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Salon.com
OCTOBER 20, 2010 11:47AM

First Amendment and Religious Shades of Gray

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A blog here prompted a comment that triggered this post around Church/State issues looming on the horizon.  It also recalls countless hours of debate on conservative forums around school vouchers as a concept, among other things, as well as some interest in Bush’s failed Faith Based Initiative.  (In that forum I was painted as a wishy washy moderate, or worse, a liberal.)

The referenced blog sites some pretty clear cut examples.  You cannot establish a religion.  No government sanctioned religion.  No “Church of England” that was the Episcopal Church at the time of the founding.  No forcing of the individual to pay fealty to a specific religion.

Got it.  No dispute.  Pretty clear cut with case precedent.  God removed from the Pledge of Allegiance.  No more Crèche scenes on public commons, etc, etc. ad nauseum.  No forced prayer in school, but if you want to pray on your own, then Mazel Tov!

Founders intent and past patterns are clear here.  Many fled other countries, and England in specific to avoid religious persecution.  Some settlers had to bolt from one colony to another, such as fleeing the Massachusetts Bay Colony for Rhode Island by Roger Williams, and William Penn separating from Delaware to form Pennsylvania, for example.  These were clear antecedent actions the founders were considering when establishing this.

Back then government taxed far less and spent far less.  To shorten that I will use the term redistribution, which has ugly connotations I do not want thrown at me in the comments section.  You want to type that from your itchy, partisan hands, come back here and read this, goddamnit.  I am using it as shorthand to discuss rather complex things with greater simplicity and economy of words which, as regular blog readers understand, is not a strong suit.

So centralized government did not redistribute wealth.  Local communities did that.  They did that, oftentimes, through church infrastructures as well as local orphanages and poor houses.  Good or bad, that was how it worked.

Today we have a very sophisticated system for wealth redistribution that has centralized that aspect at both the state and federal levels while also allowing for tax credits for sanctioned charities.  One such charity happens to be the church of your choice.

Now throw the notion of education vouchers and delivery of welfare services into the mix.

 

School Vouchers

This issue likely is not going to abate as we wrestle with how to retool the education of the citizenry as we continue toward the inevitable transition into a knowledge work economy.  The internet alters education delivery in ways hard to comprehend.  The traditional delivery of lecturer at a blackboard with students writing it down has roots in the Middle Ages.  At the end of the day you had your book.  You had your knowledge transfer at a time predating printing presses.

Not relevant in the electronic age.  MIT offers its course curriculum and lecture notes on line, for example.  Reportedly the largest downloader of this free content happens to be China.  Students and teachers collaborate over the networks to wrestle with homework.  Many class rooms have no text books now, using online content projected onto a screen for class lectures.

And the notion of school choice with some kind of government credit for those expenditures remains an issue.

And what does it mean about vouchers or credits for schools tied to a religious organization?   Government redistributes funds tied to church backed organizations without discrimination.  You choose without bias.

Allowing that does not establish a religion nor does it impede your right to exercise your right to choose the religion of your choice.  

Or would it?

A Jew in some Christian-centric red state might not be able to find a Jewish School to which to send their child.  But they would have no problem in New York City doing that, while a Mormon might.  Is critical mass of the citizenry by religion by geography really a fault or responsibility of government?

Is that unfair government influence in religion while still seeking to redistribute money for the collective good in a centralized fashioned unfathomable to founders when writing up the Establishment Clause?  The right to assemble is not impeded by the government offering funding equally to all established religions in the far larger role government has in wealth redistribution than envisioned at the time of the Founding.

Then becomes what the government defines as a recognized religion.  With any government transfer program will come those seeking to abuse the program to grab the money.  Scientology likely passes the smell test, though would be controversial.  But what becomes, then, of applications for recognition as a religion to qualify?  What if it is just some weird education approach the Department of Education rejects on those grounds, so the educators seek to use the religion loophole and point to establishment as the basis?  

You know, Ebonics as a recognized language to get ESL funds?  That kind of thing.

 

Faith Based Initiative

This took a lot of heat and never really got tested fairly.  Look at this from economic grounds seeking to improve efficiency of services delivery.

Churches have an existing infrastructure to deliver welfare services.  They have soup kitchens and sleeping services for the homeless.  They house many support functions such as AA within their halls with no religious litmus test for participation.

If we recognize we need to tighten our national belt, then seeking to leverage existing infrastructures delivering the intended services makes a ton of sense to INVESTIGATE.  Overlapping infrastructure means less net benefit to the recipient if tied up in redundant overhead structure.  A business operations/efficiency view, rather than a religious view.  And government, if nothing else, is in the business of delivering services to the citizenry.  And it needs to rethink business practices given economic reality.

No establishment of a religion.  No coercion of who gets to attend or receive the services.

And likely most readers here will be scanning this and rejecting it.

But that issue Bush sought to explore is going to be pressed hard whenever we get through the late stages of the healthcare bill.  Many hospitals have religious affiliation.  What will the impact of the Establishment clause be on government mandates around healthcare services?

Will a Catholic hospital be forced to perform abortions?  Dispense birth control?  This would seem to be a violation of the Establishment clause if forced to do so.  If the only hospital in town, then citizens ARE impacted, but if there are competing places for services, then it would seem the religious-affiliated healthcare providers should have the right to refuse to perform services the government wants to make sure get performed under these grounds.  For some abortion is a violation of their religious beliefs whether others of us want to accept it or not. 

Catholic Charities made noise around this very issue during the healthcare debate.  It is exactly the same kind of scenario as would have been useful to explore in a localized area under the Faith Based initiative.

Again, the issue here is religious affiliated infrastructure in the delivery of services into which government involvement has creeped since the Founding as we have increased central government’s role in welfare redistribution to care and tend to the citizenry.  The more we turn to government for these solutions, as we have done since the Founding, the more we bump up into the individual rights and liberties sought to be preserved in the 1780s by some pretty bright minds.  They were not, however, time travelers who could see the future two centuries out.

So it is all well and good to mock the cartoon character that is the Republican Senatorial candidate in Delaware, but there are some emerging issues that will but up against the First Amendment as it relates to religious organizations that were not at all anticipated by the founders. 

It is analogous to the difficulty around the 2nd amendment on guns and what was meant by “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State.”  Here again, government did less back then.  It relied on citizen infrastructure.  In this case gun owners.  In the topic at hand, religious charity. 

The more we turn to government, the more we but up against this conflict.

No strong position being offered one way or the other.  Just a cautionary tale of the realities of what we are facing working from a document that could not envision life in America in the 21st Century.

It is not as clear cut as folks would like to suggest to abe able to mock a weak candidate and an easy target.

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I think they went way to far about pushing religion out of things, although it is harder the more and more diverse religions you get, because you step on more toes potentially.
Interesting post, as pretty much always, although, I still like the French, even if they are difficult too, but interesting people often are. :)
Don: It was not as big of a deal back then when there was far less government role in wealth redistribution to tend to the needy within society. Sure, there's been benefit to social safety net protection as it has evolved and was essentially cemented under FDR, but now the pendulum creeps back a little bit as we realize we are demanding a lot and that the underlying economics of the programs just do not work economically. That infrastructure tied to religion will be evaluated, and it will mean a hard look at the Establishment clause. Not sure if that was on O'Donnell's mind or that she articulated it correctly or cogently, and I don't really care. This issue will be sucked into these policy proposals going forward. A legal marker has already been put in play by the Catholic church as it relates to their healthcare network.
Stellaa; Read the link, which is interesting. Right wing? Look, the point here is the shifts in the way in which we interact with government, its increased role in redistribution for services delivery. It's a delivery that bumps up against elements more historically served by church infrastructures. Parochial schools, homeless shelters, charitable hospital services. Well, those come into conflict with government roles more and more as we turn more and more there.

It cannot easily be suggested it was "envisioned" by government.

If we are to go with the interpretive nature of the constitution through SCOTUS rulings, then we can expect test cases to emerge, and I would be willing to bet the first such case on Healthcare will be around this, if not a states rights play.
What? Separation of church and state, What? In the Constitution? Must be a liberal lie!

By the way, re: "A well regulated Militia..." Has anybody ever thought, "bowels?" Seems as plausible as any other explanation--and reinforces the importance of regular grammatical constructions and the dangers of tortured syntax.
You are quite right that the lines are not easily drawn, but that is no excuse for not drawing them. O'D thot she was being clever and springing a trap by wording her question precisely but dubiously, but in doing so, she was only reinforcing the notion she is a fool. Arguing that those exact words are not in the Constitution is the cheapest of sophist tricks -- tho I doubt O'D has the slightest idea what a sophist is.

In general, she is like an ignorant child who interrupts grown-up conversations. Of course, she is not alone -- whether its the Constitution or Christianity, with their simplistic understanding of complicated matters, literalists always make a mockery of what they purport to defend.

Kunz was quite correct -- there really ought not be any discussion about the separation of church and state. That's clearly the intent of the First Amendment language, and that intent is confirmed in the Federalist Papers, and in Jefferson's letter to the Baptists. Based on their familiarity with and historical proximity to the savage religious wars of Europe, the Founders were adamant in their belief that conflation inevitably leads to conflagration.

To my mind, Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams and approved by Congress, ,ought to settle the matter. It states in part:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

As for the specifics of your post, I believe the Faith-Based Initiative was a dangerous step in the wrong direction. We can thank Karl Rove for one thing -- the FBI was merely a bone thrown to Evangelicals, and the Bush administration never had any intention of following thru on its promises in that regard.

Your point about Catholic hospitals is well-taken, but the conflict you describe is in fact another powerful argument for nationalized healthcare. So, I suppose as ever, be careful what you wish for -- and what you argue for.
Gwool, This was a good, straightforward presentation hinting at problems we're going to be wrestling with for awhile. America was a lot simpler in the Founding Fathers' day. States' rights meant something because it took you two days on horseback to get from New York to Virginia, while today we can fly there in an hour; therefore what happens in Virginia can now have a big effect on New York (i.e. a lot of the guns that come into NY were purchased in VA). And, unfortunately, the Internet has altered our concept of community, and now we often get more troubled by someone's plight 3000 miles away than we do with our neighbor's. I don't think we're going to be stepping back from a national safety net any time soon.

It's a delicate balance between public advocacy of a religion (creches on public property) and respecting a religion's rights even when it conflicts with public policy (not requiring church medical facilities to perform abortions). Unfortunately, there is a lot of inconsistency expressed by people on all sides. I haven't heard many atheists demanding that Christmas be removed from the school holiday schedules!
If I could add a little to your analysis, I'd like to point out that "in the beginning" of the Republic, and later at the genesis of the tax code, churches generally were much less monetized and less denominationally centralized, and more of the money did go toward "works." Since then our emphasis has changed to "programs," which often require "staff."

We all have our own opinions about whether that's good or bad, but it has changed the way people view churches (perhaps as opposed to other faith organizations created with a specific non-worship purpose in mind), and it has also changed the way people view that tax deduction.

An important point to note is that there are no longer (if there ever were) enough church members to do the work of caring for the poor.
High: You raise a very valid point there. In some ways, it can be argued that our turning more to government as the solution to the problem has given us the ability to abdicate the local responsibilities to "give back" at the local level. It is a little like AFDC spawned by DP Moynihan's memo of alarm about out of wedlock birth rates to JFK. It had a well intended effect to protect and provide for single mothers ostracized from nuclear families and left on their own, but it also contributed in some ways to the lessening of families rallying around to provide shelter and adult parental guidance to the kid having the kid. In this way, too, perhaps it has lessened church member involvements?
School vouchers are a way for rich people to get a deduction on their private school tuition for their kids, and to destroy public education in this country.

Faith based initiatives are based on the fact that many republicans hate government and promotes sectarianism as opposted to non-sectarianism when providing my tax dollars to a church where I am not a member. This is wealth redistribution.

She is a weak candidate and easy target. Her own words are killing her chance to be elected for the third time. Again.

Why does anyone have a picture of Christine from the waist down?
Nothing's ever as clear cut as those who oppose make it, I'll grant you that.

Here's the thing: I don't like anyone proselytizing and almost anything related to religion is gonna feel that way to me. I get that I live in a religious country and there's not much I can do about it except to keep insisting there is more than adequate breathing room for children who question and adults who don't conform (or the reverse). And, cynic that I am, I don't see enough evidence that religion does an adequate job of wealth redistribution, just as I don't see adequate evidence that private industry promotes social good. Trickle-down laisse faire never makes it all the way down to the bottom.

I'm always wishing government could do a better job of taking care of the weakest members of society, which (utopian idealist that I am) seems like a perfectly good job for a government to have. On the other hand, who likes having the government telling us what to do? So sure, I can understand people's distress with government involvement on some levels. And since everyone adores talking about the intent of the Founding Fathers and we seem to be in thrall to the notion of reading the minds of a number of prosperous white men who lived more than two centuries ago, I'm willing to move the task of providing for those less fortunate out of the government and over to the private sector, including churches...as soon as I see evidence that we're really going to do that instead of engaging in some modern version of social Darwinism and kick the unlucky ones to the curb--which means when pigs fly.

Yes I remain ever hopeful about the moral goodness of my fellow person, but thus far, even the most bloated, inefficient bureaucracies are evincing more heart and soul than many of the above-referenced fellow persons.

(My, I'm in a black mood today)
Oh, I was just saying that back then, everyone was pretty much a little churched. Now, not so much, and so much more variety, that you start having the government involved with those programs, people get all bent out of shape, even if, and I think it is, actually really consistent with what this country can and should be about.
OE: "School vouchers are a way for rich people to get a deduction on their private school tuition for their kids, and to destroy public education in this country."

Quite the contrary, OE. The rick already do it. Middle class families scraping money together to put their kids in day parochial schools would be the ones for which this would have appeal. The midway point on this has been charter or magnet schools very popular in and around inner cities not normally associated with the wealthy.
OE: "School vouchers are a way for rich people to get a deduction on their private school tuition for their kids, and to destroy public education in this country."

Quite the contrary, OE. The rick already do it. Middle class families scraping money together to put their kids in day parochial schools would be the ones for which this would have appeal. The midway point on this has been charter or magnet schools very popular in and around inner cities not normally associated with the wealthy.
Metaphysics has a beginning and end- which can't come soon enough.

The early Christians, who distinguished themselves with charity, faded out, not ironically, with their placement as the state religion, eventually causing all the issues this country was founded to avoid.

Is repeating this your suggestion?

Today bears no resemblance to the 1780s, but sure has a lot in common with the 1880s ... and what the led to- Hoovervilles. Tent cities of Americans who were, literally, homeless due to the FBI-only attempt of Hoover to provide services.

Since it failed so miserably then, why promote it now?

btw, "Ebonics as a recognized language to get ESL funds? That kind of thing."- what's your experience personally with low income black americans? Can you speak Ebonics? How many languages do you speak?

I'm asking a lot of questions as I have read some of your posts before and thought highly of them, but have never seen such an offensive piece of work as this from you.

Making them sit through the sermon to get the soup is the oldest trick in the Good Book, in fact in one way it is the Genesis of the faith. The government of any state should not involve itself in such a primitive partisan program.

IMUA
Oahu: I would be interested in more regarding Hoovervilles, which was at a time of unemployment far in excess of what we have now. What was the % of government spending as it relates to GDP being deployed then? What was the % of the government budget? Right now we borrow about 40% of total budget spending. Back then we balanced budgets. Not apples to apples within that context?

As to Ebonics in Oakland. The point was not on its merits. The point was the DOE rejected the claim for funds for that program under the English as a Second Language, or ESL provision. Hence the move to get Ebonics listed as its own language to be eligible for federal fundings.

The efficacy was not questioned. The maneuvering, valid or not, was offered as an example of what could happen to folks under a voucher system seeking to push the envelope on education eligibility then seeking to promote what they were doing as religion.

Your opinion is yours to frame, but do not read into comments and assign malevolent intentions, please.
Evenin' GWool

The funny thing about the O'Donnell blunder was Coons almost verbatim quoting the Establishment Clause, and O'D asking "that's in the Constitution?" Excuse me, but that makes her a jackass. She probably has, at best, a inadequate knowledge of even the flawed "conservative" argument that there is no separation, or that we were intended to be a Christian Nation. It was her itch to parrot a blurb from that flawed argument that compelled her to deny the obvious.

At least that freak show will be over in 2 weeks. After that, O'Donnell becomes a D list Sarah Palin. The one the local VFW calls for a July 4 picnic speaker because they can't afford Mama Tizzly.

The Founders could probably only imagine the boom-bust market cycles of especially the 2nd industrial revolution and the urban concentration of population. I doubt they foresaw using manipulating unemployment via interest rates to control inflation. If we are to purposely drive citizens to unemployment as a method of macro control, then it becomes requirement that we provide for the general welfare of the dispossessed.

The same theory applies to a country so foolish it redistributes wealth upwards, via purchased legislation and class corruption, and so increases the number of and burden on the middle and poor. If one doesn't like redistributing downward, perhaps one shouldn't be in the business of creating more poor. Because we are foolish, and because it is smart capitalism to not impoverish your consumers, we must now either figure out a way to mitigate this inequity or sink to an ever lowering living standard for the 95%ers.

Hospitals aren't churches, and we already spend Medicare, etc, funds with them. That many are church owned presents an easily resolved problem, and considerations on conscious can be written in. No biggie.

Churches have distributed USDA commodities since well before GW was inflicted upon America. It would be wise, though, to be wary of situations that smell like political/religious quid pro quo, and avoid them.

The word "respecting" in the 1st presents some ambiguity, as does "an establishment of religion." This was a result of some debate in Congress, but the basic thrust seems to be that it not only disallows a state religion, but also laws written in respect to the beliefs of a religion. If it were only meant to avoid a state religion, it could have simply read as "pass no law establishing a state religion."
"an establishment" seems to cover both a state religion, or a particular religion.

In that, it satisfies Enlightenment philosophy. Religious beliefs can't be forced; citizens can agree on law, but not religion; tolerance is essential to a peaceful society; we should be free to worship or not as we see fit.

What the Founders missed, and what we, the people must now address, is adding the 28th amendment. We can call it the O'Donnell IQ Amendment: You must be this tall to ride the roller coaster.

As far as partisanship goes, note that not once did I identify O'Donnell as a Republican. Even though she is a Republican, and is running as a Republican on the Republican ticket.

I wouldn't want to rub it in.
Not a dime of mine for god-talk. Not a dime.
PJ: Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful response, and, I laughed at the 28th Amendment recommendation to boot. I am a little curious on the quick toss off regarding the conscious thing to write into Healthcare. I am thinking, frankly, of this more closely to education. With No Child Left Behind, Sped services and mandates, etc, there already is this mingling taking place.

And thanks for not going whole hog on the hard right crap. This is merely recollection of discussions from years gone by on a forum far away ... and well to the right ... when I was the liberal. Who'da thunk it?
Yes Gwool, it is hard to believe that you were indeed the Liberal at one time. I'm old enough to remember.
Dr. Lee, I'm with you; "not one dime."
PJ - "Mama Tizzly." Sweet.
Also, addressing the 28th amendment, there's a very funny cartoon by Dan Collins that shows the founding fathers mulling around, getting ready to sign the Constitution and one of them says, "I keep thinking we should include something in the Constitution in case the people elect a fucking moron."
Birdog
If you were writing textbooks, people would actually read them. R
You should run for the Senate in Delaware. Christine does not raise these issues at all. She is clueless about being ignorant about not doing the homework about useful, rational, true things.

But you raise them; well-written, well-organized, reasonable, all of it.

The folks who are assaulting the church/state divide are all irrational Believers. Goverment is not the enemy, unless it fails to establish rules of engagement. Any Believer who wants to create a program the meets a need, does a service, and embodies their faith's principles, must simply meet the criteria being effective and do so in with no religious doctrine or requirements as part of their method. This should be easy for beliefs that claim superior moral or more loving worldviews, and in fact we have seen such successes. But with "modern" faith-based initiatives we see the lines blurred or even obliterated, and national jokes like abstinence programs still get tens of millions in funding. A waste of tax-payers money, (hey, tea partiers!), thoroughly debunked as ineffective, so I guess the tax revolt is not what it claims to be.

Good post.