Heather Michon

Heather Michon
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DECEMBER 3, 2009 11:13AM

Afghanistan: What's the Best Bad Choice?

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Two days after unveiling his new plans for Afghanistan at West Point, positive reactions to President Obama's speech are hard to find -- even among some of his most reliable supporters. Even our own Joan Walsh, over at Big Salon, was seriously unenthused.

One thing she wrote, though, really caught my eye.

"Still, I'd be remiss if I didn't stress, once again, that the president faced only bad choices in making this decision, thanks to the incompetence of the Bush-Cheney administration."

I don't make it a habit to disagree with Joan, and I sure as hell don't make it a habit to defend that execrable administration, but I have to say: I don't think it's that simple. Even if Bush-Cheney and their commanders had competently executed the war, even if we had never fought in Iraq, Barack Obama would be facing pretty much the same situation in Afghanistan today.

That is the problem with Afghanistan -- it never presents good choices.

If you accepts at your starting point, as President Obama and his predecessor do, that it was right and proper for us to target both al Qaeda the Taliban and in the fall of 2001, then we were screwed from the start.

This is not to say that the Taliban were misunderstood poet-warriors who deserved only to live in peace. Obama alliteration of "a ruthless, repressive and radical movement" was right on the money.

But, as we saw with the toppling of Saddam Hussein, removing a repressive ruling power does not mean an entire country is suddenly going to start rowing the ship of state in the same direction. That is especially true in Afghanistan, where there is no widespread sense of nationalism to act as a catalyst for the development of democracy. For Afghans, primary affiliations are tribal and ethnic.

Broadly speaking, there are at least four different types wars going on in the country right now: war between international security forces and insurgents, civil war between various factions and and the central government, small-scale tribal wars in the more remote regions, and narco-wars between drug traffickers for control of lucrative poppy fields. Depending on who you believe, we might also add proxy war, with rumors of India providing funds to the Taliban to destabilize Pakistan.

In short: it is a swirl of agendas and ideologies, awash in dirty money and dirty weapons, and riddled with corruption.  It is a failed state.

President Obama's argument is that, had we not gone into Iraq, we would have put more into Afganistan, and the situation would now be dramatic better. It's entirely likely that I missed it, but I've never heard him explain how he has come to that conclusion.

Even in 2001-2002, even before Iraq, there was never the public or political or miltary will, in the US or in Nato, to send a huge force into the region, or to keep them there for years.

Our initial foray was based primarily on the need to lash out at the enemy and, in this case, its patrons, in the aftermath of a frightening assault. But once we regained our senses, we were left with some serious problems.

Controlling Afghanistan gives the West no great strategic advantage in return for that huge investment of men and materiel. Unless you count heroin, it has no natural resources. While many of us are moved by the plight of Afghans, especially its women, it's hard to instill lasting social or political change at the point of a gun.   

The counter-insurgency theory favored by the U.S. military these days, known as COIN, says and ideal ratio of troops to inhabitants is 50:1. That would mean a "troop density" for Afghanistan of 560,000. The number most military and diplomatic types come up with is 400,000. About 400,000 well-armed troops would be able to hold the country.

Not pacify it. Not make it dramatically better. Just hold it, maybe long enough to win a few more hearts and minds, maybe funnel a little more aid into the places that need it.

(Its the same number of troop that the Soviets believed they would have needed to hold the country in the 1980s. Their force never exceeded 120,000 at any one time, fighting against 140,000 Mujahideen, and after a decade they withdrew in defeat -- after sustaining 48,700 casualties, including 13,300 dead and leaving 10,700 permanently disabled. Estimates of Afghan deaths range from 700,000 to 2 million.)    

Howard Hart was CIA station chief in Pakistan during much of the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan. In a recent talk at the University of Virginia, he estimated that this force of 400,000 plus an aid package "of monsterous size" might, over the course of a decade, result in a "small democratic country kind of making its way into the 13th Century."

If we stay, he says, we have to understand that "they will never stop fighting us. They never stopped fighing the Soviets. They never stop fighting each other."

A question I wish the President had considered more fully, or at least publicly, before announcing his new war strategy is: can we sleep at night without a free and democratic Afghanistan? If we left today, are the consequences really all that serious? Al Qaeda has moved on. There is a line of thought that says allowing the Taliban back into Afghanistan would stabilize Pakistan. Fewer coalition forces would mean fewer military and civilian casualties.

I tend to believe the answer is yes, we could sleep safe and sound. Leaving right now would be the best bad choice we could make.

 

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Heather, I was as uneasy with Joan's statement as you were, and I came to a similar conclusion -- though my thinking was nowhere near as neat as yours is here. ;)
Provocative and fascinating post, Heather. I take some comfort in the assurance that those making the decisions have access to greater intelligence information than I do, whether I'd reach the same conclusions with that information or not. The NYT, WSJ and WaPo all ponied up behind the President yesterday morning, even though there were those who didn't, or reached an uneasy peace with it. Of the responses I read, Gary Wills' from the New York Review of Books was the most stinging.

I have a vested interest in what happens in Afghanistan, since my oldest grandson is returning there in the next two weeks. Still, I can't agree that an immediate pullout is the best of all bad choices we can make.
@AshKW - thank you!

@Kathy - You are correct to call me on that -- there's a lot that we do not knnow. I really hope I'm totally off the mark and I hope your grandson stays very safe. Just found out yesterday that a young Marine I've known since he was a toddler, and who just returned from his second tour in Iraq, is probably going to be deployed again in the spring, most likely to Afghanistan.
Yes, I disagree with Joan, she being one of the last voices using the tired: it's Bush/Cheney's fault. Every incoming President faces big issues when he comes in, but Obama's people insist he is the only President ever to face issues inherited from his predecessor. Yawn.

One consequence of this policy is that my son will not be joining the Airforce. And I pray they do not institute a draft. But I weep for the women and children of Afghanistan who live horrific lives and they will become more so when/if we withdraw. There is not a woman or child there who doesn't cry for freedom from the Taliban and the day to day oppression they live under.
Take Pakistan's nuclear weapons on the way out of a devastating foray into Waziristan that no one will ever forget and declare victory.
"They make a waste, and call it peace." That is what I would do.
Even if we want a peaceful democratic Afghanistan, the only option is to leave. As Malalai Joya, Afghan Parliamentarian, and (separately) the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan have repeatedly said, the foreign occupation only leads to a strengthening of the oppressive fundamentalist forces there. Not only is the US killing thousands of civilians through air-strikes and drones, but the social conditions for women as a whole (not just a few elites in Kabul) has gotten WAY worse. They say, as progressive women, better to only fight one enemy rather than two.

So we should have no compunction about what is just in this situation. End the occupation now.
Somewhat incongruously, I'm off to buy some Christmas decorations, but I wanted to post the like to David Sirota's latest post

http://open.salon.com/blog/david_sirota/2009/12/01/some_simple_questions_after_obamas_afghanistan_war_speech

Thought-provoking.
the link to David's post. I can't seem to type well today.
How come in all these arguments no one asks if we can even afford to wage these endless wars, in both financial and moral terms? We take it as a given we can just bleed forever! Sheer idiocy!

It's also taken as a given the only solution is a military one, which is a complete fantasy. Of course, these things have to be left out of the debate - bothersome reality - so it can be reduced down to a simple 'war' or 'no war' scenario. And people on the whole always choose war. (That's why you see nothing more than token resistance to all this insanity.)

As always, the politicians know us better than we know ourselves. The policies won't change because no one really wants that. It's always easier (and cowardly) to believe war makes us safe. Until, of course, we come to die from it.
The conflict in Afghanistan is a war without easy answers or resolutions...Unlike World War 2, there are no clear cut enemies..No grand armies of tanks and soldiers...It is an extemely unconventional war. Various factors have given the enemies of the United States a clear cut advantage.

First, the terrain allows the taliban to hide in the mountains. This ability to hide gives the Taliban the opportunity to move in and out of the villages and towns before the forces of the willing can respond. This flexibility circumvents sattelittes, airplanes, and other technological military advances...

Second, tribalism deters any reconstruction efforts to the state or the government...Throughout Afghanistan, the different municipalities are controlled by warlords...These warlords only answer to themselve...No central government...In addition, the control the flow of drugs and rule the towns with an iron fist...Thus, any clear cut solution to this tribalism reminds unclear....

Third, the domestic pressures being placed on the United States are challenging the ability of the Obama government to fight this war. High unemployment, and an weakened economy cause American to be more concerned about their own sense of well-being . As a result, the public desire to fight this war has been significantly challenged and weakened.
I think the fundamental problem is that the Afghan government is corrupt and lacks popular support, and its ineffective army does not control most of the country. It is remarkably similar to the situation we faced in Vietnam. As Robert McNamara said in his autobiography, everyone pretty much knew that the unpopular Vietnamese government would undermine all of our efforts there, but the war took on a life of its own.

As with the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese, the Taliban don't have to win the war. They don't even have to win a battle. All they have to do is stay, and they will be there long after we have gone.

Now we're engaged in the Afghan version of "Vietnamization" -- trying to bring the Afghan army to a point at which they alone can defend and control the country. It won't work, but it will eventually give us a pretext for leaving, and Obama will be able to claim that he didn't "cut and run."

I think at this point any U.S. service member who dies in Afghanistan will have died more in the name of public relations than for any real chance of success there.
I'm with you. the best bad choice is to leave.
Problem is that there have been IASF troops in there suffering serious casualties for years now with the expectation that there would be this surge that the U.S. has been promising. Afghanistan may not be the front and center of your news every night, but with troops killed almost every week for the last three years, it is in Canada. Were the U.S. to pull out of that promise now, I imagine there would be a lot of bitterness from the many other countries who've been committing troops during the years that the U.S. has been draining its resources in Iraq.

Our troops are exhausted and demoralized by the near decade we've spent there. But I'm not sure they are as cynical about the progress that has been made as you are. A lot can change in a country with average life span of 43. If some crack could be opened long enough to allow a reasonable level of education for women and children for let's say a decade, the country would still have its challenges, but it might not be as vulnerable to the same level of fanaticism and totalitarianism that the Taliban represent. I'm surprised to hear myself say this, but if the surge creates that crack, I'll sleep better at night.
Very interesting and candid argument. As someone who is headed there in 2 months, I would argue that leaving now isn't the best bad choice, but I also am biased to some extent. (5 1/2 years in teh military will do that). That being said, your article has given me a lot to consider. I posted a piece about the Afghanistan surge here too, with a different focus entirely.
http://open.salon.com/blog/resdog502/2009/12/02/surge_in_afghanistan_obamas_not-so-risky_decision
Obama announced that we are leaving in 2011.

Obama gave the generals troops. But he also put them on notice that this is their war and they have to do it quickly with what they asked for.

In matters of war, invert everything. Or at least consider it. Sending more troops means we are leaving.

Once you look at it that way, its a done deal, we are gone and that is that.
Great post. It's such a difficult issue. There seems to be no good answer for what to do.
Juliet writes: "I'm surprised to hear myself say this, but if the surge creates that crack, I'll sleep better at night."

What exactly is the so-called surge supposed to do? How, in your view, does this play out in a positive way long-term?

I am reminded of a cartoon I saw some yeas ago. It showed a group of scientists standing in front of a blackboard filled with a complex equation. At the end of the equation is written " . . . And then something happens."

That's how the Afghan strategy appears to me. We surge . . and then something happens. A corrupt and unpopular government somehow becomes upright and popular. An inept Afghan army somehow becomes effective. How does a temporary surge accomplish this, especially when such changes can take years to accomplish? And how do these changes remain after we are gone?

Nick writes: "Obama announced that we are leaving in 2011."

Ok, so it takes months in order to get the troops in place, and then shortly after that we start pulling them out.

Sorry, but this whole strategy just seems incoherent to me.
"Nick writes: "Obama announced that we are leaving in 2011."

Ok, so it takes months in order to get the troops in place, and then shortly after that we start pulling them out.

Sorry, but this whole strategy just seems incoherent to me."

Just think Orwell. The Big Lie.

How do you actually leave? By announcing that you are staying. And buying off the generals by giving them a couple of years to paper over whatever can be papered over.
The best bad choice is for Obama and his advisors to decide.

For us...for the people to whom you are addressing the question...our best choice is to allow the process to take its course. We elected Obama to make these hard decisions...and we ought to allow him to make them.

If we think at the end of his term that his decisions have not been up to snuff...we can him

Seems pretty clear cut to me.
he basically made the choice it is better to fight the war there than here. it is the safe bet if he wants to be re-elected. can you imagine what the response would be if he pulled out and they figured out how to bomb something here? you think maybe the generals didn't hit this one hard?

yeah, it's a political decision. thank god. if he listened to all the disillusioned ideologues who voted for him thinking he was going to end the war everybody but them would be screaming bloody murder...

p.s. forget about this "free and democratic" afghanistan. it isn't going to happen. the goal is to keep them occupied over there and wipe out as many of them as possible so they are less of a threat internationally. also, imagine if Bin Laden is still alive and that is found out after a pullout?

i'm not sure the discussion has even gotten serious yet, but from today's headlines it sounds like the congress, who would be in a similar position in the case of a pullout, agrees. This "core" constituency of obama's may not be what faux liberals are declaring it is.
once you understand motivation, strange things become clear. this speech is growing on me, as a demonstration of political manipulation. "begin to leave in 2011" in particular is very good. it can mean anything king obama wants, and quietens the 'go now' crowd while giving the generals and the munitions investors what they want too. something for everyone, and plenty of slack for contingencies. the empire is in good hands, today.

but harry g points to the question that really matters. armies run on money, and the american empire is so far in the red that it couldn't re-occupy west los angeles, if it had to pay cash.
As to Obama's decision, all I can say is -- chalk one up to Washington Consensus. Thanks to the representative form of government and the jillions of lobbyists, the spectrum of political opinion gets horribly narrowed in DC. Think of going through life looking through a slot. The "responsible" people on the left and the "responsible" people on the right are about one centimeter apart from each other. Political differences on foreign policy are almost non-existent. And people like Obama are afraid of what F*x News and the Washington Times have to say, so guess what? The only options available were General Westmoreland or Bush Light.

One can hope there's some domestic backlash that really gets us the hell out of Afghanistan before 2012. The rumor of the day is that General Petraeus is thinking of running as a GOP candidate in 2012. Be very afraid.
Toppling Saddam--and killing a million Iraqis in the process--was a huge mistake, the consequences of which only God knows.

Yet, you are right again; this time you are right about the solution. We should help Pakistan with all our might to rid of the Taliban. Yet, we should leave Iraq and Afghanistan/bananstan immediately and never go back. Now I have a question for you:

Why do most Americans still believe that Obama--or any other President-- has any say in any major issue like war or healthcare?

Rated for good argument.
Mishima, I don't know if you actually read what I wrote, so I'm not sure there's a point in repeating it.

But first, the troops won't just be arriving in Kandahar. The U.S. has had troops there since 2001. So the plan is to increase them for a year to deal with the increase in violence that has been building since 2006. But the military hasn't just been there for bombing purposes. Troops have been helping in all kinds of ways, with medical care, building of schools and training police. It's no utopia for sure, but this isn't Iraq. Returning Canadian troops seem to feel that they've a difference there. Maybe a small one, but an important one. And while atrocities have been committed, I'm not sure that Afghanees in general see this as an occupation. They're far too desperate for help.
I agree, let's leave now before the Pashtuns start fighting us. What a waste.
Why aren't we talking about the Afghanistan people in this equation? Since the U.S. invasion, life has become a living nightmare for the people in that region, bombings of wedding parties (by the U.S.), rounding people up and torturing them in Bagram prison. The Afghanistan people don't WANT US THERE! What about their right to self-determination? The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to about bringing freedom and democracy to the people living there and have everything with the U.S. becoming an unchallengable global superpower. U.S. intervention in Afghanistan was being advocated long before 9/11 by Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz. There goals were to secure key shipment route in order to freely access the pipeline to the western market along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border and to dominate The richest country in the world is destroying the poorest country in the world! How can you sleep at night going along with that ?
Juliet writes: "So the plan is to increase them for a year to deal with the increase in violence that has been building since 2006."

That's certainly a legitimate tactical goal. My concern is with the strategic factors that need to be in place for the long-term survival of a non-Taliban government. Among these factors are having a government that has the general support of the people, building a sense of national identity, reduction of governmental corruption, reduction of police corruption, building a competent Afghan army, and so on. There are many more things that need to be done, but I think these are at least the minimum. These factors are the "infrastructure," so to speak, upon which tactical successes can build. But without the strategic infrastructure, tactical successes simply don't mean that much.

One of the lessons of Vietnam is that you can win every battle and still lose the war, especially when winning the war involves many non-military objectives.

Nonetheless, I hope that you are right and I am wrong. But were I a gambler, I wouldn't put my money on the long-term survival of a non-Taliban government after we're gone. I believe Obama is a good man with good intentions. But you know what road is paved with good intentions.
Well if those things were in place we wouldn't need the NATO operation that's been going on for the last four years. But while the reaction in the U.S. hasn't been negative, the rest of the world has responded quite positively with a mutual promise to increase troops.

Everyone here seems to act as though the U.S. is alone in this venture, and is suddenly making a unilateral decision to send troops. This is not Viet Nam. This is an ongoing International alliance. I'm not saying it's going to work. But as Obama knows withdrawing from Afghanistan this year would be a diplomatic disaster. And if he doesn't send in troops now he's endangering the troops that are currently losing to the Taliban. He can't say that in a speech, but people do need to be able to read between the lines.
Sorry, I meant while the reaction in the U.S. HAS been negative.
Here's to our new boogeyman!!!! Afghanistan...keeping the American people docile and in fear until it's Iran's turn. US History is downright scary sometimes.
Heather,

The thing that is not receiving enough attention is the issue of who exactly is fighting this war for America. We do not have a draft, nor are we being asked to finance this war by making concessions on the home front. In other words, there exists no real ownership of this war by the people of this country. Lots of apathy about the war, but little ownership.

During Vietnam, when there was a draft, there were lots of well educated and financially well off people involved in protesting the war. That’s because it was their children and us who were being drafted, and killed, and so people got involved. For awhile we had “student deferments” until we ran out of fresh troops to send to the slaughter and so we had a draft lottery. I participated in the first lottery and September 17 drew draft #255. I remember it well. We all had some skin in the game then, and it was everyone’s issue.

Today, our army is made up of “volunteers.” I am a former high school principal and still work in the public schools. The kids signing up for the army are simply those who have run out of options, for the most part. I could tell you lots of things recruiters do and promise to meet their monthly quotas and people would be surprised. Our troop quality has some serious issues, but that’s for another day.

If we had a draft again, believe me the pressure to leave Afghanistan would increase exponentially. This is a sanitized war for most Americans, and with the world economy in the toilet, most of us have other day-to-day worries. The notion that our political leaders know more than we do and we should trust them is just unbelievably naïve. Been there, done that, doesn’t work.

Let’s bring back a draft, beef up the military, and then bomb the hell out of Afghanistan for a couple of years to save. Then we withdraw, and in 20 years we’ll be trading parties.

You know, Osama bin Laden is a disaffected millionaire heir to a Saudi fortune. How come nobody is upset with the Saudis? Oh yeah, the oil thing and their chumminess with the Texans (e.g., Robert Gates, Bushes, etc.). Obama has a 26 year veteran CIA spook advising him and the CIA has been in Afghanistan for 17 years, and we’ve switched sides twice over there, and you say our choices are all bad? They’re all the same. We continue to be duped by those with an interest in continuing the war.

Thanks for your post.
Damn, and no one mentions the bases and pipelines.....I just drove home with a friend that asked if I thought we'd be safer (as a nation) if we prevailed in Afghanistan - I'm surprised I kept the car on the road - I had to keep from yelling that we are safest TODAY than we will ever be; each passing day occupied people hate us even more. Best bad choice IS to STOP. Just STOP the WARS.

www.worldcantwait.net
I get a kick out of your attempt at dismissing the effort in Afghanistan and trivializing the U.S. reasons for being there. The OS’ers love you too.

Your premise "Our initial foray was based primarily on the need to lash out at the enemy and, in this case, its patrons"

I don't think this is how the military would have defined their mission. They weren't or aren't "lashing out" at anyone.

Your twisted need to read "revenge" into the Bush/Cheney's motives further reduces your credibility.

The reason for being there is that both Bush and Obama recognize the need to dismantle and render completely ineffective the Taliban and Al Qaeda factions is Afghanistan and Pakistan.

You concluded your post with this somber delusion: “A question I wish the President had considered more fully, or at least publicly, before announcing his new war strategy is: can we sleep at night without a free and democratic Afghanistan? If we left today, are the consequences really all that serious? Al Qaeda has moved on. There is a line of thought that says allowing the Taliban back into Afghanistan would stabilize Pakistan. Fewer coalition forces would mean fewer military and civilian casualties.

I tend to believe the answer is yes, we could sleep safe and sound. Leaving right now would be the best bad choice we could make.”

What you ‘tend to believe” may not be correct. There comes a time when you have to decide that when, the previous president you hated, and the president you voted into office with a fervor of passion not seen in recent history, agree that the Taliban and Al Qaeda DO pose a threat, and the support for our mission demands more troops, we have to decide to support them or not. You choose not.

Your simplistic approach is where you err. The instability that those extreme factions pose to the whole region, and the threat to India (because of our financial dependence to them now because of manufacturing & tech support) especially with a nuclear Pakistan are solid reasons to stay the course and finish the original mission (correctly defined by Bush).

Our commitment there is to do this so we can guarantee the forward progress necessary to bring that country to a place where Pakistan can stabilize and the region can move forward in peace.

If your initial premise was correct, then your “wish” would be valid. Since you don’t have a realistic grasp of what your leaders mission is, you may as well keep wishing. Did you send your list to Santa Clause?

And to think that OS thinks this a worthy front page post.
Thank you, @Philos777. The point of my post is not just to share my personal views, but to stimulate discussion and debate. You're correct, what I tend to believe may not be right.

No, I don't believe in Santa, or elves, or fairies, or things that go bump in the night.

I did not vote for President Obama.

And I recently learned that George Bush is a very, very, very distant cousin of mine (although I won't be waiting on that invite to Christmas in Kennebunkport.)

Cousin George didn't have a lot of good options in September 2001. As described in Bob Woodward's "Bush At War," there was an internal debate within the Administration in the weeks following 9/11 in regards to the Taliban: whether to hit them, how hard, and what might happen in Afghanistan in a post-Taliban era. They just as easily could have hit JUST AT al Qaeda with long-range bombers and limited deployments of Special Forces. They chose instead to go with full-fledge invasion as part of the emerging "your with us or your with the terrorists" policy.

I misspoke. I don't know if George Bush wanted "revenge" via invasion of Afghanistan. I know it was in the minds of the American people, who supported invasion by 80-90% in the fall of 2001. We were angry, and scared, and in the mood to support actions that turned out to have long-lasting consequences. I don't think we should be faulted for that. We're human.

And I don't discount the bravery or the thoughtfulness of our troops.

I recently heard someone call it our "success that failed." Within a matter of weeks, we had operationally destroyed al Qaeda in Afghanistan and toppled the Taliban. We won the initial war, but we're likely to lose the peace. How do we lose the peace gracefully?

I came to MY conclusion by asking myself these questions:

1) What is the likelihood al Qaeda will return to Afghanistan after a coalition withdrawl? [Unlikely. They've always had a fairly decentralized structure, and there are plenty of other failed states where they can train.]

2) Does it really matter if we capture or kill Osama Bin Laden? [He's always been more of a figurehead than an operational leader. Dead or alive, he's going to draw adherents. If he is in South Waziristan, over the border in Pakistan, it would be damn near impossible to go get him without getting a lot of good US soldiers dead.]

3) Would a coalition withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the likely restoration (after a fight with the current government) of the Taliban to power be a good or bad thing for Pakistan? [Probably good. It would remove the Taliban from Pakistan, where they are currently kicking up havoc, and potentially help Pakistan exert more control over the Af-Pak border.]

4) Is it moral for us to leave those Afghans who desire freedom and prosperty in the lurch? [No. But we also can't force freedom and democracy down the throats of 28 million people at the point of a gun. The creation of a lasting, stable, democratic Afghanistan ultimately has to come from the will of the people to seize that for themselves. That process could take generations. It might never happen at all. It isn't likely to happen in the next 18 months.]

You questions and answers are probably different.

P.S: I don't mind gratituous shots to my intelligence, but I'm sick of the whole front page argument. If you -- or anyone else -- has a problem with what OS puts on the front page, take it up with the editors...with whom I have no contact and whose editorial choices often escape even me.
Ms. Michon,

Of course, nowhere in your post (or your latest reply to this thread) is there any mention of the enormous financial burden this foriegn policy imposes on the American people.

Is this how you operate in personal matters? If you have a problem, you will just borrow money to fix it, with no thought of the consequences?

Most of you are arguing about the strategic pros and cons of this foreign policy. Whatabout the enormous cost of devaluing our currency, increasing our debt, and wiping out our middle class?
Philos777,

I agree with you there is some threat posed by the Taliban and Al-Queda.

My question for you: are you willing to eliminate this threat at ANY cost? Or, is there a cost that would be too great?

We are printing off billions of dollars in new currency to pay for this foreign policy. We have restricted the individual liberties of our people with the Patriot Act. We have tortured enemy combatants and murdered innocent civilians to "stabilize the region".

Aren't these costs too much to bear (particularly in light of our economic woes)? Please keep in mind September 11th was NOT caused by a lack of war...we had adequate defenses but chose not to act on them.

What do you think?

-David
The solution is simple.

I don't know the entire history of Afghanistan, but since the beginning of the cold war the place has been filled with terrorism, imperialism, and very bad people. Part of that is our fault, part of that is Russia's part, part of that may be the fault of the afghani culture.

So, since this country is filled with very bad people, and since it has been for some time, and since it is an incubator for terrorist groups, and since no good things are coming out of it, let's just say that it's not buying its way into statehood. The UN should revoke it's license to be a country due to the fact that it has failed to be productive in the global economy.

After this, since the problem with afghanistan is all those pesky mountains and caves, we should strip mine the entire country until it is as flat as the corn fields of Iowa. The money from any ores and minerals that are harvested should be used to fund peacekeeping efforts in that country, and if the resources are worth more than that they should be used to fund peacekeeping efforts in other parts of the world.

Then, once we're done, and it's flat as can be, I suspect it will be nowhere near as useful at hiding terrorists and very bad people.
Philos777 writes: "Our commitment there is to do this so we can guarantee the forward progress necessary to bring that country to a place where Pakistan can stabilize and the region can move forward in peace."

What is the likelihood of that happening? When you say that we have to "bring that country to a place . . . " how exactly does that happen? How do people who barely have a sense of national identity develop one? How does a corrupt government become upright? How does an unpopular government before popular? How does an inept Afghan military become competent? I honestly don't see how all of that is supposed to happen. I don't recall any historical parallels where it did happen. And I don't see how it will continue to happen after we're gone.

Philos777: "And to think that OS thinks this a worthy front page post."

I myself have often complained about the cover. But this is exactly the kind of post that should be a candidate for the cover. The author is making her own arguments and doing her own analysis. She supports her opinion with facts. She's not doing some copy-and-paste of someone else's piece. She's not claiming to be an expert, but instead is offering an opinion in order to promote discussion. Whether she's right or wrong is not the point. The piece is doing what it was intended to do: provide a venue for discussion.
Mishima666, I thought I made it clear that to “bring that country to a place” would be to remove the influence of the extremists.

What Americans are really ignorant about is how powerful the threat of economic instability is to frame policy. The world economic system is way more fragile than we think. If instability in Afghanistan and the cultivation of Al Qaeda & Taliban insurgents has the power to negatively affect the global financial community, then whatever it takes to stabilize that threat is going to happen.

You ask “How do people who barely have a sense of national identity develop one? How does a corrupt government become upright? How does an unpopular government before popular? How does an inept Afghan military become competent?”

All really good questions, but none really affect the mission at hand. Russia, China, N. Korea and the U.S. for that matter have corrupt govts and we are peaceful and don’t pose a threat to the rest of the world or the worlds economy. That is the bench mark for military conflict in modern times.

If you harbor or support ant type of terrorism that might threaten the global marketplace….look out. Afghan does have the potential to harbor, train, cultivate and finance terrorists. The extremists are part of the reason for instability in Pakistan.

Pakistan borders India. There is already a nuclear driven instability between Pakistan and India. The extremists in Pakistan want the instability. It is in our best interests to support the destruction of Al Qaeda and the Taliban wherever they exist.

The corrupt government is their problem. A national identity is their problem. We can help with the military competence for a while.

Mishima666, c’mon man. I post well written, fact supported, analytical opinion pieces all the time. This piece fits the ideological profile of the OS’er to a T. It bashes Bush/Cheney and questions Obama in Afghanistan. Whether rightly or wrongly, OS loves that. It’s pure progressive ideology. That is why it’s front page. I think it was lacking in facts and she even says I am right that she assumed some things and may have some wrong beliefs about why we are there. Peace
@ Philo: you are a bully aren't you? Let's take you down.

Philo says:

"Your twisted need to read "revenge" into the Bush/Cheney's motives further reduces your credibility."

[This, Philo, is ad hominem; it is not an argument. Ad hominem begets ad hominem--next time I am not going to be that nice.You already psychoanalyzed the author and insulted her. Anyone who supports Bush/Cheney is an idiot, Philo. And Philo, you can only reduce the credibility of your equals. The author of this post comes from a higher species than yours.

That one of the motives of the war was revenge is a fact, Philo. They kill one one of us, we kill a hundred of them. Isn't that what they say where your tribe, Philo.]

"I post well written, fact supported, analytical opinion pieces all the time."

[No you don't, Philo. You copy and paste right wing slogans, before or after you vomit demons in paper bags.]

"I don't think this is how the military would have defined their mission. They weren't or aren't "lashing out" at anyone."

[This, Philo, is what we call chicken shit/coward argument. You are hiding behind your rock invoking our military and fake patriotism to scare people. Well, Philo, our brave men and women of the military--the best trained armed forces in the world--did what they were ordered to do: bomb and kill the enemy civilians, kick in doors, and torture prisoners. These were the orders, Philo.]

"The reason for being there is that both Bush and Obama recognize the need to dismantle and render completely ineffective the Taliban and Al Qaeda factions is Afghanistan and Pakistan."

[Bush, Obama and you don't know why we are there. Only the big money--people you haven't heard of--knows, Philo. You, know shit, Philo.]

"You concluded your post with this somber delusion..."

[Again, Philo, this is ad hominem. Unfortunately, Philo, even as a fifth grader you did not know that "somber delusion" is a contradiction in terms; a delusion, Philo, cannot be somber. Tweet that.

"Your simplistic approach is where you err."

[That is the third direct personal insult, Philo. But you get a point for copying words like "simplistic" and "err." I am so proud of our elementary education system.]

"...finish the original mission (correctly defined by Bush)."

[You are implying that Bush can finish something and is correct, Philo. This is tragic, Philo.]

"If your initial premise was correct, then your “wish” would be valid. Since you don’t have a realistic grasp of what your leaders mission is, you may as well keep wishing. Did you send your list to Santa Clause?"

[Now, this is flat out vulgar, Philo. What is the "realistic grasp", Philo? You don't know shit do you. You see, Philo, these right wing fliers are meant to be copied and pasted as a whole. You can't divide them yourself and then ad T-shirt graphics to them, Philo.]

I read some of your posts, Philo, not one original thought. You don't even have an opinion, Philo. If you don't agree with an argument, Philo, you make a counter-argument. you NEVER insult the person of the author, because this is unprofessional and rude, Philo.

On OS we respect each other; we disagree but never call each other names, Philo. Don't copy and paste, Philo. Find an original thought and write it in your OWN words. I promise you, no one on OS will laugh at you, Philo. Peace, Philo.
After 9/11, world opinion was overwhelmingly in our favor. We had been victimized. Had we taken the opportunity then to use that goodwill to position ourselves as supporters of everyone's right to live as they please, we'd be in a totally different world today. When will we ever learn that societal evolution can't be legislated or imposed by force?

People and societies move at their own speed. If America had set an example of enlightened support of the good: if we had offered food, training, education, and the hand of peace in response to the violence we had been offered - if we had actually followed the teachings of the Christ Bush purported to have found when born again and had turned to other cheek and continued to move toward the light, we'd be perceived quite differenly today. Instead, w continue to lumber through foreign policy as though it were a zero sum game - if you lose, we win. Very old school, very ineffective.

Just as I believe the Christian right should have the freedom to live in servitude to an outmoded religion of guilt and fear, so too the Taliban should be able to promote sharia and burquas. It is up to the people affected locally to refute that rule when it doesn't serve their needs.. I don't want outside forces (U.N. or other) coming into America making it safe for me to live without oppression by Jerry Falwell. If most of the people in America believe Jerry is right or don't care to refute him, that effort wouold be doomed to create only ill will from both Jerry's followers and his detractors. I would not have wanted France to come save America from George Bush despite my disapproval of his government.

"War, good God, y'all! What is it good for? Absolutely nothin'!"
I think part of the strategy is to stay close to what is going on in Pakistan. I could have gone along with a troop withdrawal, but that would be political suicide for the Dems and Obama, so I'm willing to swallow that jagged pill of escalation for the time being. Otherwise we might chase Al Qaeda back and forth across the boarders for years. If Pakistan does their job correctly (another maybe), things could be dramatically different in the area in another 18 months. It is a possiblility, though a bit remote.
At the moment, Al Qaeda is trapped geographically (though not totally). A withdrawal would give them an open door to re enter Afghanistan.
So many opinions on each side and most of them are warranted. Still, no one can tell what the future holds. Only time will tell that tale. One thing is sure, it's a real mess over there.
It's also hard to deny Rumsfeld's strategic blunder to allow (maybe on purpose?) Bin Laden to escape in the first place. Had Bin Laden been captured or killed, this war could have been over not long after it began, but that would have created problems with selling the Iraq invasion. More theories and speculation. It never ends.
Thot, Well, Well, Well!!! Don’t we have our panties in a bunch. Let’s clear the air Thot. I am just going to assume that you don’t like me….Hmmmm.

I think it has more to do with my ideology than my ad hominem attacks.

I came to terms with the concept of arguing using ad hominem a while back and I am not going to stop. Certain thoughts beget certain thoughts. If you think a certain way, it is a high likelihood that you think other things.

Our thoughts reveal who we are. To attack a thought is fair ground.

Your idiotic “Fact” that the war was “revenge” dismisses you from rational argument. But, for your silly sake I will continue.

My “tribe” the conservative right, wholeheartedly rejects vengeance. Justice is not an eye for an eye. That was old testament law. Now, in the age/dispensation of grace, when it comes to how governments manage justice between governments or non-state actors, justice is defined by quelling and stabilizing. That might be too much for your godless mind to manage but try.

(By the way, if you think it is “revenge” that motivates supporters of the death penalty, boy are you delusional - Another ad hominem.)

As far as whether I copy and past. I am not above doing that to reference a point, but I never post a whole article unless I give the author credit.

As far as your very sad and angry view of what the military does “our brave men and women of the military--the best trained armed forces in the world--did what they were ordered to do: bomb and kill the enemy civilians, kick in doors, and torture prisoners. These were the orders,” what comic books are you reading??

If you don’t straighten up your silly argument within a comment or two, I am not going to take you seriously, (teehee) because of how ridiculous you sound.

If you read my response to mishima666, I said “What Americans are really ignorant about is how powerful the threat of economic instability is to frame policy. The world economic system is way more fragile than we think. If instability in Afghanistan and the cultivation of Al Qaeda & Taliban insurgents has the power to negatively affect the global financial community, then whatever it takes to stabilize that threat is going to happen.”

You obviously were who I was talking about. “The big money people” are just who I said. The world financial and business community is pretty fragile and since we are tracking at accomplishing the U.N.’s goals of reducing hunger worldwide by 2015, any radical instability within that framework is going to be dealt with.

Go to Youtube and search Hans Rosling. Here are some links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVimVzgtD6w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpKbO6O3O3M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qRtDnsnSwk

Don’t be afraid. He is a progressive like you. You might learn something.

Inadvertently he exposes how free markets and America has lifted the world out of poverty in about 2 generations. We are far from finished, but we are moving in a positive direction. All because for American free market principles driven by a spirit of Christian charity. Americans continuously give more than any country in the world.

Just for the sake of conversation…name me one thing you respect about GWB. Fat chance.

From what I gather of your perspective, there is NOTHING noble or worthy or real or valid to our country’s goals, so it doesn’t matter if you agree or not. There is a bad guy under every rock for you. To somehow try to reason with that kind of logic is silly. All I CAN do it attack your thoughts. I don’t want to be you. Your thoughts suck. Peace.
Peacemonger, I was somewhat taken back by your comments and I just wanted you to clarify your statements.

You said: “Had we taken the opportunity then to use that goodwill to position ourselves as supporters of everyone's right to live as they please, we'd be in a totally different world today.”

Then you said: “If America had set an example of enlightened support of the good: if we had offered food, training, education, and the hand of peace in response to the violence we had been offered - if we had actually followed the teachings of the Christ Bush purported to have found when born again and had turned to other cheek and continued to move toward the light, we'd be perceived quite differently today.”

1st, I would like to ask you a few questions. Do you not know how much foreign aid Americans give? Do you not know that the quality of life of the WHOLE WORLD is raised because of or contributions to virtually every charity in the world. Do you not know that we give financial aid, even to our enemies?

Where did you ever get the idea that anyone in government believes “if you lose, we win”? Where were you taught that? Where were you taught that that is what Christians believe?

I know what you are thinking right now. You have dismissed those staements. You don’t believe they matter. You refuse to believe that your argument is affected by those truths. You are puling out the old “yeah but” argument. You are lost.

Your BS subversive attack statement that “Just as I believe the Christian right should have the freedom to live in servitude to an outmoded religion of guilt and fear, so too the Taliban should be able to promote sharia and burquas.”

Were did you learn about Christianity, from MSNBC? That is the silliest thing I have ever read in all of my time on OS.

Let’s get this straight so you and all of OS understand. American Christians and the U.S. free market system that was founded on Christian principles, feeds more, heals more, houses more, clothes more, educates more, employs more, politically liberates more and forgives more debt than any other country, religion or system in the history of the world. You may see it as some secular system now, but that is because only recently (over the last 30 years) the progressives have made strides into the public education system to revise history.

According to I your misunderstanding of how things happen, I guess America should have stood back and allow Germany to keep France. You are ignorant of how thing work and ignorant of how you got where you are. You should find a traditional pastor who preaches the Gospel, feeds the poor, houses the homeless and educates the masses about who God is and thank them for their contribution. Faith based substance abuse programs are the most effective and have the highest success rates.

When you said: “live in servitude to an outmoded religion of guilt and fear” exposes you total lack of understanding of what Christianity is and who Jesus is. Your very twisted and bitter understanding of the Gospel saddens me because “whom the Son sets free, is free indeed”. Peace
Michael, I agree with your positions on most of what you say except I am less cynical of the outcome. Also, why oh why would Rumsfeld want to "on purpose" let Osama get away?
What the hell is going on? Heather, your argument is logical and sound. The comments from Philo777 sound like a FOX non=news genda. The attacks on other commentors (ie Thoth) are so uncalled for and so uninformed. Philo7777messed with the wrong person. Do not attack the one who knows more than you! Get a clue! Do your homework! This is not about ideology but about facts, MF!
Rainee, regarding your statement "don't mess with those who know more than you", you must not read history, or know much about economics. The U.S. economy is 17 times larger than the second largest economy. China is not even a close 4th.

Because of our huge economy, most other country's in the world depend on us for their standard of living. Yes, even those perfect progressive Europeans.

We have a huge responsibility to manage that effectively. That might be too much for you to grasp. Sort of like a dad with 12 kids. He has to keep things running. He can't quit. We have a standard of life in the U.S. not replicated in the world. Yes, I know...small countries do it. But we have 500 examples of small wealthy communities here also. We eclipse the world in lifestyle, opportunity and yes even health care when it comes to volume/quality. Only a hand full of countries even produce enough food to feed themselves and have enough to export. We feed ourselves and half the world also. Wake up and respect who we are. I know you hate the U.S. But tough. You are one so why don't you just face the music that you are a citizen of the new Rome. We rule the world without even trying. Now it is our responsibility to continue to spin the plate of commerce so we can continue to raise people the world over out of poverty.

Go check out ultra progressive Hans Roslings videos on youtube. He supports what I am saying with the real facts.

I am not a FNC plant. I am an independent thinker, which is pretty rare here in the OS world. Peace
@Philos777
You are one hostile little prick ain't ya? Even though the

Afghanistan issue is now very complicated thanks to former coke monkey Bush, I can clearly see that you are a fucking moron.
since you haven't the slightest clue, I'm not going to waste time attacking your idiocy.

I think Thoth did a great job kicking your ass into oblivion

Peace.
In Zain, Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I am amazed at you and Thot, how you were so able to stay on topic with well informed facts. Then, in keeping with the intellectual whimp that he is, he deletes my response to one of his posts. You guys are frauds. Your one bullet knee jerk response attacking GWB is so juvenile it makes me laugh and you look stupid. Shut up and go write about games.
From the new issue of The New Yorker: "Bad Choices" by Rick Hertzberg:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2009/12/14/091214taco_talk_hertzberg
Heather, I know you mean well. But did you notice Hertzbergs last paragraph? "The botched war in Afghanistan". Why is it that every problem that Obama has is inherited is the "fault" of GWB Don't you see the politics in motion? This is easy political capital for Obama. We have to be above that.

True patriotism supports Obama and GWB. This is an American effort. Share with me, please, what the difference is between what Obama just did by sending 30K troops immediately, or "as soon as is possible" and with what Bush did?

If this is just Obama appeasing the right, by sending troops into harms way to make political strides, then he is more of a monster than any progressive ever imagined GWB to be.

No, Obama took nearly 4 months to make up his mind because if we didn't need to be there, he would have pulled out. Please, help me understand otherwise. Try. You can't.

This weekend, the major news outlets are spotlighting how Gates is saying it isn’t a time line and how Obama “implied” that it is. Is Gates wrong? Is Obama vague? Are we going to stay the course and accomplish what the mission is, to destroy Al Qaeda & the Taliban’s influence in the instability in both Afghanistan & nuclear Pakistan? Or, are we going to stay for 18 months and then bail out? Not on your life. Obama won’t have a failure in his lap. He loves his power, as any politician would, too much. I promise you, if we need troops there in 18 months, there will be a nice spin put on how we are reorganizing, with “blah blah blah, more troops, staying longer. The risk of instability is too great.

Progressives remind me of the Fonz when he had to admit he was wwwwrrrrooonnnnggg. He couldn't get the word out of his mouth. Neither can they. What was once a 3rd world, wild west, WMD wielding regional threat known as Iraq, is now a democratic American Allie with a highly trained internal security force in a region that is the most hostile towards America in the whole world. That's called SUCCESS!!!!

The Afghan war was not botched. It is not botched and it more than likely will not be botched. There is too much at stake. To use this type of language indirectly casts a pall over the brave and intelligent military and who and what we are as a people. Washington sets the agenda, the military executes the mission. Obama's Washington hasn't changes the mission. He still has the SAME OBJECTIVE as GWB!!! So is it now Obama's botched war?

The war in Iraq was a raging success. In the grand universe of armed conflicts, there was more humanitarian aid, more social and civil infrastructure built, 50 million people liberated and less cost in human lives than any other conflict of this size in modern times or for that matter human history.

I know progressives don't see any type of military operation as liberation or as liberating, so I expect their jaundice and resistance to the truth. Tell that to France, Austria, Poland, Russia and most of Europe.

Progressives live with the Rodney King doctrine of foreign policy, weeping “Can’t we just all get along”. Tell that to those 3rd world extremists that Lawrence of Arabia organized and gave a few $$ trillion to in 2 generations, & now they want to destroy us. The only reason that ideology can exist and be a threat is because we have armed them with so much money. They had their religion for 1400 years and took their cultures backwards for goodness sake.

The challenge is, like Hitler said, "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”. Anti -war/Anti-liberation/military operation Progressives choose to believe something that is hate driven opinion, not truth.

HELLLOOOO!!!!! Afghan is a f _ _ _ing war! Don't you get that? I know this comes as a shock to progressives, but in war brave people die. That is the cost of maintaining our economic security. That is the cost to preserving our quality of life.

Anything less than the enemy falling down prostrate and begging for mercy and totally willing to surrender and assimilate into American/western/ democratic culture would be seen as a botched effort to you people who live to find fault with your own country.

The war is just that......the war, it is what it is and I leave it up to Obama and Bush, Rumsfeld and Gates to figure it out. The military isn't sandbagging, and the objectives are many times blurred by a changing and elusive enemy. We are staying until we can be assured that no extremist elements are going to destabilize the region, threaten nuclear Pakistan and pose a threat to the western market place. Get a grip.
Philos, we both mean well. Everyone here does.

We all have differing opinions about war policy, war goals, and what constitutes a good president. No two of us thinks exactly alike.

Frankly, one of the reasons I'm MOST proud to be an American -- and, despite what you may think of me, those that know me know I am a patriot -- is that we CAN disagree, we can debate, we can have opinions and air them in a public forum without fear.

We don't have to love our leaders unconditionally; we can respectfully challenge them. We can love our country and all the great things it has done over the last 400 years; we can be mindful about all those ways we have failed to live up to our promise. We can protect ourselves from those that might harm us; we don't have to live in constant terror of them. If we send our soldiers to war for the better part of a decade, we OWE it to them to keep arguing -- keep debating, keep assessing -- to make SURE that what we're asking them to suffer and die for has value and meaning and purpose.
Heather, I agree with you that one of the things that define us as Americans is our distrust of politicians and our capacity to question authority. Sadly, we have cultivated a generation that looses its rationale for the sake of dissension. To dissent for the sake of dissension is foolish and could actually be dangerous. There comes a time when we as good patriotic Americans, must decide, that if there is no good choice, and troops are inevitable, that we support the effort with all of our hearts and pray for victory. That seems like a foreign language for progressives. Progressives would rather die than say that Bush was correct to be in Afghanistan and support him. They would rather condemn him, and call it botched than to agree with GW on ANYTHING!!!

To put this kind of pressure on leaders is unnecessary pressure that is divisive. Then, to not think things through and put your self as much as possible into the mind and perspective of the decision maker is also wrong.

Lastly, any American, who doesn’t believe that ALL of our presidents believe that they are acting in the best interest of the citizenry, is part of the problem. To somehow imply that Bush would deliberately do things for a specific corporate interest, or to hurt America, is insane and that person just wants to believe lies to satisfy their own bitterness. I hope we as a nation of humane and thoughtful people can give those on the other side of the isle the benefit of at least the assumption that they mean well.

I believe Obama means well. I think he is a socialist that believes with all of his heart that at this point in history, socialism is best for America. I disagree.

I am at least glad that he agrees with GWB and understands the threat in Afghanistan. I pray he has the political stamina and virtue to stay the course. We will see if the vitriolic left lets him. A stable Afghanistan & Pakistan are in the best interest of the U.S.
Good debate..It is a difficult conflict because there are two sides of the coin. One side is the isolationist/realist approach. This approach would argue that, all the money and aid are NOT working, and it would be better for the greater good (the American People) to withdraw and fix all the problems at home. In addition, a realist would argue that, the government of Afghanistan is corrupt, the army is extremely weak, and the establishment of an effective central government would be extremely difficult. Ultimately, it would require the US to stay longer and spend more money.

The idealistic side would argue that, the United States should for the following reasons: restore democracy to help the Afghani people, keep the pressure on the Taliban, and keep Iran surrounded. Thus, it serves the getter good for the United States to be involved then withdraw.

These are only two sides of the coin..There are many different approaches you could take to this conflict. The other issue to consider is that, the United States military is a great invasion force. They know how to destroy an enemys ability to fight a conventional war; however, many veterans have noticed that, the United States is extremely weak in nation building, unlike other states like Canada. Canada's military is great at rebuilding war-torn states, and maintain the peace. I get sidetracked, however, the point I am making is that, the Bush Administration must of known that, it would be easy to invade, but extremely difficult to win the hearts and minds of the people of afghanistan.
Ultimatelty, I would pick the side that, the United States should withdraw and fix all its problems at home..However, the reality is that, the Hawks in the US government love this conflict because it generates big money for the defense companies and weapon manufacturers; keeps the pressure on Iran due to all the US forces in Iraq, Afghanistan; and helps protect oil, which the US is heavily dependent on.
Well Coming first hand out of that country. I doubt any realistic stats are coming from the press. From the begining Afghanistan was never meant to have conventional forces there. It started Special Operations and was to continue. However within the year I was there I saw more civilian personal than military. USDA, State Department, Every civilian contracting force. From a stratagy stand point Bush was on point ON POINT! Every soldier who has been there will tell you that. Obama wasted time, resources, American Lives well not giving an answer to the much needed Surge. This surge will include MP's. Thanks to McCyrstal this was possible.
We have been there long enough now were this current generation will complete school.(High School) I think the current figure is 30% for college that completed high school. -PRT PARWAN & Kapisa. I know you never read that!
From a soldiers stand point the meeting of Obama at West Point was insulting. The students at West Point are not in the military yet. Though future officers, very few will see combat. It was a stab in the back for the 3% in Afghanistan who spend our time outside the wire. You were talking about troop level of 50:1. Unless the Air Force and Navy leave the bases this will not happen. Not saying some don't. (Anyone who goes there is 100% in my book). Comparing us to the Soviets is well, insulting. You don't compare one war to another. OR Compare America to Russia or worst Soviet Union. To each it's own. American support from Afghan civilians is high. Many Infantry and Special Operations sleep in the towns with the people. This never happen with SU.
When the people realized that we are not infadals. That a great deal were christian we were accepted. Ignorance......... You want the truth stop watching CNN, FOX, NBC and ask someone who is there. Ask someone who spent time living with the people.
Kathy, I wish your grandson the best of luck. God Speed and a safe return.
Lina- How long did it take Western Countries to allow women any freedoms? We expect things to happen over night. It won't work and neither will pulling out. For women to have more rights in Afghanistan we would have to change a religion. This will make you feel good though. They are able to vote and depending on the village head gear is optional!
ADAM- Disagree with second part. Not True!