically it is personal revenge.

Cable news is the worst. CNN is ambushing people on a daily basis. Watch the anchors roll their eyes, cut people off, or choose who has the last word.

Fox has always done it, but I'd like to expect better of other channels.


Newspapers tend to reserve their crazier opinions to the editorials, but read the news feed on the right side of Salon sometimes... a lot of the stuff taken from the AP site is really biased in a wild-eyed crazy way.

As a kind of experiment, my browser homepage is Google News. The bizarre headlines and stories that show up there often reek of insane message board posts about a story rather than news (not talking about the Entertainment articles either)... Often these are lifted from smaller newspaper websites.

There should be a a stronger requirement to being a journalist than having a copy of the AP stylebook... if people even require even that now ha ha.

I have noting better to do than read this stuff all day, with the TV on. Having useful things to do all day, I'm not surprised you don't see it.
Great post, Gwool. So many places in the world, there are real, institutional threats for what we would consider minor disagreement with the party line.

In the late 80's, I worked as a "dish dog" in the college cafeteria, alongside some students from China. I was being my obnoxious self, making jokes about everything - the food, the administration, politics. They smiled, but rarely laughed. I though maybe it was the language barrier (or that I just wasn't that funny - always a possibility).

One day as we were eating, one of them asked me where I learned all those jokes. I said I made them up as I went along, mostly. She said they were funny, but that in China, such jokes would probably get someone jailed or worse - so they reflexively didn't laugh at jokes until they could decide whether laughing at them would get them in trouble.

Gave me a new appreciation for our country, and additional concern for theirs.
Ahhh heck, if they haven't thrown me out, well, it must be some really low standards to get thrown out of here!!

:)

Excellent post my friend, rated as always!
Traigus: You might be right about them "taking it out" on conservatives for the way Bush rode roughshod over the press at times. I don't know. I would like to think they are better than that.

Owl: That is an excellent, excellent point that I do not think more than about 15% of the population fully appreciates. Some clown gets told to shut up or be quiet and they seek to find the nearest fainting couch, feign self rightous indignation, and whine they are being censored. No, you were acting like an asshole and got called on it. Grow up. Or not. But shut up.

Tink: If that post about sex on the porn shop floor didn't get you axed, nothing will.
It's kinda nice that no matter what fool thing I say, the worst that can happen is someone will call me names. I can live with that.
CatFeeder: Thanks. Stop By anytime.

Mrs. Michaels: Glad to see you have surfaced. Does pointing and laughing count as calling you names???
Now, who would point and laugh at ME? Really, what nonsense.

And I wanted to make sure that the medical procedures were all taken care of before poking my head out. I am a firm believer in patient confidentiality.
"Hence any kind of content monitoring opens up a Pandora’s Box of grievances and flouncings."

Best to stay away for that altogether. As for cover's and EP's, I don't always agree but that's how it goes. Well, there was that one time I went off about EP's but that was just performance art... really.
Well said. We OS bloggers have freedom to choose.
Outstanding post, Geoff...and you so perfectly expressed the idea. Thank you for this.
You are a smart man -regardless of certain stories you have told that may make people think otherwise. I love the way you write, it is truly like listening to someone talk. May not always agree with everything you say but I have nothing but respect for the way you say it - this time, I am in full agreement.
Mrs. Michaels. What medical procedures we talking about?

Karin: I don’t know. You might be a little strong. I was simply trying to suggest to folks that they really ought to think twice before throwing around the word censorship. What happens to people in other countries when they seek to express themselves does not need to be trivialized by being compared to what goes on in this country. I remember battling like hell over this when folks were whining about protest zones for presidential conventions as was established around the Fleet Center in Boston for Kerry in 2004. It was not censorship, fool, it was merely a security measure.

Phaedo: I think that assessment is a little dark. Evil exists out there, sure, but we always manage to step it up when necessary to beat it back into submission. I almost feel like updating that story to mention how the Tianenman square episode is not widely known about WITHIN China, as determined when some western reporters sought to interview college kids on the 20th anniversary of this thing.

Cap’n: I didn’t realize your name was Art.

Mr. Mustard: Yes. We do.

Persephone: Thanks.

Mamoore: Your assessment of my writing pleases me greatly. I try to use the same voice in person as I do on the internet, and I do pretty much speak it to my fingers, as it were, to hit the keyboard. Makes for some problematic business copy, but it can work.
I think there is a distinction between “censorship” and a violation of “freedom of speech rights.” But if we consider censorship to mean violating such a right, I agree that “there has to be government involvement for there to be censorship.”

I think people often forget that much of what is considered a violation of “constitutionally protected” speech, actually is not. The First Amendment is actually quite limited in its scope, and much of what is considered protected under that amendment is really just interpretation:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

The entire text pertains directly to governmental action.

RATED
Walkaway: Ole? Ouch.

Phaedo: Take it and run with it.

Rick: You really nail the central point. Our founders were not trying to tell us how to lead our lives or with whom to associate. They were simply telling us that government would not do that. We wanted to do that to ourselves, then go right ahead and do so. Government would stay out of the way. They really would likely be aghast at the continued encroachments there, and I am not saying necessarily we turn it all the way in strict, tin foil helmet constructionist fashion, but we do have to acknowledge what society needs to hold itself together now is a damn sight different from back then. We could be little agrarian enclaves rather than part of a global village. Interstate commerce? What was that back then?

And on and on.
Geoff: So refreshing, as usual.

Though I've given in to temptation in the past (bless me, father, for I have sinned...) I've found that one of the invaluable, absolutely essential aspects of OS is struggling to NOT react to a post that gets under your skin.

You see someone's post up on the cover, you can't believe he/she is there again, you try to move on but something's eating at you, you've got to go back and see if he / she's learned anything since the last EPd post that drove you up the wall so back you go and sure enough it's just as bad -- worse -- than the last one. It's ignorance on the hoof, unbridled, witless, predictable . . . predictable. Yeah. Maybe even . . .familiar. Something as familiarly dishonest as that story I wrote back when, the way I used to cultivate making bald, baseless assertions to cut and skewer the innocent and the guilty back in my green days, back when I KNEW how the world worked, or how it should work, and how anybody who didn't agree with me was a schlump, a loser, someone beneath contempt.

When I'm lucky, I recognize my self in the posts that I dislike, the ones that cry out to me for the quick flick of a sharp word. The mirror posts that reflect back to me all my stored up anger and urge to hurt, cleverly, always cleverly.

I begin by cursing their very existence and wind up shocked that I'm still so easily trapped by emotions I thought I had under control.

And if I'm very lucky, even if I indulge myself and type up a wicked comment, I file it to my e-mail and go to bed. No one reads it but me, in the morning, when a good night's rest and some grace from above have allowed me -- not made me -- to see the danger of engaging in what is fundamentally a violent act that brings no light to the situation and most assuredly brings darkness on me.

Which is a long-winded way of saying thank God for those posts that drive me to see something about myself.

PS - This isn't what I intended to write, but that's another grand thing about OS -- having the chance to discover what's been on your mind, to write it and explore it and to be heard.

Thanks for the unexpected opportunity Geoff.
I feel ya, Gwool. Thank you for responding to my response!
Timely and succinct, a well-reasoned argument. However, I think you're being a bit simplistic about the notion that only the govt can censor. Two instances pop immediately to mind, both involving CBS.

The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, though obviously a commercial success, was removed from the air for what were plainly political reasons. It could be argued it was just comedy, so where's the beef? The answer is easily found by pointing to the role of the "fool" in literature, especially Shakespeare. Still, an argument was successfully made that CBS had a right to act against its own commercial interest, though god knows how that's justified to shareholders.

However, CBS took it on the chin in a similar, but far more ominous case -- the cave-in by 60 Minutes to Big Tobacco on the segment with scientist Dr. Jeffrey Wigand that was initially censored. The story was well-told in the movie The Insider, so I won't go into it here.

Wigand's case is just one example where private interest -- in this case both the tobacco company and CBS -- should not outweigh public good. Censorship is not a corporate "right" in these situations regardless of "non-disclosure" agreements, a fact borne out in the subsequent court case involving these matters.

Unfortunately, that wasn't a lot of solace to Wigand who paid a very heavy price for merely speaking the truth. Meanwhile the seven lying under oath CEOs at Big Tobacco continue to reap rich rewards for their villainy -- that's not how it's 'sposed to be.
Karin: Fair Point. I was just trying to make sure it wasn't too terribly caustic.

Steve/Robin: Thanks.

Jeremiah: Ever thought of teaching a journalism class? That sense of balance and the like seems missing in some. I learned a lot hanging around as the kid press advance guy back in 79 and 80 and learned a ton from these guys in bars, frankly. There was a fairness to the efforts that seems missing these days. It's more and more a game of Gotcha and the desire to prove they are smarter than the people they cover. You even get it in the small dailies where the kids all want to be the next woodward or bernstein, and they think your alleged transgression is going to be what will put them over the top. They're actually kind of fun to play with.

Tom: I would submit the Smothers' Brothers problem was wrestling with the FCC Censors and playing games with them in terms of the script, so that had a government component to it. I am not as familiar with the 60 minutes segment. Spiking stories might seem like that, but perhaps there were valid reasons in terms of fact checking and the like, and the desire to tred carefully? Someone had the piece on exploding trucks that had issues, and Rather messed up on seeking to nail W to the wall as I recall as well. That filter that can be viewed as censorship is sometimes just caution at fact checking, no?
Snotty Rejoinder would be the best screen name ever!
The CBS capitulation -- including the most shameful episode in Mike Douglas' career -- wasn't a problem with fact-checking; it was a problem of fact-ducking. Watch the movie The Insider -- an Oscar-worthy performance by Russell Crowe by the way -- and we'll talk again.
Tom: Ok, so it was a function of picking battles. No one was under threat of jail time for running with the story or spiking the story. People choose in our society to speak up or not based on all sorts of things such as intimidation from the adversary. Absent GOVERNMENT involved, it ain't censorship. Sleazy, maybe, but not censorship.
censorship...a deep subject. yes, we are lucky. and yet not sure if i agree; if OS decides not to post a blog, then it seems to me they are censoring it (whether or not they have free will to do it doesn't matter, does it?). it did get me to think, in fact i've come back at least twice. it also confuses me a bit, as well. and govt?....puleeeeze don't go there.
Journalists and newspaper owners were threatened with jail during WWI for reporting any story that might turn readers against the war. We as a society are not above that sort of thing. On the contrary, many Americans have a shoot-the-messenger mentality that leaves little doubt they'd just as soon not have a free press. Talk radio and the blogosphere were full of them after Abu Ghraib, screaming treason and calling for criminal prosecution of the New York Times.

Honestly, I am sadly lacking in American history and was surprised to learn about the degree of censorship during WWI. What I know now, I learned from reading "The Great Influenza." (It was called the Spanish Flu because a newspaper in Spain was the first one with the nerve to report an epidemic; our own government continued to officially deny the existence of a flu pandemic, even while the bodies piled up. Bad news involving overseas travel was deemed counterproductive to the war effort.)

Dictatorship-style censorship has happened here, my friend. No reason to think it can't happen again.
Hello: Well, I guess I am going to have a little more faith than that. IN WWII we rounded up Japanese Americans and sent them to internment camps, which has universally been decried. This time around there was no such call to run up all the "A-rabs". Hell, people were bellyaching about racial profiling.

So, no. It is still hugely hyperbolic to suggest that what goes on in other countries could likely happen here. No journalist is going to be jailed, shot, or killed for writing a story unfavorable to the administration.