I think non-violent communication is at the heart of resolving any kind of conflict. I stay away from violent communications, here and elsewhere.

Thank you for walking the fine lines on this. I hope it strikes home. That said, I still find it amazing how mostly respectful this community is – even as it’s grown. Wonderful place, really.

Joan I am guilty of all the things you so artful articulated here, specifically with one person who ironically I agree with much of the time but find personally arrogant and foul. There is no rational reason for my hostility when I could easily ignore her however I suppose that's part of the evolution of a newbie blogger.

In an effort to grow-up...and use my inside voice when it's more useful I am going to delete my recent post and yield to your deft hand.

Open Salon is a wonderful playground for adults and you're right we should act like it rather than subscribe to hateful banter. I think I needed that message...seriously.

Wow, Harry, thanks. You made my night. I did read your post, and I agreed with most of it -- and I wasn't really thinking of it when I was writing, at all -- another 3 were on my mind -- but yes, it was part of the chain of reaction that was spreading, making all of us act like less than we want to be. No comment on deleting your post; major thanks for your comment here and all your great writing and warmth.

I relish the power I have as a member of the OS community to with hold my comment, and I exercise it - if I do say so myself - rather liberally.

I believe there is very little bloggers can add to the conversation about flashpoints such as the Palestinian Question or the proper role of the US government in settling it. Not that I would wish to prevent anyone from having their say, but really, after all this time, everything worth saying has already been said.

Joan, I applaud your willingness to enter this fray as a vox popularis and I support your call for restraint around this issue. No one at OS is likely to evoke an opinion or articulate a solution to the age-old conflicts that have defined life in the Middle East for centuries. Let us resolve to spend more time contemplating cake and naked frisbee, tube tops and 25 things we could do to make our children better prepared to accept these cultural challenges than we are.

I'm new here on OS, but I have read many of the blogs that you are referring to.
Look, we all step into a hornets nest sometimes. I remember I posted some things on Salon some months back that I regretted immediately. I spent a long time meditating on the attitude I took, and how I could have expressed myself better. Isn't that the point of places like Salon and OS? We're all a work in progress. I firmly believe that reading, listening, and writing make us better. As far as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict goes, well, I say the more dialogue the better (as long as it stays dialogue :) ) If OSers can't have a vigorous (if not contentious) adult conversation about it then perhaps all hope is lost.

Thanks, Lonnie, I exercise the same power quite a lot -- and it does feel powerful! -- and I regret not doing that here. I'm a little bit with T-bucket -- more posts about love, spirituality, parents, sex and cake! But not entirely -- we are smart political folks, I bet we can solve some things. Maybe even this one.

But tonight, it sure didn't seem that way! MJwycha, I agree we should keep trying: I was only talking about a particular kind of post that I felt -- I could be wrong -- was designed to force people to choose sides, not open their minds.

Hi Joan,
I try to steer clear of commenting on incendiary posts. Some are honest and sincere others maybe not. I stay clear, not so much because I don't have an opinion, but more because I don't think my opinion is likely to sway any readers one way or the other. It seems, at the end of the day, no one has given an inch on their stance.
Not unlike the situation in the entire Middle East, not just the Israeli situation. The greatest political thinkers of our time have weighed in. I don't see a lot of progress over the years. I hate to think their aren't solutions available. It just seems to me that empathy and compromise are missing from the solution equation.

I almost changed my name to Apple Sauce Gesture. The title attracted my attention, Nonviolence. I love to be silent. Yet, if Ya shush up at the wrong time, Ya feel as if Ya at the center of the universe. An explosion!
`
The hug ideas? Sometimes a hug may
feel like apple sauce? The Gesture may
invite a luminous sensation in a heart.
I'
d
hug Joan and some people in a heartbeat.
Guess this place may be warm hospitality?
I
f
not, I will take my mule and heehaw home.

I'm testing my new toy. Joy.
Wear a T- shirt with Misery?
S- ill-y. T- shirt with Silence.
Incendiary S- hurt. No peace.
What sad testimony:`Whine.
Wine spills on a T-shirt's fine.
Why some folk scream:`hates.
Why wish to destroy someone?
What misery behold!` Scream?
Offer flowers and bee wax light,
angel cake and hots apple sauce.
Ya-T- shirt with ice cream stain.
Yummy. Hug ice cream T-shirts!
Just two comments a hug or else.

Joan, I am so proud you wrote this. I, too, am with T-bucket. I just hate to see anymore fellow OSer's leave over posts that insight problems. I just don't comment on them. I look, do a quick read, and just click on another. I do want this site to become a place to be attcking someones right to free speech. I hope this site does heal a little. There are too many hurtful things going on.

I do think we can all heal, even as we grow.
Thanks fro this post, Joan, Wading in is hard with a war going on.

I have watched the flames from the sidelines for weeks now, silently, but last night, seeing that headline on the top of the most read list sent a chill through me, and I commented mainly to thank those who stood up against the pull of a cleverly written post. I was literally shaking and I slept four hours because of the undertone.

Where is the line? Shouldn't racism and antisemitism -- even veiled -- be called out? Is there not a a point when to keep silent is just wrong? That is a lesson learned, I think, long before OS came into being.

I will go back to ignoring these blogs, but last night's headline just crossed the line.

Israel is far and away the topic of least reason, exceeding evolution or even abortion in that regard. A lot of it boils down to how people see OS: what they are here for and what they are willing to forego for the sake of community. I, for one, am not particularly entertained or impressed by rants on either side of this issue, nor by watching people say ugly things to one another. Earlier in life, I sort of enjoyed that sort of thing but not anymore. I would rather find a group hug, already in progress. But that very impulse makes me think you may be preaching to the choir here. (I mean, here I am.) I will quite gladly pledge not to loose my weapons on fellow OSers--weapons of mass deduction that I do indeed possess--but that is an easy pledge for me to keep, because I am conflict averse. It may be harder for those who are here primarily to argue.

Joan, you did not leap into a "futile flame". You did a good thing. "Nonviolent resistance" is something that gets overlooked often. We default to extremes in a polemic frequently, and an issue like this can rage for millennia. As a writer once said, "the ultimate conflict is not between right and wrong, but between right and right". This is not resolvable from within. The answer lies without, and a large part of that answer is non violence. If someone gives, everyone will gain. Whatever the opposite of a pyrrhic victory is, this will be that.

One of the things I have learned in my digital life is that you never "win" anything by trying to beat someone into submission in an Internet discussion thread.

In local political circles, there's an adage: 'The two biggest wastes of time are talking to your friends or your enemies." It's used when we're talking about canvassing or phone banking. When you have a list of 100 people you need to get through, the people you want to spend your time talking to, engaging in dialogue with, are the undecideds, the people whom you might convince to vote for your guy. Talking to your "friends" wastes valuable time you could spend finishing your list. Talking to your enemies does the same, because the former is already voting your way, and the latter never will.

None of this is to say we should not engage in discussion with people we agree too much with or disagree too much with. Trading ideas, and supporting our friends are both important to a community like this one. But the point here is to recognize that there's a water's edge here -- you're probably not going to change the mind of someone whose mind is set in opposition to you. So if you're commenting with that objective in mind, you're bound to do nothing but create anger and strife. If you're posting because you can't wait to see the reaction you'll get, and salavating at the prospect of smacking around the people who you expect will disagree with you and beating them into agreeing with you, you are not provoking relevant discussion, you are fomenting argument for its own sake.

I think it's pretty easy to spot people who are trying to "win" something, and I avoid them. Sometimes it's just a passionate person who can't see the forest for the trees. Usually those poeple can be reasoned into discussing things more rationally, but that often takes more time and can cause hurt feelings.

But there are people who need the acrimony because they need the attention that comes from being someone's nemesis. Very often to them it is a game. These people just need to be ignored entirely, because anything you do will just feed their need.

I don't know what to think about the Middle East quite frankly. I'm not bold enough to beleive that I have the answers to an ethno-religious conflict that has spanned decades and killed thousands and has created atrocities and hypocrisy and strife on both sides. I've avoided the conversation because I really have nothing to add to that discussion that would actually be new, informative, different, enlightening or eloquent. Which means I should shut up. It's how I usually decide when to speak and when not to. And it's worked pretty well to keep me out of trouble for the most part.

Right on. Peace is the best and hardest part. Thank you, Joan.

Sometimes one can't help bumping into someone.
But there are limits to those who bump to impugn.
To delete innocent post makes people feel crumby.
Ay never post on the big-g*g-blog, if a law says, no?
Hubris seems right to 'um-self, Justice weighs heart.
I just get cranky as a stinky goat when deleted @ GG.
Why delete my most nonviolent comments? Phooey.
Ay okay. I save all deleted comments for the rain day.

hear, here.

I want to engage on OS about Israel, its right to survive, and non-violent resistance as the one best path towards success for the people of Gaza. But I fear to post on it. I know how to give and take, and know the difference between posts by rageaholics and real(er) people. I know it when i see it: thinkers, whether i agree with them or not; posters with anger and deep passion, who nonetheless allows me my humanity.

But even here on OS one must gird up, be ready for it. Not quite there yet, but after posting to and managing forums for 20 years, I must say OS is the only place I would even consider it.

You write with knowledge, with care and personal vulnerability, and in fact set a standard on OS (I have read others cite it, and agree). Thanks for that.

I agree with Lea Lane when she says:

"... seeing that headline on the top of the most read list sent a chill through me, and I commented mainly to thank those who stood up against the pull of a cleverly written post. I was literally shaking and I slept four hours because of the undertone.

Where is the line? Shouldn't racism and antisemitism -- even veiled -- be called out? Is there not a a point when to keep silent is just wrong? That is a lesson learned, I think, long before OS came into being."

I am becoming increasingly distressed by a subtle and not so subtle anti-Semitic bent of some of the posts, and some of the comments. It's certainly not that I cannot tolerate the heat from a blistering attack on my ideas or myself. I've worked on the internet since literally before the introduction of the world wide web; I've become virtually flame proof.

The mere fact that anyone thought he or she could write a post entitled "Jews!" and not be disparaged by the rest of the community is extremely disturbing. It creates an air of hostility and intolerance that is frankly surprising to find on OS.

I wish that people would use a rule of thumb: try replacing the word "Jews" or "Israelis" in your post or comment with the name of another ethnic group or another country. Does the post or comment still sound OK, or does it sound like a racial, ethnic or national slur? If it's OK, throw it into the discussion; it will be entirely appropriate in an intellectual discussion. Does it sound like a slur when you change the identity of the subject? Then ask yourself why it is acceptable to talk about Jews and Israelis in ways that you would not consider using to talk about anyone else.

Thank you. Really. Quite honestly, I'm feeling a bit queasy and not so sure how to take the latest hate posts. This post I WILL rate.

I love a "good" political argument as well as the next person. I like the way you have brought to the front the need for civility in these arguments. We all can agree to disagree at times; but we can do it in such a manner respecting the other person. Venom has no place in a discussion of important issues that need vetting in a public arena such as OS. Hurrah! for your courage to stand guard against those snakes in the grass whose soul purpose is to get under you skin and bring you to their level incivility. I am new to OS, and so far I like the general feel of the place and intend to hang around.

Joan,
Thank you for posting on this with such a clear regard for the difference that Open Salon represents in the blogosphere. I have no personal experience of other blog sites but understand that these flame wars are the common way. We are fortunate to have editors like you who care how OS develops, our wise clown in Freaky Troll, and our wise elder T-Bucket. (And also Lonnie who works for non-violence in his pink tube top.) Civility, which promotes the discourse, is valued.
Like other posters here, I have worried that OS would evaporate as we become more open; however, I have changed my thinking as I see how strong and influential the OS culture actually is. I have seen new posters come in with guns blazing and watched as posters come alongside and mentor and support them. I doubt that in other sites the helpfulness and generosity that is evident here exists elsewhere.
For my part, I was involved in a kidnapping at Nanatehay's site which was great fun for all involved. I will also post a new comment story today.
Thank you.
Stephanie

Non-violent resistence is not a passive act.

It's kind of like taking herbs for a cold instead of NyQuil. It often does take longer---but in the end---it's more powerful.

So the answer to your question, Joan, is: Yes.

I agree with Leah (as always). Last night's piece in question (now mercifully off the Most Read Feed, consigned to cyberdustbin of historybecause I don't think people were rating it) crossed many lines. Anti-semitism for one, intelligence/stupidity for another. Reminded me of the divine Jamie Lee Curtis to Kevin Kline in Fish Called Wanda:
JLC: I've had dresses with higher IQ. You think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?
KK: Apes don't read philosophy.
JLC: Yes they do. They just don't understand it.

Liz's comment is precisely to the point (also as always). Adult conversions are rare, excepting Saul on his way to Damascus (how's that for a provocative example?). I read and reread people on OS who IMO are speaking in authentic voices. I've expressed this view on Rob's (another poster who's always on the side of the angels) seminal "expert" post. As long as the writers are depicting their truth, arguing is pretty much pointless.

That said, if lines are crossed (abuse, hate speech, persistent spam - especially if pernicious etc. ) many of us DO speak out, THEN put the offender in the penalty box, NO GO zone, permanent Ignore, whatever.

Dr. Amy, also as usual, is "talking her book". Frank's post was disparaged (and more) by many posters. Michael Fox, critical mess, Robin Sneed, Padraig Colman and yours truly among others. And punches were not pulled: "ignoramus" "anti-Semite" "moral stupidity" were phrases that come to mind. It so happens that many of these same posters have taken serious issue with your posts as well, Doc. Perhaps that should tell you something.

Good post, Joan. Keep the Aspidistra Flying. Btw, Tony Judt's article on the Six Day War in the July 2002 New Republic (I'd hotlink it, but the darned comment editor is bouncing external links :-( ) is a short but brilliant piece on our topic du jour.

WOOF

I'll put on some nice tea...

There was a kerfuffle about Israel? And no-one invited me? Wassup witchu people? :P

Joan, I understand the emotional sentiment you express here and agree with it. I'm having a bit of a harder time understanding what you are trying to accomplish from a practical standpoint.

You *appear* to council not bringing up controversial topics because some people will express themselves in offensive ways.

You *appear* to take some pride in OS as something that will heal people.

Here's one other thing I think you should think about. Some non-trivial number of the people contributing to the things you don't like are from your base of readers. They are here because they read Salon.com and then came to Open Salon. As an editor who brought them here and tries to guide the culture of the site, is it really your best opinion that ignoring the behavior in hopes that it will go away is the thing to do?

Might an alternative be to recommend that the people who take pride in having good solid debate on tough issues make a point to comment on offensive posts so that the base of readers who are reasonable can establish a culture for the site that drives out the unreasonable.

I ask as a serious question.

It always begins with the war of words; physical violence follows. We need to choose our words very carefully in the first place. I have many poems on the topic. I am a member of Grandmothers for Peace. Of course, religion has spawned our worst wars and we are arguing--in my view--about a man-made construct, 'God and heaven,' which only exists in our minds. The real issue is property and who will own and inhabit it.

The "self healing properties of the OS" is the very reason I am here.
I am saddened by the harsh, negative, confrontational posts and try to move on quickly to the mainly diverse, open, non-prejudicial and substantive offerings from our growing community. Thanks, Joan, for your candid and inciteful views here.

This volatile reality in the middle east is so tragic, no matter the take on who's right or wrong. It is a hotbed for so much infectious hatred and self-righteousness in that region. The onlooking world will hopefully find some barrier to this spreading infection that is rooted in religious and territorial dominance that is so bitter and devastating to millions of innocents. It is a very complex psychology for most to comprehend, let alone, taking on a fierce stand against those who do not wish to condemn one nation or the other. As you say, Joan, it is a "humanitarian nightmare that is unfolding." The last thing we need here is a war of thoughts and words that are destructive and unnecessarily scare away our contributing members.

The solution does not seem close at hand and the observations from afar will be subject to dissention as well as misunderstanding of both cultures and ideology. We can and must seek to research and learn as much as possible to attempt to comprehend the historic significance that is playing out before our eyes and will have long lasting effects on the entire world in the days and years to come.

I agree with Lonnie. We vote with our fingers. We type a comment or not. We rate or not. We read a paragraph (or a sentence) or two and we move on or not.

One thing is certain, arguing for argument's sake is just plain boring. If I want to be bored, I'll turn on the TV.

Joan, I do not envy you your position (it cannot be easy herding cats) but I do admire the tone of your post---as a "fellow blogger." Thank you for that. It reinforces all my good opinions about OS.

urhgargargugurghggghhhhhhughguhgughbrzxhklchthcxhtrssccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........

That was a verbal snapshot of the message that ends up in people's heads after reading too much absolute certainty.

Absolute certainty is terribly obnoxious. I'm absolutely certain of it.

But I think it's okay. The site represents a portion of the land. The land is filled with intolerance and absolute certainty. The challenge is the rising of as many voices as possible who find themselves confused and furious about the certainty.

The violence is extremely certain, blind, stupid. Even when it's legitimate it's stupid because it means no wisdom has been used to creatively come up with something else.

I hereby declare myself uncertain.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your post and digress and rant but if I delete it all now and edit it will take too much time! :)

Oh, and I forgot to add-

One of the reasons I enjoy this site is the fact that there indeed are many people who declare this uncertainty and practice non-violent thought and writing.

It can't be all about who's to blame, it's more about what is the solution. I hope and pray that Hillary as Secretary of State will be a huge step in the right direction. Condoleeza Rice can go play more recitals...

I thought some of these people would recognize themselves. I can see know that I was wrong.

It's complicated: http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=74705

Wow, reading these comments, it becomes apparent that the Open in Open Salon has become a grave threat. I propose that the
"editors... we are so fortunate to have" asswemble a council to assist "the base of readers who are reasonable ...establish a culture for the site that drives out the unreasonable." We can call them them the CP (Civility Police), which is PC held up to a mirror.

I knew the post in question would elicit strong emotional reaction. The provocative title was not helpful. I was reticent to comment on it, since I knew it would be a hot and emotional post on a subject too multifaceted to even pretend to know the answers to. I ended up commenting, limiting my thoughts to what I believed addressed a narrow interpretation of the question posed by the blogger.

I think the question of why the Jewish people have been subject to so much persecution through the ages is a subject worthy of discussion, even if we will never have complete answers. I wish the question had been asked differently, and less provocatively.

I actually delete controversial blogs sometimes to keep the mood lighter. I Americans past a certain age are just really frustrated with the Isreal Arab conflict because nothing ever seems to change anything, violence, diplomacy, concessions. It is perpetual. Comare that to Bosnia, conflicts in Africa, and most issues are temporary, even if destructive, there is some closure. What you are seeing in regard to the blogger and the middeast is almost callus and irreverent because we are so tired of it. A tragic Hattfield and McCoy soap opera thats in its 500th season and was just up for renewal.

Thanks for stepping in Joan. I find it ironic that a site formed by a news and commentary site (salon) provides me refuge from news and commentary. I crave the personal here. I applied for food stamps once, here's what happened to me; something's wrong with my kid, has anyone been through this?; how come I can't bake a cake and should I quit trying?; silly is not by definition inconsequential. It is not my place to tell others what to write. What I seek is my business. I find the cyberspacial hand-holding I have found in OS to be friggin' miraculous. I will squeeze tight and hang on for dear life. I believe we will survive the occasional stampede.

Hello, Joan, I like your post very much. I'm an OS newbie, so I don't feel qualified to comment on much of anything right now. But I was struck by your call for reason rather than fire fight blogging. Sometimes, I have the impression of a couple of rams charging head on at one another and colliding with such force the sound echoes up and down valleys and over hills. I've been blogging on another venue for about a year and a half, and in the beginning I was struck dumb by the almost total hate and hostility to just about anything and everything. More recently, someone sent in a comment that was so beautiful in its simple depiction of hate, that I wrote a blog about it. The writer said simply, "You are a Fucking asshole?" complete with capital F and exclamation point. No further explanation, nothing. Since my post was in opposition to Washington's bailout of the auto industry, I figured the writer was probably one of the Big-3 CEOs. I didn't let the comment go through, although in retrospect I should have if only to expose stuff like that to the light of day. Maybe one solution is a "Quarantine" category where really obnoxious comments can be removed from the mainstream of a blog's thread until the writer does penance or something. Anyway, thanks for bringing this issue to the fore, and I doubt seriously if divisive comments will result in the destruction of OS. Most people are too balanced to be affected by them. cy

Jimmy expressed my feelings perfectly :) Which I'm grateful for, cause I was at a total loss.

Maybe I'm reading more into some of these comments than is intended but I hate the idea of self-censorship. The dozens of people that responded to Frank's post not only chose to do so, but propelled the post to the top of the "Most Read" column.

I've had my share of bad or boring posts, and that is confirmed when they have 1 rating and 0 comments.

Frank, like Amy and others on this site sometimes behave like zealots. Their views are only bolstered by controversy.

The best way to "moderate" content on this site isn't to censor or ban, but to simply ignore. Then they die a natural death.

Thanks to everyone for their comments; I can't begin to answer all of them. I do want to say to McGarrett50, I am certainly not saying don't bring up controversial topics! I said over and over, I'm not preaching censorship, or self-censorship, or even the Civility Police, I'm saying: Personally, I'm going to ignore posts that I believe are intended mainly to provoke and incite, or that simply provoke and incite me, and if others are feeling this same frustration I am, why don't they do the same? In terms of arguing with unreasonable posters, to set a standard for comment and debate, that's one way to deal with it, and it may be the best way. I just know the relief I've felt when provocative and abusive posters, none of whom I'll name, simply never found an audience, or lost their audience, so their attempts to incite didn't keep popping up on the feed, drawing more eyeballs, more attention, more anger.

Maybe (probably) that's not possible on this issue. But I'm going to attempt to avoid being one of the provoked, in the future. Lea and others, you're right, when you see a stigmatized group called out and seemingly blamed for their own stigma, sometimes it's impossible not to stand up. But I sort of regret that I did. Sort of.

Thanks, CCC -- why don't you post the Tony Judt piece as a blog post? I'm looking for wisdom today.

Bill Beck, you were someone I meant to include in my (regretted!) comments last night, you took just the right tone on the issue in question and you lead by example on setting the right tone here.

Again, thanks everyone!

Joan,
I appreciate your effort here. There have been suggestions made to allow readers to vote against (a negative rate) a particular post as a way of keeping it off the front page. Maybe we could try that for a period of time and see how it works? Also, some have commented on the narcissistic features of some of the poster's personalities. Psychologically speaking, it is futile (and sometimes dangerous) to challenge narcissistic thought - they really don't get it. Several of these posters get frequent EP's and periodic covers - at least way more than some of the other excellent contributors on OS. I think this adds to their own self-impression that they are important, and a steady feeding of attention is every narcissist's desire. They might not get this, but you do. Maybe the eds could discuss it among themselves and leave the hotheads alone for awhile; at least until they cool down. Ignoring them is torture, and they will quickly fix blame on others for all forms of evil-doing. I support that it is not your job to police anything here, but not promoting them and giving the membership some tools to level the front page might help. As for being concerned about readers leaving OS because of what they "don't like" here; well, that happens everyday in every media outlet in the world. I'll bet you that most sneak back - I mean really - announcing that one is leaving because they don't like someone's writing. When we were ten years old and got upset we'd take our football and go home. The next day we were all out there playing football again, until somebody got upset and took the ball. After awhile, if one kid kept leaving all the time, we stopped inviting him to play.
Rated.

Blogging communities generally come in two varieties, Joan. Bobbleheads, communities of like minded bloggers ( firedoglake, redstate, et al) and Knuckleheads (open marketplaces). You have a knucklehead site Joan, be proud.
It's a nice knucklehead site, I'm actually quite impressed by it, but it spans the range of opinion, so folks are bound to get testy,
some to the point of incoherence, a few aggressively so. That's the real world and I'm not sure what purpose is served in avoiding it. It may not attract those who want discourse without dispute but logic and reason are tested by dispute. Which is why bobbleheads tend to run towards defective groupthink while the knuckleheads are still arguing about how you spell Aminidejad (not like that, BTW). Some people want affirmation, others are more comfortable in the rough and tumble, you're not going to appeal to both groups.
The problem is exacerbated by the medium we're in, the virtual world. If we all met on alternate Wednesday evenings in a library meeting room we'd get to know each other personally. We'd also get to communicate personally. We'd get a more rounded picture of each other as human beings. In the virtual world we are simply a collection of opinions and opinions tend to be sharp. That's why there is a tendency to hear " I think you're wrong" as "I think you suck". Our grasp of social relationships hasn't advanced with the technology so we use old definitions for new concepts and take offense at things that were not meant to be offensive, just challenging.
You've wandered into the minefield here. Things are going to blow up, people are going to "die" (drop out) but if we are ever going to make it out of the minefield, it will be the knuckleheads who lead the way, the bobbleheads just walk in circles.

Roger, we were writing at the same time; that was my point, exactly.

Roger said, "The best way to "moderate" content on this site isn't to censor or ban, but to simply ignore. Then they die a natural death." I couldn't agree more.

Thank you for stepping out to speak your mind. That's what we love most about you.

Mary Joan Koch.
Thank CB for tea.
You mentioned The Fellowship of Reconciliation. I know they are charted with the UN? Whatever that means? FOR does:`tzaddick [just, righteous] and tzeedick:`justice] I'm getting into Mr. Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz.
The FOR gave me a certificate for completion of a Justice Peace. Study Curriculum on Nonviolence. It's a long story. It's as nice as a Yoder Mule Plow GED? I've got a big spiral manuel I'll have to dig through and brush up.
In my forties I took a Politics of Nonviolence/Conflict Resolution course with Coleman McCarthy, at DCs Institute For Policies Studies. They were real wonderful folk in the 'study' .... Coleman McCarty was the reason to buy the Wa/Po in the eighties.
Hubris is a nasty adult childish trait. The squabbles will last into eternity. It's to be stuck undeveloped, arrested back in a child's sandlot stage. Parody is a higher way that mean-spirtited debasement of a threatened "rival"...
Watch foolish folk discombobulate.
Society flatters. I one with integrity?
That human will gently pop bubbles.
A proverb:`Kiss from fool is mushy.
The Friend will gently slap. Disgrace?
The fool rejects wise counsel. Humus.
I loved how Mark Twain did a Parody.
When people sang:`Truth is marching.
Twain disagreed. Ya know? Swift sword,
people would die for false Liberties. Free?
Twain wanted unless men/women "die"...?
Twain said:`Let us humans live! Intend what?
Twain parodied in 1901 the Philippine-USA-war.
War, was seen by many as a commercial interest.
*
To the song:"O, say to you know?" The Star-Spangled
Banner? Mark Twain:`In sordid slime harmonious Greed
was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosom--
and for others' good a itch.
As Christ died to make Holy,
let men die to make us rich--
Our god is marching on.
We sure bless greed.
(Twain. ref: SOUNDS.
Mark J. Estreen. Wa/Po)
P.S. FOR is a great Justice group.
That group and a Mule GED? Ya!

I think you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of those only wishing to provocate as opposed to those wishing to heal. Is that not the Middle East in a nutshell? It's not an Arab/Israeli divide, the true factions are those who for peace and those for war. Remove all the geo-political talk to disguise their motives and look merely at the actions proposed. Those who are for war say war is right, those who are for peace say peace is right - that crosses all borders.

But you certainly can't be called a supporter of any entity without also questioning if that entity is engaging in self-destructive behavior.

Thanks for this, Joan.

Assessing a poster or commenter's intentions is not self-censorship or being PC or policing - it is what people do as part of a community. Though no one can reliably claim to know what lies in another person's heart, it is not too difficult to ask one's self, is this post seeking to advance understanding and resolution, discussion and reconciliation? When the answer to that question is no, or mostly no, I either choose a) not to comment or b) to point out to the poster or commenter how unconstructive I find their approach. I'm not very good at this, others are much much better than I - Liz or Rob, for example - but it's my small way of trying to keep OS both open and a salon/community.

My natural bent is to be solution oriented, and I found the post in question to be extremely provocative without much interest in searching out a solution - turning the post into a sort of Podium of Inflamation. I don't see the purpose in this.

I get a knot in my stomach when I see some of the blog titles that make it into the feed or the front page. For me, that response is one that warns me away from reading the post, if I pay attention.

I am not someone who gets an Editor's nod here very often. I don't think that what I write about is for most people, but I do notice that there are those who are ALWAYS the first to read and respond. I am thinking we might all need a little more time in thought before we post a comment.

Some of these angry posts are like nasty car accidents and many bloggers here seem to act like lookey-loos jamming up the traffic (the feed) with responses & ratings to crap, and then the thoughtful posts get no attention while the lookey-loos drive up the stats on mean-spirited crap. It's not just provocative when it results in a verbal melee.

Joan is very kind to call the posts in question "provocative." A lot of the mean-spirited blog posts & comments are written by incredibly smart people. Being smart is not everything. Being true to ones own values when choosing what to read, well, that is truly beyond priceless. I believe we become what we focus our attention upon most. So each of us might ask ourselves if we want to become that which we have been lookey-looing, or if we might want to make better choices for ourselves from here on out. There are beautiful, inspired writings here and blogs with tremendously thoughtful comments logged.

Dear Joan,

A very wise and balanced expression of both conflicts, here and Gaza.

In Gaza, I absolutely agree, no one is blameless. Here, possibly the same.

The only solution I see for the Middle East is for each of the parties to just stop. Simplistic, but true. By treaty, unilateral, just stop. There is no gun, bomb, or vituperative that will aid. Not one.

Each bullet, each word makes a hole somewhere and ultimately leaves a devastated child, homeless, fatherless, motherless, legless, and angry enough to hate to the end of that child's days. Israel is creating its own enemies for two decades into the future. Palestinians are creating equal enemies for their children and their children's children.

The only solution that I see, is for each side to just stop. The dust will swirl for three score and ten yet. The bad feeling engendered will have to die and be buried, a life time, the hate will last a lifetime.

And our words inflame. Fuel brought to stoke the bonfire ever higher. To what end? If we seek a solution? Then yes, let us go to work on it and I care not the hurt feelings. But just the finger pointing, the pejorative 'they', sullies us all.

So do something. Stop. And maybe each of us needs to contact all and sundry and say, "Stop." It is the only solution. The cure to a leaking canvas tent is to not have touched it in the first place.

Dean

I have just joined OS, and luckily for me, haven't even seen the said posts. Not very difficult to imagine what was said there, though. Since I myself have elswhere brought up controversial issues to debate, I've seen very violent (and very pointless) comments, side by side with opposing, but illuminating comments. Changing your mind, as was said here, doesn't happen so fast, but sometimes one can slowly get to think a little differently about very familiar issues. This is no small gain.

As an Israeli who was born into the conflict, I know only too well that those who compared here the violence-supporters of all sides to the violent bloggers and commenters are correct: although the latter don't physically hurt, this is the same kind of action. Yet, I don't agree that the solution is "political", i.e. - banning or censoring posts, but "educational" - proving to all writers that anything they write will only be taken seriously if it is meant to arouse real discussion, and relates to the body of arguments, not that of persons. I think this is exactly what Joan has here suggested.

I worry that the structure of Open Salon makes it too easy to be hostile and inflammatory in posts and comments. Other places resort to moderators and other means to prevent exceptional nastiness from ruining the experience. I think OS has been naive in assuming that it won't be taken over by the loudest or most hot-hotted or most controversial posters.

As for hoping people won't wade in, while I won't (and haven't), and you probably won't (not again), plenty of people will. How many times have you seen people admonishing each other, "Don't feed the trolls, it only encourages them"? And how many times have you seen people doing exactly the opposite?

The wild, wild web seems to be hostile to gentler, more reasonable souls. A couple of the commenters here demonstrate disdain for the generosity and civility that so many of us desire and value here. I hope that we can prevail on people to keep it decent, but I fear that it will not be possible in the long run to prevent more of this kind of problem without some kind of controls.

some people in gaza are resisting violently. they have reasons, stemming from the apparent unconcern in the international community at the establishment of israel by violent means on moslem land. they don't expect the international community to support their cause because it has never done so.

so if they are violent, i sympathize. nonviolent resistance is despised by zionists, as they constantly say in defense of their policies.

but however the palestinian people choose to conduct their struggle is a matter for them to decide. neither the zionists nor the wider community has a shred of moral authority to condemn violence, as they turned a blind eye to the activities of irgun, stern, and haganah.

The book that changed my mind was Friedman's "From Beirut to Jerusalem." As much as Freidman was aligned and sympathetic to the Israelis they came off as perpetrators--doing to others what was done to them.

If what was done to the Palestinians for "real" not just in the ideological eye of the Israelis (they won't accept us) the price they have had to pay has been the greatest crime of the latter half of the 20th century. First they took advantage of liberal sentiment, now they are exploiting the fundamental right. I think of it as a sort of mass psychosis--not unlike what came over the Germans in WWII.

Today, I saw Bernard-Henry Levy say he thinks the problem is that Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinians! Is that the best European intellectuals in the spotlight can do? Despite the election, despite the fact that the Palistinians give them shelter and suffer horrficially themselves, despite every single indication that in fact they do support Hamas--Levy said it all unchallenged by his Arab-American interviewer!

They still think of the Palestinians as children to be punished until they obey. What would you do if you were born Palestinian and seen what happened to your people? Where would your honor be--to see yourselves turned into a pack of rats--or would you fight to the death in an insane effort to expose the cruelty of your oppressors?

That's what happening in the Middle-East today, and the voice of the world's conscience, which should be a roar, is barely audiable on both sides of the Atlantic. The same thing happened to Native Americans, and yes, the same thing that happened to the Jews is now happening and has been happening to the Palistinian for DECADES. The Jews of Israel have allowed themselves to be reduced to barbarians.

The only hope is if the right gets knocked out of power in the next Israeli election. That needs to be the focus for those who are not in some way co-opted, and if fact do want peace.

Kudos for stepping up, Joan. You could easily have stayed out of this but instead, you brought your A Game.

I hope you've read Cartouche's post, The Feed Stops Here. (When she first came to OS Cartouche had a title in the feed that offended me so much, I never clicked on that post. And look what an asset she's become to this thriving and intelligent community). Here's my take, restated:

There's a scene in The Godfather (don't laugh, hear me out) where Clemenza's teaching Michael how to handle the gun he's going to use to kill his father's enemies, which will start a Mob War. Michael worries what will happen.

Clemenza tells him, "That's all right. These things gotta happen every five years or so, ten years. Helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten years since the last one. You know, you gotta stop them at the beginning. Like they should have stopped Hitler at Munich, they should never let him get away with that, they was just asking for trouble."

A year in The Godfather, a day on OS. Since I've been here, the cycle's repeated itself over and over. Hate/anger bubbles up in one form or another, bashers have at it, then calm reappears. It's typically internal in-fighting, but the election and the Middle East are outside forces that tend to bring out the worst spews.

Btw, the Editors never get involved, unless it's behind the scenes. Free expression is very much alive here.

There are serious situations happening in the world. In some blogs on OS, there are serious issues being discussed. We can join the ones we feel are civil and ignore the rest. I joined this one. So there.

Oh, I forgot to complete my point. What Cartouche and Joan (and I) are saying is, "Leave the gun, take the cannoli."

People come here for different reasons, I guess. While I'm annoyed at agenda-laced posts trying to pass as disingenuous questions and quizzes, I don't clamor for more lovey-dovey cake posts as a solution.

Well said Joan. I couldn't have said it better myself and I never would have even come close. Perhaps because in my work, in my small office, I see the daily ravages of those who sit as far as possible on my couch, stuck and paralyzed in their own positions, the anger and hate filling every corner of the room, fighting to the death, fighting to be RIGHT, and everyone ending up losing, especially the children.

Joan, this makes my heart hurt. I'm in total agreement with you -- and those who've expressed similar sentiments. The flame wars here only reflect the irrational response to "provocation", and while I'm probably the last one to walk away from a situation where I or someone else is being attacked, neither this "war to the bitter end" nor this endless flaming is accomplishing anything good. Salon is too good for this, the parties involved are too good for this, and the parties in the subject "war"' are also too good for this. Bravo to you for taking this on this way and just FYI, I stayed away from the blog in question because I'm learning I can be suckered in as easily as anyone. Probably easier than most. It doesn't help. This, however, may.

I've pretty much stayed out of this little flame war, as it's not really worth it to spit insults back and forth because someone disagrees with someone else's opinion. That said, I find it more than disheartening that some people (I really can't figure out who - but then again, I'm trying to not pay attention to petty barbs traded) are taking some sort of "stand" by leaving OS.

I guess I subscribe to the theory of pulling your hand out of the fire if you don't like the heat. No matter what your opinion on any matter (not just the middle east), you will have your supporters and detractors. Some people will insult you or worse for your thoughts and while that's idiotic, it's reality. If you're that upset about a flame war (not you personally, Joan) - I wonder how upset you'd be living in a real war, the kind where people die.

Regardless of the sides we take on OS in verbal spats, we should realize that as humans, we've all got opinions and values and a right to share them. If we really don't like something, we can always click on something we do like. Don't let someone's comments stop you from stating your opinion or drive you away - isn't that exactly what flamers want?

I hope we don't misread Joan's advice for passive resistance as meaning that we should avoid conflict, peace at any price, etc. We have a responsibility as world citizens to be aware of what is going on in the greater world around us, and not just today, but what has happened in the past to bring us to this point. If we are not informed, and make active choices in our own lives, then we end up deferring to politicians, and we know what that can bring. Nonviolent resistance is bringing heart and mind together to action. Avoidance means you let someone else make the choice.

Thanks, Joan, but I think I'll take a pass on posting the Tony Judt piece. I don't want to start a Seven Day War :-).

Good work on your part. Appreciated.

WOOF

Anybody who considers the title “JEWS” to be offensive, insulting or insensitive…is actually manifesting one of the complaints I mentioned in posting the blog. That was one of the objectives of the blog…to highlight the complaint, and the title was pretty much selected with that in mind.

The complain is that non-Jews have actually come to the point where they are afraid to address issues where Jews or Israel are involved. And if a non-Jew wants to say something that contains the notion “Jew”…they have to go through linguistic contortions to make sure the sentence can be phrased with the word “Jewish” rather than “Jew”…because of some notion of insensitivity in the use of the word.

I am not a Jew hater; I am not an anti-Semite; I am a strong defender of rights for people of all races, creeds, ethnicity, sexual orientation. I have had dozens upon dozens of op ed articles published where I argue for evenness and sensitivity to minorities—and I’ve done it always with my real name attached…and paid a price when hateful people have phoned and made threats for my lectures against stupid prejudices. For me to be accused of being any of those things is laughable.


The question I raised in my blog “JEWS” was an appropriate question for the context of my conversation with Amy…and when I decided to moves the question from the end of one of her blogs to a new blog where it could get attention from people with a more open mind about the issue…I framed it in the context in which it developed. That development is all part of the blog.

As I said up above, I chose the name “JEWS!” to see exactly how it would be received—and to be able to comment on that reception.

How can the use of the word “Jews” possibly be considered an insult to anyone not looking for an insult wherever they can find it? It is simply a word.

Are you folks honestly telling me that if I had titled the blog “Palestinians!” there would be posters yelling about how insensitive I was for using that word—talking about how disgusted they are with my having done so????

Are you honestly telling me that if I had titled it “Canadians!”—I would have the Canadian contingent of OS all over my ass decrying my insensitivity and proclaiming their disgust with having done so?

How about “Catholics?”

What is the matter with you folks?

Wake the hell up!

I have made two specific comments regard possible answers to my question:

On several occasions I’ve mentioned that I think there is an unreasonable and unjustifiable envy and anger evoked in non-Jews by the fact that Jews are such accomplished achievers. I’ve mentioned that I think this envy often serves as an impetus for hatred toward Jews by non-Jews.

Why is it that this anti-Semitism you (Amy) mention has been around for 2000 years? Why is it that Jews with very, very few exceptions have never had neighbors who welcomed them…despite the fact that they bring with them science, art, music and so many other social graces? Why, considering what YOU ARE SAYING, should we expect the Arabs and Palestinians who have had a state of Israel imposed upon them…get along with Jews to any greater extent than any other people everywhere in the world for the last 2000 years.

Why the castigation?

Why the charges of anti-Semitism?

Why the accusations of insensitivity?

Why does Joan feel compelled to post a commentary like this almost accusing me (and it is me she has in mind here) of destroying civility on OS and possibly destroying the fabric of its intentions?

I am discussing a valid issue…I have asked a valid question. I have not been anywhere near as insensitive as some people I’ve seen posting here on OS—and there were no protestation of doom and gloom at those times.

Amy can do what she will with her assertions about “veiled racism and anti-Semitism” but I’ve got a suggestion for what she can do with them that will protect them from damage by sunlight. If I wanted to make a racist or anti-Semitic remark…you can damn well bet that it would not be delivered in a veiled way. Nothing I have said has been racist or anti-Semitic, veiled or unveiled, because I do not do that kind of thing.

YES…there should be some shame felt in this matter…but not by me. The people who should be ashamed of themselves are the people who are castigating me for a post that was reasoned and fair-handed…one that, if I have to say so myself, took a bit of courage to publish.

Read the goddam thing. Read both of them. Read what I actually said. I should be congratulated for those posts—not given a bunch of shit! And certainly not have an editor post remarks about how distraught she is with what is happening.

In any case, I intend to continue the issue…and if Joan or anyone else thinks I am so out of line that I have to be censured, throw me off OS. Ban me or suggest my posts be shunned…whatever makes you happy.

You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves…that’s what!

I completely missed this post last night (I'm on the east coast) and started my day with the same unsettled feeling I had when I went to bed. Thank you for stepping up to the plate (several hours before me) and taking a stance that requested civility. If we can attempt to maintain at least that, we have a chance of surviving with all of our rights to our opinions still in tact. Rated.

Nonviolence indeed. My offering;
How to deal with difficult people; Buddhist wisdom for OS

The underlying stakes in this imbroglio: my take

Why All Can't Just Get Along: What Joan Walsh Didn't Say

Jpam: Thanks for your expressing your views on this issue. I have commented elsewhere that what we have here is a dust up that happens every few weeks and will likely happen more often as OS continues to grow. These kinds of posts and certain individuals have been doing this kind of in your face stuff for a long time, and, yes, here on OS.

But I honestly believe that the vast majority of OS members are not only uninvolved but are unaware of this dust up. I am out here on OS a whole lot of my life right now. My med problems keep me pretty much confined and OS is part of my therapy. And I actually did not know about it nor have I read the posts after I did know about it by reading a post or two about others who weighed in from the perspective of what the OS experience means, and should mean.

I believe in ignoring posts and comments which rile people up. There is a whole lot of trash on cable TV; anyone, including children, can find more porn with a few clicks of a mouse than anyone would have imagined when I was young. I don't watch that either. In the end we are allegedly adults and have the capacity to avoid and even boycott what we think is destructive. We surely can exercise that kind of judgment here.

Meanwhile, I think this will calm down of its own accord. Even those who scream at each other eventually get bored.

Monte

I'm very glad you brought this up, Joan. Continued flaming means a continuation of a heartbreaking situation for all. How did the Irish manage to accomplish a peace yet the wars rage on in the Middle East? I have a few ideas on this but for now, I'll keep them to myself. That said, what is the quote about the futility of repeating the same behavior and expecting a different outcome? Hmmm...

Let's all play nice.

Speaking of play, when will you arrive for Spring Training? I'm musing over a wingding, albeit not in a fancy restaurant overlooking San Francisco Bay, more like in the desert dirt staring at Pinnacle Peak. With longnecks.

Procopius
"I think the question of why the Jewish people have been subject to so much persecution through the ages is a subject worthy of discussion, even if we will never have complete answers. I wish the question had been asked differently, and less provocatively."

I wish this were the question Frank had posed. It was not. That's why this flame war started. Maybe that's what he thought he was posting but it most certainly wasn't.

Here are some words of wisdom that many have commented on as a way to calm down from all this, and maybe get some closure:

http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=74653

We should move on now; much else to write about ....

It is true that many of Israel's supporters throw accusations of antisemitism at any criticism of that nation, it is also true, however that many on the so called left bear a hatred for Israel that exceeds any reasonable comment. We are as people all susceptible to the shards of the prejudices that have defined our culture, we can no more absolve ourselves of antisemitism than we absolve ourselves of sexism or racism. That said we cannot turn our faces from what is an obvious deviation from international law. Nor can we allow good friends to equivocate on the issue of proportionality when the death count balances at 450+ to 4. Most of all we cannot simply write about all the beautiful things we can think when children are being killed, maimed and displaced by an arsenal that we as taxpayers have enabled. I applaud your invocation of Non-Violent Resistance, but let's not mistake that for merely ignoring the troll and hoping he'll go away. I hope that we can back off from our egos without backing away from each other. I think self censorship is fine, because we all should take a good look at what we write before we publish, and consider whether we offering the best part of our selves to the issue. I respectfully disagree with the opinion that the Middle East cannot have peace because it has not had peace. I rather think that this issue, like Global warming, is reaching that critical stage where the status quo is unacceptable.

Joan: While I'm not familiar with the particular posts you're referring to, I'm very familiar with the problems of allowing commenters to rant. As a frequent target of such abuse, (I'm a newspaper reporter, evil henchman of the dread MSM) I'm glad you're addressing the problem.

I'm new to OS and am still exploring its many highways and byways. I'm struck by how tolerant and smart and even wise the blogs I've visited have been, as well as the commenters who have very kindly written in response to some of my posts. You've got something here that I think is worth preserving and protecting from hateful assaults.

Some of that wisdom is easily seen in the comments to your posting. To mention just a few: Rich Banks's refusal to be entertained or impressed by ranters from either side; Liz Emrich's very astute recognition that no one ever "wins" anything by trying to beat someone into submission on a discussion thread. Lonnie Lazar's cheerful acknowledgement that no one at OS will settle The Palestinian Question; Michael Rodgers's observation that empathy is all but missing from the situation.

And this, from Kaydi: "It always begins with the war of words; physical violence follows."

Heartfelt, reasoned expressions like these are hard to find anywhere these days. That these are only a selection from a much larger number of similar comments strikes me as astonishing.

I'm leery of using the word "community" to describe OSers. It's another of those words whose meaning has been all but lost when used to describe groups (i.e., ever visit a community of scholars? Ever want to?) OS seems to me to be more like a neighborhood, a cyberplace where people from all walks are welcomed. I haven't found that anywhere else like it on the web, though my travels have been limited.

Allow me to say something that may appear naive: the expression of any negative emotion is useless and unnecessary. Negative emotions are themselves pretty useless, but they're also inescapable and out of our control for the most part. What we can control, with some effort. especially while sitting at the keyboard, is the expression of negative emotions. This isn't an idea original to me; it goes back a long ways. It's something I try to keep in mind whenever I write (or speak, for that matter) especially since I've spent a goodly portion of my life being sarcastic, worshipping and justifying my righteous anger as a route to the truth of whatever matter is at stake.

I'm not interested (anymore) in reading writers who trade in such stuff. So I'll second anyone who counsels that ignoring, not engaging such writers, wherever they appear, is a useful approach. And here's a salute to anyone who'll remember, as so many other commenters noted, the importance of civility, empathy and patience in writing and reading, especially when talking about incendiary and polarizing world issues.

I'd like to suggest getting rid of the "most read" feature. I never click on it to see what people are reading. I do glance at the highest rated, but I mostly look to the left column and see what others have written. This is true on their blogs too. I follow comments made.

Thanks again, everyone, for the great responses. singpretty, that's exactly the point. Jeremiah Horrigan, welcome to the neighborhood!

what people need to do is rotate their coordinates 90 degrees; the struggle isn't between us-good vs them-bad; it's between the nonviolent folks on both "sides", vs the violent ones on both "sides". and to make it more complicated, you can't respond to the violence with violence, or you lose by default. well, nobody said it would be easy.

I wish everyone would drop the "Israel has a right to exist" comment or add the question, "Does Palestine have a right to exist." Israel does exist, it is very capable of defending itself and it has the US government and military hardware in support.

I'm with you Joan. We're all here to share and learn. Hopefully, we will find some solutions. Unfortunately, too many of us are more of the problem and less of the solution because our opinions are so crystalized all we can do is angrily regurgitate them. One has to be open minded if one really wants to debate an issue and find solutions. Solutions are what we need, not closed minds. We have more than enough of those.

9/11 gave Bush the support of those who wanted to simplify complex issues and take sides, (with or without ...) the disastrous results nearly destroyed what "we" had been working, Leading By Example!

As soon as you fall off that horse you're immediately in the mud and stooping to a level of discourse bound to keep the cycle going.

Israel, like a small version of "us", can do what we hope Obama will do, keep to a higher standard regardless, or stay in the mud.

You just can't have it both ways, ever.

Aloha Kakou

To the point of incendiary comment threads. I've been able to turn the tone on some comment threads, at least temporarily, by simply asking the questions we all ask from the standpoint of centrism: I can assume that the people on this blog are not billionaires or corrupt politicians, and are therefore not my enemy. How can we turn each discussion toward sweeping problems that plague ALL OF US (war, corruption, greed)?

Wouldn't it be a cherished thing to have just one day . . . when no man died from the hand of his brother.

Joan- I'm enjoying the OS, but let me point out that certain incendiary posts get put on the front page, even though their validity is questionable based on their dogmatic stance. This is the nature of an online community: if you are full of it, the rest of the community will soon tell you so. Let this thing play out.

I would like to add that Kamiya's article today on regular Salon was very much on point, as was Greenwald's blog/column. Thanks for those. I am one of the primary people to which you refer, and I will refrain from comment on this debate as much as possible. But I have friends on the ground in Gaza, and this thing is an obscenity.

Non-violent passive resistance is the ONLY approach that really works and without the blood, destruction of buildings, property and livelihoods, without the emotional trauma or expense of war, without the damaged veterans whose lives are ruined.

Many sages, mainly those of indigenous peoples, have said and written that until the "Male Principle" that has dominated the planet for thousands of years and is mainly a product of western civilization ends with its wars, violence, and destruction, and the "Female Principle" becomes transcendent with its nurturing, creativity, compassion, focus on children, focus on the health of the planet, and so on, then the human race is doomed.

I, for one, absolutely agree with them! And right now.....looks like.....death, war, and destruction, here we come!

As much as I agree with the non violent response, How do we get that message across to those who don't think non violence is an option? It appears to me that they don't see anything changing without the violent response. This is a sticky,tricky subject that is now 60 years old. Twystedmama

I agree, the last thing that any blog or social site needs is a flame war. The anger that results causes rifts between some members, and drives manymore away. That's no good for anyone. For that reason I generally stay away too.

While I agree with Israel's right to exits, I don't agree with their militant attitude when things happen, however... a ceasefire / truce / peaceful co-existance only lasts until one crazy person breaks it.

With continued rocket attacks over the border, it would be nice if Israel had been able to get the support of the UN to help sort things out, but you can only put up with incidents like this for so long before action of some sort has to be taken.

It's just sad now that there is further loss of life, belongings, and more stirred up hatred, all because of (I assume) a minority who kept up an irritating assault over the border.

As usual, it's the innocents who suffer... anf it's the same in so many other parts of the world...

Well, just my 2cents worth...

perfect,thank you

Well with a jillion comments certainly mine will be lost in the shuffle, but non-violence is my mantra, except in a few cases. I trained in boxing and a few martial arts but in my career as architect, advertising Creative Director, professor and now painter, moderation is always best except when you have a conflict with idiots. People with brains the size of fleas, have low comprehension an lose their tempers quickly. I prefer most of the audience here at OS than where I wrote before even though I was frequently headlined and my stuff was highly rated and read. We have had a few morons but we do need someone to ban certain trolls and jerks.

Thank you for this. I should have read it before I just posted about name calling and playing fair. I am with you all the way.

It never seems to end. After nearly forty years following this conflict and trying to stay current I've finally realized that this problem isn't current. It does have the potential to be eternal and universal.

ALL THIS ALL THIS

It is mine
No, it is mine
my claim is old
no, my claim is old
you are a thief
no, you are a thief
you killed my brother
no, you killed my brother
you took my home
no, you took my home
you will not stop
no, you will not stop
you defy reason
no, you defy reason,
you are blind to my pain
no, you are blind to my pain
you steal my future
no, you steal my future
my children are sad
my children are sad
my children will inherit
my children will inherit

all this

all this


Michael Murphy 2009

Ah, Joan, I wish I had seen this when it first went up (*continued whining about making it easier to find content*). I sometimes have a problem controlling my WTF reflexes - I try to avoid those posts that are designed to inflame rather than enlighten (or entertain), but I also don't see the sense in allowing unsubstantiated accusations to stand unchallenged.
This is a blogging community, and folks will post what they will. I'd like to compare it to an experience I had in N.Y. regarding daytime radio: I used to listen to Howard Stern, as he typically could crack me up easily. There were times when I found his material inappropriate and offensive. When that happened, I did what all reasoning adults do - I changed the channel. Howard has a right to make a public ass of himself, as do the folks here if that is what they choose to do.
Thanks for the measured, sincere, intelligent response. When the heat gets turned up anywhere, it's always best to consult those with cooler heads - and you are definitely cool in my book.

Thanks.

Joan,
How are we doing now? take a look at Dennis Loo's post:
http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=78270
Terrific.

I'm all for non violence as long as there is a method to the madness but having fought in a war and having been in several war zones...I feel for you as an editor, having to fight the good fight in a blog is more of a war than I wish to fight. Somehow words don't produce nearly the same impact as the Palestinian Qassam rockets do; which is why we won't ever have peace in that region until one side is victorious. The word for peace in most terrorist dictionaries is "Victory".

I enjoy your blog.

Ted

I've thought a lot over the years about how to communicate nonviolently. It's tricky--linguistic habit gets in the way all the time if you're not careful. The war on poverty and hunger, the battle against cancer, you know the drill--the metaphorical base of our language is in some respects rooted in the language of Mars (or as the Greeks say, Ares). There are times when rhetoric of that kind is required, or fun to engage if you're in a fighting mood; and violent language is at least less blameable than violent action. But it's worth thinking hard about every sentence you write, because language founded in aggression comes up unbidden if you don't take care.

I commend you on your bravery for stepping into this arena. It can be a real hotbed obviously.

I really appreciated and agreed with:

"But I've been awed by the self-healing properties of Open Salon, in which all sorts of obnoxious, abusive, gratuitously hostile and otherwise substandard posts usually just float through the feed without finding an audience or ratings (some great ones do too, now that we're larger!)"

Me too.

Joan,

I've not commented upon any of your material before. So this will be an insignificant precedent. I've written two letters earlier today, one addressed to Madelein Albright, the other to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. If it makes you fell any better, think of these letters they way that the literary character Herzog wrote his correspondence back in the mid-50s.

Don


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Kunming, Yunnan Province
The Peoples' Republic of China
Sunday, January 11th, 2009



Madeleine K Albright
Principal, The Albright Group LLC
Washington D.C.
The United States

Dear Ms Albright,

Within a mere ten days Dr Condelezza Rice will retire from the position you once held under President Clinton, and the former president's wife, Hillary Clinton will then assume the role of America's chief envoy who deals with foreign policy matters abroad, no doubt on what will prove to be a rather grueling schedule.

Since coming to Kunming roughly nine months ago, I've had some chance to form my relatively detached opinions about what has transpired within the United States and various countries around the world during the last half year or so. I have even become motivated to take the examination for Foreign Service Officers, which will be conducted on February 7th (for me, at any rate) in Chengdu, at the American consulate there.

I have watched you on television over the years, Ms Albright, and I must say that you have inspired me with your piercing intellect and grasp of geo-political matters. But at the present time there is one over-riding concern for nearly every diplomat in the world outside of Pakistan and India, and that concern lies in Gaza.

This intractable difficulty between two fundamentally distinct ethnic groups, the Palestinians and the Jews, is obviously a problem with which you are intimately and professionaly all too familiar; thus there is nothing that I can say which would be of the slightest news to you.

But, Ms Albright, (and I am now addressing you as a near-contemporary), one does not need to be privy to state secrets to make observations from material supplied by the journalists from this deeply afflicted area of the world. The situation is so dire now, thanks to the Jewish government's incursion and prior economic blockades and physical barriers around the Palestinian people, that no one with even a smattering of humanity in their hearts can ignore this situation which is growing into an atrocity.

The Israeli government is culpable for many many civilian deaths among the Palestinian people. Perhaps, at some date in the future, those individuals who now comprise the Israeli government will be compelled to answer for what they are presently doing.

I will make no assumptions about your views on this matter. I could not possibly know what they are. . . . But what I do know, and what is common knowledge, is that The United States government has long had a very, shall we say, robust relationship with the Israeli government. How much money from The United States pours into Israel each year? And how much of this money has some sort of strings attached? I would venture to say, "None of it."

If I were in Ms Hillary Clinton's position right now, regardless of what President Obama had instructed me to do, I would warn Israel that I would do everything in my power to sever the "inextricable" ties between The United States and the nation known as Israel, as it is no longer in the national security interests of The United States to further facilitate a rogue regime in the Middle East.

Sincerely yours,
Donald Gardner Stacy


##############################################

Kunming, Yunnan Province
The Peoples' Republic of China
Monday, January 12th, 2009



Ban Ki-moon, Secretary-General
The United Nations
New York, New York
The United States

My greetings to you from Kunming, Mr Secretary-General;

That I happen to be a private American citizen living and working as English and mathematics instructor in Kunming should have no bearing upon your impressions of my following remarks concerning the dire situation in Gaza.

For eight years Secretary Rice of The United States has endeavored fruitlessly to obtain merely a semblance of "Peace" in Gaza. I expect that you are personally only too painfully aware of this failure.

Let me propose an idea which you and many of your fellow diplomats have no doubt already reflected upon many times. As you know, the governments of Israel and The United States have a very unusual and close-knit geo-political relationship. That this "relationship" will forever not only inhibit but prevent the cessation of violence between the peoples of Israel and Palestine should be patently obvious by now, after sixty years of contentious debate and intermittent warfare.

I urge you, sir, to set in motion procedures at The United Nations which will ultimately send UN troops into this area to prevent any further bloodshed of all who live in the ever-dwindling Palestinian land. The situation there now is nothing more than a police-state akin to what South Africa had once been. The world should no longer tolerate the Israeli strangle-hold upon the Palestinian people, and the United Nations is the only political body capable of suppressing their ordeal.

Sincerely yours,
Donald Gardner Stacy

Americans don't pay any more taxes for buying more weapons.

Thank you for your good post.

Personally I think that non-violent means are the best and maybe even the only menas to stop wars.

I've written a blog here on Open Salon to create more awareness of the dangerous situation in the Middle East.

It is not only the question of Palestinians and People of Israel dying in futile wars because of their leaders' insanity. The problems concerns in reality the whole world.

If USA and Israel will next jointly attack Iran, there is a high possibility that Iran will stop the whole Persian Gulf for transporting oil.

In addition many other powers will join the war. Russia is one of the main suppliers of arms to Iran, both India and China are heavily dependent on the oil supplies from the area, especially from Iran.

American common peo9ple are directly responsible for present war in Gaza and for the possible war against Iran. Almost all the arms of Israel are paid by the millions of taxpayers of USA even if the decisions how to use the weapons are done by a handful of people.

The common people in America have still got the power to stop the present war and to prevent further wars.

They can tell their will to their representatives in the congress of USA to stop paying taxes for buying arms for Israel.

exceptional post.

thank you.

having been in para-medicine for many years, one of the first hard learned lessons I got was actually a tried and true therapy had I known it then -- when I stormed off after a thown your helmst on the ground screaming argument and stomped off nearly getting killed over it, I've had many years to think about the advice a lower rank told me when I was ready to start cutting. Three words.

Wait and watch.

All we did was keep the pt clean and he came out fine. God only knows what would have happened had we opened him up. I had rank, but I listen, especially to those who speak truth (to power or otherwise). The relevance here? I'm a newbe. To this place. But I've seen more miracles by waiting and watching than by jumping in trying to do some good, trying to hold mirrors, and trying to make a person see things like me. Operative Word: make.

From what I've seen in my personal mail box, this place is alive and well -- and we are just a mirror to what is happening at the moment, and right now it's Gaza.

Gaza is at war. OS seems to be to.

Few here have seen 'real' war, but they are very artful players with words. There is a public persona and a private persona of many people. Some public personas are able to say 'woops!; I'm sorry", others reserve that for private for what ever reason. And others cannot say it at all.

I think we are well, and will get better if we wait and watch our Self and our Selves.

It never hurts to have that argument every few years as a reminder.

I can wait and watch -- and when I hear willy peet is being used for a 'smoke screen' in a civilian area -- **I** could rant and rave here like the sailor I was -- and the Marines I served. But what good would that do? I have a folder right at the top of my bookmarks that has the contact of every politician who represents me and their phone number. Did I post here? Or did I Speak Truth to Power?

As shortly as I could in my posts, and as graphically as I could to the poor woman on the phone. Only a few on this list know what willy peet can do, and I won't go there except to say look it up, follow a few links, google a few photos if you don't believe, check youtube if you have to see to believe.

We can pull togther and do what's right when the time is right - I think we have not lost so much insight that we believe that posting to posters will start or stop anything. If you don't have a folder with your federal and state representatives contact info in it, why not make one.

I understand that Bush stopped the sale of two and a half ton special shaped charge bombs today. Let's all pause for a moment and think what that means. And perhaps inside ourselves, rejoice. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they can't do good things. Even bad people do good things.

Let's wait and watch. I THINK we are healthy. But just to be sure, let's take a day to think about non-violence. To think about why we enjoy our community.

I've always said that the old lie is 'sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me'. Bones heal, but many will carry to their graves words not even meant to hurt - think about inflicting so much pain that a person carries YOUR words to their grave.

Non-violence applies to words as much as physical actions.

Let's declare an International day of Peace. I'm not too old to have forgotten them, and many of you younger than me could learn a lot from one.

One reason I love the Desert is that any voice you hear is your own or Gods. For me it takes three days. I have never tried the Holy 40 days. But maybe ONE day here of peace and quiet will help teach our Selves about our Selves. Bloggers to the barricades! Peacenicks to the Vanguard!

Joan, whatever happened to "Civil Disobedience"? I think the fear mongering by the Government and hate mongering by right wing zealots (fear of losing one's life for speaking openly) have curtailed our vigor in speaking out. Well, many Americans, not I.

i wuv non-violence.

Try being non-violent when being shot at. I'm sorry, but the situation in Israel/Gaza/West Bank most closely resembles Apartheid South Africa. The only reason the ANC, once called a terrorist group, was able to end Apartheid was by using violence to scare whites into concessions. I am sick of supporting Israeli colonialism.

So, how has non-violent resistance been working out for Tibet over the last 50 years?

It's simply not an effective tactic without an open media.

That's what the Middle East needs....the observations of a middle class white broad.

Hi Joan,

I wonder if there's a way to program edit functionality into the comments section. I would guess many others have experienced what I have at one time or other: click regret.

Sometimes you may rethink an impulsive comment and having the ability to modify a post may go a little ways to reducing flaming rhetoric.

Thank you Joan! The whole thing boils down to your
"I support Israel's right to exist, but I oppose its latest moves, which are as likely to provide a lasting peace as the 2006 Lebanon War did."

I am a practicing Jew, by the way, this war on Gaza following 40 years of illegal occupation will be aevery bit as successful as the GW Bush "war on terrorism" fought in Iraq. The end result of that fiasco will be to establish a pro-Tehran regime and continued tribal fighting, not to mention ruining both the moral standing and stability (financial & political) of our own country. Same formula, same result.

The other option is to respect International law!

In our volatile, explosive world "... nonviolent resistance whenever possible" becomes harder every day with too many weapons in the hands of too many angry people. I agree with you and applaud this post.

I am moved by your post! Especially, since I teach "Introduction to Nonviolence" and "Nonviolence Today" at the University of California, Berkeley.

It's difficult for most people to go beyond the "us" verses "them". When a war breaks out, emotions run so high - even at a distance. Michael Nagler, co-founder of Peace & Conflicts Studies here at UC Berkeley, said that Meditation is the "lab" for learning about nonviolence. He thought Meditation as well as Nonviolence classes. I now teach what used be Nagler's meditation class. This Spring 2009 semester we will have 300 students practicing meditation on Wednesday afternoons. By way of meditation we begin to get past the dualistic "us and them" framework. It's not easy, but it is good basic fundamental work.

I'm totally with you, Joan. I too was tempted into an earlier version of this discussion, then realizing my error, and bowed out. I'm happy to say I've never been tempted to go back to that thread and read further! Once I turned away, it was easy to never look back.

That, though, is another problem: it's easy enough to ignore flame-wars in the blogosphere, in much the same way as it's easy to ignore strife in the real-world! We simply turn our attention to other posts.

If I may, I’d like to use your forum to take a stand and issue a challenge:

Blogging our opinions about something is not real action. I suspect the Open Salon community members have undertaken some very interesting and very useful ‘real actions’ (about this particular issue or others like it.) I'd love to hear more about those things!

Cheers!
Andy A

Andy A. Cheers! My problem is I love the notion of nonviolence. I'll over opine if I Believe. You/me, if we have ever eye -witnessed the end result consequence,,, of violence... CARNAGE. Just blogging views, or listening to:` In The Old Temple.' by Tan Dun & Yo-Yo Ma,
It won't cut it.
It takes action.
Yes, I sure agree.
Bela Fleck sings:`Live at The Quick. Zona Mona. (If this is all dark letters, it because I'm still learning , Duh! You know It's the only way, Learn. I'll never learn to 'cut and paste' but who don't love Swiss Cheese? huh.
How do we rate, silly?
I hope this post is weird.
Weird is a wonderful word.
Joan Walsh did a good piece.
As some one wrote on the blog,
All we want is fleece, Peace and ice cream.

I'm a Newbie. I'm with you on non-violence, and on being adult, Joan - just as long as we don't do what rich and comfy folks usually do: Talk and do nothing, or (worse) turn a blind eye.

Here in South Africa the apartheid divide was as deep as Israel's, and people "KNEW" the two sides could "NEVER" live together. Until we tried.

Just like in Palestine, to even suggest a single-state solution would have invited ridicule and worse. Until we tried.

We have to keep talking (and arguing, and sometime getting all het up) - but we also have to get involved and DO something.

I'd suggest a start that anyone can do: Let's all refuse to let our own local political representatives hide from a fair approach to both sides. Just as we advocate an adult approach on the 'net, let's carry that through to the real world.

Not easy. Daunting. Get ready to be shouted at. But to watch the carnage and do nothing - YET AGAIN?? Surely not?

Yes, I also believe in peaceful means to reach an end. However, power does not give way, without some layers of force. Only when power reaches the point where it has exerted it’s means and demise is eminent, does change come.

If we think the Civil Rights movement, as a case in point, was a non-violent approach to change, think again. The Blacks slave trade started in the 15th. Century, Lincoln freed the American slaves in 1863, and they still had to sit in the back of the bus, eat in different restaurants, and bathroom for another 100 years. And it wasn’t till late in the 20th. Century that a White man was punished with “his death” in America for killing a Black man! Do we think the voice of non-violence was silent all those centuries? Bring the monopoly of power, is when change comes!

Our support of Israel (USA) is too one sided for us to be a fair and balanced broker. And it has been going on for too long! In fact our one sidedness in that region has hurt Israel and the peace effort. And history confirms this position. Israel and the other powers in the region must be allowed to settle their own accounts. This disaster taking place now in Gaza, is taking place only cause we, USA, allows it to take place. Our voice is so faint, our lips are not even moving! If it were Venezuela, instead of Israel doing this disproportional aggression, the war drums would be pounding today! And our whole arsenal of media controls would be on the table raising the temperature for America to take action, ASAP and not one second longer!

Israel is the strongest military force in that region. And they have nukes! They do not need our help. They are a powerhouse! Israel push comes to shove, will not be the country driven into the ocean, as many fear. Israel must win the respect of the countries in the region and they must make it happen!

America is in a state right now that we have to turn our attention inward. We cannot police the world, with the theme 'American Interest First!" This mantra blinds many of our foreign policy decisions to our detriment. And our Middle East policy is a patient of that blindness!

I grew up believing in Dr. Martin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi, both of whom espoused a non-violent way for the oppressed and poor (most oppressed people turn out to be the poor and working poor) to protest their conditions and change their lives. The success of Ghandi's leadership in India ended British rule. This is, of course, a gross oversimplification of this historical series of events, but it is an historical example of how it is possible for a large body of people can effect change without war. I do not understand war as anything other than an attempt on the part of large imperialist conglomerates, called "countries", want to force the premise of change based on violent force. Dr. King had a ministry, Ghandi had a ministry, Obama has a presidency--a political office. When a man or woman is forced into an archetype the resonance often limits the choices, but from what I so so far, we have some hope that Obama will allow for the self-healing capacity to permeate not only the wave of humanity that makes up America, but the individual lives of each American! It is my hope that rage and anger and substandard posts will, like old soldiers, fade away. They are a marker, a symptom, the "afterglow" of a dying breed of human. The new human is emerging and embodied in Barack Obama and those of us who believe that non-violent dialogue and deep wells of creative expression. Compassion, ability to listen--these are the qualities required to make change possible.

Re-reading my previous post I found numerous typos--mostly left out words! I just got up and haven't had my coffee yet so I did not edit my own piece! However, if you will fill in the somewhat obvious missing words and forgive my sloppy editing, the piece stands! If I weren't a serious writer I'd let it go, but I should know better.

I have to disagree with you on this Joan. For one thing you only made a veiled reference to the piece in question which I find puzzling. Secondly, the discussion inside the thread was really quite informative and interesting once you got beyond the obviously provocative headline which was designed to be clicked on as much as possible. I found the discussion inside that thread to be quite valuable and forced myself to read it. Controversy shouldn't be avoided, it should be embraced and not cast aside because part of the population is too easily offended. The question one should ask themselves is whether they actually learned something after reading this. I have to say that for me the answer is "yes".

Joan, You definitely struck a nerve - actually several nerves - here. Well done! The tendency in America culture is to lash out, curse out, and duke out our opponents. With strong, thoughtful conversation that involves listening to the words and pauses of those with whom we disagree, we can move into a new place of understanding. Yes, there can be a path of nonviolence that can be practiced on a variety of levels: internationally, nationally, locally and even here - electronically!

I agree however most people involved in these things are aggressive by nature .And most would be If I planted a garden in your back yard and pitched a tent would you call the authorities or turn on the faucet.

this is the longest letter I've read that says something meaningful without advocating eitherpoint of view. good writing

As a semi-retired editor/publisher, if even of an "old technology" (newspapers), I understand your inner conflicts and priorities. I carry the scars of many "Letter to the Editor" war interventions, but I now know that all of those words currently rest in a quiet backroom newspaper morgue, yellowing by the moment. The immediacy of the moment will pass for this war of yours, too, not long remembered. It is your steady hand and the body of your work that should bring you comfort. OpenSalon will stand the test so long as free speech is embraced. So, take that long deserved deep breath and continue the work ahead. You're doing fine.

I'm surprised to read there may be dissention here as I rarely see it.

I have the same hopes that you express of the middle east resolving their differences in a non violent fashion. Lord knows the constant conflicts have been going on long enough. from my somewhat disinterested perspective it does appear that Israel did appear to turn the other cheek frequently before resorting to this latest act of retaliation.

Al Loomis how many more of your children would you continue to send to their deaths in this battle that has now lasted over forty years. Time to stop making excuses for violence and work on making a better life for all. You will never drive Israel out of the middle east. why keep beating your head against that wall? With all the money the world has given your PLO all palestinians should be living in luxery. Coexistence should be your goal. Let the past stay in the past.

I'm totally with you on this one. I think that 'provocative' communications occur pretty much everywhere and about almost everything. I am an ex-attorney so this reactionism comes naturally to me, unfortunately.

A case in point: I subscribe to a blog where the blog author simply asked what it was about Barack Obama that people were so over-the-moon about? Well, she got such nasty, really ugly responses. Some people literally libeled him (Obama) with NRP slogans, so much so, that others lambasted those who initiated the Obama attacks (at which point I was only feeling fearful for his life).

This happens not only in these blog forums but among our family members. At this point, we no longer have family E-mail conversations -- they have effectively been silenced by one or more family members that have been unable to listen to what others have to say... even though I believe that people have been careful about their statements.

And it's not just about the Middle East and Gaza, it's about Sri Lanka and the Tamils and the Singhalese, about Global Warming or not, about those responsible for the financial meltdown (Republicans or Democrats or neither or both), etc.

I don't exactly know what to do about this but I have started to try to be the peace-maker in these situations, restating what one person has said, to another who was offended. And visa versa. We need to be able to, at the very least, recite what the other person has said, or better yet, somehow "feel it." I know some very wise folks who actually got their PhDs from the California Institute of Integral Studies, and who pioneered something called "Insight Dialogue," which involves putting yourself in the shoes of the other. I have the dissertation and at times hand it out, but people won't read it. It's too long. How to bridge the gap? How to come together? How to understand each other? I guess these are age old questions.

And people want a one-pager.

I am VERY new here. As such I am unaware of the specifics of what you are speaking of. However, the principals you raise are important in EVERY debate, whatever the topic. Even more so in the cyber world where I find people find it harder to undersand each other. Add to that the international element of a WORLD WIDE web, we must also bear in mind that terminology does not always mean the same thing even in the so called English speaking world. Often I find words and phrases having a change of meaning, for example, as we cross the Atlantic. Winston Churchill once said "We are a people divided by a common language" It is always important to take time to relook to ensure that we have understood rightly, and that we written rightly for an international platform. In addition, debate wil never be successful if we do not first seek to understand the position of those we debate with.