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Jeanette DeMain

Jeanette DeMain
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January 01
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JANUARY 6, 2011 9:09AM

Don't Ask Don't Tell (For Atheists)

Rate: 67 Flag

Not for a moment am I saying that I have had to endure anything close to the bigotry and discrimination directed at gay people, but as a non-believer living in the Bible Belt, I think I have developed a pretty good understanding of what it means to have to hide a part of my identity.

A couple of weeks ago, as most of my fellow employees were preparing to go their separate ways for the Christmas and New Year holidays, a general email went out proposing a get-together on a certain date.  I figured that the shock I felt at the thought that co-workers couldn't get through a whole week without seeing each other would be the extent of it.  But imagine my surprise when someone, hitting "Reply All", wrote that she couldn't be there on the day in question because she was going to be visiting the Creation Museum.

What really impressed me about this was the level of comfort this individual felt in making such an announcement.  Her action clearly indicated that, in this area of the country and in this particular workplace, this news would not be greeted with incredulity or ridicule.  It would, in fact, be accepted as normal and probably even desirable. So, in a way, being a fundamentalist Christian here is the equivalent of being heterosexual here.  You can speak freely about visiting the Creation Museum, just as you can speak freely about how you met your spouse, because such activities fall within the accepted norm.  And I have absolutely no problem with that.  That's the way it should be for everyone.

But then I thought about the reaction if I had replied to the email by saying that I would be unavailable because I would be attending the National Atheist Convention.  Shock?  Disgust?  Anger?  Pity?  Prayers for my eternally-damned soul?  In other words, being an atheist here is virtually the equivalent of being homosexual here.  You cannot speak freely about it, just as you could not speak freely about your same-sex partner.  These things are outside the mainstream and are looked upon with suspicion, distaste and hostility.

There is even a provision in the Constitution of the State of Tennessee (as well as six other states), prohibiting atheists from holding public office.  Article IX, Section 2, states:  "No person who denies the being of God , or a future state of rewards and punishments shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."

Of course, such a provision could easily be challenged were it enforced.  But the problem is that there will never be a need to enforce it or challenge it because no out and open atheist would ever receive enough votes to hold any office in the civil department of this state.  Just about every piece of campaign literature I've ever seen here makes it a point to highlight the religious affiliation of the candidate and television commercials often feature scenes of the candidate in church or testimonials from friends confirming that the candidate is a person of deep faith.  (That candidate was Zach Wamp.  I'm pretty miffed that an atheist can't be Governor of Tennessee, but that a guy named Zach Wamp apparently can.)

I'm actually surprised that I ended up this way.  I was raised in the Catholic church, attended Catholic schools for twelve years, and believed as devoutly as possible.  My loss of faith is not something that happened all at once, and it is not something I arrived at casually or frivolously.  I'm not rebelling against anything.  Personal tragedy didn't harden my heart.  I can sing all the parts in Jesus Christ Superstar.  It is simply a way of thinking that developed over time and I am neither proud of it nor ashamed of it.  It simply is what it is, a part of who I am now.  Although the word "atheist" has many connotations, I take its meaning literally:  without god.  The concept of god, or god as a being, is not a part of my life.

I generally do not ridicule others for their religious beliefs, although I do think that the Creation Museum is a little hokey, and a recent story about the rapidly approaching end of the world (May 21, 2011 - save the date!) had me marveling at the propensity of some people to be taken in once again by a huckster who incorrectly predicted the end of the world in 1994.  I sometimes think that my lack of faith means that I don't have enough imagination - that I'm simply not creative enough to believe in something I can't see.  And despite what I wrote earlier, I have absolutely no desire to attend a convention of atheists.  (Honestly, can you imagine anything more lame than hanging out with a bunch of atheists?)  I don't wish to associate myself with any kind of group or movement.  My non-belief is a completely personal issue and I don't feel the need to "convert" others.

Still, it troubles me to know that many of my co-workers and even some members of my own family might think less of me if I were to "out" myself as an atheist.  They might see me as less moral and less compassionate, and they might condemn me to an eternity of suffering.  (Well, they wouldn't condemn me personally, but the god they believe in wouldn't hesitate.)

But my non-belief doesn't prevent me from experiencing mystery and awe.  Because I think that just about everything is random, including the fact that we are here at all, I am filled with gratitude and a true sense of wonder at the beauty that surrounds me.  The ugliness too.  It's all a part of the same glorious and fascinating drama.  And because I don't believe that I was created in the image of a god and don't profess to have the answer to attaining eternal life (in fact, I don't really feel the need for eternal life), I try to have a sense of humility about my place in the world.  I am no better than anyone else; however, I am also certainly no worse.

But I fear that anything I say would be lost in translation.  It's so hard to get beyond that "A" word.  People think that atheists are communists or libertines, that we're angry and want to destroy religion, and that we're card-carrying ACLU members.  OK, that last one is true in my case.

And so I mostly subscribe to the "don't tell" philosophy when it comes to being an atheist.  It's the "don't ask" part that sometimes proves difficult.  Being asked what church you attend is almost a given when meeting someone new. That it is assumed that you go to church and want to talk about it is an indication of how deeply abnormal it is to feel otherwise.

I really don't want to lie about it, because I think that lying is wrong (even without believing in god).  So if you're going to ask, you had better be prepared to hear my honest answer.

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Well, I just found this article on Yahoo, in which the Pope says that God was behind the Big Bang, and that the universe is no accident. Obviously, I am being punished for writing this post.
I loved this. Please tell me what those other five states are so I make sure I never end up in any of them.
Patricia, those other states are Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas and North Carolina. N0 big surprises there, except for Maryland, and I think that provision may have been overturned recently.
The poor will always be with us, right beside the stupid.
I can only hope I am never 'saved'. Only saved from them.
You've articulated something here that has been clanging around in my head for awhile. Very well said Jeanette. I don't know that 'raise up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it' is entirely correct, but in general, I share a similar church-going upbringing and would consider myself a moral, decent person; however, I am far from acceptance of the religiousity I was taught as a child growing up. I don't make a point of discussing it, but the fact that I don't attend church, and that I've been known to enjoy a good curse and a drink now and then condemns me in the eyes of family who have stayed on the narrow road. Funny you should reference DADT~ so true!
I had NO idea there were laws like this! But I'm not surprised, of course. Einstein, Sagan et al often opined that there might be some sort of Supreme Something behind it all, but it was speculation and wonderment at the things they'd discovered. The idea of intelligent discourse about all this is one thing. Being forced by law to believe in ANYTHING is quite another--and appalling!
Check out Music Row Democrats, they are a little less scary.
Jeanette, I enjoyed your post and I have had similar experiences ever since I began asking questions which made my Sunday school teachers uncomfortable when I was forced to go to church, Southern Baptist, by my mom here in Texas. I finally decided I was an atheist when I was praying and found I was talking to myself!
@ Dick, I believe the Christ was reported to have said he (God) abides within us, and I'm a talking fool when it comes to conversations with myself. When asked who I'm talking to I give my grandmother's answer, 'My best friend'.
i likes very much...i have been dealing with the same silly *#$t since i was a 12 yr old agnostic, forced to not only go to church, but sing in the choir. my views on spirituality have changed...but my views on religious intolerance never will.
The Creation Museum? Really? Now I'm going to spend all day trying to figure out who it was.
People who have never lived in the Bible Belt don't realize how abusive and oppressive it's become there. It's awful. Anyone with a glimmer of intelligence, inquisitiveness, or genuine curiosity, is shunned like a witch in Salem. Not today's Salem, mind you, they really sell that stuff there now.
Rated.
"A" is our scarlet letter.
At 45 as an Atlanta native, I don't care anymore what people think about my lack of religious beliefs, as I don't care about theirs, as long as they aren't legislating them or forcing their fictions on public schools.

There really is no reason to have atheist groups, other than to create some other hellish (Hell-less?) hierarchy similar to churches, that eventually grow large and lose touch with their original purpose, hence my recent departure from the American Humanist Association because of the influx of loud-mouthed "new" Atheists who feel compelled to belittle all the poor common, uneducated masses who believe in God.

It's okay to be a believer or non-believer, but there's no need to shout down the other camp for not being on your side. Get over it and get on with your own life - that's all any of us have to do.
I had no idea that you could be banned from office. So much for separation of church and government.
Tell me about it. I don't care if they believe what ever they wish. Personally I can't simply say what I believe since it is an absence of belief in any deity. The rural Midwest is a place where there seems to be no end of duality on the part of the believers. They drink, do drugs, steal each others spouses, steal, lie, and cheat. Tell them that you do not believe in god and the sinners are right there with the saints in condemning you for it. As though the failure to do so is worse than any crime that those others may have committed against man and their own god.
My experience with Catholicism, including many years at Catholic school, is identical to yours...it naturally and gently faded from my radar after awhile. I didn't think about it much, until I landed in the South, and saw all the steeples. Fortunately, my immediate surroundings are in SE Florida, where, as we always say, you have to go north to be in the South (not far north, though). I'd like to think that being an atheist is as mild as it gets for me, but I have deep-seated biases around fundamentalists that lead me to automatically suspect them of all manner of things...it's not easy to admit.
*chuckle*....amazing how many of us with Catholic backgrounds are relating to this. I don't NOT believe in a higher power--I just wouldn't know what to call it or how to describe it, except for what works for me personally. And that's all that's necessary. And when asked..my "church" is the great and beautiful outdoors. Thanks!
I had never heard of the Creation Museum until reading the book Idiot America this past summer. Needless to say I was dumbfounded that this place even exists, not to mention it gets as many visitors as it does! Adam and Eve mannequins cavorting with animatronic Brachiosaurs? "Scientific proof" of the proposed 6,000-year age of fossils? Holy. Effing. Crap. Personally I think it should be illegal to bring anyone under the age of 13 in there. Not only is it silly, it's just plain WRONG. I wouldn't think you'd even have to have a disbelief in any god to feel that. But yet I have gotten into arguments with creationists over these very things, and it's surprisingly difficult to actually debate the issue due to its inherent silliness. It's like trying to hold a serious debate over the existence of Santa Claus and his Arctic toy enterprise.

I do understand your situation though...an ex-Catholic from New England now living in Texas, there was a bit of a culture shock regarding religious beliefs and what's considered acceptable in polite conversation.
Thanks, everyone for such a great discussion, and for so much support! Each and every one of you has made me feel better about this.

I have to admit that I was nervous while writing it, I was nervous when I clicked on "Publish", and I'm nervous now that it's on the front page (and linkable from Salon), and that people are posting it to Facebook. I guess it still feels like a dirty little secret to me, but I have to get over that.
I found this post most interesting. If you don't have it already, may I recommend, "The Atheist's Bible." My husband is reading it and is finding it wonderful. -R-
What's scary about this post is that you can see a lot of this attitude now portrayed in the mainstream media and by a lot of the politicians in charge. I took my son, niece, and nephew to the Smithsonian where we saw the movie on evolution in the Museum of Natural History, and was sad to learn that some big donors wanted the information finessed somehow to include creationism, so it's not just the bible belt.

But I do feel for you having it in so concentrated an area as your work place. I live in Oregon and there are people who preach on the trains and stuff, but I have no compunction about telling them I'm an atheist and not interested. OTOH, I do go to a Lutheran Church here for a sense of community. The people are very nice.

BTW, JCSS had some very catchy tunes. I remember it well.

I loved when Stephen Colbert had that bible belt someone or other on his show and asked him to name the 10 commandments. He couldn't do it. I think many Catholics--myself included--are lapsed. This is a good post, and I would also be alarmed to know I was working with someone who frequented the Creation Museum.
David Bruce put it well, Jeanette...sometimes it's best to just go about our non-belief quietly anyway. Otherwise we risk coming off just as pompous and self-righteous as your co-worker who felt compelled to give the 'Creaton Museum visit' excuse a public airing (Why? Why did he/she have to give a reason they couldn't attend your office mid-holiday gathering?)

But if asked, I'd surely give the truth, and even when I lived in the Deep South. Sometimes if I'm feeling particularly snarky, I'll just say I'm a Catholic in recovery.

Anytime you want to get together and have a gold ol' 'Jesus Christ Superstar' sing-along, let me know! Criminy, I thought I was the only one who had that whole libretto memorized...do you do 'Godspell' too? -r with pagan empathy.
Wonderful post. I differ with you on just a couple of points:

First, it's not true that the Creation Museum is, as you say, "a little hokey." That's a gross understatement - it's VERY hokey!!

More importantly, as someone involved in secular humanist activism, I wish you'd reconsider your aversion to conferences - they are actually a lot of fun, with lots if interesting people, etc. In fact, it is the activists wh0 attend these conferences who are trying to remedy the problem you raise (the problem of finding it difficult or impossible to be "out of the closet" as an atheist). If and when we are successful, your nonbelief will be much less of an issue with your peers and coworkers. Anyway, great job - rated.
Food for thought: technically, everybody is an atheist. A catholic is an atheist of the Greek gods, and a Hindu is an atheist of a muslim god.

I, too, especially as a child, hid my atheism. Since my parents were married at a Unitarian church I used to say I was that. And I live in the Northeast.

When my kids tell their friends they don't go to church, or don't believe, they are told they will go to hell. They say, "I don't believe in THAT either." Still, i f there were a god, why would he send to hell somebody who used all their rational thinking and came up with an opinion that turned out to be wrong?

As for "morals," you will find statistically that atheists are less likely to divorce, have abortions, have teen pregnancies and are no less likely to contribute to charities or otherwise be humane. In fact they are way more accepting, and hence loving, to people with differences. My child is transgender and only Christians have objected, no atheists.
I enjoy living a nontraditional life and being amused by those to whom it's so important to fit into a particular mold. Like you, I don't offer information about my atheism but I'm happy provide it if asked.

Most people seem to have a collective delusion for which there is no evidence, a delusion that is co-opted by power-hungry bastards and used to justify some pretty evil and greedy behavior. I don't think those who adopt faith as a tool for acquiring wealth and power actually believe what they espouse. They leave that part to the people they manipulate.
"(Honestly, can you imagine anything more lame than hanging out with a bunch of atheists?)"

Uh... yeah. ;)
I work in a northern Bible belt, and I get the uncomfortable religious emails from people at work who are wishing me well with all sorts of religious slogans and that sort of thing that you get from that sort of thing. I'm not an atheist, but nor am I of any of their normal denominations either, and I certainly believe in a bunch of things that would get their Bibles in a tither. But we live in that sort of environment where they can feel free to say anything they want, but not everyone has the same recourse. Yet, they'll act as if everyone is as free as can be.
I'm surprised Georgia doesn't have such a law. When I moved here from CA in 1993, the most frequent question I was asked when meeting someone new was "What church have you joined?" I thought some of them would swallow their tongues when I would answer: "I don't go to church."
Interesting post, Jeannette!

Lezlie
Loved this post. There truly is a DADT rule in effect for nonbelievers in many work and social situations, but you raise the issue perfectly. And it's not like you are dissing your co-workers for their beliefs. I had no idea that various state constutions had that prohibition against atheists. Where is the ACLU when you really need them? Finally, you cracked me up with the Save the Date card. We should, because I certainly don't want any conflicting appointments on my calendar. Oops. Snark. /r/
i live in texas, and i am not a christian, which makes me pretty suspect, i can tell you. i try to keep on the down-low, but if asked, i say it loud and proud. my mother cringes.
i like christmas trees, and baby jesus playing with his mother. i like whistling hymns if i am ever in church, which i am often enough.
i hope to never hold public office, but will truthfully admit i believe there is a god, just i won't admit there is only one, and all the rest can go to hell. yep, no god i know believes that shit.
I stopped trying to "come out" to my family as an atheist after I told my grandmother I wasn't "sure I believed in any of those things" and she said that it made Jesus sad to hear me say that.
I realized then that atheism isn't a particularly evangelical denomination.
i read this early today and came back to read it again. it's even better the second time, jeanette. i'm glad i work at home and i'm seriously glad i don't live in the bible belt, although there are plenty of fundamentalists even here in laid-back san diego, but i do what you describe so well: i don't mention it and i don't throw 'nonbeliever' in people's faces either. it can be very awkward.

you wrote this piece exceptionally well. that's what struck me as much as the topic did. i wish all the EPs were this good. it was a joy to read.
My favorite line: "But my non-belief doesn't prevent me from experiencing mystery and awe. Because I think that just about everything is random, including the fact that we are here at all, I am filled with gratitude and a true sense of wonder at the beauty that surrounds me. The ugliness too. It's all a part of the same glorious and fascinating drama." I want to show this to my born-again Christian sister who worries she won't see me in her Heaven in her hereafter, and doesn't understand how I cannot believe in God when all I have to do is "look around" me. Thanks for this. Very well said.
Well said Jeanette. This rings true for me too, "It's all a part of the same glorious and fascinating drama."
I think that all of us athesists know what you're talking about. As a matter of fact, it's so expected and so common to be discriminated against for having the atheism life view that most of us just accept it. Now that I think of it, it's a lot similar to the way that black people felt about discrimination before the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. Discrimination against athesist tends to be expressed in more subtle ways of course, such as by denying us friendship, respect, jobs, promotions etc.
Fabulous post, and one that took courage. I've had Canadian friends who've moved to the South for work and to a one they were stunned at how invasive people were about their religion. People literally left their jobs because of it. It was not just that so many people they encountered felt no compunction about asking total strangers where they worshipped, it was the assumption that everyone thought as they did -- on everything. Now I know that Southerners are more friendly (some might say "nosy"), especially compared to more conservative Canadians (small c conservative), but the idea that everyone wants to be "saved" is offensive, and so is the often-added assumption that you're going to hell into the bargain. Whatever happened to minding your business and live and let live?
I had no idea there were so many godless heathens on Open Salon! I'll try to respond as much as I can, because this has been an exceptional group of comments.

Mission - I am reminded of that bumper sticker: Jesus, save me from your followers. I have to say that I know a lot of progressive, liberal Christians, and it is those people who keep me from losing my mind down here sometimes.

Gabby - It is rather sad that one's own family members would think less of you. I'm glad this post resonated with you. I really thought that DADT was an appropriate analogy.

Keka - The Constitutional provision is indeed troubling. As I said, it would surely be overturned were it to be challenged. But the things that would have to happen first - an open atheist running for office and that person winning office - are so unlikely. And that's what really makes me angry.

Fred - I have heard of this mythical group! I wonder if there is some way to identify them, or if there is a secret handshake. :-) (And, actually, Davidson County was one of only a few that went Democratic in the last two general elections. So I'm sure there must be a lot of like-minded folks around here.)

Dicky - Those pesky questions can cause a lot of trouble, especially in Sunday School! (I was never subjected to that particular form of torture, thankfully.) I hope that you still have conversations with yourself, though. I get some of my best ideas that way!

Gabby - LOL!

kat - I didn't have my "awakening" at such a young age. That must be really hard because, at that point, you're at the mercy of so many people who have authority over you. And religious intolerance is exactly what this is. If we are free to believe whatever we want in America, we are also free to not believe as well.

min - I'll never tell. Oh wait, I already told you. But actually, my least favorite part of this post was singling someone out like that, even though I didn't use that person's name. I just felt like I had to mention it to make my larger point.

manhattankid - It can feel very oppressive at times. It was quite a shock when I moved here. And there are lots of things I love about the south. This just isn't one of them.

XJS - That's another good analogy. And conveniently, it's the same letter as the original one!
J- My relatives in TX break my heart, sucked into the Osteen Dimension, never a sane email sent, ever again.

Best line (imho) in JC Superstar, "Prove to me that you're so cool ... Walk across my swimming pool!" Sing along people!

But, how we got here really sucks, and speaks directly to how the bourgeois regard the proletariat, and why that holier than thou (apologies) attitude gives the elites the power to split the difference.

Wayback machine to the start of much of this, the Scopes Trial. The "educated" reporters had a field day in the newspapers of the time, ripping the locals to shreds as beyond just hicks, but literally absolute gene-challenged idiots incapable of rational thought.

These stories rang clear for months, all over the country, and the world: "Can you believe those credulous morons in Tennessee, how stupid can they possible get?" BTW, all this accompanied by drawings of hillbilly rubes, looking, well, like the products of incest.

Well, we are still suffering the blowback from this. The retreat into Protestant Schools where they could keep teaching the Creation Myth without having Ivy League reporters sketching them as Neanderthals. Which leads us to the Creation Museum.

Well, those good Kentucky folks (founder seems to be from Oz?) have their own museum now, and they found a story to cover the dinosaurs, but, what will happen in a couple years when it becomes common knowledge that until the death of the Giant Beasts there were a minimum of 5 species of "humans" all living together on God's good green Earth- then what? Animitronic Java Man? Homo Erectus on the Ark, peekin' thru the window with a baby Bronto by his side? Hey, what's a 65 million year discrepency here and there ...

IMUA
David - Your description of the American Humanist Association is kind of what I feared. I've been guilty of being smug sometimes, but it's certainly not something I would encourage. I hope more people will subscribe to your "live and let live" philosophy. We'd all be better off for it.

Kathy - It is a very weird anachronism. I don't know what would have to be done to abolish that provision, but I hope that it happens. I guess it wouldn't hurt for me to write to my state legislators.

bobbot - The hypocrisy is stunning sometimes. But, I guess those who condemn would rationalize it by saying that they will be forgiven for their sins. Those of us who don't believe don't have a god to forgive us, so I guess we're just out of luck. That's a very screwed up way of looking at things.

sophieh - I know what you mean about Florida! And I can understand that you might have some biases about fundamentalist Christians. They can be a confounding and very insular group, convinced of their righteousness. But I do take some comfort in the fact that all of the various denominations are sort of at war with one another. They all believe that they and they alone know the right way to heaven.

Satori1 - I can't think of a better "church" myself. I think the Gulf of Mexico is one of the most beautiful places on Earth, and that is where I feel a very strong sense of wonder and awe.

J.P. - I find that the need for something like a Creation Museum is just pretty strange. I think it's just a show of power and, of course, a way for a few people to get very rich. You live in Texas, eh? My sympathies. :-)

Christine - Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll add it to my list. I wonder if the library down here even has it?
Your description of how you became an atheist mirrors mine (except for attending Catholic school). And your description of being an atheist in the South mirrors my brother's experience - he's a liberal in heavily Republican Louisiana and is careful never to mention Obama's name in the office.

Excellent post.
"...I do think that the Creation Museum is a little hokey..."

That's putting it mildly. It's an abomination.
Oh and, by the way, I'm 46, my dad turned atheist in college, my mom was a born and raised atheist, her dad left behind his religion and country when he left Austria after WWI. My grandma and great grandma and grandpa were humanist freethinkers.

I know I'm going to get mine someday, though. One of my four will probably be born again.
An insightful post. You cut the line well between personal experience and distance with the subject. Your "end times" revelations--about the ongoing nature of the phenomenon--reminds me of the cult in Korea that has predicted The Big End a half dozen times in the last fifty years. That doesn't prevent people from believing that this time might be it. Curious.
Rated.
Beautifully written piece Jeanette. I'm not so soft spoken as you about my lack of belief in invisible friends. I'm curious: When asked what church you attend, what DO you say? Out here in the Southwest nobody ever asks, so I've never been confronted with that awkward moment.
Personally, I never understood the compulsion on the part of gays to come out of the closet. What's the big deal about hiding who you are when it's nobody's business who you choose to sleep with in the first place?

That all changed when I began my student teaching experience several years ago. A group of middle schoolers asked about my religion and refused to accept my "That's a private matter" as an acceptable response. Every single day they would pester me until finally I broke down and mumbled I was a Christian.

After uttering the lie, I began to understand the shame gays must feel when hiding their sexuality from others for the first time. But like yourself, I too lived in the Bible Belt at the time. Imagine the outrage when all these kids went home and told their parents their teacher was an atheist! I didn't have my license yet so this was a chance I was not willing to take.

On a side note, I can understand why Christians hate us Atheists so much. We can be extremely uppity when it comes to ridiculing them over their Creation Museum. It seems like every time I pick up a magazine or book there is some snarky article belittling the museum and all who visit it. Enough already!

To quote Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along?"
boy, this sure shows the difference between smalltown and bigtown america. as evidenced in the reaction to Palin etcetera. being an atheist in a big city is something that nobody cares about. by the way, what the @#%& is the exact definition of God, anyway? even a precise definition is rather supernatural. now theres the sound of one hand clapping, for sure.
Very informative and intelligent post, thank you. I've never lived in a Bible belt, so I couldn't imagine how it must be to function and be open about one's (non) beliefs.

One question: According to you, is atheism akin to not believing in any religion ; or can one believe in a supreme being but not accept a religion.
latethink - I really believe it is happening a lot more, and in some very surprising places - the Smithsonian, who would have thought! I just got through watching a piece on Countdown about how this is becoming an increasing problem in the military. I think we are in the beginning (or middle) stages of a real return to religious fundamentalism, which has happened periodically in our history. (Glad you appreciate Jesus Christ Superstar!)

culchieowman - I absolutely do not want to come across as pompous and self-righteous. I think that's just bad form coming from anyone. Let me know which parts you want to play in Jesus Christ Superstar. I call dibs on Jesus, though. But I've got to work on some of those high notes. (Myyyyyyy temple should be! A house of prayer! But you have made iiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! A den of thieves!) I'm not real big on Godspell. Maybe I'll give that one a try too.

And the thing is, I find the whole gospel account of Jesus' death incredibly moving. Even without believing, it is a beautiful and uplifting story.

Dave Niose - Point taken about the Creation Museum. A friend of mine here at work, an Episcopalian, was pretty much laughing her head off when she went to the website. You also make a good point about atheists coming together to try and end the bigotry that many atheists experience. That's a worthwhile thing for sure.

megwc - That's an interesting about any religious person being an atheist of a different religious person's god. And I'm with you on thinking that it's absolutely crazy that god supposedly created us with these large brains and free will, but that some will be condemned forever if they come to a different conclusion. That's just not right! I'm sorry that some Christians see fit to judge your child.

Leslie - Good for you for being so open about things. I am going to try to emulate that. It is troubling that people of faith with good intentions and kind hearts can often be manipulated by those who see religious faith as a means to worldly ends.

Shadow8 - OK, point taken. I suppose that hanging out at the Creation Museum might be more lame. Or attending an optometrist convention.

Duane - That's exactly it, and that's what bothers me so much. Freedom applies only to those who adhere to the majority viewpoint. But the rest of us? Keep it to yourself or else!

Lezlie - Yeah, I would think that Georgia would have a similar provision. Be glad it doesn't! When I first started working here, I was "interviewed" for the company newsletter, and one of the questions I was asked was what church I attended. I was so taken aback, because I had never been asked such a thing when I lived in Cleveland (my hometown), that I just answered honestly - that I didn't attend church. I could tell immediately that that wasn't a very good answer.

But let me say that the place I work isn't absolutely horrible. There are lots of nice people here, and I was never experienced discrimination from those few who did know about my religious views. Still, this is a very Christian place. There are no other religions represented here.

Steve - You would be wise to keep May 21st open. Just in case. If you've got any major business to take care of, get it done by early May. Just sayin'. :-)

dianaani - I like your attitude! And I have a lot of fond memories of the pomp and circumstance of my Catholic upbringing. Love the hymns. Love the whole "Mary worship" thing. Stations of the Cross during Lent was an absolutely shattering experience. I can certainly understand the appeal.

J.P. - Grandmothers are a tough audience. But I can't believe she actually used the line about making Jesus sad! And no, I don't think that atheism is an evangelical kind of thing. Still, it might be an interesting idea. Instead of saying "Have a blessed day", like a lot of folks here do, I could try something like "Have a god-free day!"

femme forte - Thanks for reading twice. That it resonated with you, and that you thought it was written well really makes my day!
we atheists shouldn't make fun of "creation museums" , whatever
the fuck they are, but you know that. No one oughta make light
out of anyone's core values.

Values get you through the day.
Purpose, ever important,
is precious where you can get it.

You actually are more TRULY religious than most.
Not alot of people see wonder and beauty in the world.
For it is dangerous. No Jehovah of morality could have made it.
The only God, the One True God,
YOU...in the ultimate exercise of your communion (YOUR FEELING-WITH OTHERS)
and power (individuality)
are all
Christ "required".
Love your neighbor, and
your Father (ULTIMATELY yourSelf)

and do unto others.

Sweet little philosophy, that....
The Pope, though,
might be right....the universe is no accident...
but..its only justification for existing is the Now
it allows, which we gotta slip into.

Ah, atheism. Personally i am not an atheist,
except in the form of a-theist, non-theist.
Higher power exists, and bestows
grace and karma, but only to the a-theist.
the non-believer.
Faith is a differnt thing...faith is knowing your next step or thought
is taken up
and you will have firm ground for the next, and the next.
God as "ground of be-ing"
I have to start off by saying, that I think, for what ever it's worth, that it takes a lot of guts to come out and talk so openly about your religious beleifs. I, myself, do not subscribe to the Christian religious beleives per say, and I know how difficult it can be to be so open and honest about it, know that anyone could take it the wrong, or maybe right way and turn so much hate on people. It shouldn't be about condemning people, but, rather, finding what is right for you personally and following that. That is what matters and, given the fact that the only time in which any of us will have the proof and be absolutely certain about what is right and wrong in that department it will be too late to change anything, the damage will already be done, I think it's best to go with what your heart says, what feels right for you because, for better or for worse, there will be no room for regret on the topic, no reason to hate yourself for your religious choices but I digress.
I wanted to tell you, that while you said you thought anything you said would be lost in transaction, I think you expressed your self quit well, and I have a little similar experiences, so you are not alone.
Bonnie Council - I'm glad you liked that part, because I think it's really important. Non-belief doesn't mean a dull and dour existence. There is so much to be thankful for, so much to be awestruck by. I have had many moments of just thinking, "I am so glad to be here right now experiencing this!" Heaven, hell, it's all here.

Scarlett - Thanks for getting that. You have to embrace it all. There was an episode of Bill Moyers Journal (the last one before he retired), with the writer Barry Lopez, that expressed that idea so well. If you're interested, the interview can be found here.

Gary - Sadly, I think you're right. Being ostracized isn't the same as being beaten up or verbally abused, but it hurts. Especially when you know in your heart that you're a decent person, but someone else can't get past your decision not to participate in the status quo.

emma - Thanks very much. It took a little courage, but I feel so overwhelmingly supported now - I think the risk was well worth it. As you say, it's the assumption that no one is any different that's so annoying. It's just so narrow. The world is so huge, with so many different people holding different beliefs, I just don't know why anyone would choose to ignore that. And, yeah, I don't want to be "saved". (Actually, I have always thought that getting saved was much more of an emotional experience than a spiritual one.)

Bonnie Russell- Thanks, as always. Hopefully, some time in the 21st century, all of those archaic constitutional provisions will be revoked!

Oahusurfer - Yes, that is a great line! Clearly, we have the makings of a kick-ass production of Jesus Christ Superstar here! And that is a really interesting take on how we got here, something that I hadn't thought about. Very perceptive. (And reminds me that I would really like to go to Dayton, TN sometime for the yearly reenactment of the Scopes trial.) Thanks for your comment.

Cranky - That's just ludicrous that your brother can't talk about the President at work. I guess I'm lucky in that, even though my office is heavily Christian, the politics of my organization is actually pretty liberal. Which is one of those strange anomalies you run into in parts of the south.

codger07 - I guess one could say that. Just trying to keep it respectful! Live and let live, etc. But, of course, I could never imagine going there.

megwc - That's quite a lineage! Well, if one of your kids does become born again, at least it might liven up family get-togethers. Maybe? Hopefully? ;-)

BOKO - Thank you so much for picking up on that. I really didn't want this to be all about me. There's a much bigger picture here, and I am merely a small speck. The end times thing really is interesting in that a person can be wrong several times, and still maintain credibility. It must take some real mental gymnastics on the part of the followers!

Conrad - As I mentioned in a response to someone else, I actually did admit once to not attending church, and got a somewhat chilly response. Current answers include, "I'm kind of between churches right now.", "I haven't really found the right one yet.", or "Hey, look, it's snowing!"
MSNBC is reporting that Americans in the military are being asked to take religious tests and forcing people into counseling for their religious or spiritual deficits if they don't answer the way the military wants. Watch it here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/#40956863.
The world is a ridiculous place and of all the places the South is the most ridiculous of all. I am extreme in my views of extremists which in itself is ridiculous which proves my theory.
This struck a chord with me. I've never classified myself as an "atheist" - I have been either agnostic or Christian most of my life - but the religiosity of life here strikes me dumb often enough. When I lived in Dallas, one of my co-workers actually conducted an exorcism of another employee's cubicle. I kid you not. And no one thought anything about it; she didn't get in any trouble at all!
If these Christians were as religious as they claim, they would spend less time persecuting non-Christians and spend more time helping the poor. r
This is a great post. I'm an atheist who always feels like I have to soften that stance when I talk to other people... even family members.
Wow, what a great and deeply moving post! I am so impressed by your writing.
Wow, what a great and deeply moving post! I am so impressed by your writing.
Amen, sister. I don't like to thing that I lost faith. I think I gained reason.
I wonder what happens to state employees who put up pictures of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Ramen!
Ex-Catholic atheist here. 12 years nun-schooled, then I bolted. If I told my family I was atheist, they would disown me, so I keep quiet. Recently went to some atheist meet-ups and found some really angry people there who want to prove to Christians that they are smart and Christians are SO stupid. Sheesh. I felt like I had to hide my live/let live philosophy. Guess it goes both ways sometimes. Great post.
Fabulous post. I don't feel I am an atheist but more of an uncurious agnostic. But I totally agree with the DADT aspect. I do think 'faith' or a belief in something helps reassure the people that need that. The fear of punishment or hope for reward helps some folks do the right thing. I just think I should do the right thing because it's the right thing. Not because of fear of hell or prison time or anything else. A moral gyro-scope. By the way ex-RC too. R
The high number of non-believers in our country is one of its two remaining taboo-maintained secrets, the other being the high number of pot smokers. More is actually known about the prevelance of gay men and lesbians than about these other two groups.

By making religiousity a defacto condition of employment for most every job in the country, "believers" have kept the alternate viewpoint underground. An athiest can be sitting next to another one every day for a full career without ever realizing it.
Travis - Your experience in the classroom is very informative, and illustrates well the parallels between sexuality and religious belief that is "outside the norm". And, yes, we've just got to stop persecuting them about the museum. I'm sure that the next step is going to be deportation. All hail our atheist overlords! (If that's not a contradiction in terms.)

vzn - I think that this phenomenon is more confined to smaller towns and the south (which was largely rural until fairly recently) because church was as much of a force for social cohesion as anything, and the church was the center of the community for religious as well as social purposes. That way of thinking is still very prevalent here. And yes, the definition of God seems pretty elusive.

Fusun - I am hopeful that things will get better here, especially since so many southern cities and towns are seeing an influx of immigrants with completely different religious beliefs. Maybe that will nudge up the tolerance level for all beliefs, as well as non-belief. As far as my definition of atheist, for me it is the absence of belief in any supreme being. Of course, the terms are rather fluid, and there varying degress of atheism and agnosticism, but I would say that someone who believes in a supreme being, but is not affiliated with a particular religion is not an atheist.

Mr. Sunshine - I agree with you that a person's core values shouldn't be held up to ridicule. If I do that, how can I expect anyone to treat me the same way? I'll be re-reading the rest of your comment several times. I think you've packed a lot in there in such a way that its meaning will only reveal itself gradually. Thanks for your poetry.

Paula - What a wonderful comment, worthy of a post of its own. You express so well the importance of each of us following our own path, and letting others do the same. Thank you for letting me know that I got through loud and clear.

Leslie - I saw that segment. As I said to latethink earlier, it seems like we are in the midst of a sweeping return to fundamentalism. I hope that the military will take proper steps to handle this.

Stellaa - I don't doubt that there are many public officials who have to put on a front in order to get elected and re-elected. You're right that when more people start to tell the truth about themselves, maybe we can get over this charade.

Dr. Spudman - I hear you. It's hard not to get exasperated sometimes. But I have to believe that there are a lot more of us here than anyone thinks.

Blue - That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's great that people feel free enough to be so open about their beliefs, but that's got to extend to everyone. And it plainly doesn't. (But wow, an exorcism of a cubicle. Just wow.)

RWoo5G - There's certainly that, isn't there? I think a lot of times they're just making up answers to the question "What would Jesus do?" because I can't imagine Jesus doing a lot of what they're doing.

Roger - I think that family members are actually the toughest. I just think it's a lot more awkward than co-workers or people you've just met. I think you just have to keep telling yourself, "I have a right to my own beliefs. I'm not hurting anyone else here. I deserve at least a minimal amount of respect here!"

Anthony - Wow, thanks so much. I see that you're an attorney, so your positive critique of my writing means a great deal to me, as attorneys have to be so precise in their own writing.

Major Mojo - I guess it feels like that for me, too. And although some religious beliefs certainly seem to be completely devoid of reason, I guess that faith itself doesn't require reason. But that's a concept I can no longer manage.

Cymraeg - An interesting question. I would hope that, if anyone had any disciplinary action taken against them for something like that, they would contact the ACLU right away. We have a great state chapter here in Tennessee!

hrndnwmn - Oh, that's so sad that you have to hide your true self among the Christians AND the atheists! See, that's what I'm kind of afraid of about associating with an organized atheist group. I don't want to push anything on anyone (geez, I have a problem with Christian evangelism - I'm certainly not interested in being an atheist evangelist!), and I don't want to be smug and smarmy about it. Yeah, live and let live for sure.

Peter - Thanks for seeing my point about DADT. I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't comparing any discrimination I have experienced with what gay people have to go through, but I just couldn't ignore the obvious similarities here. If people need faith for reassurance or to help them make moral choices, I think it's a great thing. If only that were all that religion was about!

To conclude, I want to thank everyone again for the truly interesting and unique comments. This whole experience has been very liberating for me.
Jimmy - I hadn't thought about it quite that way, but that makes a lot of sense. There aren't many "taboos" left, and being a non-believer sure feels like one of them. And pot smokers, absolutely. I am amazed many times by the people who do so regularly that I never would have thought. But I'm sure it's the illegality that is mostly responsible for that.

Thanks to everyone who added me to their list of favorites based on this post. That's quite a compliment, and I hope I can live up to it!
Great post.

I'm glad Emma weighed in with the different way Canadians think about religion -- 1) it's always a deeply private matter 2) super diverse country with 30 m people of all faiths 3) no religious BS spouted by politicians -- they wouldn't dare because they know they'd be a laughingstock.

It's deeply ironic to me that Americans (varying by region) are so oppressively religious -- when the "social safety net" (hello, Christian behavior -- help thy neighbor) is a Republican blasphemy.

My partner is Buddhist and his relatives Baptist/fundamentalist. At one of our first lunches, in Texas where they live, when he went to the bathroom they leaned over and asked me: "What's with the Buddhism? He'll be left behind at the Rapture."

I can assure you that in the 22 years I have lived in a NYC suburb, NO ONE (thank God, in any form) has ever even mentioned the Rapture. (At least I knew what they were talking about.)
Excellent post. Breezy, accessible writing, no polemics.

THIS: "...it is not something I arrived at casually or frivolously. I'm not rebelling against anything. Personal tragedy didn't harden my heart. I can sing all the parts in Jesus Christ Superstar. "

So hard for Believers to understand. We can be angry over real harm done by Faith, but that does NOT mean we have "hate" for belief. I simply love my feelings of sacred and divine, and Al Green's "Mighty Clouds of Joy" make my heart soar. All without a shred of belief in anything supernatural on my part. Seems perfectly natural to me.

If you ever get tired of DADT, try our secular Hudson Valley, NY. I am out as an atheist for a decade and no one gives a darn. Well, practically no one.
Jeanette, I tried to comment yesterday but it didn't stick. I think your post is excellent, most particularly the point about the gradualism of your atheism. I think that is just a pitch perfect description for many people that has somehow escaped notice.

There is something here I'd like to challenge, though, and that is your assumption that your atheism would be met with something uncivil. You might be surprised. While I agree that the expectation of belief, the assumption of religiosity as normal, can feel tyrannical, you really don't have any personal evidence that an expression of disbelief by you to your own family, friends, and coworkers would result in the shock, disgust, anger, or pity that you take for granted. I have noticed that people have intellectual opinions about things that often contradict the warmth and acceptance they proffer those in their inner circle. You could open minds.

Oh, and something else: I kind of *do* have a problem with visits to the Creation Museum being accepted as normal. Well, I should make it clear that I actually want to go there myself next time I'm in Cincinnati at the in-laws, but it would be out of curiosity not ideology. What I mean is that I don't think we as a society should "normalize" those who advocate creationism as a valid scientific theory. I don't actually have a problem with the Pope tying the Big Bang to God b/c what else is he to do? At least he is reconciled with evolution. That's important to me.
Caitlin - Thanks so much. I didn't know that there was a such a difference in the way that Canadians handle this issue, and I'm glad that both you and emma have brought it up. And don't get me started on the deeply entrenched conservative Christian opposition to the social safety net. I can't wrap my head around that one. The "rapture" wasn't something that never appeared on my radar until I moved here. I want a bumper sticker that says, "In case of rapture, can I have your car?"

Greg - Thank you. I try to write the way I speak. Sometimes I fear that I will too wordy, or digress to much. Glad to know that's probably not the case. And a resounding "Amen!" to your second paragraph! If I ever get to New York state, I'll look you up!

Lainey - So glad you came back to try and leave a comment again! You always make me look at things in a new way. You may very well be right that an open admission on my part wouldn't have such dire consequences as I imagine. In fact, now that I'm so open and above-board about this, I may come back and report what happens when I do have such a conversation with a person of faith.

And you make an excellent point in your last paragraph. In my attempt to be as neutral as possible, I may have glossed over the consequences of normalizing what is taught at the Creation Museum. I do think that a pervasive belief in creationism will have devastating consequences for scientific inquiry and achievement, one of the few things that has lifted humanity out of the dark ages.
Religion is the opium of the masses. It prevents them from realizing their own oppression, the constant raping, degredation and humiliation visited upon them by their Capitalist oppressors.

Atheism and Humanism recognize that human beings must be paramount and foremost in our minds, not plastic images of Christ on a wall, or the silk-lined pockets of a wealthy, comfortable, pedophile Bourgeois priest.

VIVA FIDEL!

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
I completely related to this. Having left my mormon teachings behind while still living in Utah and with my very mormon family makes me the odd man out. I know my "falling away" and my attitude has been the topic of conversation more than once.
I have the same problem to a lesser degree living here in California. Being an agnostic and trying to deal in scientific facts the same way an atheist does doesn't just get you into trouble with traditional types but also the New Age Spiritualists as well as the conspiracy theorists. It's easier to just with the norms of the situation than it is to make waves.

Perhaps you'll find it interesting that sometimes I am in a situation where the norm is atheism and my tiny fractional divide away from that into agnosticism on the outside, making it easier to sometimes convince others I'm fully atheist as they are just to fit better into what I see as the acceptable norms of the group.
Honestly, can you imagine anything more lame than hanging out with a bunch of atheists?

Easy: Going to church. Or to the Creation Musem.

By the way, you should keep in mind that those atheists probably attend conferences precisely because they want to end the situation you describe. And if you enjoy the comments here, it seems to me that you could enjoy hanging out with atheists every now and then.
Thank you for so eloquently expressing what I have felt for years. In fact, I want to post your piece on my Facebook page, but I am afraid to do so because of the repercussions that you describe here.
Jeanette, I felt that way, about hanging out with other atheists until I did, and I am not a "true" atheist. The Secular Coalition of America exists to promote the rights of atheists to have a government without religion. The Humanist Society will have guest speakers on topics about civil rights, science, constitutional discussions, etc while keeping you updated on the ways that fundamentalists seek to eliminate your rights or promote special favor for themselves. Most people I have met at any of these meetings are totally decent people who just don't believe in god. Try meetup.org or Craigslist. Any fundamentalist isn't going to be interested in your pov anyhow, their's is the only way. While not believing in god may seem extreme to many, it correlates highly with liberal politics, scientific reasoning, and modern thinking. Things no one would expect to find in Tennessee.
Great post! If anyone asks I just tell them I belong to the Landover Baptist Church - America's favorite church.
http://landoverbaptist.org/
I always said I was an Agnostic. I just don't know. Even that has lots of stigma.
Jeanette -- Thank you so much for writing this and putting into words my own reality, and that of my husband and children. Our family and friends love us and accept us, and wouldn't love us any less if we delved deeper into our religious differences, it's just easier to keep religion out of the conversation. We can bow our heads for a meal prayer, attend a Christmas or Mother's Day service, etc....but you're right, it is a form of DADT. I can live with that in my relationships with family and friends because they are worth it, but on a certain level I resent living with it in society at large. Being expected to pass as Christian at work and among the general public so as to avoid conflict or harassment is too much.
Another excellent post, Jeanette. I so understand where you are. Thanks for letting me know about the laws. ..how the hell (pardon the pun) does one legislate belief?
Jeannette, that's amazing about the state of Tennessee. I wonder if this will ever change.
This is wonderful Jeanette, thank you. I feel compelled to share my shame as well.
At a Mennonite school that was hosting a meeting for another church groups' homeschool testing, located in the bible belt (oh the pressure to conform), I told a woman that I was a utilitarian just to avoid admitting that I didn't believe in god. Yes, I said utilitarian. She just nodded her head and said she had heard of them before. How can you argue with that?

Part of me wanted to get the woman a dictionary. Thanks again.