My concerns aren't programmatic: the arc of American History is such that progressivism wins, in the end. My concern is more abt the anabling of religious rt wing zealots.

Unfortunately Jon, they are stuck with the girl that brought them. They have to stick to a Teaparty agenda or they will be out next. If I learned nothing, I learned that the Teaparty isn't just republican and democrat, it is a hodgepodge of people from allover this country, who for good or bad, want religion in our government. We shall see!

Scanner thanks; religious impulses are ofen positive but almost never as I describe them, above.

I never feel qualified enough to comment on politics, Jon; however, on the gut level, I agree with what you are saying. 'Rightwing religion' and 'zealot' are two concepts that make me feel very uneasy.
~R

FusunA me, too. Thanks.
And I really mean it when I say that I recognise how positive religion can be in people's/communities' lives and yetm as to American politics, it's never been helpful, not on balance.

zealots? are they not worse than that?
rated with hugs

Linda Zealots, these days, are frightening...I guess always, bc for them Gd demands no moderation, no compromise, and useful policy always requires exchanges. TY!

Religious fanatics scare the hell out of me and that's not easy since I don't believe in hell. Whenever I hear a politician -- no matter his affiliation -- start talking "god," I run the other way.
R

I hadn't really considered the assassination angle from that perspective but you're right. What I will say is that the Tea Party platform, such as it is, seems to be built on things other than religious content per se. Deficits, immigration, bigotry, taxation aren't religious issues. There's a lot of serious hatred there but I wouldn't call most of it religion-based in this election.

Donna I trusted Dr. King when he invoked God. But he wasn't running for office. I am w you on this. TY.

I couldn't agree more about keeping religion out of politics and government. I do think, however, that the situation with the Tea Party is perhaps a bit more complicated than outlined here. From what I can tell, the Tea Party movement (speaking generally, for it escapes precise definition) started out as something very much like Goldwater conservatism; i.e., the emphasis was on responsible limited government and fiscal sanity. But as the movement grew, social- and neo-conservatives ingratiated themselves with it, or, rather, hijacked much of it. That said, I do feel that there remains a strong paleo-conservative/libertarian faction within it.

I've rated your post because it articulates well the potential threat we should be concerned about.

Rob thank you and, to an extent, I agree w you. Goldwater was a genuine libertarian who once, on TV, told Rev. Falwell to "go to Hell" if he tht he could tell his daughters what to do as to abortion.

Kosh no; not all, certainly, but it's a core element. TY

"...before they harm America in ways that cannot be repaired." Too late for that.

Rated.

Kevin Thanks tho I think it can as yet be repaired.

You're welcome, Jonathan. I should add that Goldwater also supported allowing gays to serve openly in the military long before other politicians of import thought to do so (and most still don't).

It's not just the Republicans, pretty much all politicians rely primarily on appeals to emotions with little or no attempt to address the issues honestly. However there can be little or no doubt that the Republicans have been much worse in this manner for a long time and recent activity has turned it into a bizarre satire so extreme that it should be impossible to miss, unless you happen to be a cult follower indoctrinated into the religion.

Zach yes. TY.

Rob re Barry G., you're right. I would not have voted for him in '64 but he was not, at least, beholden to the religious-right.

Ya know, it's the old one rotton apple thing.. you know how I feel..:)

Cindy yep. TY.

What a nasty combo, Jon. Preaching politics is a waste of time.

Just...sigh. Ouch, and...sigh...

I posted all I have to say on this subject! I need a break from everything. Having just lost a beloved pet, I don't really care to say any more.

B. yep quite a combination.

Keka we'll be back.

Kenny will read your piece now. Thanks.

Whenever I have one of these conversations with right wing religious zealots I ask them a simple question:

"Please name the successful theocratic state that has survived and flourished. Just one." Of course there aren't any. Some have pointed to Israel and I argue Israel would not exist without US help, so you can't call it a success.

Others have asked, "Whuddya mean theocratic?" I give up.

Conrad the reason Israel's a successful democracy is precisely bc it was founded as a secular state. That is hs religious parties doesn't take from that. Thank you.
Your larger point's well-made.

"Zealots" exist on both sides of the issues. I have seen radical left wing behaviors in my neck of the woods time after time and I cannot stomach the far right with their holier than thou rantings and rallies. They both scare the bejeebies out of me and I want no part of either side. Politics is badly tainted by both extremes as we are witnessing daily. No wonder so many of us have fled the grip of divisive party politics, fueled by media extremes and aren't looking back.

Cathy well-said extremism is not a market cornered by the Right tho I'd say religious extremism is. Thanks!

Anytime religious views and politics cross I am deeply suspicious and disappointed.

Buffy your kind of skepticism's very healthy! TY.

I went to bed when it was looking bad, took three advil. Woke up equally pissed. "Now, we need to roll up our sleeves and get to work. Define our values, tighten our message and prepare our messengers." Kevin Lampe; "WELL, Conservatives? Why isn't everything fixed yet? Hop to it." - Ivan Ewert; "For Howard, democracy was one big public fight and everyone should plunge into it. That's the only way, he said, for everyday folks to get justice - by fighting for it." About Howard Zinn, by Bill Moyer in Boston on 10/29/10. The tipping points, remember Zinn and what he said about how change can begin, pointing to a woman on the bus, Rosa Parks......

We need to get back to work.

Sheila I remember; all of it TY.

As a US citizen living abroad, I am continually aghast that Sarah Pallin has made as much progress in American politics as she has. The woman is an idiot, plain and simple. Why is it that even the average (religion-bound) voting citizen cannot see that simple truth?

Alfred anti-intellectualism in America goes far back. Re-read Washington Irving's 'The Legend of Sleepy Hollow'. TY.

Sooner or later we will take it back or we will see the end of the nation. There looks to me as if there is a finite amount of this kind of thing before it reaches critical mass. It happened in the 1860's so I believe that it will eventually happen again. For what it's worth it took a lot of attempts to destroy Rome.

Bobot thanks. I don't see this as dramatically.

Keith Ellison, the first Muslim member of Congress, won re-election with over 70% of the vote even as most of MN went Republican. Granted, he represents a district that includes Minneapolis which has the second largest Somali population in the world but they're far from a majority. I talked with many "average white people," even some committed Christians, who wouldn't consider voting against him.

It's a small glimmer of hope still alive, anyway.

Nerd Ellison apprears to be a bright, energetic guy and I'd've been very surprised had he lost. Thanks!

Well, I may have been a little overly emotional when I wrote that. Still think that sooner or later heads will bump.

Be afraid, be very afraid..........r

Republicans to exercise retraint and work for the common good? To cite my favourite Nigerian, Goodluck Jonathan!

Rosy I'm rarely afraid. Thanks!

Dandy w.o some restraint we'll see deranged men and women consider murder of political figures.

I dont know this to be the case, but have you considered that this might be bigger than a movement within American politics? 1600 years ago, or so, religion, most specifically Christianity, ruined the Roman Empire. After a thousand years in the dark, you could see that it was not just Constantine, and the barbarians, but a calcification of thought. We struggle today to have the intellectual openness that the ancients had. Something like "intelligent design" cant ruin Western Civilization, but the notion that belief and science are equal is corrosive to thought. I'm worried that we are being besieged by a much greater force than the Fundies. I'm worried about the Dummies.

Bill Thanks And yet I really do believe that even given the setbacks the arc of American History remains progressive.

Bill,
Part of the problem is that we aren't doing a good enough job differentiating why to believe in one vs. the other. The point isn't even what's true; the point is the process by which we reach our conclusions. Science is when you follow evidence where it leads you rather than when you try to prove a theory that was generated by faith rather than by evidence and we're not conscientious about making that point. The truth is that we're crappy at making our case to the opposition, or even to the middle, in general, in part because it bothers the Hell out of us that it's necessary in the first place. It's necessary.

I would amend that to "the arc of American History to date..." But then I am feeling very negative today. My thoughts are very much along the same lines as Bill's....

Tangential to your excellent post, here are couple of links to a journalist-author, Chris Hedges, who has some thoughts about the role of the liberal establishment in the current rise of the Tea Party.

Interview with the journalist that can be streamed to one's computer or iPod/iPhone:*
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2010/11/nov-0210---pt-3-american-liberalism.html

*Note that for iPhone/iPod one must down load the free CBC app.

Link to article by the Mr. Hedges:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_world_liberal_opportunists_made_20101025/P100/

kOSH IS ON THE MARK W HIS LAST COMMENT, TOO.

Blue I understand but remain very hopeful. The arc is long. Until I was a teen legal segregation was the norm.

Medi thanks so much for this!

What's going to stop them from using this tool when it actually seems to be working for them. If they're going to keep getting rewarded for it, it's hard to imagine them stopping it.

K.S.

I think I understand you. And I am fairly certain that we agree. But to underscore my point once, I am concerned not with the opposition within the political context, but rather from a wider view that there is any opposition at all to evidence based thinking. There is no alternative to evidence based reasoning. When we start consulting metaphysics to make grain grow, or build roads, or even to guide our public servants to make the best decisions, we are in error.

According to the American Humanist Association update, "47% of Tea Party adherents stated that they believe the Bible is the literal word of God, while 55% stated that they believe the U.S. is currently a Christian nation."

I've long suspected Americans view this is a Christian nation and not just Tea Party members, either; not much I can do about that. However, if that in turn leads to an assumption that non-Christians don't have "good" or "American" values, some of us are in deep do-do.

I think Bill/Kosh do agree and I w them.

Nikki yes, indeed. I don't think I am in error thinking a core of the TPers is a rather retrogressive religious world-view. Thanks.

Jonathan, "consider murder of political figures"? From what I've gleaned, the Secret Service has never been busier trying to stave of assassination attempts.

Duane I think we'll do alright.

Dandy those reports/numbers were very high at the start of the Obama admin;m they dropped off substantially. I am concerned, tho, that when these kinds of poeople win, it gives a certain license to certain types.

Some years ago I was stunned to discover the level of "belief" in Western European countries. Religious concepts which enjoy wide acceptance here in the states, were in the single digits in the U.K., France and Germany. The wide discrepancy made me wonder, what is wrong with them, or wrong with us? Why such a difference. I can't say that I know the answer, but I think I have been pointed to the trend by Joseph Campbell and Christopher Hitchens. When Christianity began in the Middle East, it travelled both East and West. It generally took hold in Europe, but they also fought centuries of wars over it. They are farther along in seeing how it creates impasse than we are in America. And in the Far East, it was brought into a much older civilization which already had libraries, science and wide literacy. I think America has been sheltered from, or is late in joining, the process that makes the case that magic does not exist. If that general theory holds, what comes next is a dark age on this continent. That's not a prediction, just a fun theory to kick around.

For what it's worth, the majority of Republican politicians aren't that worried about religion. They wrap themselves in it because they know that professing evangelical (read fundamentalist) faith is a good way to get elected. I'm not saying they're not religious, just that other considerations, such as promoting the interests of the wealthy over everyone else, are more important to them. The more problematic consideration is that so many people fall for it, and that so many people don't see the value of keeping faith separate from politics.

Bill fun ? lol .

Nanatehay yes theirs is a cynical use of the magical-thinking.

Yes, Jonathan. And ANTI-Religion, Atheism and Agnostics dominate the left and credo against the traditional right. That is why there is such a growing middle ground for citizens to profess their anger and disappointment in both extremes. Most of us are NOT either of those.

Cathy and I say what I do as a member of a Modern Orthodox Jewish Congregation. I hear you well and I think that a difference is that even while many leftists are, yes, anti-religious, per-se (I am not), they do not use religion or their being against it to scare and shame people into particular political voting patterns with implied and stated afterlife-oriented threats.
And trust me: I cannot march w many leftists on many issues if only bc so many antiSemites find a home among them.

Jonathan, I'm sure your concerns are shared by many. When political movements are informed by religious fanaticism, we get Savonarola in 15th century Florence, Cromwell in 17th century Britain, and Khomeini in 20th century Iran.

But let us remember the true etymology of "fundamentalist". It pertains to the part of the anatomy from which the utterances of these people issue.

Bill, the horrible consequences of religious extremism and especially religious schisms were not news to the Founding Fathers of the US. They were fairly recent history. Consider that as late as April 1746 a largely Catholic army, mostly Scottish Highlanders, supporting Charles Edward Stuart (aka Bonnie Prince Charlie) was defeated and then massacred on British soil, at the battle of Culloden. That ended the attempts of the Catholic Stuart dynasty to regain the British crown and left the Protestant Hanoverians in power. That was just one war (technically a rebellion) fought in Britain and Europe over the preceding centuries due to the Reformation. This was all the reason they needed to put separation of Church and State in the 1st Amendment.

tm thanks!

Gee Bee interesting/ty!

Again, yes, Jonathan. All points you make are well taken. In some circles, it is as scrutinized and criticized for being Roman Catholic as it is for being an Orthodox Jew. The group you reference as part of the extreme right, are judgmental and dangerous to the party, which is being lumped in with that ideology and not the fundamentals of the party. Another reason so many have exited the party to distinguish independence of political thought and not wear the labels of the religious right.

I wonder whether the return to the culture wars will harm the Republicans with fiscal conservatives in the long run. Despite all the attention the Tea Party candidates got during the campaigning, most of the extreme ones failed to get through last night. It was fiscal conservatives who came back to the Republican fold, after being alienated by Bush's spending. If the GOP doesn't stay focused on budget cutting, they might find themselves alone again. Of course it goes without saying that I'm opposed to budget cutting as an agenda. Debt is always a concern, but the economic problems run much deeper, and just cutting spending won't do the trick. Rated.

Cathy yes, 100%.

BOKO I tink that's right.

John I am soemwhat dismayed by the election results but I have been on the losing side of more elections than with that of thee winners!
Besides this election wasn't a wash. We didn't wake up this morning to Senators elect Sharon Angle or Christine O'Donnell! Califonia was a bright spot and there are others.
Well, now the Republicans have caught one of the cars they have been chasing. What will they do with it?

Dick I agree w you and to answer you they won't do a hell of a lot w what they have.

R. i just looked at a cbs site. 3 out of 7 major tea party candidates won. if you consider that this is a new movement, i guess this is a lot. if you realize that over 100 tea party candidates ran for office, it's a drop in the bucket. not all the republicans who won are in the tea party. in alaska, a write-in campaign seems to be winning over a tea party candidate. i am hoping this is the beginning of the end of sarah palin. i pretty much see this is as business as usual during a midterm election. the republicans have the house and cannot be the party of NO anymore. they are actually going to have to do something for the american people if they want to see a republican president in 2012, and/or if they want to take back both houses of congress. the senate can still block any whacko ideas the house may have.

I liked your ability to express it so simply here, Jon. Nice work. Rated

Bobbies and yes, '94 was worse

PW thanks so much!

"Part of the problem is that we aren't doing a good enough job differentiating why to believe in one vs. the other. "

kosher, i had to copy and paste the above because you are so right. we elect presidents who are centrists. if obama would just move a tiny bit to the left, one would see a big difference between the democratic party and the republican party. obama ran as a democrat, but he caved on things like "public option." no one is afraid of him. do you think this would have happened under lbj? forget about the vietnam war for a moment. lbj was feared. no one walked over this man. this is when the democratic party had guts. not that everything he did was right, but he showed moxie and guts, and with the exception of vietnam, he wielded his power for the good of the people.

today's democratic party is made up of wusses. maybe there are some who aren't, but no one can hear them. i like obama and will vote for him again in 2012 should he be the nominee, but he has to start getting down and dirty. the democratic party has many wonderful values, but one would not know that today. he has been too worried about what the republicans think about him. he kept reaching out and they kept slapping him down. he should have just told them to go screw themselves, and then helped them do just that.

the republicans play dirty. we may not like dirty politics, but if they are playing dirty, we have to get down with them and get dirty ourselves. it would be nice if we could stay above the fray, but when we do that, we lose.

mind you, obama has done a pretty good job so far. of course, it would be hard to know that with all the lies out there. people are upset about no jobs. well, those jobs went overseas and it was not the democrats who sent them there. when obama was elected, health care was a major issue because about 42 million americans were without health care. we instituted a health care bill, far from perfect, but at least something, and all of a sudden health care was not an issue anymore. the republicans had changed it to jobs. jobs were always important, but since you cannot create jobs out of thin air, obama was able to do health care and he ran on that too. he should have come out swinging, but he didn't. i don't know what his advisors were thinking, and i don't know what he was thinking. i do also feel that we have stupid people out there and even if they listen to what obama says, they don't seem to understand it.

as for the tea party, they went to the guts of how all too many americans feel, which, unfortunately, is not anything this country stands for. they called for a 2nd amendment remedy if they didn't get their way. in other words, the overthrow of our government. do they have a platform? no! do they have any ideas of how to better this country? no! people who are part of the tea party are angry at what the republicans did, and angry that obama hasn't cleaned up this mess yet, and now they have voted to put back in the very people who caused this mess. how smart can these people be?

Bobbies thank you for these add'l insights