Some of you at the SF/OS party met my sister Susan. I love marytkelly's adorable sister Just Cathy, but as sisters go, Susan is very high up there, and of course for me, she's at the top. For a lot of reasons, including coming to the OS party (which she insisted -- and I actually sorta believe -- she did for her.) She says she is going to blog her butt off from now on, so please, go encourage her. Or nag her. As I do.
This morning, though, she sent me the video of me debating G. Gordon Liddy that's up on Salon tonight. That was really a sweet sisterly thing of her to do, because my day was too busy to look for it. Later this afternoon she called me to say, "Daddy would be so proud of you." Which made my day.
I have been sort of pretending, even at the SF/OS party last night, that I was horrified to debate the likes of G. Gordon Liddy, but Susan's comment made me realize that really wasn't true. My working class Irish Catholic father despised GOP lawbreakers from Joe McCarthy through Nixon and Liddy through Ollie North. I was a young teenager during the Watergate hearings, not entirely paying attention, except to know, thanks to the Vietnam War movement and my parents, that Nixon was a bad, bad president. But as Watergate got more ugly, and my father got more mad, Nixon and dangerous assclowns like Liddy became the face of lawlessness and totalitarianism (although my parents never tossed around big words like that at home.)
Susan's email also made me remember how we watched the Iran Contra hearings together as a family, while my father was dying, in the summer of 1987. To some people that would have been disturbing, but to my father, it was soothing; it represented the rule of law triumphing over the likes of Ollie North (and Liddy).
So...I belatedly remembered I was raise to fight what Liddy represents, and I should stop apologizing! I still think I deserve a more intellectually able foe than Mr. Fear Factor, but you can't always pick your enemies. You can always fight them, however. And I promise that I will.
DakiniDancer
Niece of Dakini
Sheldon The Wonderhorse
Susan Walsh
Big Uncle Jack
jimmymac1025
Salon.com
Comments
I still want your earrings from last night. I coveted them highly over the webcam.
How did I not meet your sister last night?!?! So sorry!
Thanks again for such a special evening and great company.
Joan.....!!!!!
The Watergate days were for me proof that our system does work, and I wish it worked right now holding someone responsible for torture and the many other horrors of the previous administration.
That anyone, anyone could consider Liddy a hero escapes me. Then again, it escapes me how 20% of the population still thot Bush was doing a good job even after eight years straight from hell. Heckuva job, Bushie!
You did very well by pointing out his lack of credibility.
Monte
Where's John Sirica when you need him?
You stay calm, cool, collected while collectively and intellectually kicking their machismo asses.
Just continue to be who you are and make us proud.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/politics/2009/02/03/daschle/index.html
And here:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/politics/2009/03/29/geithner_krugman_johnson/index.html
Probably other places. Not a huge Geithner fan, but I think Obama is a huge leap forward from the gang of criminals who had been running the country. I'm sure my father would think the same thing. Thanks for asking.
This will make me happy all day.
(and it was a pleasure to spend some time with you and your sister the other night.)
you're carrying the flag for a whole legion of us, Joan, and you should know we appreciate it and love you for it
I would like that cancerous lesion that Nixon left behind to be fully exorcised. Biting Liddy's head off is a good start.
"Yes, sir, I know who you are," I replied.
"Who do I pay for this flight?" he queried.
Turns out he refused to let the government pay for his plane ride out to the funeral. I took two things from this. First, he had a severe distrust of the government, specifically Clinton's administration. Second, he had money. The cost of the ticket even then was well over $2000.
Here's my take:
Tortured Principles Temporary Practicality
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"George Gordon Battle Liddy (born November 30, 1930) was the chief operative for the White House Plumbers unit that existed during several years of Richard Nixon's Presidency. Along with E. Howard Hunt, Liddy masterminded the first break-in of the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate building in 1972. The subsequent cover-up of the Watergate scandal led to Nixon's resignation in 1974; Liddy served four and a half years in prison for his role in the burglary."
Oh yeah, he's still a convicted felon. President Carter commuted his 20 year prison sentence. Quite an accomplishment for a former armed serviceman; attorney; and an FBI agent. He's a crackpot lunatic and his 15 minutes of fame was over many years ago.
Rated & Cheers!
To me that was a bigger scandal and crime than the supplying of arms to Iran that started the whole sorry mess. I belief that the reason the Swift Boat Liars For Hire hated Kerry was not only because Kerry was a hero in Vietnam and Bush and Cheney were cowards, but because Kerry's subcommittee documented Reagan's involvement in guns and drugs smuggling and obstruction of justice.
Hypocritical much?
and phil's posts ending with "peace" are unspeakably abominable oxymoronic
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
In your next post, could you please prepare a draft apology letter that we could send to families of prosecuted Japanese soldiers explaining that, due to the harmlessness of the procedure, we were wrong to persecute these people for war crimes? This way, we could all comment and give you feedback on the letter. Once it is drafted, we could then send it to our President. At that point, the US Government could make an official apology to these soldiers and their families. Do not forget to cc all the families of US soldiers who were waterboarded in WW II. I am sure they will support you in your quest to apologize to our former foes.
If waterboarding was a war crime when the Japanese did it to my father, why isn't it a war crime anymore?...
I can personally attest to the accuracy of Turley's observations. In early 1942, my father was arrested by the Japanese Kempetai in Shanghai. He was transported to "Bridge House," an infamous torture chamber, where he was kept for several months in a cage whose dimensions were so small that he could neither lie down nor stand. Midway through his captivity, he was interrogated; asked to sign a confession he was a British agent. He refused for two reasons. First, it wasn't true. Second, my father believed he was being asked to sign his own death warrant.
After multiple lapses of consciousness, my father signed the "confession." The next day, his tormentors, unsatisfied with his wobbly signature, returned to his cell. They offered him the choice of signing again or undergoing another round of waterboarding.
My father was taken to another room where he was pinned to a wooden platform by several soldiers. One soldier held a sponge over his mouth and nose. Another soldier poured water onto the sponge. My father could hold his breath only so long, after which water ran up his nostrils, down his throat, and into his lungs. He described the process to me as "exquisitely painful."
After multiple lapses of consciousness, my father signed the "confession." The next day, his tormentors, unsatisfied with his wobbly signature, returned to his cell. They offered him the choice of signing again or undergoing another round of waterboarding. He signed. Death was preferable to torture.
Fortunately, especially for me since I would have never been born, they didn't execute him. My father spent the remainder of the war in Japanese internment camps; met my mother in one; walked out when the war ended. In 1948 his testimony at the War Crimes Tribunal in Hong Kong helped to convict several Japanese officers.
My father was taken to another room where he was pinned to a wooden platform by several soldiers. One soldier held a sponge over his mouth and nose. Another soldier poured water onto the sponge. My father could hold his breath only so long, after which water ran up his nostrils, down his throat, and into his lungs. He described the process to me as "exquisitely painful."
…
I can personally attest to the accuracy of Turley's observations. In early 1942, my father was arrested by the Japanese Kempetai in Shanghai. He was transported to "Bridge House," an infamous torture chamber, where he was kept for several months in a cage whose dimensions were so small that he could neither lie down nor stand. Midway through his captivity, he was interrogated; asked to sign a confession he was a British agent. He refused for two reasons. First, it wasn't true. Second, my father believed he was being asked to sign his own death warrant.
My father was taken to another room where he was pinned to a wooden platform by several soldiers. One soldier held a sponge over his mouth and nose. Another soldier poured water onto the sponge. My father could hold his breath only so long, after which water ran up his nostrils, down his throat, and into his lungs. He described the process to me as "exquisitely painful."
After multiple lapses of consciousness, my father signed the "confession." The next day, his tormentors, unsatisfied with his wobbly signature, returned to his cell. They offered him the choice of signing again or undergoing another round of waterboarding. He signed. Death was preferable to torture.
Fortunately, especially for me since I would have never been born, they didn't execute him. My father spent the remainder of the war in Japanese internment camps; met my mother in one; walked out when the war ended. In 1948 his testimony at the War Crimes Tribunal in Hong Kong helped to convict several Japanese officers.
…
The enemy we face is a diabolical foe that doesn't respect or understand our civility. Ask those who lost loved ones on 911. Sometimes in life there is no good thing to do, only the better thing to do. I think water boarding is the better thing to do than to do nothing.
My countries safety is in the hands of dedicated people who have to make those decisions. If it is at the discomfort and yes, at the fear of or threat of death…short of death or permanent disfigurement or physical damage, I say, the gloves are off. War is hell.
I do think that the Japanese were much more vicious than America even in how they housed thier prisioners and in the other methods of "torture" used. They were judged using the Geneve Convention as the standard. You actually described the small box, etc. If they treated their prisoners even remotely as good as the U.S. does and applied “enhanced” interrogation techniques only under strict supervision, they could not have been found guilty of war crimes.
The Japanese, at one time, were a barbaric people. Emporer worship, a cast system and Kamikazes were a part of their culture. Do not think for one minute that I would even think of apologizing to those barbarians. Just like I would not apologize to the families of those who support suicide bombers. You would not either. Your sarcasm is misplaced.
In my humble opinion, I do agree, water boarding, used recklessly, could deteriorate into prisoner abuse. Those abusers should be punished. As in Abu Grabe.
I also believe, if it continues to provide the successful results that most experts seem to agree on, as a last resort technique, used in a controlled and humane way, water boarding is vital to our national defense. I only hope that no one has to die from passive policies on interrogations in the future.
I want to reiterate my deep gratitude for your fathers sacrifice to our nation. Far too few recognize those brave and courageous men who gave so much. Thank you.
Could you please cite those "most experts", as in your comment:
"I also believe, if it continues to provide the successful results that most experts seem to agree on, as a last resort technique, used in a controlled and humane way, water boarding is vital to our national defense."
I have been listening carefully these past few days since the memos were declassified, and I have only heard "experts" comment now and in memos from the past that this torture does NOT work. Ever.
However, I have heard pundits and politicians wishing to save their skin say that it "could" work.
Since torture is always wrong, regardless of the outcome, this is irrelevant. But it does make the torturing that we did even more stupid.
We did a horrible thing, and it served no purpose.
Jack Nicholson (Col. Jessup): You see Danny, I can deal with the bullets, and the bombs, and the blood. I don't want money, and I don't want medals. What I do want is for you to stand there in that faggoty white uniform and with your Harvard mouth extend me some fucking courtesy. You gotta ask me nicely.
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"
If it were not for the Hollywood twist at the end of that movie, this should be the example of how we treat the brave men and women who do the hard (made harder by people who want civility in war..?) task of defending our country.
I am sure that Mr. Cunning would have appreciated your comment. (BTW, I am sorry if the first comment about writing an apology letter may have been a little harsh.) I feel very strongly about waterboarding or the use of torture and this explains why I believed Mr. Cunning’s experience needed to be shared with others. As I explained before, since waterboarding was considered a war crime in the Second World War and (I just learned this yesterday on PBS) because American soldiers were in fact court marshaled during the Vietnam War for conducting such ”interrogation technique” on an enemy who also performed atrocious acts against our troops, there is no reason waterboarding should now be tolerated.
In the past, we have faced more despicable foes than Al Qaida, but have not resorted to such actions against these people. If some of us did it, they were prosecuted (if found - I am sure it happened anyway). In the mid-90s, the Canadian Government dismantled the Airborne Regiment because they tortured a Somali teenager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair). Although the soldiers’ actions are not comparable to what happened here, the Canadian Government clearly indicated that such actions will not be tolerated in the future. This is the kind of standards we owe to stand for.
I would encourage you to watch the latest episode of Real Time with Bill Maher shown last night on HBO. In the first part of the episode, Bill interviewed former CIA officer Robert Baer about waterboarding. This person, who was tortured himself in the hands of the Iranians, participated in the waterboarding of subjects. He firmly indicated that waterboarding is a torture tactic and could lead to the death of the subject caused by a cardiac arrest. Perhaps he witnessed this himself. Mr. Baer also claimed that the Israeli no longer uses torture as a method to get valuable information from terrorists (Hezbollah, etc.), because more often than not, the confessions bogged down investigations by leading investigators on wrong paths. I also agree with him that the use of torture/waterboarding in the so called ticking bomb scenario does not exist. If we are getting so close to the event and we have not been able to identify it by other means, we have failed and it is probably too late at that point. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to discuss these points with you.
I probably won't watch Bill Maher. He repulses me. How he got a show with his hate filled sarcasm is beyond me. I will try to verify what you said about Israel. That is interesting.
I must say, that there is this weird aura around this issue that gives me the hebie gebies. Let me explain.
We are discussing what you call torture, and what I call enhanced interrogation techniques. Let’s establish something. We are not talking about innocent bystanders. That is something that we must not forget. These guys for the most part want you and I, and our way of life, dead. By any means necessary.
The minute I fall into the malaise of intellectualizing what to do with these “people”, I feel like something insidious is happening. I feel like that is exactly where they want me. Mind you, it’s not fear. It’s something different. Like if you forgot to bring the baby in from the car on a hot day. Something would gnaw at you until your mind freaked out and you ran to the car in hopes that it wasn’t too late. (This has never happened to me, but the thought must run through every parents mind)
The moment I start to feel for these people, the moment I start to let down my guard, is when they have won. We need to do everything within the parameters of human decency that wise men agree on. We need not value judge anybody. We need not condemn and slander those that disagree. We need not prosecute those who disagreed before us. We need to weigh the current security needs of the country and decide what to do NOW.
If we agree to water board, then do it with the integrity needed, (which I think we did). If we decide to stop water boarding, so be it. Make sure it isn’t some half baked reason made by weak stomached doves, but by intelligent, well meaning leaders and people who get paid to defend our nation. Then….let them do their job. Thanks for the civil discourse.
http://open.salon.com/blog/kanuk/2009/04/29/
torture_do_unto_others_remember
After dinner, in the cab, she was sitting on the jump seat facing Liddy. He asked, apropos of nothing she could discern, "Would you like to know how to kill someone with a sharp pencil?"
Taking her silence for assent, he proceeded to mime how you place the tip of the lead at a certain vulnerable point under the chin and then strike the eraser end hard with your other hand, driving the pencil into the brain.
Not a tip (forgive the pun) one easily forgets
Personally speaking, debating him would be meat on the table for someone like myself. His line of shit is so full of holes, you could strain pasta through it. Although in reality, I'd rather just break his jaw.
I'm hosting you'll post the video here as well?
Perhaps Americans today are more results-oriented and believe that the ends justify the means.
The Bill of Rights prohibits "cruel" punishment, and it's lots of fun watching people trying to say that waterboarding is not cruel. [You "recover" in ten minutes. Really? How would one determine that? Are there no emotional/mental aspects to the practice?]
Of course, the Constitution is often ignored. That's really the best way to amend it.
G. Gordon Liddy is a good American. He followed orders given by the President, his bosses at the FBI, got caught, paid his debt, owned up, and told about it. What is wrong with that? How many - name the occupation, politicians, athletes, and C-level execs - have done heinous things that have affected thousands (save athletes of course, whose exploits moreso ruin themselves), and have paid some price, but not nearly enough and remain unrepentant?
What makes Liddy such a creature to you? He speaks his mind. I am thankful we have people on every side who are courageous enough to speak their heart, knowing folks like you, and others will debate wholeheartedly, sometimes viciously. Thank God, we have this dialogue. Otherwise, we're doomed.
If you step back and take a look at what Obama seems to be doing, and despite his looks, brilliance and speech, look ahead a few years to see what these actions may bring, you might see cause for alarm. Why? Does the fact that our government is rapidly growing bother you? (yes, I know, Bush grew is more than any liberal ever had, but he was not a true Conservative) It is 'buying up' businesses, pouring money down bottomless pits, trying to fix every bad thing, making it all ok, 'so you sad little people don't have to think anymore. Just depend on us, we'll take good care of you.'
Does the fact that it takes over terminally ill businesses that should follow the natural course of a dying organism bother you? Will you ever see any benefit from the AIG takeover, or any other government investment, for that matter? No. Of course not.
"I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive." T. Jefferson
You talk about totalitarianism...you are looking at the dawn of what appears to be a kingdom, a socialist state, where we all work for the government entrusting they will allow us to live good little lives.
I hope and pray I am wrong, and that somebody has the guts to stop this idiocy, tell Obama to wake up from his ideological experiment.
Sorry to run long. But, the fact that you can be vocal and have a public debate with someone is beautiful. But, silencing the other side, as many in your fandom preach (because their voices aren't heard which is ridiculous and whiny) is something our administration seems to want to do and would be another ill-fated step.
I read your article about Obama's poor cabinet choices and of those who, however wealthy and liberal, still look for ways to not pay their taxes. In many of your reader's views, that would be a Republican occupation. Glad you were honest enough to call them out, as have many.
Thanks for standing up for justice and equal treatment under the law, Joan. Rest assured you stand on the right side of history and it will be shown to such in time.