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Yagoda- Yezhov

Yagoda- Yezhov
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The Gulag
Birthday
December 31
Title
Sonderkommando
Company
I G Far Side Ben...wink
Bio
Got caught on an electrified fence in my youth and was properly re-educated in the precepts of the New World Short-Order Cook Book!...wink

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Salon.com
MAY 21, 2012 11:43AM

Response To My Good Friend Jack Heart About Israel

Rate: 2 Flag

Jack, ole buddy, you have an appealing unconventional mind, and I urge you to write another contrarian essay, but I have to clear up our disagreement over Israel's military capability.  Before we get there I want to say a couple of things about the dumb NATO experiment with the ex Soviet Republic of Georgia. Remember that Russian war over the territory of northern Ossetia, which was in dispute between Russia and Georgia. Yes, Russia prevailed, but only after bringing to bear a lot of its conventional capabilities, and this war was right on its border. Russia has great difficulty in projecting power, its military forces are run down and corrupt, and the Russians themselves admitted as much afterwards, realizing that a lot of upgrading has to take place to maintain Russia's less than super power status.

Now to Israel.  The summer 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Yes, this war showed some unpreparedness in the Israeli forces.  Some troops didn't even have enough water.  A couple Israeli tanks were destroyed by anti-tank munitions. But the Israeli war casualties were far smaller than the dead in Lebanon, as a result of Israeli artillery and air strikes. Israel's destruction of much of Lebanon's vital infrastructure, such as the Beirut power plant, and water treatment plant, etc. was the strategy they pursued, to impose unacceptable levels of pain on the Lebabanese government and people, who would then react by politically pressuring Hezbollah to cease and desist.  The end of the war was inconclusive, but like all advanced militaries, the IDF has learned from its mistakes and will conduct the next war against Hezbollah with greater efficacy. For example, if such another war breaks out soon because of Israel's likely strike on Iran, then it's possible that in such circumstances, under the exigencies of fighting a two front war, that Israel will establish a 'cordon sanitaire' in southern Lebanon with a carpet of nerve gas to kill every human being there, including the Hezbollah rocket forces.  If such 'in extremis' action is not taken then the prevalence of UAVs, and other precision targeting means, will impact Hezbollah with greater success than in 2006.

As for Iran, you know my position. The probability is increasing that Israel will feel it must strike sometime in the next couple of months, since the Iranian uranium enrichment program will probably not be reversed.  One of the benefits of the Western economic sanctions regime against Iran that has been in place for months now is its effect on Iranian military readiness and effectiveness.  Iran's military capability continues to degrade weekly, especially since the Iranian regime is dedicating its few scarce remaining economic resources in continuing the uranium enrichment and constructing underground nuclear facilities. The Iranian Air Force, and all auxilliary support services, such as those for its missile forces, are gradually degrading.  Iran is being starved and beggared.  Another couple of months of this process will make Israel's strike easier, and we will see what retalliatory capability Iran will have.  As I said, I'm going on the record with my predictions.  We will all know soon enough.

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Your mistake is that you seem to think you will be pushing around a bunch of ignorant cowardly Arabs who will capitulate after taking a minimal amount of casualty's and go home and beat their wives. Iran is not Iraq they will retaliate with a vengeance that would do any western nation proud. They are backed by both China and Russia whom by the way is still very much a super power. Russia has never stopped producing state of the art weapons in spite of what the senile generals on CNN tell you. In fact it is their principle export and more desirable than the shit our arms manufacturers produce. The straight of hormuz can not be blockaded on account that the Iranians have a shit load of sunburn missiles (about 3 generations more advanced than the exorcet missile) courtesy of Russia. They will sink every ship that go’s within 120 miles of their shoreline we have no defense against them. Rumor also has it that Russia has also equipped them with Satan missiles which they will fire into Israel with impunity reducing her city's to rubble. They don’t even need an air force and I think you are overestimating ours. Russian jets have always been just as good as ours if not better. Yes Israel has nukes, a few, but Russia has many and you can bet they will use them if Israel try's using hers. Putin is just looking for a showdown he’s heard enough of our hollow bragging. Take a good look at Putin and take a good look at Obama. Who do you think is going to win in that fight? You say Russia has trouble projecting its power. How long did it take Stalin to overrun the Japanese in Manchuria? That is another fable courtesy of the senile CNN “generals.”
Jack, I see we continue to have huge differences in our respective assessments of the balance of power in the Middle East and the world. We must be patient and wait the next couple of months for the world to unfold and instruct us all.
Jack, Jacko, Jackster; you believe some weird shit, my friend. Russia has virtually no ability to project power beyond nations she shares a border with, and if you take the imbroglio in Georgia as some kind of indicator of Russian competence and military superiority, you don't know much about how war plays out when the big boys are involved. Remember Grozny in '94, its streets littered with burned out Russki BTRs nde T-72s? Russian hardware is pretty good in some cases,
Ooops, posted that before I was done with it, dangit! Anyway, I'll cut to the chase; Russian military superiority and fearsome tactical competence is a quaint notion but it's not well grounded in reality. In any toe-to-toe confrontation with them or their proxies, we'd clean their clock, though the Iranian assymetric warfare response after we hit them (which by the way has nothing to do with Russian capabilities) would be problematical.
Nana, glad to see you're 'all in' on OS agin. Yes, the Iranian assymetric response is the ONE face card they have to play. As some military experts have observed the Iranian regime will definitely stir up Shia militancy throughout the Middle East, particularly in the Saudi oilfields. And of course the response by the Saudis and other affected governments will be to step up repression and accelerating my expectations for increasing 'fascicization' of the world...wink. And I bet Shia militias in Baghdad will start mortaring and rocketing the US Green Zone, perhaps haphazardly at first but then becoming emboldened as the al-Maliki government proves incompetent in maintaining security, thereby eventually causing another ignominious US embassy roof-top helicopter evacuation. It's gonna look great on TV!
One further thing, and this addresses Jack's allegation that Arabs are somehow cowardly; there have been several real-world examples of Russian-equipped and Russian-style-trained militaries going up against US-equipped and US-style-trained militaries, and every fucking time the US hardware and, more importantly, the US-style-training and US military doctrines resulted in utter routes of the Russki-type formations and in kill ratios massively in our favor. This is not because Arabs are ignorant and cowardly, or even necessarily because our hardware is better ( the M-60 was no better a tank than the T-62 for instance); it is because troops trained in the Russian fashion do such things as, for example, operating their armored vehicles fully buttoned up, which severely reduces situatioinal awareness, whereas our (or the Israeli) vehicle commanders are out there on top of the turret where they can see what the hell is going on. That's just one little example, but a little research will easily show how hapless the Russian military or any military operating in the Russian fashion would be when faced with US heavy divisions such as the 3rd ID or 1st Armored.
Yeah, and one can easily imagine TWO Saigon-style embassy evacuations in the next few years, one in Baghdad and one in Kabul. Maybe one in Islamabad too, eventually.
I know nana and we stopped the invincible Wehrmacht at Kursk and Stalingrad too. We will resume this conversation later have to go get money now.
According to Wikipedia ; “During the First Chechen War, Grozny was the site of an intense battle lasting from December 1994 to February 1995 and ultimately ending with the capture of the city by the Russian military. Intense fighting and carpet bombing carried out by the Russian Air Force destroyed much of the city. “

Second Chechen War: “Grozny was once again the epicenter of fighting after the outbreak of the Second Chechen War, which further caused thousands of fatalities. During the early phase of the Russian siege on Grozny on October 25, 1999, Russian forces launched five SS-21 ballistic missiles at the crowded central bazaar and a maternity ward, killing more than 140 people and injuring hundreds. During the massive shelling of the city that followed, most of the Russian artillery were directed toward the upper floors of the buildings; although this caused massive destruction of infrastructure, civilian casualties were much less than in the first battles. The enormous scale of the devastation prompted numerous comparisons with Hiroshima [31] and other cities leveled during World War II’”

Oh yes nana sounds like the Chechens really showed them.

As far as these tank battles you are talking about between American equipped and trained forces and Russian equipped and trained forces I assume they are the Arab Israeli wars. I rest my case.

Now lets talk about Georgia which was a far better indicator of Russian power than a Civil War where you made up your facts. Georgia was equipped with the latest NATO weapons including war ships and tanks all supervised by battle hardened Israeli advisors. it took the Russians exactly 5 days to utterly destroy all the NATO equipment including tanks (probably because the dummy's were riding around in them with their heads sticking up, a snipers wet dream), completely route the Georgian army, sink their entire fleet, and capture all their Israeli advisors. But that don’t mean nothing does it?

Do not get me wrong here I fear for the people of Israel because Judaism is my adopted religion and I believe the third temple must be built. I fear for the people of America because my children and the people I love live here. You people are applauding starting a war that will result in the deaths of millions if not billions of people but I believe some strange things.

Oh yea I forgot we also routed the Wehrmacht at the gates of Moscow too. The only reason the Germans lost the battle of the Bulge is because the Germans ran out of gas. Their tanks ran right through ours and overran their supply lines which were limited anyway.

And now we can get to the American weapons systems try reading this you might not like it its non fiction maybe theres a comic book version for you:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/19/business/la-fi-fighter-jet-down-20111220

Oh and from personel experience The AR15 is a great gun on the target range but it does not hold a candle to either the AK74 or the Chinese SK in battle situations that’s why our special forces that are going out on long term missions in the field are issued AK74's besides the the 5.45 makes a way bigger hole than the 5.56.
Jack, I don't want you to feel angry because I always want you to feel free to express your views. First, in my posts I am making predictions about the future. I have no power to influence foreign policy decisions. If Israel attacks, as I expect, it's no one's fault on OS or the Internet.

Secondly, I want you to think about the Russia/Georgia war. Just on the face of it, without knowing any details, it is peculiar that, if Russia is as strong as you claim, that they had to fight this war of encroaching US imperialism on their doorstep. Powerful countries don't get into the situation where they have to assert their power and fight for their credibility and dignity so close to home. It's just an observation of how power politics tend to play themselves out on the world stage.
The Russians ultimately took Grozny, Jack, but not by dint of their superior tactics and military expertise. They first sent in motorized/armored formations which were basically wiped out by Chechen civilians with molotov cocktails and grenades, so they then retreated to the outskirts and only took the city after a sustained bombardment. Contrast that with the 3rd Infantry Division's thunder runs which resulted in the capitulation of Baghdad, a city many times larger than Grozny, in only a few days. The US armored columns met and defeated mass human wave attacks from Saddam's fedayeen and from Iraqi regular army units (so much for your characterization of Arabs as cowardly) while steadily advancing into the heart of Baghdad, and they did so while suffering negligible losses in men and vehicles. The two cases illustrate a stark contrast between Yankee war-fighting capabilities and Russki ones, and why do you think that is, Jack? One word; training. The modern US military has the best training and the most effective cadres of noncommissioned officers the world has seen since Hitler's Wehrmacht, and the fact that you think the Russians' sad-ass conscripts could hold a candle to our professionals tells me you know a lot of stuff but that you're not up to speed on military matters. And for the record, I don't read comics, Jack, though I do agree about your assessment of the Ak-47 and Ak-74 versus the AR series of weapons, though for now I'll have to make do with my Norinco SKS and my proudly American-made MPA30. Pray and spray and let God sort 'em out!
And Jack, speaking of fiction; I don't read it. On the other hand, going off your own self-proclaimed sources of "information" I'd have to say you're a great afficionado of fantasy writing.
Aficionado; one "F" or two? Oh well, fuck it, I'm just an unedumicated yokel without spell check. ;-)
Nana you really should write fiction I have always said you are one of the best writers on here. The only fighting our brave boys did in Iraq was murder all the woman and children in Fallujah. The Iraqis couldn't surrender fast enough just like every other Arab army since Saladin. I have never even met anybody who boasted about being in either Iraqi campaign even the soldiers know they weren’t in no real war. Afghanistan is a completely different story. I will give you that. The Pashtuns may even rival our own rednecks in bravery but the nonsense you just made up about human wave attacks by phantom Arab army's sounds like a FOX news special. I knew you would agree with me about the guns because you know about guns which is why I find you more tolerable than some of the eunuchs on here, at least you are not a eunuch, so you are entitled to your opinion since I do believe you are prepared to back it up with your life. Just remember it is my children and your nephews life you are prepared to bet on this.

And my turtle friend right now we the United States of America is being invaded by Mexico so I find your argument about super powers being immune to attack completely irrelevant. At least Russia fought back.
And by the way I like you both and find you both intellectually amusing. Good night boys time for some beer and Xanax.
The nonsense I just made up? Are you calling me a liar? You really do need to acquaint with yourself with first-hand accounts of the thunder runs, my friend, before you go insulting a person in a way that in my neighborhood would end with you being gutted and left on a dirt road to feed the coyotes. ;-) Good-humored death threats aside, your arrogant dismissal of facts you find inconvenient is, frankly, rather pathetic. Read books, Jack, books which are based on actual events rather than interesting but ultimately irrelevant arcana drawn from myth and supposition and paranoiac conspiracy theories.
Got any extra Xanax?