I knew a teacher who gave up his profession because he kept getting lunch duty. I survived a few food fights, the kind where the kids throw their food at each other, when I had the duty. You make an excellent point here, Joan. Too often schools can seem like prisons--like the time-out rooms that are as silent as tombs.

I remember when my kids were in early elementary, and they were in a Montessori school even, that the lunch time was too rules oriented--crime and punishment. Parents banded together and got it changed by instituting a number of different protocols. One was that there were a corp of parent volunteers on hand for lunch duty so they could monitor noise level at the table level as they were there having lunch too. Music was introduced as you suggested, we also had a Suzuki violin curriculum at the school so the advanced students came in as part of their class on a rotating basis and played three days a week. But the biggest force for change is the same all across the country...that when a large number of parents get together, and agree on a course of action by consensus, it is the way things get changed.

Sarah, thank you for reading my rant.

bbd, I just love the idea of students playing the violin at lunch.

Kids need care. They don't need regulation. Kids need confidence, not punitive actions. To inspire greatness in each of them, you need a great leader, creative, in tune, not a warden. Just my thoughts. Wish I could inspire. Make it dinner theater....just a suggestion.

It amazes me how many adults will attribute adult-style attributes to children, and then punish them for it. I'm happy for the children who are within your sphere of influence!

so funny (and sadly true). i laughed out loud in the first sentence "Attica". The only thing missing from this is the kids banging their metal cups against the bars in protest. Maybe for Halloween??

√√ MOC

both you and barry have the right ideas. at my g/daughter's (private) school, lunch has all parents and the lunchroom staff, no teachers, and the kids follow rules very similar to what you write in your piece, joan. they eat and talk quietly and ask for fruit and drinks (which the parents pour for them). lunch times are staggered times by grade. i've been there to help, and it seems to work just fine. a megaphone? really? sheesh.

Amen, sister!
I hope if parents don.t sit with their children, at least teachers could.
When I worked at a nursing home, I sat with residents, and loved it. They outlawed it, later. *sigh*

Sheila, I think we are going about it all wrong.

Bell, I am such a puny piece of the puzzle.

MOC, I shudder to think about Halloween at the asylum.

Candace, now see? That is civility. And a nice time too.

dianaani, "sigh" indeed.

If the, er, warden had seen my lunch table in high school, he would have had a coronary. Jeez, let kids be kids. Don't they want kids to enjoy going to school? Or is the best the kids can hope for is time off for good behavior?

So is the noise thing because it is an inside lunchroom?

It so important to sit and eat with kids, show them how. It should be done at home in your kitchen but it wouldn't hurt to have school do the same. Sounds good to me Joanie, carry on.

This is funny, but of course not really.
Idiots. Can't they tell innocent exhuberance from...whatever
damn fear they are projecting onto these poor prisoners?
Sure they need to learn their etiquette, God knows they won't get it
at home unless their mom is a stickler for the "FAMILY DINNER".
But eating is...fun. Shared eating? Oh, very Christian indeed, as
well as a mainstay of any other culture you can think of.

Idiots. Fearmongers, is what they are.
Idiots!
I am getting riled up, here...
If they instill stress and disobeyance and stomach cramps
into the kids while they chow down,
who knows what damage will be done?
Idiots...

There are so many children now who don't even get to sit with their own families for meals anymore. It's a wonder they can't enjoy themselves, eating a meal and enjoying a conversation that goes with it. I could go but I will stop myself from raising my blood pressure. Great relevant post. -R-

How did we come to this? My memories of public school second grade lunch are so different. A smile from Mrs. Mailey, the cafeteria lady, was what we carried as arsenal into the cavernous room to amp up on Hostess cupcakes. Maybe we shot straw papers at each other, but that was the extent of it.
Joan, go create your ripple effect. It might take a few more generations to be recognized as the Mrs. Mailey of your era.

If life is high school, the way we live is best expressed in the school cafeteria. No wonder things have deteriorated in this country.

This story was sheer Dickens, with the Cafeteria Warden playing Mr. Creakle. Horrible! The elementary age kids may be resilient and survive, but by high school, when I see them in my resource classroom, many are full of rage, and defiant of even the most gentle direction.

I got pulled aside by one of the full-time teachers when, as a substitute teacher, I accompanied my classes to lunch and plopped myself in the center of their table to eat my sandwich. "You don't have to eat with them, Ms. B." "I know. I enjoy them."
Death stares ensued.

Lezlie

It's good they have you!

Brought up memories of my mother's dreaded turns at lunch duty at my elementary school. She just hated it.

But I loved your story.

My homeschooled kids don't know what they're missing.....or how good they've got it!

Niles and I find children to be quite insufferable. You confirmed my worst fears. You should try visiting one of my group sessions some time if you want to witness complete anarchy:)

You go around and pass out rewards for those quietly eating, perhaps ice cream bars. Those making a ruckus get no ice cream bars. Mr. or Ms Microphone should be sent to the silent table or have the microphone jammed up sideways into his or her anal cavity. Use any simple behavior mod. program and the place would be pleasant within a week. Bring in the music yourself without asking. Get some parents or elderly volunteers to come in and sit with the kids. Don't allow this abuse to continue. Why is it always the teachers with the biggest mouths who yell--No talking! Get 'em Joan.

I can so relate to this. So so so so so so SO relate to this.

Cranky, this way doesn't work, and teaches nothing.

keri, it is because there are over a hundred kids packed into a room with teachers who are trying to control them instead of using lunchtime as a teaching moment too.

Thank you Rita. "Carry on" is all I can do.

James, your comment is spot on. You've expressed my irritation perfectly.

You put me in mind of a shrike of a third grade teacher who once tried to force me to eat, as a 9 yr old, canned, wan, green beans. She hadda buy new shoes.

Love this post. r.

Civility for Lunch sounds just great to me. Eat on knowing I like your POV.

Not as bad as in Dickens, but bad enough. There are ways with children other than strictly authoritarian ways, as you obviously understand. But we still constantly encounter strictly authoritarian people. A child myself, I have simply chosen to hide from them the best I can for the rest of my life.

Oh my goodness, Joanie H! You have some great ideas how to make lunch more pleasant for everyone...hope things settle down as the new school year goes on!

I agree with Brassawe. My Granddaughter attended a Montessori school pre grammar school. bbd?
I suggested a chain saw at lunch.
The tables should all face walls.
No looking at windows or faces.
Invite guest Speakers to classes.
Bring a apiary bee colony to class.
Teach beekeeping 101 - honey wine.
When it's not Happy Hour you break?
Breakdance, jitterbug, and break chairs?
If grouchy you/me break chairs on heads.
`
When it's Happy Hour? Sit in a dunce corner.
Write graphic drawing on the walls? Nooses?
Guest Speaker tell war stories? Dead humans,
German Shepherd that was trained to detect?
Land minds.
This is a tease.
No taser kids.
Train them.
Cultivate
Beauty
Silence
Golden
Love too
Adore awe
No smoke
corn cob
no pot
behave
hi Joan
Thanks

One of the ways we used to divert ourselves in the cafeteria was to launch sweet potatoes onto the ceiling, using a fork as a catapult. The wonders of science will calm even the most agitated young mind!

Oh Joan, I am going to have to drop in at Jacob's school at lunch - I just assumed they were having a nice relaxing meal and getting to talk etc. Music at lunch is an excellent idea BTW. We do it at home, and there's no reason they couldn't do that at schools.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think you've mentioned this barbaric lunchtime ritual once before. I can't stand the whole idea of it. Thanks goodness my school just has them talk quietly in the cafeteria. They need a place to unwind, just like the teachers do in the staff room.

If you are going to make small children weep with despair you should at least let them play team sports while they do it. Oh wait: there's no baseball in crying.

God, this is bringing up some repressed memories from my short lived career as a middle school para professional. In the SPED classroom. "My" kids had to eat at their own table and then I had to constantly separate them while detemining who was actually eating...considering the drugs (prescribed) these kids were on, a full stomach after morning meds at home was vital. Plus, ostracized much? Plus, did I need a break from them, and them from me? Music - classical and otherwise - worked well in our classroom when it was time for reflection for the day.
Anyway...this is great writing about something we all need to think about.
I feel a post coming on...!!!! Keep up the good work, Joan.

When I was substitute teaching, lunch duty was the bane of my existence . . . for all the reasons you describe. It didn't help that I didn't know the kids . . . or maybe it did - I didn't have pre-conceived ideas about who was a troublemaker and who wasn't. That's a whole 'nother rant, though. Great post, Joan.

It might help if students were treated to political leaders a bit more inspiring than trash like Maxine Waters and Sheila JL.

You know, it's odd. I remember eating with my daughter on many an occasion. You nailed the aspect of a prison lunch time. And a school lunch time. My daughter starting doing really poorly in school at about the 6th grade. Her cried out in frustration complaint? "Dad, it's like a damn prison in there!" I started homeschooling shortly there after.

When I went to school, we ate outside when it wasn't raining. We had no cafeteria (K-6 school approximately 1500 students in Napa, CA, circa 1966-69) and we had no troubles eating our brought from home lunches. We talked as much as we wanted, we sat where we wanted (as long as we were in the lunch area.) Trading parts of your lunch for someone else's was a common practice and oddly, mostly trash was in the trash can at the end of lunch with the occasional Tuna on Rye no sane child would ever eat, nor any sane parent actually produce for their kid.

When I moved to Hawaii, I had to eat in the Cafetorium. This is a cafeteria cum auditorium (much like the plethora and staple of "modern" schools with their multi-use areas to reduce cost.) It was in those hallowed grounds where I experienced the drill sergeant mentality of lunch room duty. It was also where I first ever experienced any and all of the food fights I had the luck (good or bad, take your pick) to be involved in.

Is there a correlation with being cooped up and monitored with military (and to their defense it was a school on a Navy base) authority or -- in more realistic parlance -- being observed by the guards while the prisoners engaged in a large scale activity sure to elicit trouble? Eating. I say there is.

Back up to high school and back in California. We ate outside most of the time and when it was raining, just like in Elementary school, we ate at our tables in Home Room. Most of us brought our lunches and those that bought at the cafeteria usually chose the "box lunch."

The Box Lunch is such an excellent, if not superbly implemented, idea. A sandwich (usually there was Ham/Cheese, Turkey/Cheese, PBJ [either grape or strawberry, the two most common flavors] or a Hamburger [you put the condiments on yourself and the lettuce, tomato and onion were separately wrapped to pick up at the time of purchase]), a snack (usually something like a small bag of Potato Chips, French fries [with the hamburger if you chose], a dill pickle and a snack of a fruit [usually an Orange, Apple a half Banana or occasionally a Pear].

The box lunch was a preferred favorite at High School, even though we had a full serve cafeteria we could eat in or not -- usually we ate outside. This means we did what we've done since kindergarten: We talked, made jokes, traded food, ate and enjoyed our time from study and the time we could eat and just be us.

We had yard monitors, teachers on Lunch Duty. We talked with them as often as not and they were't there to keep us quiet, but to look for obvious signs of trouble. You know, the odd argument that turned into a wrestling, pushing or punching incident, and the requirement to observe that students didn't ditch class via scooting on out the fence or scaling it.

Why is it so different today? Why are schools more and more like an interment camp or a minumum security prison? What do we gain from such distrustful and authoritarian behavior? I am glad you wrote this. I just wish more people would see it and then reflect on it instead of handing out those tired ass sappy non-responsive "asnwers" that they think are supposed to solve the issue as a point of discussion.

-r-
(I'm beginning to think we need a scale of rating as well as a willingness to rate more than most already do [or don't])

There are some great things private schools do that can be done by public schools. Like lunch civility and having smaller tables with teachers. Sadly, there is no civility for lunchtime for adults in almost any profession- expecting to do all your daytime chores, phone calls, banking, and trip to fast food in your half hour- or sit at your desk and eat while working through.
The Scandinavians also got this right. Everyone gets a civilized lunch hour, and no one is expected to blow it off for any reason. They also get civilized breaks. I remember having lunch at school when I was in kindergarten, we were there for a while, and everyone brought there food in, sat and ate their sandwiches, then went out to play. Why do we have to make everything so damn traumatic?

Until children have freedom of movement throughout the day in our schools, nothing is ever really going to change.

Oh, does this bring back memories of my first teaching job. Lunch duty made me want to put my head in a vat of poison! The kids were allowed to talk but it was one teacher against 240 kids. You had to stay on your toes every second or they'd get so out of control. We tried music at Christmastime and that really worked, I don't know why we didn't do it all the time. I still have nightmares about baked potato day! (food fights.)

Lunch time like recesses are not as much fun as they should be for kids. Enjoying a meal and conversation, or breaking bread, as some cultures call it should be a time of nourishing and nurturing. You're one of the ones that know it Joan.

The cafeteria Nazi needs to be replaced. You seem like a good candidate, Joanie.

Wow! Reminds me of Catholic school in "the olden days".

Joan,
This is funny and sad on so many levels. When I taught kindergarten, I was the rule breaker who sat down at the table with my students. I thought it was important for our classroom community, and I did it even when I was not assigned lunch duty. Those were some of the most important teachable moments for everyone--me, the students and the other teachers too.

Christine, thanks for reading, and don't let your blood pressure go up. I know the feeling.

Mrs. Mailey is my kind of woman, dirndl.

Lea, yep. And we start the insanity so early!

Snippy, I know you know this first hand. I'm always glad when you come by.

"Death stares ensued." Oh Lezlie, I can just picture it. xo

I love the image of kind Joan H. risking it and fumbling the juice box to speak to a hurting someone relegated to the silent table. Mr. Monitor maybe does not get that in part, rowdy behavior is natural resistance to authority. A little humanity might garner a different response. As it is, they are being trained to be little badasses, who may turn into big badasses later on.

Joan,
Your problem is that you see children as human beings. Most administrators hate that. Situations like that make my stomach hurt.
I'm sorry-I hope you are able to change it. Great post.

I guess the "silent table" doesn't have the same ambiance as the "quiet car."

civility is at an all time low. and may in fact be disappearing. it's routine behavior to be rude, loud, exhibitionistic, nasty. we see it all the time. television glorifies it. gives drunken idiotic children television series' and calls them reality.

children are not raised with values, and by values I mean manners, consideration, reasonableness. they are raised by television shows. I figure this is because parents barely have time to think, much less to reason with their children. raising children takes time. takes energy. who has it?

so it's get out there and get it and shut the fuck up/get out of my face/nastynastynasty.

we're lost. someone better come find us soon.

where is my comment?

did anyone see my comment? I left it here.

oh there it is. :)

Jeeez.. and people wonder why kids drop out of school? They don't understand Teacher burnout?

Lunch definitely shouldn't feel like a visit to Alcatraz! For the kids or their teachers.

rated

I wonder how many of these children enjoy a low key, pleasant meal at home? My students used to eat lunch in the classroom and as the teachers on duty walked from class to class, control was minimal. I often ate my lunch at my desk so that chaos was kept at bay. I have always felt parents should spend time in the school. Sadly, too many parents show no interest.
I learned to have classical music playing when my students were writing tests and doing seatwork. It had an amazing calming effect..... once they got used to it.

IMO, the greatest problem with schools and children is that children aren't prepared for school by parents, how to act, whats expected, and their responsibility. Add to this schools are receiving less and less funding, which means less and less staff available for lunchroom supervising. Teachers aren't miracle workers. They work with what they get and they're getting less and less. I'm more surprised by the positives than I am the negatives. That we're even educating kids is a minor miracle.

But will they be equipped to compete with the children from other countries who are taught education is the primary road to a good life, to prosperity, to contributing to society and their families, not a place to emote, act out or party. These kids see it as their job to get educated and they're getting educated. Our kids...I don't know what is going on anymore.

I think about this: in many countries, particularly in third world countries, schools are minimally funded and children come to them ready to soak it up.

I'm thinking this is a failure of the American family. That kids can't sit down and have lunch is the least of it. They don't understand what it is they're doing or why. Our society as a whole is so affluent and perverse, they don't have a clue.

Institutional behavior in prison, schools, hospitals and the military is very real and depressing. There has to be a better way!!

You think this is sad, you should watch the series, Kindergarten on Link TV about kindergarten in China--breaks your heart.

Very well-put. I remember having to go to the "silent table" a few times. That was when I was in middle school - having such a punishment for younger kids seems excessive (not that I think such a punishment should exist at all, for any grade level). I love your ideas about classical music and sharing a meal with teachers. If only the school board would listen to you. Do you think there'd be a way for you to propose this to them?

At a school where my kids attended silence was demanded and there was this stop light contraption that would be green when the noise was acceptable, turn yellow when it was getting noisy, then red whereupon the principal would start screaming at the students to shut up. I mostly heard the principal. When are the children supposed to talk to their friends and socialize? They are not allowed to very often in class.

I'm always saddened when I hear about schools that don't allow kids to talk at lunch. What a sad, depressing life for the kids in it.

As a former teacher, I've both sat with adults and my classes at lunch. Both have good and bad points. Sitting with adults is good because you can have adult conversation, and get sympathy for how your day has been.

Sitting with kids is good because you learn a lot about them in a 25 minute lunch. I used to sit with the kids when I knew the drama at the adult table was going to be high, or when I thought there was tension among the students.

Oy. I appreciate that lunch shouldn't be recess, but it should be among other things a social exercise, and not one in solitary confinement. I don't remember our school cafeteria being particularly rowdy or regimented and we (mostly) turned out just fine. I could have done without the stewed tomatoes, however.

It is so sad when teachers of all people forget that they are responsible for Educating children... actual tiny humans who need guidance and nurturing, not microphones and "quiet tables." It's not only in private school where teachers can teach by example. Unless they lack the brains and motivation to use everyday manners.

Great post to get me this riled up.

I agree; lunchtime at school shouldn't look like lunchtime at prison. When my kids were in elementary school, I spoke with a few "prison guards" who felt lunch duty shouldn't be part of their teaching day. I'm not sure if that's what sets the tone, but it certainly would be refreshing to bring in some outside volunteers to mix it up. Great, thought provoking piece.

This problem was solved at my daughter's elementary school. First, the tables were round and seated about 12-16 people each. Each table consisted of 10-14 children and 2 adult staff members. The adults who ate with the students weren't just teachers, but administrators, coaches, the school nurse, etc. Every week, adults changed places as did the kids (though the kids staying within a year or two of their grade). The first time I saw it, my jaw dropped, mostly because the solution was so obvious. And as the year went on, the kids got to know every teacher in the school ... and vice versa.

I'm with Oryoki Bowl on this one, but then again I'm currently reading nickel and dimed by barbara ehrenreich

Great piece, Joan. It reminds me of my public elementary school experience growing up in L.A. I remember food fights, the noise, the disgusting food and the I-could-care-less attitude on the part of the teachers who had to supervise us.

Wow. I can think of no better way to turn kids into hoodlums than to treat them like hoodlums.

And btw, thank you for not conforming to that imbecilic program of prisonification of children.

Is "prisonification" a word?

Thank you everyone for reading my rant and for taking the time to comment. I'm reassured to see that most of us are thinking the same way. The question is how to suggest some changes. People are so much more comfortable with the status quo...

@nanatehay, you're welcome. And if prisonification wasn't a word before, it is now.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this; what you describe is typical lunchtime activity in a public school cafeteria. I used to go in and eat with my kids and part of the problem is they have so little time for lunch. They're rushed through it and then herded out to the playground. And did you try the food? I think prison rations must taste better.

@Margaret, last year I planned to eat a school lunch every day for a month and write about it. It was so incredibly unappetizing, I scrapped the whole idea.

Excellent. I went to private schools and public schools. How I loathed the public ones-- so much dumb rules and seriousness and just this overall lack of humanity.
I wish you would run for some office, Joanie, cause I want to vote on your music in the cafateria initiative.
This post inspired me to write the peice I was planning about music in the courtrooms. Seriously. I recently got this very cool seeming judge, and his clerk actually has soft music playing by his desk.Hiliarous to hear and makes me think how cool this judge must be.

Thank the gods stealing baby carrots isn't a capital crime. It isn't, is it? Yet?

We don't have lunch duty, it's in our contract. But I often have lunch with small groups of kids in my classroom. They beg for the opportunity. Our cafeteria doesn't sound quite like yours - the cacophony is madness, and it's not too pleasant either. It is possible to manage large groups of children without the "Rikkers Island" attitude. It has to be. I hated lunch time as a kid. Hmmm...wonder if this is contributing to any eating disorders?

Good story, Joan. And I totally agree. Are these children being trained to be a generation of automotons? I believe the answer is, unfortunately, yes. So sad. -Rated

Enjoyed the gentle humor. Sadly, too true. You give me hope though.

Wow, that is literally old school. The First Lady focuses on children and obesity when really some of the points you mentioned should really be the focus: how to appreciate food, slowly, leisurely, and in peace. (And of course, better quality food - lord knows what they fed us in those cafeterias. Scary stuff.)

Wow, and the school year just started . . . .

Good luck, Joanie!

Wow… I do not know what to say.
(I have posted a link on FB).

Amen, and amen. You have a witness, here. I actually stopped working at a private school years ago because they had "silent lunch," which totally freaked me out. The principal who took over my son's elementary school the year after he left used a megaphone, and was big on taking recess away from the badly behaved - because those kids REALLY don't need time to run off some steam. There has to be some time and some place in a school day for relaxation and freedom, and you know I don't think eating should be associated with fear and tension.

Egads, this is depressing.
My stomach hurts at the very thought of being at such a lunchtime.
As for Family Dinners? It's not one size fits all for quality family time, and some family dinners are just as much a nightmare for the child.

I can't imagine that at an elementary school of all places. At first, reading this, I blanked back to high schoo (late 60s early 70s). A group of us wanted to sit together. Tables couldn't be put together so we scrunched the chairs together around one. No one worried about the noise level, we even had a juke box. I remember one upper classman moounting a table as his friends punched in the numbers for the theme from Hawaii Five-O, the upperclassman then commenced surfing sans water. There are other tails.

I haven't been in an elementary cafeteria since I had to quit subbing in 2003, but there were no problems like this. I liked that the tables were round and not rectangular, but nothing was out of hand. Last Friday, my daughter and I went to the Book Fair at my granddaughter's school. There are parent volunteers for lunch and it was lunch hour while we were at the book fair in the library down the hall. One of the mothers from the book fair walked down to the cafeteria and back while we were there. She was shaking her head as she came back while I was writing my check. From what I could gather, someone was playing warden rather than supervisor.

I hate that it is an unpleasant experience. Maybe, since my daughter works, they should let grandma volunteer where mommy can't.