
Like several other posters here, I grew up with guns. My father was a sportsman; when he died last summer there were perhaps 20 sporting guns to divvy up, plus some assorted others. I have, locked up, a .22 Colt Woodsman pistol, a .22 Ruger Bearcat revolver, a Browning .22 lever-action rifle, my grandmother's Iver Johnson .410 shotgun, and a German Luger that my grandfather brought home on the troop ship when he returned from WWI. Other than the last one, I'm sure none of them have been used to kill anyone. Also locked up is the Enfield bayonet my grandfather did use to kill someone, allegedly the owner of the Luger. He was barely 18 — my grandfather, I mean, although that may very well be true of the German as well. All Grandpa would ever say about it is that he'd learned he'd rather be shot than bayonetted, if he had the choice. I suspect pulling a bayonet out of a dead soldier is not a pleasant experience. For the rest of his years, my grandfather was a sober, peace-loving man.
My point is that for at least the past 92 years, despite owning what seems like quite an arsenal, no one in my family has ever shot anyone, nor, as far as I know, even menaced anyone.
That record has held because we have never collected any of the miscellaneous other ingredients that, when added to the mix, dramatically increased the potential for accidents, violence and death.
Guns + mind-altering substances
Guns + mental illness
Guns + extreme stress
Guns + fear
Guns + hopelessness
Guns + hatred
In my family — and I have to say that this goes for all the families of my acquaintance, which, granted, is not a random sample — outside of war (you know, that "militia" thing), no one has ever seen a gun as a solution to anything.
Therefore, I can empathize with those who say that guns aren't the problem. I just think they're wrong, because the math works the other way too. Start with any of those other elements and add a gun, and the result is the same.
Last Saturday, I happened to be reading a novel in which a character said that Americans have had guns for more than 200 years; they've had television for 60, and gun deaths are now far more prevalent, per capita, than they were in 1950. Identify the variable, she challenged.
I would add, identify the group to which that variable belongs: outside influences on personal boundaries. My parents might have listened to Tom Mix on the radio, but they certainly weren't exposed to the level of violence that is now so prevalent in entertainment media. Neither were my siblings and I, because television stations did not come to our part of the world until we were teens and by then we'd learned to entertain ourselves in other ways. And neither were our children, really, because we wanted to control the relative amounts of influence that family, peers, school and "pop culture" had on their lives. Laugh if you want, but it worked.
TV is not unique; we now have several more easily accessed sources of influence, and the people and corporations who want to own our opinions are very adept at taking advantage of them. That all adds up to a lot more opportunity for those other factors to creep into our lives. We're bombarded with the suggestion that someone is out to get us and we have to protect ourselves. We're steeped in the belief that we deserve to have everything we want but "they" don't want us to have it. We're surrounded by people who have taken that to heart, and that climate has turned guns into a far greater threat than they once were (or than they still are in most of the rural towns of the West).
Guns rarely kill people on their own. (It happens; I attended a funeral for a kid who found a gun in a field, where it might have rested for 50 years. His dad soaked it in a bucket of solvent, and when the kid reached into pull it out, it discharged. Still, if someone had shown responsibility in not leaving the gun where the kid could have picked it up ....) Most of the time, guns kill people because people see guns as the easiest or the only way out of a situation they think they need out of. Maybe they do; maybe they don't. All that matters is that they believe it.
Very few of them developed that idea on their own; instead, it's been suggested to them over, and over, and over, until it no longer seems remarkable, until aiming a weapon at someone seems only logical. "What else," they demand to know, "would you have me do?"
We would have had you avoid that situation in the first place. We would have had you seek help before it got so bad. We would have preferred that you took your loss and walked away, because after all, it was a small loss compared to someone's life. We wanted you to solve the problem calmly and peacefully.
Too often, though, they lack the ability to do that. They've been robbed of the skills by those factors in the equations above, and by the constant murmur of the culture with which they've chosen to associate, possibly without ever realizing they had a choice not to.
Here is what I would ask of Congress: Summon up some political courage and do the right thing.
Failing that — and it will fail — here is what I would say to the gun lobby: No more lies. There is a constant in every one of those equations. Admit it. Help deal with it. Don't fudge on the other math either; we know that every year, every day, guns harm more people than they protect. Consider the math in Jared Loughner's case: one man, one gun, a pile of bodies. Don't give me that bullshit about "if only someone had been armed." Four unarmed people disarmed Jared Loughner. Don't pretend that civilization would fall apart if we weren't all armed; you can't convince me because I have 92 years of family history without a single shot in self defense. Deal with the truth: Guns render each of those other problems far more deadly. Restricting them would save people.
If you don't want people like me "threatening" your precious 2nd Amendment rights, deal with the problems honestly. Then maybe we can talk. Until then, don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I do, and it disagrees with what you're saying.


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Cool story about Grandpa though (I mean besides being in a kill or be killed situation). Mine (Dad's side that is.. Mom's Daddy died before we came along) was born in 1899 so was barely too young to get sucked into WWI.
Sure they do, Trig, and so does everyone else in the supply chain. Why not admit it? "Making money is more important to us than all the lives it costs." But no.
When my brothers were little, they used to ask to see the bayonet, and they'd sit for hours, imagining they saw bloodstains. But even they didn't grow up bayoneting people for fun.
The funny thing is that the person, who didn't know me from Adam. seemed fully convinced that she knew my motivations for owning guns. That would qualify, by dictionary definitons, as a from of prejudice. As long as anti-gun people demonize gun owners just for the fact of being gun owners, there will be no useful discussion of the issue.
Matt, where did you get the idea I have "no use" for them? I believe all I said was that we'd never shot anyone or threatened anyone. If that equated to "no use," I believe it would make the argument that the only reason for owning guns is to use them against other human beings. It's easy to parrot "Ack - pry it from my cold dead fingers - ack!" It's a little more difficult to address the concerns of actual gun owners who believe some restrictions are justifiable.
Retablo, yes, life has many paradoxes, and that is one. At base, though, this is the consistency to which I cling: The Founders were right in listing life before liberty and the pursuit of gratification.
I might have gotten a different impression had you mentioned any use at all you or family members make of those guns, such as hunting or recreational target shooting. As it is what comes through to me is a sense that while these guns were part of your childhood they now sit in the cabinet as...I don't know, relics? Mementos? Embarrassments? You seem so detached from them now.
The founding fathers thought of guns as a means of defending the country, hunting for food, and defending ouuselves; never did they consider that guns would some day be used by the angry, the hate filled and the delusional as a means to slaughter more than 10,000 citizens a year-- nearly half a million people in the 20th century. To interpret the second amendment as does the NRA leadership is clearly absurd.
Our government spends billions of dollars defending us from foreign terrorists and ignores the very real threat of home grown terrorists, a threat that causes all of us to live in fear for our lives. The odds of being killed by a foreign terrorist are far smaller than winning the lottery; that is not true of the american terrorist: he shoots 150 people every day.
My friends in the NRA tell me to, "just carry a gun then you won't have to worry." But it is not just myself that I am worried about. What about our wives and sons and daughtersand grandchildren in school and in the workplace, in the parks and the malls, the barbershop and the restaurant, the tavern and the college. Are they suggesting that every one of those peole carry too?
If every citizen were armed 24/7, can you imagine the carnage that would take place every time someone lost their temper or felt insulted--or thought the government planted a listening device in their brain?
Arming everyone is what the NRA leadership proposes, but who does that serve? It serves one organization very well: the weapons manufacturers which make 10,000 guns a day and need to sell them to make a profit. The weapons manufacturers, like we just saw with the big banks, are willing to make their profits even if it destroys this country; that is what is driving this madness--along with the naive who see themselves as John Wayne or James Bond.
That might seem like hyperbole today, but when Mr. Henry said it he was dead serious, fortunately for us.
I've never shot anyone. I have had several opportunities to defend myself and always found a way around the use of deadly force.
The problem is that there are broken people, not broken laws.
Take the guns away. Then you will find people being shot with crossbows. Take the crossbows away. People will be murdered with axes, hammers, knives, sticks, rocks and whatever else is available, like automobiles, Molotov Cocktails.....and so on and so forth.
The problem is with the human spirit, not firearms.
I'm Jewish. I can read history. I will never be without at least one firearm because I am Jewish and I have read history.
The Warsaw uprising began with one revolver.
No, I don't think that Americans have any business owning military grade automatic weapons. That's just bullshit. But then you run into people who conglomerate semi-automatic weapons with automatic firearms, and attempt to ban the one under the rubric of the other.
The problem with this is that there are many people who cannot handle a revolver but can fire a semi-automatic pistol because they lack the hand strength to pull the trigger on a revolver. This groups includes the elderly and the infirm.
It is impossible to draw a line between acceptable weapons and unacceptable weapons.
What strikes me as most odd is our inability to simply accept the tragedy as it is without immediately attempting to draw "teachable moments" from it.
And, by the way, the kid wasn't a Tourette's patient. He was clearly an advanced case of Alzheimer's Disease. He has been described as having inappropriate behaviors, not being about to understand visual cues....Paranoid yes.
And that will be all for our exchange.
Fred, yes, the NRA does serve that one constituency extremely well. It's too bad more people can't see that clearly.
Sagemerlin, again, I have not suggested disarming anyone. In fact, that is my point: There is a reasonable middle ground.
the line that struck me -- and i mean made me stand completely still for a moment (though i was sitting) -- is, "We're bombarded with the suggestion that someone is out to get us and we have to protect ourselves."
for me, that's the crux of the whole issue. why do so many people believe that? and why do they think that having a gun would protect them? from whom? do you know anyone who owns a gun (i do, lots) who has scared away a person who threatened them with a gun (i don't, not one)? none of the gun owners i know have ever even *pointed* a loaded gun at someone. the argument is always that "well, i could, though, if i needed to."
were there more crimes against people and property *before* all these guns were around? do fewer bad guys break into houses or try to hurt or rape or kill people because they *know* more people have guns? are more crimes thwarted because victims have brandished guns? i'd sure like to know the answers to some of those questions. and if i had them and the answers supported the idea that having a gun makes you safer, i'd be more than willing to accept the other side's argument.
Femme, I agree; I've never known anyone who's done that either, and yet I know quite a few people who believe that it could happen at any moment. It could. Lightning could strike. North Korea could invade. Meanwhile, though, a lot of people are being shot.
P.S. I don't own and never even wanted a gun, but I'm thinking about it now.
Gotta love that sound.
I don't think anybody should infringe on this. For many folks, particularly poor folk in rural areas, its a necessity.
r
-R-
@Gabby: :) There are 58 reasons NOT to break in our house, tucked under our bed. Thank god we've never had to use them . . yet.
Someone armed with a stone, axe or hammer will have a far lower death count than one armed with a semi-automatic. Loughner left 6 dead and 14 wounded. If he'd had a less lethal weapon, the chances are good he'd have had only one victim, who stood a decent chance of surviving.
If there's a lunatic on a rampage in front of you, at your wife's workplace or your kids' school, what do you want him armed with? A gun or a stone?
You talk about TV and other ways we are bombarded with stuff you believe are making us use guns on each other. What is your proof that there is a cause and effect. I would bet that the people who do gun violence also ate fast food in the week leading up to their shootings. Maybe it was that McDonald's hamburger that pushed them over the edge? Just because A and B both happen doesn't mean they are related.
Maybe we should ban TV. Would that end gun crime? Since the vast majority of Americans watch TV and all the other stuff you are laying the blame on, how come most Americans are not out on the street killing people?
You also need to check your facts about one of the guys who held the shooter down. He did have a CCW. He was armed. He showed restraint, control and good judgement. There was no reason to use the weapon, he didn't.
But wait, there's more. In 2002, as reported by the Richmond Times Dispatch, a student stopped a shooting at a local college with a hand gun. The student is quoted in the paper as saying, "Me and Ted and [student] Rob Sievers went out to look. A professor ran up the stairs and said, 'Peter [Odighizuwa] has got a gun and he's shooting.' I ran back and told the class to get out. They went out the back way," Bridges said.
"We went down, too, and Peter was in the front yard. I stopped at my vehicle and got a handgun, a revolver. Ted went toward Peter, and I aimed my gun at him, and Peter tossed his gun down. "
Then there is Pearl, MS where a 16 year old killed and wounded several people at his high school before being stopped by assistant principal Joel Myrick who retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham inside his mother's car.
What would Woodham have done without a gun? Well we know that answer. Before coming to the school he fatally stabbed and bludgeoned his sleeping mother. No gun needed here.
Finally if you want to know someone who was saved because he carried, I'm glad to meet you. There was a time where I carried lots of cash to the bank at night. Late one night while I was making my drop a group of 4 or 5 started at me. No, they weren't walking by. To where I was is the only place they could get to. I turned towards them, pulled my jacket open on the left side to reveal a firearm. The group made a sudden direction change back to a common public area. No, you will not find this in any police report like most people who protect themselves or their family with a gun there is no need to so reports.
One final question. For the sake of argument let's say you get you gun laws passed. There are already tens of thousands of laws against using guns in a crime. If someone walks up to you and is going to rob you, or goes to a public place and shots into a crowd, he has just broken dozens of them. So why are they going to care that they just broke one more? I would bet that most of these people don't legally own the gun they robbed you with which means they broke another law to get it. So how would your law prevent them from getting a gun?
Thanks for answering.
Rated.
http://www.blownawaythebook.com/
Two statistics are forever going to overlap: 30 percent of American homes contain a firearm and 25 percent of us will suffer from mental illness during our lifetime. The odds, then, of someone who should NOT have access to a firearm while too mentally ill to handle it safely and responsibly, are poor. This will never change. No politician or policy expert or think tank I have ever spoken to has come up with a solution.
Thanks to all who commented. I'm not likely to get every comment answered because, unfortunately, I work for a living. Now I get to scroll up and down and try to keep track of where I am. So, to those of you who had positive things to say, thanks.
Gabby, I'm glad they left! An interesting discussion that I'd like to have sometime is the ways in which modern humans have expanded (at least in perception) their safety because of technologies that in the past have not existed. I think about that a lot in the winter at 8,800 feet, and I think it's also true of feeling protected in places that are dangerous. Yet remains true that more people die of exposure high in the mountains, and more people die of gunshot wounds in places like Miami. They key is really understanding the risks before consenting to them, I suspect.
Abrawang, I don't believe that reasons for violence are uniform throughout the world. I don't even believe they're uniform over a much smaller area of the United States. What I do believe, however, is that there are cultures of violence (including cultures that incorporate quite a mythology of guns, e.g. the Wild West), and cultures of nonviolence.
Catmus, I stand corrected about one of the people who stopped the shooter. However, without coming into play, a handgun is no more relevant than a knife, a nail file or any of the other objects that have been classified as weapons. I disagree that a line is impossible to draw. One cannot be drawn with absolutely consensus; that does not mean one cannot be drawn with a sound statistical and moral basis.
Bonnie, you may choose to frame the problem entirely in that way, I do not. While the NRA is a huge force in terms of protecting the availability of weapons, and of convincing certain groups of people that those weapons are essential, and while I have absolutely no use for the NRA, there are other significant factors. I am most familiar with those in the rural interior West; those in other regions differ, but such cultural factors are quite determinative in people's minds and choices. Should someone break in with the intent of stealing guns from my house, they would have to deal with a safe in the basement and trigger locks on each weapon, which aren't the kinds of guns criminals want anyway. We don't have much of a problem here with gun thefts from homes — again, different culture.
Thanks again, everyone. Paid employment beckons.
The two obvious justifications for gun owners in the USA to the limitations and even logical regulations of possessing arms are based on the distrust of the government and distrust of the efficacy of law enforcement. Normally one might think that a citizen distressed by these basic lacks in the nature of government, and there is no doubt that these lacks are real and not the uncontrolled outage of wild imagination, would be to form community protests and political action groups to remedy the problems. It seem that gun owners are fascinated by the possibilities of potential and perhaps actual violence rather that civil use of effective government. This is perhaps a reaction to the increase of open corruption in all sections of government and the gross misuse of government power to subdue normal effective political protest. I'm afraid this signals dire consequences in the near future for the country.