I took a risk this weekend. I veered off course from the lighter side of OS and ventured to comment on DktrShe's post about breast-feeding in public. Bad idea. Now, here is an even worse idea. I am going to blog more about it.
What I really took offense to was not DktrShe's post. Her discussion of an injustice to a woman who got fired for taking an unscheduled break at work to pump her breasts was spot on. In my comments there I stated, and I will repeat the sentiment here, no one, male or female, should get fired for having to take an unscheduled break to attend to a physical need like breast pumping, having to pee or change your tampon. That, quite frankly, is a no duh.
Rather what I took offense to were the snipes in the comments directed at me, and people who do not have children in general, that referred to us as "The Childless"and "The Wrathful Child-Free" because we aren't prepared to lay prostrate at the feet of women who choose to propagate. To those who hiss "childless!" I say bite me. Choosing to have children doesn't make you a saint. You need more than afterbirth to qualify as a martyr. (Oh, do keep your hissing to yourself.)
When I was eight years old, I made the decision that I would never have children. I knew then, with three younger sisters, that I had no maternal instincts towards human children. None whatsoever. I have never wavered from that stance. It had nothing to do with the way I was raised. My sisters Parrish and Helen have five kids between them. My sister Terese and her girlfriend Elizabeth are enthusiastically going through the process to have kids of their own. Potential sperm donors email me for an application. People in my family reproduce and like it. I, on the other hand, do not.
When I was 16, I got pregnant. It did not once, not even for a nanosecond, occur to me that I would see the pregnancy through. Between that time and my 35th birthday, I was to get pregnant three more times. I was to see none of them through. (If you are going to get pro-life on me, this is your invitation to leave. Your morals are your own, not mine.) I did not get pregnant because I was lazy, sloppy, drunk, stupid, or not using birth control. I have used nearly every kind of birth control available on the market. When I was 16, I started on the pill. I took it for 2 weeks and wound up in the ER with blood clots, and was it not for my doctor's keen ability, I would not be here to snark at you today. I managed to get pregnant off a diaphragm, a cervical cap, and the sponge.
When I met my husband, we had been together two weeks when I announced that I was getting a tubal ligation. I needed him to understand that being with me, no matter how fabulous it might seem, was never, under any circumstances going to involve children. My previous beau of 7 years had never been able to digest this information and it was one of the key reasons we eventually parted ways. On the 35th anniversary of the day of my birth, I went under anesthesia and had my tubes cauterized, forever sealing the deal.
Let's pause for a moment of clarity. I am sterilized because I do not want children. This does not mean that I am a child hater. I adore my nieces and nephew. I think my friends' children are great. I thought Dakota Fanning was the cutest little girl I had ever seen. However, I do not want, unless it is dire, to be put in a situation where I have to raise them. I don't do diapers. I don't do temper tantrums, unless I'm throwing them. I laugh uproariously at my sisters having to deal with puberty and teenage angst again with their daughters.
I helped babysit my eldest two nieces when my sister was separated from her husband and living at home. I did not enjoy it at all - particularly the one episode when I found the youngest, Chaconne, wandering my mother's pied-a-terre, which smelled overwhelmingly of shit, covered in glistening yellow oil. I screamed for my Tia Consuelo (my family's housekeeper of over 40 years) like a banshee. I was heaving over the stairs and having none of cleaning the child. Thank God Tia has no sense of smell. Had I been on my own the child would have stayed that way until her mother got home. (It was later determined that Chaconne had opened an bottle of Neutrogena bath oil and smeared it all over herself after having taken the world's worst smelling shit.) By the time my youngest sister had her first daughter, Zayla, I defiantly announced that Tante, as the children call me, would never be babysitting again.
Now that most of the children are older, I quite enjoy their company. They are bright, articulate, and several of them have their Tante's snarky sense of humor. My youngest nephew who screams "NO!" whenever I come into the room (bright child), and whom I call Token as he is the only male in two generations, will appreciate me when he is old enough to be ready to come out of the closet.
So, back to my point. I am childless and without maternal instincts. However, I do not think this is such a bad thing. I could have been a teenage mother. I could have dropped out of high school and raised a child I resented, rather than stay in school and eventually get a master's degree. I could have had four children by my early 30's and been both a resentful and an inadequate parent four times over. Eegaads! I could have been 1/2 of Nadia Suleman. Mind you, I'd be the half that didn't want to look like Angelina Jolie. But, no. Instead, I decided to take another course of action. I decided to be childless. (Oh do stop hissing! You sound like a snake with a lisp.)
Now I will admit it, I do not always like everyone's children. Actually, that is not accurate. It is usually not the child I do not like, but rather it is the parents. When I am in Target and there is a child screaming at the top of its lungs "Mommy, mommy, mommy I waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnntttttttt it!" and the mother is debating between baked and fried Doritos and ignoring the child, I do not want to hit the kid, I want to hit the mother. I am the woman you will hear about on the news someday and will be called The Target Mother Slapper. When a child says something rude to me, I don't blame the child. It isn't the child's fault that their parents didn't have the sense to raise them any better. I blame the parents. Children mirror their parents.
Last month my husband and I were on a plane in a configuration that I can only describe as my own worst nightmare. Small plane, four seats across. Dave has the window and I have the aisle 'cause I am claustrophobic. Immediately to my left is the couple with the newborn - and I mean umbilical cord still bandaged newborn. To my left and one row behind is a mother with her 3-year-old daughter. Directly behind us are the woman's nanny and the 5-year-old son. This is a recipe for turning a 2 1/2 hour flight into a Quentin Tarantino film. We are not even ready to taxi and the mother has tuned out the 3-year-old asking "Mommy why aren't we flying? Why? Why? Why Mommy why?" in favor of her novel while her son kicks the back of Dave's seat. The woman actually smirked at me when I shot her my "You're just lucky I'm worried there's an Air Marshall on this plane" look. The way I was raised, I would have been instructed to ask the nice man in front of me if he wouldn't mind if I kicked his seat for 2 hours straight. And then to thank him when he said "No, please do not."
My husband and I both work hard for a living. We both have 60-80 hours weeks sometimes. Therefore, when we take a night off to go out for dinner or to watch a movie, we are looking forward to each other's company or the company of other adults. All of our friends know that dinner parties at our house are preferred to be childfree affairs. We intentionally go to movies at the 21 and over theatre when we can. I do not want idle chatter, cell phones, or children wailing to interfere with my movie experience. We go to restaurants that cater to adults. We are looking for an adult night out and time off. It's my $50, $100, $200 to spend on a meal and I'm not going to have a passel of children screaming wildly while I'm sucking down my Fettuccini Carbonara at $18 a plate, spoil my meal.
For me, eating out is a sacred experience. If I wanted your "adorable" child to run between tables screaming and giggling while I am eating dinner, I would go to Chuck E. Cheese. I went to a dinner party once where the parents ignored the child who was running in circles around the living room screaming at a decibel level that would make Mariah Carey hoarse. In my youth an adult arm would have come flying out and cut you off mid-lap around the room. It didn't happen that night, and really not many of today's parents would stop their child from doing it. Parents don't think of their children's behaviour as rude or inappropriate. They either don't see/hear it, or they think it is cute because their precious child is expressing themselves.
A few months ago someone wrote a post about how he and his wife took their newborn infant to see the Harry Potter film. The night before he and his wife had left their child with a sitter and gone to seen the film. However, the next day their jones for all things Hogwarts was so intense that they needed to see the film again, and this time took their infant. Seriously. Can you really tell me that this isn't the act of a set of selfish people concerned with their own desires above those of their child? Forget annoying the shit out of me when you get up and run out of the theatre with a screaming infant. What the fuck are you thinking? Oh, that's right. You are thinking about your needs. Not your kid's. Not the other movie goers'. Nope, just yours. (Really, enough with the hissing. Speaking Parseltongue isn't any more popular here than it is in Little Whinging.)
Now back to the taboo subject that sent me off on this here rant. If I wanted to watch you breast feed I would ask. It is not sexual with me. Your tits do not turn me on nor do they offend me. I'm not modest by nature and I don't expect you to be. However, personally I find breast-feeding creepy and most certainly it is not appetizing. That's my opinion, and frankly, I'm entitled to it. I am not saying that women who are breast-feeding or have infants should be shut-ins. Let's be clear and do not misquote me on this point at the PTA meeting. However, I do think that they should show a little discretion and better planning. If you cannot go out for dinner without starving your child to death, perhaps you should look at your priorities. What is more important? Your need for the never-ending-pastabowl and bread sticks or your child's need for sustenance? My mother taught me not to belch after my meal, not to put my elbows on the table or whip my tits out while others were eating. If you do decide to be selfish and bless the rest of us with your presence and that of your infant at dinner in a restaurant, retire to the Ladies' Room or somewhere else to feed them. That is all I am asking. (Are you still hissing or is there something stuck in your throat? Do I need to call 911?)
When I remark to you, your friends, or anonymous strangers on a blog, that I don't find sharing your moment of maternal bonding with you as entertaining, blissful, or endearing as you might, don't come back at me with the snarled word "childless.” It is not an insult. It is a decision and a choice, just like your decision to breed. You don't hear me snarling "breeder!" or "udder cow" in retort.
The reality is we are not a tribal society. We don't really believe it takes a village to raise children. We'd like to think that we're that open to each other's input or suggestions about how to raise our children or how our children should behave, but we're not as Beth Mann found out recently. In a number of situations it comes down to an"us" vs "them" mentality. When those of us who do not have children venture to suggest that we don't like the way a child or a mother is behaving we're met with the ubiquitous, and snottily intoned, question "Do you have children?" or the world "childless" is snarled in our general direction.
What I truly find so offensive about the hissed word "childless" is that it is bandied about by women as if it were "whore", "hussy,” "scarlet woman.” As if my decision not be a bad parent and not to emotionally starve, neglect, or abuse a child makes me a bad person. The difference between me and the woman breastfeeding at the table next to me, or letting her child scream unattended through a restaurant, is that I am willing to acknowledge my selfishness and not confuse it with martyrdom.

Salon.com
Comments
Chuck - it really is all about the choices. Thank you.
even gave me an idea for a post. whatta bonus!
Where I unconditionally respect your decision not to have children (and even to some degree, I have to admit jealousy), I was a little confused by your position on breastfeeding in public. You *say* you're not offended by it, and then you went on to rant about a woman "whipping out her tit". I agree it can be done discreetly, and there are people whose defiant body language suggests they're feeding the child to stir up a bee's nest. But that is not why most people are feeding their kids in public.
I don't know about you, but when I got married, there was a noticable difference in the way poeple perceived me. Almost like I was a member of some kidn of new secret club. When you say you're married, there's sort of an unspoken graduation into adulthood. Well, I can say, the same kind of holds true for becoming a parent. It really does alter the way you view people and life. Upon becomign a mother, I became a much more sympathetic person. Now, when I see a homeless person, I think "That man is someone's son. Someone in this world loves/loved him and their heart is breaking to know he's here." Another illustration in the change for me was the Michael Jackson Balcony Dangling episode. Pre-pregnancy my reaction was "What the fuck?" Post-birth-of-1st-child was halted breathing, sheer terror, irrational thoughts about what could have happened.
I did not hiss at all where you inserted audience directionals; but I have to say, that some of your views do seem a bit contradictory to me.
As I’m sure Terese and Elizabeth have told you, they are probably hearing the exact opposite thing "How DARE you have children"! Gawd knows Amy and I did when we had our daughters. Same asshats, same song, just a different key.
P.S. BTW, the only thing you missed by not having kids is the opportunity to be a total absolute crazed bitch at PTA meeting and watching "those" self same asshats trying to tell you to sit down and shut up in a politically correct, non-judgmental manner (to your face anyways). There should be a monthly charge for having that much fun! :D
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::kiss::
I fixed your post! ;)
I don't give a damn about breastfeeding, but I know exactly the hiss and tone you're talking about. Heard it most of my fertile life.
Glad THAT'S over.
Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
as for not having kids GOOD. I'm glad you opted for sterile and saved yourself a lot of contraception money and the grief on both ends....
I WILL tell children to knock it off if they're hitting my seat. I'll say it nicely but I will definitely say it. And I'll look at their parents too.
Everyone is accountable in my world because yes we are a village and you're fucking it up so you need to know that right now. Also I will address children who's parents are either negligent or assholes. There were two 10-12 yr olds in sears a few weeks back PLAYING ON THE ESCALATOR. SO I told them they mustn't do that and explained why. Their parents were off in the aisles doing whatever and their kids were (as I saw it) one second away from having their skin peeled from them and they needed to know it.
As for breastfeeding, I'll look away but it doesn't thrill me to see it blatantly done in a public venue. I breast fed, so I know a diaper or a small blanket can go a long way to covering everything neatly. There are shrouds that women can use for modesty purposes, if like the freedom of walking around and then sitting down and breastfeeding at will. I think public breastfeeding is okay combined with discretion. I don't think it's appropriate to show the world your breasts being suckled unless you're on a nude beach or in a place where EVERYone is nude or partially. breasts are private. call me old fashioned.
Some bathrooms are not conducive to feeding a baby: they're dirty, they smell bad, there's only a toilet and a sink....there's any number of reasons a woman won't go into a public bathroom to feed a kid, breast or bottle.
Whether or not to go out WITH the baby is another story. We were young and poor so I took my kid everywhere, including movies. But these were back in the days of BIG theaters with BIG balconies and lots of space and we sat in the last row way up up there on an off night and I was superfast shoving either the breast or the bottle into the kid's mouth. Superboob I guess, in more ways than one. hahahahah
Stacey - "We are each others' ambience except in the privacy of our entitled spaces. " Precisely.
AshKW - I'm glad I gave you a good giggle :)
femme - thank you and PM me the link when you do the post!
queertrarian - Thanks I might need it. And you know those there sexual deviants - they are always so trendy ;)
Indiegirl - your mama and I have the same set of skills. It is a hard power to acquire and sometimes hard to control! I've been known to inadvertantly reduce a child to tears in a check-out aisle.
GirlyBoyMama - Like I said to Juli - it's not all the parents all of the time, just some of the parents some of the time. I know that there are good parents out there like you and Juli. My sisters are those parents. Also, allow me to clarify. I am not offended by breasts. I, for reasons known only to God, find the idea and the act of breast feeding creepy. If you (and I'm saying you in general not you in particular) need to do it and I come into your space, the onus is upon me to extricate myself from the situation. If I come into the women's room and you're breast feeding it's up to me to leave. But, if I'm at dinner in a restaurant- and yes this has happened to me - and you feel the need to breast-feed sitting in the middle of the restaurant while I'm dipping my pita in my hummus, then yes, I am offended because you've decided that your needs supersede those of anyone else in the room. Perhaps that's a less contradictory explanation.
R anyway
I think the teat wielders kind of do it to push buttons, like a Brittany and Madonna open mouth kiss to see how cool or squeamish folk are. I had a dark boite of a wine bar for ten years with a no kid policy. Boy was I unpopular with the Gymboree set. But what self respecting kid wants roquefort crostini with fig and sage honey anyway? I mean it was a respite for folks who had the sense to get a baby sitter. If you can spend $200 on dinner, pop $30 for a sitter and let the rest of us relax in our Child FREE (childless sounds yearnful...) bliss. Breast feeding is a bodily function like pooping. and I don't want to see that at Table 9 either. It's private. Kind of like PDA and sex. There are just some things you don't do in civilized modern society. Does it make me a prude? Hell no. I just think it's gross and a leeeetle to intimate for public. Like when Angelina Jolie used to French Billy Bob on the red carpet. Ewwwwww! But I will say that I am sick of mommies acting like the rest of us don't get it. Um, on the contrary I saw that train coming down the pike a long time ago and decided NEVER would this be my destiny. I too am getting sterilized because at 42, I'm pretty darn certain that I don't want a ripped condom to result in a love child from my Guatemalan gardener. So I get it. I don't want it, but I get it. And how come you get special treatment and can leave work early because Johnny has a soccer match and the rest of us egg droppers have to work til 7pm at the salt mine. Ohhh, because you have a family. I see. Well, I would like to make a 7pm Salsa class but never can because I'm sitting on the interstate while you're tucking into your Hamburger Helper at home with the fam. But thank goodness I'm still hauling it to work to throw more in the tax pot to pay for all the public schooling and bussing for your little darlings.
And I never see the relaxed totally cool family strolling down the road to a picnic. I see the harried mom, the undersexed dad, all the gear you people drag with you everywhere (including dear god, the airplane) and lots of bickering over discipline. I also see behavioral training that wouldn't make it past a puppy primer class at the Pet Store. Rewarding bad behavior, bargaining. Having a "baby" means you got pregnant. Not a miracle. Trust me. Parenting? Totally different. Bring it on breeders. Rated
Not a mother, just curious.
VR - Yes, Child-Free does sound better than Childless. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ;)
Andy - Anyone who wants my ovaries and eggs are welcome to them. Unfortunately I'm now too old to get the $5000 offered up in those ads on Craig's List :)
nofrills - I would never call you old fashioned, but I might call ya Cyn :)
CK - I applaud your daughter too. Once you've made the decision it can be a tough one to explain to people. So often I hear, even now when I tell people I'm voluntarily sterile, "You'll change your mind." Like I'm having a whim.
John - I have dogs who love me unconditionally and never talk back. It is nirvana. So don't feel sorry for me in the slightest.
MDawn - I knew I was preachin' to the choir with you sistah.
SP - precisely - they should be raised by people who want them and will give them the proper care and guidance.
Leeandra - No, I would not be offended. However, I still wouldn't be enthusiastic about sharing my evening repast with an infant. I'm not a lean over the carriage and coo kind of person, in case you've not noticed ;) You don't want to get me started on how I think I have lesions on my brain induced by the blood curdling wail of a screaming baby!
I think that deserves to be repeated.
Why anyone would have a problem with this, I have no idea.
Really?
You feel sorry for those of us who have always known we don't want kids because...we have no kids?
Do you have any idea how asshat-condescending that sounds?
Person A: I've never wanted a gas-guzzler.
Person B: I love my Hummer. I feel so sorry for you. [pat pat pat on the head]
That's the kind of cluelessness makes my Slappy Hand very, very itchy.
I'm glad you ended up being OK with being a parent after the fact, but pleeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaase, spare us the smarmy, self-assured expressions of pity.
We have developed the machismo of mother suffering as a way to honor motherhood, when it is what it is: Motherhood. It is not enlightenment, it is not transformational, it is not inspiring, it is not heroic etc. It is motherhood with all it's joy, complexities and at times futility. I find those who try to make it more than it is, to be the ones that are conflicted about their choice.
Our world offers the choice of either being a mother and not being a mother. The trend to make either choice heroic, virtues or not virtues is ridiculous. I am glad I live in an age that people can choose.
My life goal was never, and is not now, to get married and have kids. Good post Surly. Thanks for sticking up for the "childless" women who also made a choice!
I really don't understand why people pressure everyone to have children, except of course to justify their own choices. It's hard enough to do well at parenting, as can be seen widely, no one should be urged to have children they don't want.
Breastfeeding in public - I'd prefer not to see it but if done very discreetly, it's tolerable.
Great piece.
Rated, with some reservations, but rated nonetheless.
As I grew older and matured my decision to remain childless was further reinforced in what can only be described as "Stop the Insanity". My maternal "instincts" are satisfied by my mongrel horde and if someone is fractious we can have a timeout in a dog crate and no one will be calling DSS on me. Anyway bravo to you, no hissing from this corner.
Cheryl - You're welcome and good on you!
Stellaa - eloquently and succinctly said.
Trig - Amen brother!
spotted_mind - you're welcome.
Suz- The need to pressure is interesting isn't?
Michael - Good 'cause I thought you might need me to shout it louder ;)
LadyMiko- Amen and thank you.
Cindy Ross - I understand your reservations and I have read your pieces, so I understand why. A truce would be nice. Perhaps we can get Robin to pour martini's while we negotiate the treaty on behalf of both sides :)
I'm not saying that I disagree with everything you say. Some consideration is called for. Of course, I'm not one of those people who thinks it's always fun to be around my own kids, let alone the spawn of others. But, between the gourmet meal (adults only) and Chuck E Cheese, there probably ought to be a gray zone where we all just learn to tolerate each other (provided I promise to remove any screaming toddlers that belong to me, and you promise not to shriek into your cell during the meal).
Shannon - sounds like a deal to me.
I knew at 8 yrs. of age that I did want children. My daughters are now 9 & 11. I enjoy them more every day.
I got lucky. They never threw fits or screamed in public. The got lucky - I always covered if I had to nurse them in a public place. Even back then there were handy nursing blouses. They weren't very stylish but if not for baby's lower half sticking out :) That was much cuter than my huge boob sticking out, ha!
Ok, I am child-free, sort of by choice. That means I never found a man I trusted enough to not turn into a deadbeat asshat with whom I'd have to share a lifetime of grief. My husband never wanted children and got fixed at 35 just to make sure it never happened. As a result, and not so strangely, all our friends are also childfree. Funny how we all glommed together over time. Like finds its way to like I guess.
I can honestly say that I've never had to deal with the hissing attitude, but then I pretty much steer clear. I also do not appreciate it when woman breastfeeds without at least throwing a shawl over the whole scene. NO, I do not want to see your oversized breast!! And I know if I had had children, I wouldn't be whipping it out just anywhere either.
That said, and I know I am drifting wildlyhere, your rant makes perfect sense to me. I too blame the parents for ill-behaved children. I also understand, a la Cindy Ross, that all children are not easily disciplined.
As for the restaurant thing, letting a child run freely about in a restaurant is tantamount to CHILD ABUSE in my opinion. I worked in many a restaurant, and it is the MOST DANGEROUS place you could let your child run free next to setting them down on a freeway. I have a scar down my leg from 2nd degree burns I received when I bumped into another server who was carrying a tray of freshly poured coffee. My stockings melted onto my leg and I had to go to the ER to have them removed. Imagine if that coffee had spilled on the face of a child whose parents couldn't be bothered to keep them at the table?
The dishes are heavy, the food is piping hot, there are steaming liquids and people rushing to serve dinner to 8 or 10 tables at a time. Your free-range child is in GREAT DANGER if you let them run wild in any restaurant. GOT THAT MOM AND DAD!!!!! Children should be strapped in to their chair at a restaurant and never allowed to leave the table without adult supervision. Same thing in an airplane.
1. There is no such thing as a childless person. Children belong to everyone. Why? Because we all have to live with them in the end. It's a discounted cliche but also an axiom: it takes a village. Nothing on God's green earth I believe more than that.
2. Who you are now and who you are after having a child are two different things. It's easy to discount oneself when trying to project forward.
That said, don't be thinking I don't think you're kick ass just the way you are.
xoxo
One nice thing though, people use to come around going, "So when are you having children?" Now, not so much!! :)
And yes, I've been in situations where it's a good thing its against the law to murder people and their children, especially on planes and movie theaters!!!
No hisses or boos here. Just a rate. And a nod in agreement.
JK - okay can I just say OUCH! Just thinking about that burn makes me queasy.
mamoore - JK's right - your children may just need a pop culture intervention. I don't know if we can repair the damage done with the whole Randolph Mantooth scars, but we can try.
AR- I think we speak about it more freely online, but it's there in the real world.
Emma - thank you.
Stim - you're a riot.
Cindy - I'd like to be more like mamoore too, if it wasn't for that whole Randolph Mantooth fetish.
harry - I'll take point 2 for $100. You're right there is a change. However it isn't always a change for the better or for the worst.
tinkertink - I'm sorry that sucks. To want it and not be able to have children and be denied is just mean spirited on someone's part. But, frankly, I think the Mrs. has her hands VERY full raising you. :)
I admire women who chose their life rather than allowing life to make their choices for them. That's a strength not many of us have.
GOOD.FOR.YOU!
I do have to say I feel bad for Dave's parents none of their 3 kids have produced grandchildren, and I think they are sorely disappointed on that score.
I will say that people who haven't had children and who aren't in the throes of a glowing luuuuuv can sometimes, sometimes see the truth of a child manipulating that his parents can't see. If people can't keep their kids from running around at a restaurant--can't at least TRY--then they shouldn't take their kids to a restaurant that isn't child-themed. Wait until the kid matures. It is also hard on the restaurant staff, as I have been a waitress and gotten complaints from other customers that I could do nothing about. I don't believe in kids being beaten, of course, BUT many people today are too lax. I know there were always these types of parents, but I swear we are seeing a trend that has even infected schools where poor little Billy can't be told what to do. I know teachers who have had to apologize simply for telling a kid to be quiet in the hall.
I am glad you got your tubes tied, so that you didn't have a child you didn't want.
Now the part I don't agree with. You have chosen not to have children in your house, or have anything to do with family members who haven't finished elementary school. That's fine. But you can't eliminate all children from public places, or insist that children who whine or cry (in other words, all children, sometimes) be locked up in the house so they don't offend your delicate sensibilities.
Most of us try not to take our kids places where grownups will be upset if they misbehave, like that expensive romantic French restaurant. You're totally justified in getting angry with parents who ruin your grownup-only experience by doing that. But an airplane is not a bar. I am infuriated every time I hear people without kids complain about some child on an airplane. You don't have a right to a child-free experience on a plane. Nor do you have the right to a child-free experience on a bus, or in the supermarket, or in a chain restaurant.
You're justified in being upset with parents who don't try to rein in their kids; but if they try, if they beg, plead, and threaten, and it comes to naught, will you try to give us a pass? I swear, we're not enjoying it any more than you are. If we could wave a wand and make it stop, we would.
mlevie - I think you missed the part where I said I am not a child hater. I'm not looking for a child free world to live in. What I would like is to have the children around me be well behaved, which I don't think is really too much to ask. In generations gone by children didn't act up and behave nearly as rudely as a number of children do today - and I think that's down to parenting styles and changes in our society - and I don't think that all of those changes have been for the better. Like I said, it's not all the children all the time or all the parents all the time.
I never wanted to have children. At Thanksgiving; "So, when are you going to have one?" Me: "I think S &L are doing a bang up job in that department, and I'm the only candidate for crazy Auntie!" And on and on. (that doesn't happen much anymore, because I'm old.)
I feel like writing a post length response on how much I agree with you, but I'll leave it at : Thank You for saying it so wittily and so well!
And xoxo to you, Cindy Ross, that was very sweet.
I loved this piece. Truly honesty, well thought out and expressed with such clarity, is rare. You make my favorites list for this one. Well done, surly one!
I greatly appreciate you taking the time to craft a very, very impassioned, articulate, intimate response to my li'll ole post. I completely respect your life-choices and do not feel you owe this readership or anyone an explanation for them; to bear or not to bear (har pun intended) is a personal decision, a very complicated, personal decision. Period. End.
I am truly sorry if you suffered scorn at the hands of those with nimble fingers and narrow or unaware minds. That was never my intention. To inspire healthy and productive discourse is always a good thing; to use any forum as a platform for maliciousness or petty grievance is, to quote the Fonze: not cool.
Thanks again Surly!
Once when my now-24-yr-old was about 8 months we were on a flight and the airline in their infinite wisdom put us in the middle seat. The man one my right had on a short-sleeved shirt and very hairy arms and my baby kept pulling at his arm hair -- I shifted her to the other side and she spilled the woman's ice water -- we were ALL glad it wasn't a long flight. Several years later I sat next to a dad and his five year old and played some card game that the five year old made up for three hours... the dad was extremely grateful, but I knew I was just trying to get back good karma from the other flight. :)
Jamie - Thank you.
DktrShe - I appreciate you taking the time to read and comment. Like I said you and I agree on a number of the points in your post - and I would in no way, shape or form ever hold you accountable for the snippy comments made by another on your post. Thanks again.
mginmn - It's all about the karma in the end :)
Most parents do not dine out, go to movies or fly on airplanes. In fact, most parents are lucky to find time to shower and clip their toe nails absent the services of a nanny. It's just the inconsiderate few who take their tots to places that aren't family friendly.
Unfortunately, some us have to buy groceries from time to time and do not have an on call sitter or full service delivery company. Then we have to tote our tots to the supermarket and sometimes nice folks like you bear witness to the tantrums of our youngsters. It's right about then that our mortification and embarrassment make us wish, ever so much, that we had used birth control, because we're doing our best to enjoy the privilege of raising nice, well mannered kids who will someday pay for your public pension and sometimes our efforts just don't seem to be paying off.
Most women don't breastfeed in public. The vast majority of those who do are discreet. Again, its only a small minority that make a scene of providing maternal sustenance. It you don't like it, don't look at it.
Good post. Rated.
Over the past decades, as I have pondered all the pros and cons, the whys and why-nots of the procreation question, all the reasons in the propagation column eventually broke down to selfishness. That's what makes it ironically amusing when the child-bearing hurl the admonition, "Well, that's just the most selfish thing I've ever heard."
An old friend who has become alarmingly right wing in the decades since we hung out regularly recently told me, "You know, you never realize how self-centered you are until you have a kid. I can remember after my daughter was born and laying there for hours with her on my chest just staring at her and thinking about that."
Aside from the insult he felt so free in flinging my way under the guise of "parental love," all he did was admit his own myopia and shortcomings. I just listened, realizing the futility of discussing oxytocin, genetic conceit and the overwhelming intricacies and power of natural selection. It wouldn't matter to his rationalization.
If someone has adopted a child, I'll abide by every word about their altruistic parentage. But with the normal route, what you're doing is creating another strain on an already overburdened ecosphere and a world where most every problem facing mankind in all realms can be traced back to overpopulation.
Across cultures and beliefs, the path to enlightenment is always marked by the shedding of ego. Bearing children, with so many folks, seems to be little more than an extension of those egos.
Rated.
First, what is it with your family and NAMES????
I am also CBC. I dismembered my dolls (though I first peeked to see if they were anatomically correct) and floated their headless bodies down the creeks like little rafts. I'm with you 200%.
This was so well stated and stylish, it's obvious to me that your brain was meant for service to mankind of a different nature. But we'll just keep that our little secret.
((ring!!)) == that's the sound of you being rated!
p.s. I think pregnant women are hot.
How can you tell the child-free from the child-laden? Guess who is driving the hybrid and who's driving the mega-gas-guzzling, polluting, uber-SUV? Guess who recycles and conserves water, and who fills up the enormous backyard kiddie pool every other day instead of taking the kids to the Y? Guess who donates a sizeable amount of time and money to multiple charities, some of them for kids and I DON'T EVEN HAVE KIDS? Now guess who my in-laws think is selfish because I don't want to babysit and prefer to spend my free time traveling?
Because I work with children and have an ECE degree (as well as lots of quality Aunting experience) I tend to feel confident interacting with children in public. Yes, I do, gently, correct their behavior sometimes (if a child is sitting next to me on the subway, and kicks or elbows me, I will say, "That hurt! Please watch where your arms and legs are going when you're sitting on the train." (I have never had a child get upset by that. Parents, on the other hand, will give the occasional dirty look.) Of course, I am also one who will help any child I see, who falls down or drops a toy. The other day, I helped a little girl off the bus because her Mom's hands were full (of stroller, diaper bag and other parent paraphernalia.) Most adults, these days, are also scared to intervene in positive ways.
I don't know where I'm going with this so will stop now but anyway...rated!
Friends with their own kids, who know me well enough to know that I could reproduce if I wanted to will, sometimes say things like "You are smart and blah, blah, and you are the type who should be having kids." So on top of everything else I have a responsibility to populate the earth as a form of compensation for the breeders who are less qualified to be having kids? Oh dear. Before I continue my own rant, let me just say thank you again Surly. It's time for another coffee.
I too am child-free by choice. Aunt Mabel says that most parents don't go out to dinner or movies or fly. That may be. Who knows the statistics? But those who do, don't seem to worry about the behavior of their offspring. In a store, they are rarely embarrassed. At least they do not seem to be embarrassed. I work in a store and have done so for the past 30 years. I have been witness to it time and time again. Probably depends on how they (the parents) were raised, I imagine. Most of them don't care at all. They let kids tear the store apart. Not *all* of them. But many of them.
Rated.
However, I can relate to some of your frustration. I went to a movie once where an infant screamed throughout the entire film until I finally went to the manager so I could hear the last half hour of the movie. When the couple with the screaming child were asked to take him out, the male half of the pair yelled, "F-k all of you!"
I yelled back, "Next time get a f-ing babysister, asshole!" I don't usually curse in public places and especially not in front of my nephew who was with his mother and me at the movies. But some people's rudeness in public places is unacceptable.
I agree about breastfeeding in public, which is kind of like giving yourself an insulin shot while people are eating: it's something that is necessary, but it's the wrong time and place to do it.
Thanks for standing up for those of us who are childless and prefer at times to be with adults only and not have to be imposed upon by unruly and untrained children, regardless of whose they are.
Kevin Lee - I'm with you on adoption. I have to say that I don't honestly understand why more people don't adopt. So much money is spent on fertility programs and there is so much brouhaha about what to do with unfertilized eggs or unused embryos when there are thousands of children languishing in orphanages and foster care.
BarkingLot - you should see what I did to Barbie!
Robin - I'm sorry, I can't imagine the pain of wanting and loss.
Zookeeper - child-laden - I like that, can I borrow it?
Eva - You are braver than I. I have, on more than one occasion, tried to help a lost child in a store only to be screamed at by the parent who was too busy shopping to keep an eye on their kid. Really, I don't see why more parents don't use a leash.
Bob - I'm always really clear, from the first "Do you have kids?" that I don't want them. I tell total strangers - "I don't have maternal instincts for human children and I'm sterilized." I'm so abrupt that I think it really throws them for a loop ;)
I won't hiss at you if you won't hiss at me. :)
I am also startled how many of my favorite people here are not parents. Hmmmmmmm.
Another incident was on a 5 hour flight from Toronto to Vancouver where a man, working on his computer and sitting across the aisle from me with his wife and kids, leaned across to me to request that I ask my 11 month old daughter to "do less crying and more laughing". With a "what the fuck are you talking about" undertone I explained that it was unlikely she would comply. So, that is to say parents can be equally intolerant of other parents and their children.
At the end of the day, I think some empathy goes a long way and also believe it takes a village.