iamsurly

iamsurly
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October 22
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ex-heiress
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Charming young lady, with sharp tongue and vocabulary of a seasoned longshoreman, who carries in her handbag worn and tattered membership cards to the Mayflower Society and Daughters of the American Revolution, for which her dues are in arrears.

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FEBRUARY 10, 2010 11:31PM

From the Realm Of Things I Do Not Understand: Reproduction

Rate: 46 Flag

Well, here I go again.  I'm gonna say some things that will, undoubtedly, be wildly unpopular.  Go figure.

Last night I was doing that thing you do at the market, when you're really only there to pick up wine, but the store is so huge that you feel compelled to wander from aisle to aisle and pick up a few "essentials."  I got to the check-out counter and was immediately sidetracked, again, by the magazines on the rack.  They do that on purpose.  Remember when they tried to hide them at the check-out because all of us reading them resulted in the death of Princess Diana?  Well I guess we've made amends with ourselves over that one.  Anyway, there on the cover of People are the Duggars, talking about having more children, again.

 

how_many_too_many-255x340

The People  article asks the question: How many kids are too many? That the question has to be asked troubles me immensely. Sure, these are nice Christian people with good family values that are bringing up well mannered children.  But seriously? Most people have their hands full with one or two, let alone nineteen.  And to what end are they reproducing in volume?  We're not running short of people in this country, not by a long shot. Christianity still has a 33% stake in the world's religious adherents, so they can't be trying to fill a quota. Apparently they have no plans of stopping anytime soon, at least not until Michelle's uterus gives out from sheer exhaustion. Some medical professional needs to show her a photo of what a prolapsed uterus looks like.  (FYI the record, set in the 18th century by Feodor Vassilyev, is 69 births from 27 pregnancies, if you're wondering.)

The one thing that I will give the Duggars is that they are reproducing on an epic scale naturally.  This is as opposed to the likes of Jon and Kate Gosselin and Nadya Suleman who use in vitro fertilization to produce large families in one fell swoop. The one thing that ALL of these families have in common, besides a lot of laundry and incredibly large grocery bills, is that they all have television shows, either in production or in the works, that pay them enough, if not more than enough, to house, feed, provide medical care, and educate these familial hordes. Someone's gotta pay those bills, and I'm here to tell you I'm not interested in having them on welfare and using my tax dollars.

(Here's the part where I say another wildly unpopular thing, so pay attention if you're going to quote me at the heresy trial.) 

I'll fess up to the fact that I don't have a single maternal instinct towards human children.  No burning desire to procreate.  Never have, never will. So, no, I don't fully understand this pressing human desire to produce one's own offspring.  I'm sure it is horribly disappointing, if not abjectly depressing, to try and fail or worse yet, to try and miscarry.  I'm not unsympathetic, just unempathetic.

Ergo, I don't understand this compelling need to spends thousands upon thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars on artificial methods of fertilization when there are, at least, a half a million children in foster care in the United States.  Not to mention the millions (yeah I said millions) of children who are currently bearing the status of orphan worldwide. And folks, don't be fooled, being an orphan ain't all Oliver Twist and porridge.  In some parts of the world surviving an orphanage is akin to surviving a detainment camp. There are countries where for fiscal or state sanctioned family planning  they dump their female offspring into orphanages because they are less desirable and more costly than their male counterparts.  And rather than give these poor children a loving home, people in the "civilized world" pour everything they have into trying to create an army bearing their genetic code - or half of theirs and half of the egg donor they found on Craig's List.

It just  makes me want to scream "What the hell is wrong with adoption?"  You want a child so damn desperately?  Go adopt or foster one of the millions of children worldwide who have no homes and no love.  You want an army of children, adopt a tribe or whole village of children orphaned by AIDS, war, or earthquakes.  We mock the celebrities like Madonna, Angelina, and Meg Ryan for shopping outside of the US for children like they are counterfeit Prada handbags, and yes, it would be nice if they shopped for kids at home. As I understand it there are approximately 250,000 children in the US that are eligible for adoption but are considered racially less desirable and so they languish in the system until they age out or run away. At  least our celebrity role models are adopting from the ever growing pool of unwanted and unloved children that populate this planet; and not growing them in test tubes or RVs that they have confused with Noah's Arc.

 

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I don't get the whole lots o' kids thing either. It strikes me as incredibly selfish and narcissistic. I mean, I'd like a HORDE of people to do all of my chores, but, frankly, having to raise them? No thanks!
As an adopted mite...YES! I'm also one of those who profess not to like children (except the two I birthed) because I'm too wordly and cynical. Yet, every child I meet is rather fascinating, if only because, for some reason, they like me.
The Duggers baffle me. I find children fascinating, like watching fungus grow in a petri dish.
Brava , surly - brava.
You nail it. Remember the litter of 8 spawned by goodwrench mechanic and his bible quoting bride? They had done the fertility thing and then when the doctors wanted to "cull" a few based on overdosing, the woman declined calling it God's Will.

God's Will my pasty, heretical middle aged saggy white ass. God's Will was those nitwits NOT be allowed to procreate. There is such a thing as couple infertility which is nature's way of saying, "ummm ... no. Just ... no."

So they have the turkey baster 8 pack. The neo natal ICU bill for the first two months of their lives was in excess of $1M. That's right. A million bucks for the first two months for an elective procedure for which "We the people" pick up the tab through our insurance expense.

That buys a lot of child immunizations.

Oh right, but the bible belt doesn't want satan's agents innoculating their dumplings against such things anyway. So make more to toss into the minivan and take to church. Any luck and you can populate your own church pew.

Yeah. I got a few strong opinions on this one ...
I thought the Duggars were an oppressed minority group in China.

R
I love the (perhaps apocryphal) story of Groucho in his You Bet Your Life TV show had a contestant on the show who had over a dozen children. In response to Marx asking in disbelief why she had so many children, the contestant replied "I love my husband," to which Marx replied, "I love my cigar too, but I take it out once in a while."

I'm with you surly...they should have heeded the advice of Bob Barker long ago.
I don't get it. I can barely keep up with my two boys I can't fathom 19, adopted, test tubed, or natural. We live in a nutty world.
I'm the 2nd of 6 brothers. I have 54 1st cousins, almost all younger than I. I had all the raising kids I ever wanted while I was growing up.

Still, my brothers and cousins are the people I know I can always count on, no matter what-
even if some of them turned out "Liberals"

Family is a good thing- I totally agree other people should adopt the children who are here.

I'm more comfortable as the Uncle who teaches them vice.
while i cant imagine raising this many children (yikes!) and i do understand the emotional negative reactions & claims of narcissism.

but i cant help but remind myself that i support a womans right to chose what she does with her uterus when it comes to abortion, so i must i support this sort of choice too.
*sigh*... consistency is a bitch.
I have less of a problem with people like the Duggars than I do with people who have kids and then can't or won't look after them, leaving them to wallow in abuse and neglect. Like you say, the Duggar kids (from what I've seen which isn't much) seem to be happy, well-mannered, etc.

I'm not really a fan of other people's children and I'd gouge my eyes out with a screwdriver before I had 19 of my own, but I respect the Duggars for the good parents they seem to be. It's harder than it looks with one or two, so kudos to them for doing a great job with what will probably turn out to be a couple of dozen.
Lorianne, that's a really good point. I hadn't thought of that.
I totally agree, surly. It's like they are breeding their own cult. The last one was premature and they "might" have more? Shouldn't some sort of alarm go off that maybe they have enough? Plus, it makes my vagina hurt just thinking about it.
Oh Surly, I have such a mad girl crush on you. I just love the way you write.

1. I'm really surprised no one has yet to crack a joke on here about hot dogs and hallways. Bravo to the maturity of the OS audience.

2. I'm sorry, but continuing to have children when you already have a, uh Quiverfull -- or whatever Biblical label hyperactive Christian reproductionists are calling it these days -- when it might potentially risk the health of that future child is amoral and should not be condoned, or given the cover of People.

Isn't Heidi Montag doing something outlandish this week?
The Duggars are creepy. They are part of the Quiverfull movement here in the United States, and it is very reminiscent of the Catholic Church. The Duggars are able to pay for these kids with the television show and jimmy bob's business (I guess) but, make no mistake about it, the older daughters have been raising the babies for many years.

It's all very weird but apparently this Quiverfull (born again saved too) movement is big in their area (Arkansas) of the country. I can only imagine the state of this poor woman's uterus and bladder, and I let's not even mention the other.

19?

Get a grip. What an asshole that husband is.
And by amoral I meant "immoral".

I've had three beers tonight.
Oh, I meant to say this was on my mind since earlier today when I saw that cover in the checkout line at Rite Aid (where I was also buying wine!).
Right on, Surly! I've never gotten why every goddamn EGG is so special when MILLIONS of sperm are just WASTED day after day.....

Rated!
i agree, surly. it's not that anyone is advocating that these people (or ones like them) should be forced to stop having kids. it's whether it makes sense for them to have so many and to plan to have more.

i'm too lazy to look up what daddy duggar did before they had the last few, but i'm guessing he's supporting the gang *now* on the $$ from the reality show. which might be an incentive to procreate they're not listing up there with "because god said we ought to."

besides the fact that they just creep me out. julie's right: they're breeding a cult. great reason to have kids, right? feh.
"I can only imagine the state of this poor woman's uterus and bladder, and I let's not even mention the other."

yes, maybe she doesn't even know her husband's in there getting her pregnant again.
19 is like, way too many, sorry. My mom's side of the family tree had lots of children, but a)farming life, you wanted as many hands to farm and well b)sadly, the mortality rate was, well, a few of the children didn't make it to the first birthday so...

I wouldn't mind 1 child, but the Good Lord(Thor Asse) has decided I will not be a father to any(any I will claim as mine that is!! WOOO!!)

Also, why do we have to have a billion of these shows on TV? Can't people stop watching them and therefore maybe the shows will drop off the damn screen. STOP WATCHING THEM PEOPLE, STOP READING ABOUT THEM, AND FOR GOD SAKE WOMAN CLOSE YOUR LEGS FOR AWHILE AND TELL HUBBY THE WOMB IS CLOSED FOR REMODELING!!!

Thank you and good night.
Bingo.

I can understand the desire to have children, even though I didn't have any myself. I understand even better the people who stop at one or two of them. The world does not need mega families.

My idea of hell is one or more screaming babies keeping me up all night. I have sympathy for those who end up with fussy twins or triplets. People who deliberately have a litter of children deserve all the sleep deprivation that's coming to them with caring for six or seven little howling diaper poopers at once. Nobody else could sin egregiously enough to deserve that.

Well okay. Maybe the Taliban, but what sort of parents would they be?

Maybe this couple wants lots of kids so they can end up in a better retirement home, bought for the pooled income of nineteen children?
I think Salon published a book about folks who never wanted kids, others on the fence, and others who wanted them via adoption or birth etc. I don't remember the name, but sure you can find out here because you are so not alone.

I wanted a baby only when I was finally with a man I thought would make a great dad but the clock stopped clicking and we had too many miscarriages. Often and I do not know why this is, the men are more interested in birth children; women I can't generalize about. But

I want to say this, never having heard of the Duggards, I know I live on a far distant planet--but in all the adoption triad literature it is said, I believe almost without exception, that adoptive parents have to grieve the loss of bio kids. I did not find that to be in any way true. And if I were younger I would adopt again. And again. The only thing I have to add is that having ONE only child, which is very common now, is really hard on the kid not to mention the parent, should he or she be single. So I'm for 2 kids, wish someone had told me this earlier. Good article. Rated.
I hear ya'. I've read about the quiverfulls, and although I don't want any say over anyone else's reproduction, it makes me nervous . . . I suppose it's one way to try to ensure that your values become the majority.

On the other hand, my Grandad was one of 16 kids, 14 of whom lived to adulthood. And no - the family was not Catholic.
I have one birth child and one adopted child, and both want to be parents (and will make great parents) to ADOPTED children.

Guess I did at least two things right.....

These greedy skeeves make me vomit.
Rated for the use of the phrase "one fell swoop." BTW: I'll be serving Fell Swoops at the wrap party tomorrow evening.

On a serious note: I've noted before the statistic that 10,000 children in this world die of starvation every day. The numbers are almost unimaginable, but they are real. Why do we allow this to continue?
Excellent article. I was vehemently anti-children in my twenties, looked askance at them during most of my thirties. I remember wearing a t-shirt with a Roy Lichtenstein cartoon of a woman crying and the balloon caption said, "Oh my god, I forgot to have children." I thought it was hilarious. Then, I met my husband and found myself longingly staring at babies in the checkout at the supermarket, panicking that I had waited too long. Logical? No. All-too-typical? Apparently, yes. I now have 2 teenagers. It's not for everyone. I've often said if someone had presented me with a contract beforehand, spelling out exactly what was involved and what my obligations would be, I never would have signed! Parenthood is most definitely not for everyone. The Duggars, however, are another breed entirely. tee-hee....
I understand where you're coming from. Really I do. The Duggars push every single button I have.

But, you've never wanted children. You don't know what it's like. So, if you want, read this (especially #2) and please don't judge.

Rated, for honesty and passion, though.
It has everything to do with their fundamentalist belief system. Simple as that.

They believe that staunch believers, or the Elect, have a duty to "Go forth and multiply" and in so doing, indoctrinate their many offspring, who hopefully will outnumber the heathens also pro-creating in wild numbers.

Their hopes are: that their little multitudes will procreate at the same rate, teaching their children to do the same, ad infinitum:

"Teach your children the way that they should go and they will not depart from it." Ergo, eccentricism breeds and multiplies in mathematical and geometric progression, if nothing else.

My comment does not come from snark, but from what I've heard far-right conservative literalists 'preach' in my own family.

I only have one child, and he is being taught the opposite, so I think I must be a heathe[r]n...

I could be wrong, though. Maybe Mommy & Daddy are Pregnant Sex Addicts? Dunno.
Ridiculously large families like the Duggars are not truly practical, and unless we are all overtaken by the crazies, it's not likely to happen in huge numbers, except perhaps among certain religious groups. So, it's not something to stress about long term.

To the other thing ... IVF, etc. I'm determined not to judge that. Yes, adoption seems like a brilliant option, but just as any other thing, it is not for everyone. Some people make terrific parents, period. Some people make fantastic adoptive parents. Some people do not make good adoptive parents but do well with a biological child. This is a subject about which I just cannot pull out generalizations and grand sweeping statements. I've never been there. I just don't know. My child was easily conceived, even though I was past 40. So, I can't say what it might be like otherwise.
Well, if BlueRoses is right, someone really should pass along this research to them:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14543-bisexuality-passed-on-by-hyperheterosexuals-.html
You left out the part about how the last kid almost killed the Mom and the baby herself is not 100% going to make it because she was so premature. If the mom dies giving birth, who takes care of the kids?

Oh, that's right, the siblings who already are.

They're a danger to themselves and their children if they recklessly defy medical problems to continue adding to their brood.
I love children, but if I never have any of my own, that's really okay. I have plenty of friends who are in a huge hurry to procreate and there will no doubt be multiple "nieces" and "nephews" for me to love.
Thank you, lorianne, for pointing out something which has long bothered me - that those who most loudly proclaim their commitment to a woman's reproductive choices are often those who most loudly sit in judgment of those who make a choice that is not in agreement with their personal viewpoints.
I don't "get" the Duggars, and she must have a cast-iron uterus (mine was blown after a mere 4 babies ), but the children are obviously loved, taken care of, and turning into productive members of society. By all means, don't watch their show or buy that magazine, but other than that I don't understand being judgmental.
A guy at the other end of the office and his wife literally went to Siberia last year to adopt a 10-year old orphan. After the asteriod hits and 95% of the human species is wiped out, then and only then will I applaude the Duggars.
As an adoptee and someone who can't procreate at will, artificial means of getting pregnant when there are so many kids in need is just something I can't do. But, adopting a child from the system in the US can be pretty daunting and difficult. We desperately need to reform the process so that the families that want to adopt children can adopt them more easily without having to run a gauntlet of ever-changing case workers, inconsistent family court judges and paperwork barricades. The first goal of foster care is always, always to unite the natural family. But one thing I don't think the system does well is determining exactly when, realistically, to let a child move on.
So gross to me on so many levels, it really appears to be an exercise in psychotic selfish behavior on both the parents' (and the publicity agents!) parts. How in the heck do you provide adequate love and attention to that many children?! I'm baffled.
Thanks y'all for readin'... and for some very interesting comments- and some very personal and heartfelt insights.
@ Kasey - I'd bet next week's check that I'm right. All you have to do is ask them a few key questions, let 'em talk long enough, and you'll hear almost verbatim what I've said.
AMEN!

What do you want to bet that the Duggar parents aren't raising the children, the children are raising each other.
I agree wholeheartedly and find it incredibly egotistical and selfish of "parents" like the Duggars pulling shenanigans at the expense of the children who will likely not get the nurturing and simple attention they need because there won't be enough to go around. It's not the 1900's when the kids were needed to help work on the farms and even then it was freaking' crazy. Rated.
If you're like many people, including me, you might not really understand the whole issue of kids until you have some. Before my first son was born-- even in the minutes leading up to his birth-- I was like "ho-hum" and extremely ambivalent about the whole thing. And then the nurse put him in my hands and my whole universe changed-- it narrowed and focused on the little person nestled in my hands-- and from that moment forward, I get it completely.
I think it's stupid, but, to be fair, I can't say I'm pro-choice then turn around and say that Michelle (What? A Duggar whose name doesn't begin with "J"?) Duggar can't turn her vagina into a clown car. That would be as hypocritical as being anti-abortion and pro-capital punishment.

However, I DO take issue with people like the Gosselins, the McCaugheys (remember them?) and the Octomom, who jump through all kinds of medical hoops to end up farrowing a litter and then billing and cooing over the whole thing being "god's will". Over and over again, we see human intervention being reinterpreted along religious lines. I agree with Gwool - infertility is nature's way of saying "the gene pool stops here".

Look at it another way, from a situation at the opposite end of life - just imagine that god is pissed at all those people who kept Terry Schiavo alive long after she was called to the hereafter.
"Duggar". It's a whole new insult.