Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit.

Ha!

You are a feminist. You are also fair and just which are excellent qualities in anyone -- male or female.

latin schmatin ....
I'll quote the great Patty Donahue:

I make them want me
I like to tease them
they want to touch me
I never let them

I know what boys like
I know what guys want
I know what boys like
Boys like, boys like me

Nice post k.ass.10 ~ reminds me that I married that stupid, sex crazed, frat boy and that now he's a type A, obsessive asshat ... there is no truth in advertising ... I swear ...

xixi

Very convincing. I was skeptical at first, but you've made many good points. I guess motherhood puts those cultural blind spots into perspective.

Hey Jodi? Thanks. Specially for the stuff about kids, divorce and custody. I know all about that one. You're also spot-on about husband-battering (not that I know first-hand). It's one of the most underreported crimes in society, although not as prevalent, obviously, as wife-battering.

Rated

Feminism is all about equality between both sexes, so yes, you definitely qualify. Very good piece, Jodi, and one some of the "woman-superior" feminists I know should read and consider carefully.

Brava!

Dorinda - I value fairness above all else because it must be engineered by those who think and shape our world. Those who are satisfied to simply say, "The world isn't fair" suffer from a lack of imagination.

Mom - I would be an asshat if I were married to you, too. Hey, wanna move to Iowa?

Ardee - I think it's about realizing that we do not have to lower men to raise women.

Boanerges - I am extremely lucky to have married two amazing men. The BigKids' DaddyPerson is my partner in raising them. We split the time between them equally. I am blessed in that way. It takes work, but it CAN work. The fact that our marriage failed should not mean that our children are deprived of either of us.

Ash - I don't mean this as an attack against women. Hell, I am one. But, I think it's time to stop treating men like pinatas.

New Blog & Julie - Thank you.

Very thoughtful and well argued, and I love the ending--which could apply equally to different ethnicities, nationalities, and religions.

While you make some excellent points that I do not disagree with for the most part, it is obvious you have not spent time in male dominated sectors of society like the military, the police, etc. If you had, your perspective on men thinking women are holy and to be respected would be drastically different.

In truth the vast majority of men are sexist assholes who really do think we are inferior because we lack the penis. If you or I were passed out and a man thought he wouldn't get caught, most would rape us with no consideration towards our rights as a human being. Men beat women at such a higher rate than women abuse men that I have to laugh at your shelter example. Most men do not want primary custody of their children. If they fight for custody, it is usually because they want to torture their soon to be ex-wife or extort financial concessions in the divorce.

Yes, not all men are like that, but take a look at the rape statistics for women in the US military and give it a think. Read up on the use of rape in time of conflict in Bosnia and the Congo. Pay special attention to the sex traffic the UN peace keeping forces sent to those areas engaged in.

I would never wear one of those shirts you describe, but I also know things are far from equal. Men are still incredibly privileged in our country compared to similarly situated women and this is even more starkly so in the rest of the world.

None of this will change until we have financial control of our lives and our work is viewed as valuable. When plumbers are just as likely to be women and kindergarten teachers are just as likely to be men.

Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a translator!

I've been trying to get this point across for years. Well done Ms. Kasten.

Somehow, I pray it will all even itself out and we learn to respect each other and appreciate the qualities each brings to any relationship. Good points made!

Indeed. Until all of us can get past the belief that we can only win if someone else loses, someone always will be marginalized.

Let me just say YES Jodi.

And to this I will also add the immense pressure men have on them to be "all that." A woman can find a man, stay at home and pop some kids...maybe take a part time low stress job and no one will say a word...some are even encouraged to do this or actively seek to do this. Men do that and they are considered a ne'er-do-well or a loser. I often walk through the downtown core and wonder how many suits hate their life, but don't have the guts to buck the trend and go follow their muse. Actually, I know many who hate their life, but they continue on in a job they hate because it is their assumed role as the breadwinner.

The us vs them attitude is not working and women need to progress past this as well.

rated!!

Very thought-provoking.

I see it in my own marriage. Who goes up on the roof when the gutters need to be cleaned out? Not me! Who constantly gets asked by their father if business is going good (in other words, are you being a good provider)? Not me! Lots of other little examples that point out the expectations that we have of men, but not of women.

How could I possibly laugh at some female comedian who makes sweeping generalizations about men, when I am married to someone who is the exception to those generalizations in just about every way? And how could he possibly be the only exception?

My t-shirt says,

I'm not a bitch ...
I'm THE bitch

just sayin' ~

Change Agent what makes you any different? You hate me because I have a penis. Your generalization about mens behavior is abominable. I know a lot of men, none of whom would ever consider raping a passed out date. Are you saying that the abuse of men is justified since men abuse women? How do you know that most men wouldn't want primary custody of their children? Have you spoken to all of us about the issue? You are as bad as those that you hate. You paint all men with the same brush and have no compassion for us as people. We are people, we feel the same things you do, we cry, we feel alone, we love our children. What gives you the right to say the horrible things you've said? No one deserves to be punished for their genitals.

I've been an egalitarian feminist for years (or womanist) and I have hated this idea of gender roles. Why can't little boys have dolls? Don't you want them to grow up and be nurturing dads? Why is the house my responsibility because I have a uterus? Why are women "supposed" to change their names with marriage and men not? Why can't we just be equal? Not better than or less than...just equal to.

But to achieve this, women have to give up a lot of their absolute control/my-way-or-the-highway beliefs about child care and how things "should" be done in the house. Different does not mean wrong. It just means different.

I love the website www.equallysharedparenting.com since it really gets into how to create balance regardless of genitalia.

And no, I do not buy into that male-bashing crap and would not let my daughter wear any of that foolishness...along with any princess dreck.

I really liked this save for the 76 cents on the dollar point, for which I have a very detailed rebuttal. But this is very good. Likewise, we should revel in the differences rather than minimize them. That's the allure, damn it.

And, Imom? That type A asshat probably works late because he WANTS TO! :)

The world for women (and minorities) is expanding. Walls and ceiling are being broken, barriers removed, horizons expanded. This is all for the better but it comes at the expense of men. Our world is shrinking, barriers are encountered where they previously didn't exist. A common response is "well, you've had it all up to now". Really? So.. I take it.. like a man.

aphrabehn - I am probably most disturbed my the messages our kids are getting. "Girl Power" now equals "Boys Suck." That's wrong.

AtHomePilgrim - Absolutely.

ChangeAgent - Several problems on my end. First, my grandfather, father, half-brother and *husband* served in the Navy. My uncle was a career army helicopter flight instructor. My other half-brother was in the Air Force. Two of my first cousins are New Jersey State Police. None of them beat or rape women. It isn't in the handbook.

Secondly, my most forceful assertion here is that society will continue to do what is expected of it. It's about power. *Nothing* will change until we figure out that having personal power does not mean taking it from someone else. That's as true in Detroit as it is in Darfur. Equality will not happen until we stop classifying men as predators and women as victims.

Violent acts are a crime. Period. I refuse to EXPECT someone to commit a crime because they are a soldier, policeman or generally have a penis. I also think we expect men to give up on their children. As long as we accept that as expected, it will continue.

We DO have financial control of our lives. Our work IS seen as valuable. *WE* are handing over our personal power. No one can take that. You have to give it. Unless you're chained up in a closet, you have a choice. Demanding our rights does not have to mean classifying men negatively.

bobbot - Thanks!

MAWB - We're working on it. :)

High Lonesome & JK - Exactly.

Mom - When Mama ain't happy - ain't nobody happy!

Jeanette - What I'm seeing is that the "good guys" AREN'T the exception.

teendoc - I think as long as there is contentment and agreement in a marriage, it's right. Letting everyone have a say is never wrong. And kudos on the princess dreck. I wish I could master that one.

Woooolllly - I'll take that as a stamp of approval and move on... ha ha ha!

Jeff - The common response is, "You've been in charge for millions of years." Well, YOU haven't. You have to live in the world that is current. You haven't enjoyed absolute male power, but you sure as hell have to suffer the consequences. That's not right in my book.

bobbot, I don't hate men and actually lay much of the blame for the perpetuation of the patriarchy in the US at the feet of women these days who raise their sons to think women should do the cooking and not mow the yard. Women who clean the toilet one hundred percent of the time. Kids notice.

However, I do think you need to let the statistics on rape, spousal abuse and sexual abuse sink in and percolate. There is a reason prisons are predominantly full of men and not women. One of the leading causes of death for pregnant women is murder. Murder committed by the father of her child. Why is that? I don't create these statistics and facts.

I've read your blog and I know your marriage is in turmoil, but you need to step back and read the newspaper. Women are far from equal and are the punching bags of men the world over.

When was the last time you read about women stoning a man to death for having sex? Report back when you find such a thing.

I on the other hand can direct you to YouTubes showing women being stoned to death by men.

While you may have had men in your life who spent time in all male dominated sectors, *you* have not.

::WILD APPLAUSE::

I love men. Let me say that again with gusto. I LOVE MEN. I LOVE MEN!!!!

I'm not fond of boys, or jerks. But I love men. I love their arms and their legs and their torsos and their hair and their eyes and their mouths and their teeth and their wrists and their skin and their laughs and their voices when they whisper in the dark. I have a neverending well of sloshy good will toward the stronger sex.

I hope they love me back. No competition, no stupid power games. Just mutual admiration.

What you said, girlfriend.

I wish that I was truly man enough to venture more than a thumbification...Jodi, you have balls.

I agree with your entire premise here, and you provide wonderful illustrative examples. I don't think you mentioned one that always strikes me: It's fine for a woman to be a stay-at-home parent, but not a guy. Also, men are still judged by their careers and earnings far more than women are. (Of course, women are also judged far more on their looks than men are, etc -- there are lots of counter balances) And...I can wear pants or a skirt, but guys can only wear pants! ;)

But I need to say something about the child custody thing. I don't know how it is where you live, but the days of dads getting only weekends have been gone a long time in Calif. Any father who wants joint custody and isn't "unfit" will get it these days, if that's what he presents as his desire in court with his attorney. That's what my partner K got, and he was divorced 15 years ago. Other men that I know who wanted joint custody also got it.

But the sad truth is that actually a lot of divorcing men don't want to take on that level of parenting, and are happy with weekends. And of course, there are still far too many who abandon their children altogether after divorce - something that is still more acceptable for a man to do than a woman. I knew a woman many years ago who gave custody of their son to her husband at the divorce - she wasn't "unfit" but felt he'd do a better job raising their son. I can't tell you the judgment I heard from people about her. "What kind of mother would..." kind of stuff, even though she played the "dad" role of visits etc.

Still too much inequality on both sides is my feeling.

Jodi – this is a topic that will always be debated. For as long as it can be remembered, women & men have had opposing opinions… and thus equality is overshadowed. But you bring up many strong points and prove the old saying, “Behind every man is a great woman.”

So, lead the way and men will follow...
-rated

I'm afraid I'm going to be away for an hour or so. I do ask everyone to try to keep your cool and be respectful. (Which everyone is doing a lovely job of thankyouverymuch!)

GWool made some good points in a PM about the non-scientific nature of the "76 cents on the dollar" thing. Please understand that I am ignorant about statistics. I'm not a statistician, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Take that statistic with a grain of salt, to be fair.

Verbal - I LURVE wild applause. I also lurve that spot on men's backs between their shoulder blades where they're all warm and soft. Yum. ::hurm::

I can't answer everyone individually at the moment, but I fully appreciate my honorary balls.

ChangeAgent - Here in lies the problem. You don't know where I've been in life, nor do I know where you've been. We can play the "I've been there" game all day.

There are women right here on OS who have been raped. No need for me to enlist to see that. I have abuse, neglect and pain right in my own family.

Do you have to drop your life and become a stay-at-home mother to see the world from my point of view? Of course not. We can be tolerant and appreciate each other's points of view without living them.

I respect the fact that you feel that way. I'm just wondering how projecting the expectation helps the situation? Maybe if we raised our standards it would change? Maybe if we raised our children differently?

I'm proposing solutions here, not looking for reasons for things to stay the same. Thinking, feeling folks MUST lead the way.

I agree with the premise, and much of what you say - I've seen first-hand the ridiculousness of the courts (exceptional father, fucked up mother, court still awards custody to the mother), the inequity of a man being abused by a woman, and the shirts of which you write.

In addition, I live in an area of the country where there seems to be prevailing attitude, equally held among men AND women, that women trade sex/relationship for financial security - both parties seem willing to accept this as status quo. Unless women change their self-image, men in our area cannot change their image of them. Likewise, it would be wonderful if men could experience women as "sacred."

Changeagent has a point about male-dominated sectors. I work in one, and it can feel pretty bleak. However, I suspect that some of that has to do with the seeming fact that men who enter these sectors are often drawn from those I see in the town where I live.

I cannot, and will not, speculate on Changeagent's assertions about "most men." I do not know "most men." I know the ones that I know - and some are total assholes, while many have a softer side that they don't want other men to know about.

You've made some brave assertions - and very worthwhile observations. I don't know how to change the system dynamics which seem to require taking a side - duality rarely yields understanding.

Well-said Jodi. It always sends a shiver up my spine to hear women berate men with sweeping generalizations and caustic assessments. These are their husbands, brothers, fathers and friends. It's no less shameful than when men shove all women into the same narrow-minded box. Male-bashing is the new ignorant. It's so Joan Rivers.
And love the tag about the garbage! Rated for making people think!

You left out the fact that all progress achieved by women has been their own doing. Few men have ever stood on the "front lines" to defend, implement, or insure women's rights!! Although we know who Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Betty Freidan, and Gloria Steinem are, name one man who actively fought for women's rights!

The USA has yet to have a female president or vice president, although Pakistan, India, Norway, Ireland, Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Liberia, Israel, on and on, have all had female leaders! Pakistan, but not the USA, for God's sake!!

Also, keep in mind that the world is controlled by men who own the banks, the money, the militaries, the courts, the police departments, the corporations, the churches and religions, the governments, the universities, the professions, etc. Whatever the conditions under which men and women exist have been largely the doing of men.

And yes, men DO abandon their children every day. And yes, men ARE the rapists, the serial killers, the pedophiles, the perverts (after teaching abnormal psychology, I can assure you that the paraphilias, or sexual perversions, etc., are ONLY a male category), etc. But sadly enough, although most men are NOT rapists and abusers of women, how many of them ever speak or stand against male violence? I used to urge my male students to speak out against male violence toward women. All men have mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers, female cousins, friends, and colleagues, maybe
girl friends or wives. All men entered this world via a female body. Yet how many fight to end violence against women?!

Yeah, that's right!

If the Hallmark cards that bash men were about women the stores would be burned. Excellent post.

This is excellent, Jodi. I would like to link to it on my next recommendation post.

Thanks Jodi! As an evil stepmother, it is so very clear how this society has stripped my current husband of rights to his kid; especially when his divorce is not amicable. All things granted to bio-Mom, in our courts.
As the bio-Mom of a wonderful son, coming of age in the ‘90’s, in seemed the only cultural male hero for him was Homer Simpson, or an athlete (but my son enjoyed English more than sports).
The condoned male bashing I see everywhere is repugnant! While I can be first in line to call out white male privileged that also goes unacknowledged.

This belongs not only on the cover but all over the internet. EXCELLENT analysis and highly intelligent writing. I am with you on this 100%. Heading to Digg and Reddit (I really hope someone else already got you started). I LOVE you, Jodi. You are just plain brilliant.

I read Comments after posting my own (my usual practice).

uh oh.

This is turning into the usual point-counterpoint fracas that happens when gender issues are raised (I'm guilty of that in my own comment, BTW). I've seen this happen sooo many times, both IRL and online. It's happened to me both when I've written things along the lines that Jodi has, or the flip side, speaking of what happens to women. You can't win, either way, no matter your gender. Yet as long as we just dig in and defend "our side" (whatever that may be) we will never make any progress on this stuff as a society. It's only when we listen to the "other side" that we will.

Jodi, it was brave of you to put this out there, and I hope you won't be discouraged by some of the responses you get.

What really bugs me is when women who murder men who mistreated them are absolved when they often had other options. Never understood that.

Soap Box Amy's comment is right on point and her latest blog about abortion is also on target with this issue.

We will always be second class until we control our own bodies with no interference by the state. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing women in the picket lines holding anti-abortion signs at Planned Parenthood except for the men standing there with them.

I don't have to be a full time stay at home mom to appreciate your perspective. My mom was one for years. She gave up her independence to take care of her kids. Having read your blog, I know you have a good one in the man, but many women are not so lucky. Which is why I counsel against women letting a man be their only source of income. You become very vulnerable. Kids can be hostages.

I work with mostly men and in their hearts of hearts they do not think women are their equals.

Wolcott, what is your explanation for the difference in pay that does not include discrimination? I would be interested in seeing some stats seeing that I am an informal statistician, in that I know the math at least. You also might want to check out the site for the National Committee on Pay Equity,

http://www.pay-equity.org/

It's just stats on all of this stuff.

A T-shirt to add to you list:

"Men are like floor tiles. Lay them once and you can walk on them forever."

I hear what you're saying and agree with you wholeheartedly.

ChangeAgent says

'I work with mostly men and in their hearts of hearts they do not think women are their equals.'

You've finally got that telepathy thing worked out, huh?

I will say this, people are shitty sometimes. In fact, some people are shitty all of the time. You may even work with some of these people and some of them might even be men, but you are setting yourself up for a self-fulfilled prophecy.

When you expect someone to single you out for your gender, you are sending out all kinds of signals via body language and verbiage choice that make it very easy for someone to become what you want them to be. I think this fact is something you have to keep in mind when thinking about these issues, especially in your own life.

As for the world, I think you're right to question the assertion that women have attained some level of equality. Throughout Asia, women still have the same roles they have maintained for thousands of years. Usually below that of men. But if we compartmentalize just a skosh, we can see that women in America at least have come a long way and that the expectations for American men, by and by, have change dramatically from where they were 50 years ago. There is still a long way to go, but the recent past gives us a glimmer of hope.

rated.

I have nothing to add except, many men have accepted it as our due or just desserts to suffer not very subtle emasculation over the last 25-30 years as the price we incur for our gender and its objectivization of women over the centuries. I would think that has changed markedly now. My generation (boomers) is the first were women had an expectation of going to college, joining the professional world, and having a career. My 25 year old daughter has it easier because her mother (along with all women of my generation) paved the way. She did not have to fight her way through as her mother's generation did. She didn't have to raise a stink about access to sports or worry that being athletic would "de-feminize" her. Her partnership with her spouse is now something which is assumed rather than wrestled over.
I cook. I clean. I work. I raised my kids by myself when their mother was oveseas for 2 years. And yes, I worry that people will think that I'm a pedophile for smiling at or making "goo-goo eyes" at a baby or toddler. But that goes with the territory.
Thanks to you for articulating many of these ongoing issues.
Rated

Thank you Jodi! You Rock!

Pawed for keeping it real!

@Boanerges1 -- "It's one of the most underreported crimes in society, although not as prevalent, obviously, as wife-battering."

If its the most underreported, how do you know?

@Jodi-

Great post. There is one more you should add. Women can say what you said to women and get a 31 rating. Men can't do that. They get derided, dismissed, or ignored.

Brilliant points, Jodi, thanks for writing this. You know, if it were a male poster pointing out the same inequalities, uh... this would be a different environment down here in comment-land.

I personally don't feel like messing with gender roles and reversing them just for equalities' sake; I'm quite happy to do dishes and laundry and pet care while he does maintenance, trash, and dangerous things like climbing up on the roof or figuring out what's clogging the sweeper. I am appreciative of the societal changes happening to the big stereotypical things like childcare, household income contribution, and general tenderness becoming less gender-specific, but it will still be well after my lifetime when these things are completely stripped of gender association.

Rated enthusiastically for the bits that make me appreciate the delicious differences between men and women, and look forward to a day when my guy will clean out the catbox.

Soap Box Amy:

"(after teaching abnormal psychology, I can assure you that the paraphilias, or sexual perversions, etc., are ONLY a male category), etc."

Then female teachers who have sex with their 13 yr old students don't fall into that category, right? Aberrant sexual deviation is not gender specific.

@ChangeAgent -- "In truth the vast majority of men are sexist assholes who really do think we are inferior because we lack the penis."

In truth the vast majority of men are tired as all get out with self-righteous venom-spewing pseudo-feminists like yourself.

This was a post where you had an opportunity to put your "feminist" bemoanings to the test. You failed. Rather than point out how your philosophy revolves around the enlightenment and uplifting of everyone-- regardless of the name you call (feminism, egalitarianism-- whatever ism), you instead use your comment to trot out all the rotton "feminist" "I'm such a victim" nonsense.

So stop being a mean vindictive --person-- and go learn how to do some plumbing. Then you'll be doing your part. The state of the world starts with you-- with each of us-- with all of us.

Brilliant analysis, Jodi.

Back when I taught preschool, we had one man working there, Mr. Gary the bus driver. The kids LOVED Mr. Gary, and he loved the kids. I wrote once--for a grad school creative writing class--about teaching preschool, and half of the class said I needed more in there to prove that Mr. Gary wasn't a creep or a pedophile.

I went back and looked at the essay, and there wasn't anything in there that would indicate he was any of those things. Just that he was a man, working with small children.

(And we need MORE Mr. Garys, especially in areas where most of the kids are being raised by single mothers. The boys grow up not having a clue how a good man is supposed to act, and the girls grow up not expecting any better.)

Very well put. I'm intimidated by the amount of comments here, but I want to read them all. Eek!

@Changeagent -- "There is a reason prisons are predominantly full of men and not women. "

The prisons are full primarily of non-violent drug offenders, courtesy of our fucking idiotic "war on drugs" we've been enriching-- er, fighting for the last three decades.

Another one you missed-- men are admonished (and arrested) for hitting women, but women are (nearly) never arrested and even expected to hit men when they feel like they need to. Assault is assault. Its the mental thing behind it-- not how much damage you're able to do with your hand or fist-- or baseball bat or butcher knife.

ChangeAgent - I don't have to be a full time stay at home mom to appreciate your perspective. My mom was one for years. She gave up her independence to take care of her kids. Having read your blog, I know you have a good one in the man, but many women are not so lucky. Which is why I counsel against women letting a man be their only source of income. You become very vulnerable. Kids can be hostages.

I'm going to go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps that came out wrong. Perhaps it only SOUNDED like you're telling me I have lost my independence and am at the mercy of a man. I'll pretend that's not what I just heard.

But, assuming that wasn't your intent, I'll tell you the God's honest truth - I have independence. I don't have a boss. I AM the boss. I have constructed my life that way. I chose it, I love it and I believe my family is better off for it. Those who choose something else do so because their families are better off that way. My choice to be a stay at home mother does not mean that someone else's choice to work is wrong. It simply means they chose a different path that was best for their family.

If a woman feels that she does not have that right to choose to stay home with her children without the fear that her "loss of financial independence" will cause her to lose everything she has, including her children, then why the hell would she trust her LIFE to him?

It is a woman's responsibility to educate herself about financial issues and have an equal hand in controlling household finances. If a man has a problem with your name being on an account, mortgage or loan, RUN. Period.

I also find it strange that when men choose to be the stay-at-home parent, they aren't told they are setting themselves up to be victimized financially. They are roundly applauded.

Financial abuse should be cause for prosecution, not for women abandoning their chosen life path out of fear or suspicion. That is simply taking the old robbery of career choice and replacing it with a new one. I refuse to be robbed of my choices by women just as adamantly as I refuse to be robbed by men.

I wrote this because, as many of the men here have pointed out, a man could not. That should speak volumes right there. Many truths make up the spectrum of our society. I want to do my own small part to fight for the men who do right. They are legion.

My husband deserves better.
My ex-husband deserves better.
My sons deserve better.

Is it progressive to replace judgmental and aggressive men with judgmental and aggressive women?

mr. e, you are not a feminist. I am. I do my own basic plumbing and electrical work, change my own oil, and mow my own yard. Thank you very much.

Since leaving my parent's home I have paid for myself every step of the way as well. I have always worked in male dominated fields and know the score. I get promoted because I am aggressive, stand up for myself, never slack off and work more hours than the men. Most of my friends are men and I go out with them to bars for happy hour, but I know that when I leave I am called a ball busting bitch. They may mean it with grudging admiration, but there is still resentment. I am a woman and as such innately inferior, so how dare I perform better than they?

I refuse to buy into some pie in the sky men are being treated badly fantasy world where they need equal rights when in fact the world is set up for men. If it was set up for women, there would be child care at work just as a for instance and all insurance companies would cover birth control costs.

When women beat, rape and kill men at the rate men beat, rape and kill women we can talk about how oppressed your gender is.

@Soap Box Amy -- "The USA has yet to have a female president "

And you want to lay that at the feet of men... how?

There are more women of voting age in the U.S. than men. And yet there has been no female president. And somehow that's a male issue. You should be talking to your sisters-- apparently you and they don't all think the same. Otherwise you could (all) have anything you want-- you're the majority. Not my (or men's) fault if you don't vote that way.

When women beat, rape and kill men at the rate men beat, rape and kill women we can talk about how oppressed your gender is.

Well... there's somethin' to shoot for.

I do not applaud men who stay at home with no source of independent income either.

@Soap Box Amy -- "And yes, men DO abandon their children every day."

So who is it abandoning children at fire stations, hospitals, police stations, and all those "safe place" signs you see-- or in toilets, trash cans, dumpsters, under bushes, behind the school house?

@Soap Box Amy -- "But sadly enough, although most men are NOT rapists and abusers of women, how many of them ever speak or stand against male violence?"

Probably just about the same number as people like you speaking out for male rights.

Far be it from me to interrupt here, but could this finger pointing nonsense about who is more oppressed than everyone else possibly have ANYTHING to do with the issue?

Maybe?

Why are we so violently opposed as a society to seeing that men have a hard way to go these days too?

Why does pointing out the inequalities toward men automatically have to mean negating those obvious inequalities suffered by women?

Why did me pointing out these wrongs toward men have to mean I am some how in the dark about the oppression of women?

I agree. Many people have noted the custody disparity, and I have known of awful women who play the victim and win custody when the more deserving father barely gets visitation. Those shirts you describe are awful. They shouldn't be allowed in school.
I also don't believe in trading sex for chores. Eh? I have heard of this once, and I pitied the state of this person's marriage.
You hit many nails on the head, sister.

I'd also like to point out that, in spite of my current career choices, I have seen a good deal of what the world is like.

@Changeagent -- "mr. e, you are not a feminist. I am."

Then by all means, go right ahead and show me what true feminism is all about. I'll sit back and prepare to be enlightened.

regarding the workplace ~

Our schools are dominated by women ... female teachers outnumber male teachers probably 10:1 (just a guess) and I can tell you that women equally perpetrate the same kind of workplace crap on other women that men are constantly criticized for ... I think the problem is more about power and control than gender.

I've worked in both environments and I received far better/kinder/equal treatment in the more male dominant environment.

Just sayin' ...

@Changeagent -- "I am called a ball busting bitch. "

Could be they don't mean it as a term of endearment. It may very well translate about one-to-one to the similar male epithet: ASSHOLE.

@Jodi -- "When women beat, rape and kill men at the rate men beat, rape and kill women we can talk about how oppressed your gender is.

Well... there's somethin' to shoot for."


Jodi-- let me say I so LOVE this post-- right on! Feminism-- whatever you call it ism-- THIS is the right track.

ABSOLUTELY.

Five thumbs up from me!

rated rated rated ... if I could rate it a dozen times, I would ... nice analysis :)

Nice, well thought out and written article.

But the line "We still only make a fraction of what men do on a per-dollar basis. (76 cents I believe?)" is not correct.

While the average female American appears to make 76 center on the "male dollar", this metric is not a fair or revealing figure. Research has shown that at least 75% of that discrepancy is due to the choices women make in their careers, compared to the choices men make.

The idea that the "76 cents" figure tries to push is that there is significant amounts of systemic gender pay inequality, when that is just not the case.

Here's a web article on the subject: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/04/the_truth_about_the_pay_gap.html

I know there have been at least one scholarly article written on the topic as well, but I was unable to find it at the moment.

@Jodi -- "
Why does pointing out the inequalities toward men automatically have to mean negating those obvious inequalities suffered by women?"

It doesn't. And if I can make a point by way of a somewhat morbid analogy- Suppose we take all the men and women and put them up against the wall in two lines and start shooting them. Then someone says "Wait- not the women" so we stop shooting the women. Well, things work out well for the women-- good for them they had an advocate. However, things are still just the same for men. Nothing for them has changed."

The point I'm making is that its not an either/or thing. You don't have to lift women UP by putting men DOWN. Or vice versa. BOTH sexes have *wonderful valuable* qualities and as individuals can be pretty nice or pretty shitty. I've personally met both kinds. But I cannot make sweeping negative generalizations that have no substantial basis-- without rightfully being called a "sexist pig". Same for you. Why is women can spew all that crap and nobody call them on it-- how come they're not called "sexist pigs"??

ChangeAgent -- Soap Box Amy -- You BOTH are female sexist pigs-- ponder that awhile, discover the truth of it, and then decide to be different-- and then rejoin the human race.

SJurgenson - I addressed that in the comments earlier:

GWool made some good points in a PM about the non-scientific nature of the "76 cents on the dollar" thing. Please understand that I am ignorant about statistics. I'm not a statistician, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Take that statistic with a grain of salt, to be fair.

Thanks for the links, though.

So, so true. I wish you would talk to my ex-wife.

We had a relatively amicable divorce. We are both well-compensated professionals and she makes more than me.

However, she used the default maternal prerogatives of our state to become the primary parent, in the most mercenary way possible. We negotiated the parenting plan and child support at slightly more than the minimum. About a year later, after she was able to move up to a better job (with increased time requirements), she found it convenient to allow me to have 50% custody. So she has the convenience of splitting child care time, but the legal option of cutting it back whenever she likes.

I'm not complaining -- things could be much, much worse. She is (for the moment) quite cooperative with schedules and we each have keys to each other's houses in order to drop keys off, pick up clothes, etc.

But it really rankles me that after a 12 year marriage that was in all respects an equal partnership, the entire onus of proving parental fitness falls on the father.

I don't think she even sees that her behavior makes her less pleasant for the kids to be around. And from my perspective, any woman who would treat her ex-husband with that level of disrespect is not relationship material. Because as you point out, it is all about respect.

Jodi,

Appreciated. You have boldly gone where no man would dare. I enjoyed the post and also the comments – even the ones that strayed a little. It just makes me realize once again (IMHO) that life is hard. As Scott Peck noted in The Road Less Traveled, once he accepted that reality, he was able to transcend it. That has been my experience too.
Rated

To those who make the argument that 'woman become teachers and men become CEO's' therefore men make more than women, there are two stats that come to mind.

First, woman with post-graduate degrees (MD, PhD, MS, MA, MBA) still make less than men with comparable education. So men still make more than women with the same jobs.

Second, when racial factors are taken into account, on average, black college-educated women make just $2,000 more a year than high-school educated white men. So black women get systematically discriminating against two times.

More info can be found at


http://www.pay-equity.org/

Holy Moly. Your husband is the luckiest fucking guy in the world and I am VERY jealous of him.

Woman, you are a genius!!

I used to work for a company in the mid-west about twenty years ago, early 1980's. It was a small-but-growing company with about 100 or so employees. The company produced electronic products and so had a small in-house assembly line that employed pretty much all women. Whether as a policy or circumstance, I don't know, but that's the way it was. There were only two men in the whole assembly / manufacturing area, me and my supervisor whose jobs it was to test and troubleshoot any errant assemblies, and to fix / repair any returned bad / broken units that came back from customers.

Everybody got along with everybody and it was generally a very friendly environment. But the assembly / manufacturing area was _very_ definitely controlled by the women. There were posters of good-looking men hanging on the walls-- particularly the infamous "Burt Reynolds / Playgirl" centerfold that hung right beside the time clock. The conversation between the girls (and sometimes back and forth with us) was often about as raunchy and nasty as I've ever heard in my life-- you would never think in a zillion years some of the stuff I heard could have come out of those pretty and delicate-looking mouths.

But the icing on the cake was their "Golden Dildo" award that they gave each other humorously as a reward for good work. They had taken a length of styrofoam (a good-sized length), carved into a heavily-veined phallic appendage, attached two styrofoam balls to the base, and then dripped it with copious amounts of a white silicon-glue to give it that evocative effect, and then mounted the whole thing on a wooden base.

This was the "award" the women gave each other each week as the reward for the best work performance. It wasn't a "company sponsored" thing-- although it was a very small company and there wasn't anybody who *didn't* know about it. It was just the thing, and tolerated.

With regard to the salary issue, this is just one more way that unions can make a difference. Public school teachers, for instance. There is a salary schedule, and it does not differentiate on the basis of sex. So, two people, a man and a woman who have the same education and the same years of experience, will be making the same salary.

Comparing different types of work becomes a little more difficult, of course.

"First, woman with post-graduate degrees (MD, PhD, MS, MA, MBA) still make less than men with comparable education. So men still make more than women with the same jobs"

I see this a lot too-- my take on it is that there may still be some disparity but maybe not for the obvious reason. My observation is that despite the qualifications listed as "required" in the job description, at the end of the day companies just want people who can *get* the job done and everything else is gravy. And beyond that, they are looking for people who "fit well" within the company-- don't upset the personnel dynamics, get along with the others, etc. And beyond that, the personal adds-- what can a particular person do that's above and beyond the stated definition of their job-- take a lead role, fix something in another department, pull in an important customer-- whatever it is-- stand out somehow and get noticed. Finally-- when it comes down to promotions and raises-- there are only so many that can go around-- its a commodity-- even if there are more qualified individuals-- there is an aspect of "politicking" in any environment-- selling yourself and your accomplishments. My take on companies is that their mentality is most often "What have you done for me lately?"

One other point--more a question really-- about women in the workplace, especially in areas that have been traditionally male-- it may not be *fair* to the woman, and I'm *not* excusing it-- but many times the people there may "resent" a woman coming in because of a new fear of "sexual harassment lawsuits". Women have made it difficult for men to know how to interact with women on the job place. You, as a woman may say "Come on-- just be civil", and that may be a good easy thing to say-- but it doesn't automatically remove the fear or instantly school them on knowing the right or appropriate things to say. There is more to being accepted in a new environment than just showing up. And that's true whether its a male-dominated environment, female-dominated environment, black-dominated environment, etc-- you may be "supposed to be there"-- but *they* have to get used to you and accept you. It goes both ways.

ChangeAgent:

"mr. e, you are not a feminist. I am. I do my own basic plumbing and electrical work, change my own oil, and mow my own yard. Thank you very much."

Lie. What you do around the house (or don't do) doesn't make you a feminist. Last I checked, Feminism was about a woman CHOOSING her own path in life, having the freedom to make her own choices (and own them) . . .not whether or not she knows how to change the oil in the car.

"Since leaving my parent's home I have paid for myself every step of the way as well. I have always worked in male dominated fields and know the score. I get promoted because I am aggressive, stand up for myself, never slack off and work more hours than the men. Most of my friends are men and I go out with them to bars for happy hour, but I know that when I leave I am called a ball busting bitch. They may mean it with grudging admiration, but there is still resentment. I am a woman and as such innately inferior, so how dare I perform better than they?"

Amy, with all respect, why are you so angry? It is almost as if you EXPECT to be demeaned and mistreated.

"I refuse to buy into some pie in the sky men are being treated badly fantasy world where they need equal rights when in fact the world is set up for men. If it was set up for women, there would be child care at work just as a for instance and all insurance companies would cover birth control costs."

Hmm and the family court system is so unbiased isn't it? Regarding the insurance issue, birth control is a preventative, not a treatment. (some companies will cover it , ie the pill, if it is used to treat a condition, like PMDD) Medications like Viagra are used to treat ED, its not a preventative. This was what our carrier told me over the phone.

"When women beat, rape and kill men at the rate men beat, rape and kill women we can talk about how oppressed your gender is."

Project much?

Oh, and speaking of sexual harassment, this is a link to an SNL parody of an old training film on sexual harassment. As much as I don't like to admit it, I think there is a lot of truth here.

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/sexual-harassment/258532/

Just wanna say, it's way different over here(Ireland). I know some men who got their children instead of the mothers. It's not really a big deal. Although I do feel a bit bad for some girls around the age 10-12 living with a single dad. That first period must be so awkward! And also, if I saw a dying lawn I'd probably think "Cool, it looks worse than mine. The people in that house must be mad lazy/work a lot/don't care."
Sure, doubt I'd even notice unless it was crazily overgrown. Not sure how I'd react in the toy shop since I don't have any kids, but I'd probably be paro and think "Omg they want my baby!!" regardless of gender.
I only have one girl friend so guys being pervy I'm used to. They just get freaked out sometimes when I'm pervy back about a guy! And if someone in the area was like "Let's better the community!" I'd laugh at them and tell them to get a life or something. Or pick up a copy of an MMORPG.
But I am living in a bad part of Dublin and a young "adult" so I'm mainly concerned with drinking.

My biggest problem these days is how the media treats women. It seems that girls are lining up to become sex objects and they're happy about it!
Am I the only one who sees a problem here?
And gender bashing ftl. hate those shows ;[

Well said. The thing is, everyone, male or female, young or "mature", or whatever, has some inherent advantages, whether biological or societal. Deal with it. Use your advantages (as long as it is legal), and minimize your disadvantages. And quit griping about what you can't change.

ChangeAgent- I recommend you read this article

http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

Gender roles effect men as well as women, just in a different way. For every man that reaches a position of high privilege, there are probably two that have been destroyed by the pressures of society and are in prison, addicted to drugs, homeless, or have already committed suicide. Also most men would not consider rape, what a horrible thing to say. The kind of talk you hear in locker rooms and male settings should not be taken too seriously. Men don't always mean what they say in those settings, it's often just a bunch of stupid guys competing to be the most macho/manly. Homosexuals receive similar treatment in those settings but it doesn't mean that all or even a majority of the individuals involved have any real animosity towards gay people.

The pay gap is a myth, here is the relevant information

http://www.iwf.org/campus/show/18948.html

If you really want to see some other horrible injustice that are gender related, you should read about Dads that are forced to pay for child support after they find out that they are not the biological parents.

Or even some crazier cases like sperm donors who are forced to pay child support: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2007/12/04/Sperm-donor-ordered-to-pay-child-support/UPI-30201196792541/

The pay gap is a myth, here is the relevant information

http://www.iwf.org/campus/show/18948.html

If you really want to see some other horrible injustice that are gender related, you should read about Dads that are forced to pay for child support after they find out that they are not the biological parents.

Or even some crazier cases like sperm donors who are forced to pay child support: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2007/12/04/Sperm-donor-ordered-to-pay-child-support/UPI-30201196792541/

Excellent points, Jodi. All of them.

I also think that if a man wants an evening out in the company of male friends.... he should have the opportunity. He should be able to have the chance to talk freely and openly with them, and be able to completely relax and not be at all guarded. Women are able to have dinners and lunches out with their women friends and have the freedom for "girl talk" without it being seen as either sexual discrimination or neglect of their spouse. It's harder for men to be cut that same slack. In both cases, I think it is good, and healthy for human beings to have a night to relax completely and enjoy themselves competely with people of their own gender without having to worry about offending anyone. Human beings, whatever our respective genders NEED this steam vent and pleasure therapy.

Rated

@ChangeAgent, @SoapBoxArmy
I am writing this as someone who guest posts pro-feminist articles on Glenn Sacks blog... You are coming from not only a really bad place, but a very mistaken one. The reason that men are in jail for DV and women are not is because most of the time men do not call the police for DV on their wives, and when they do the wives usually do not get jail time (or in the case of my ex, even a criminal record... despite being found guilty - by the way, she still got custody of our son).
Most murders of children are by the mother, with step fathers being in second place, fathers actually rate below strangers.
Sexual assaults of children are committed by women regularly, but are often dismissed because it is assumed that women do not do that sort of thing. Does that mean women are bad? No, but it does mean that your attitudes are sexist in the extreme, and serve only to hurt people and make the situation worse. By the way, I have been around many women who passed out at parties. I have never raped one of them, and if it was in a place where there was a high risk (lots of random people) I have stayed by their side to protect them. As stated on my blog at one point (http://logic11.wordpress.com) I passed out at a party once and woke up to something untoward being done to me by a female. See, it happens on all sides.

Has anyone noticed that it's virtually impossible to find a Father's Day card that doesn't presume your father drinks a lot of beer, plays golf, and watches TV all day?

My father does none of the three, and so it takes forever to find him a card.

The first feminist blog that I actually agree with.

When is the last time any of you women gave a man a compliment? The last time I got a compliment from a woman was probably 1995. The reason men don't take a stand for violence against women is because most of you aren't worth it. Why should I take a stand for someone who regularly treats me like dirt?

As a stay at home Dad and the primary caretaker for my son for most of his life, I want to thank you for this posting. Made my day.

Here is the conclusion of the article I posted for those who don't want to read the whole thing.

"Conclusion

To summarize my main points: A few lucky men are at the top of society and enjoy the culture’s best rewards. Others, less fortunate, have their lives chewed up by it. Culture uses both men and women, but most cultures use them in somewhat different ways. Most cultures see individual men as more expendable than individual women, and this difference is probably based on nature, in whose reproductive competition some men are the big losers and other men are the biggest winners. Hence it uses men for the many risky jobs it has.

Men go to extremes more than women, and this fits in well with culture using them to try out lots of different things, rewarding the winners and crushing the losers.

Culture is not about men against women. By and large, cultural progress emerged from groups of men working with and against other men. While women concentrated on the close relationships that enabled the species to survive, men created the bigger networks of shallow relationships, less necessary for survival but eventually enabling culture to flourish. The gradual creation of wealth, knowledge, and power in the men’s sphere was the source of gender inequality. Men created the big social structures that comprise society, and men still are mainly responsible for this, even though we now see that women can perform perfectly well in these large systems.

What seems to have worked best for cultures is to play off the men against each other, competing for respect and other rewards that end up distributed very unequally. Men have to prove themselves by producing things the society values. They have to prevail over rivals and enemies in cultural competitions, which is probably why they aren’t as lovable as women.

The essence of how culture uses men depends on a basic social insecurity. This insecurity is in fact social, existential, and biological. Built into the male role is the danger of not being good enough to be accepted and respected and even the danger of not being able to do well enough to create offspring.

The basic social insecurity of manhood is stressful for the men, and it is hardly surprising that so many men crack up or do evil or heroic things or die younger than women. But that insecurity is useful and productive for the culture, the system.

Again, I’m not saying it’s right, or fair, or proper. But it has worked. The cultures that have succeeded have used this formula, and that is one reason that they have succeeded instead of their rivals."

@SomeGuy222

Interesting take.

Woah, Morph999.
Bitter much? I doubt you're going to find any worth while women with that attitude. You'll just keep moaning forever.
Ugh, hate guys like that. It's really not my fault they can't get laid. Why do they expect me to sleep with them just because I'm female?

Thanks to everyone who has commented!
The response to this particular article is admittedly more than I'm used to around here. I'm grateful to everyone for their opinions.

It's something that I feel strongly about because I have many men in my life who have encouraged me and respected that I am more than my gender or job title. I feel that I owe them the same kindness.

Great post Jodi! I used to tell a feminist friend of mine that men would change when we raise our sons differently...and yeah...as I high school teacher, I CAN see the change!

As for Change Agent, I have spent a great deal of my life in male dominated professions, including the U.S. Marine Corps, where there are currently about 6% women. (roughly 10,000 of 170,000 total!) and jobs as a Deputy Sheriff in two separate county jails. I can honestly say, that there are shitheads and there are jewels, just like anywhere.

YES...the vibe can be scary when you are SO outnumbered. I remember the first encounter, after the all woman boot camp, with that sort of ratio, when I hit the chow hall on my first day of advanced training at NAS Memphis...and realized that among over 2500 people, only my companion and myself were women. Try THAT on for size.

However, the good ones are everywhere. Despite the jerks...and there were a few, I also had a group of "brothers" who made it their duty to be my friends, guardians and general goofball entertainment. It ain't always as you say it is.

Great article. You are what I currently call an "equalitarian", as opposed to a feminist. You truly believe in equality for the sexes.

Two points:

(1) Currently, unmarried childless woman actually make more than men of the same age in first-world societies. They pay gap doesn't occur until the "mommy gap" when females take time off and lose seniority.

(2) Soap Box Amy has obviously never heard of Dr. Warren Farrell, three-time member of the N.O.W. board of directors who was kicked off when he began to talk about the taboo fact that man are abused by women sometimes.

Keep on thinking critically and not just blindly following the sexists!

triflij, it's nice that you found an article that supports your claims with NO SOURCES. Better luck next time.

plus, I'm guessing if a guy wrote this post he would get some totally different responses to it!

What always gets to me a little is when I see articles reporting that when such-and-such survey was done, it was found that women who work outside the home, STILL do more of the household chores, e.g. laundry, cooking, cleaning. BUT, they never take into account the types of things that men do around the home like keeping the cars maintained, doing yard work, painting, fixing things, cleaning the garage, moving furniture around, landscaping, remodeling, fixing, etc.

For the love of all that is holy, if you are going to make a statement about reality like 'the pay gap is a myth', please provide some statistics to back it up. Otherwise we can just claim whatever we feel like can't we?

All I have seen is declarative statements with no statistical support.

Something's really bothering me, about this "Mowing the lawn and doing gardening." I've always thought of that as more of a womans thing, probably because I love gardening.
So what's with that? I only know two guys that would do the garden work, one being my ex the other being a veteran.

My parents got divorced over 20 years ago (in the state of RI). I was allowed to pick which parent I wanted to live with... all 4 of us were. We all picked my dad.

I was 13-14 at the time... my brother is a year or 2 younger. I didn't know how weird that was until many years later. I was the only person I knew (outside my family) who lived with my dad. I thought they all picked their moms... go figure.

rated.

P.S. I'm not holding open the &*%&*^(&(* door. I'm the one carrying all the heavy stuff!

morph999:

We are not worth defending? Wow, that's deep.

I'm going to guess that you have been screwed over by a woman in the past? If that is true, I'm sorry, but not all of us are nasty harpies who treat men like shit.

Excellent post Jodi. My son just called me from LA and said that you are the #2 spot on reddit! You go!

Jeanette D:

LMFAO! That SNL Parody is priceless! :)

My husband works in a female dominated organization - he is the token male on the leadership team - I think he would be nodding his head in agreement at your words!

Jodi, I enjoyed reading your post and had a good laugh at many of the comments herein (some are so sad it's actually funny).

I have to add my two cents though, so for all that make it this far down the list, bear with me.

I am one of the dads that Jodi describes (concerning custody). I am also one "those" type of men in the military (19 years - moving to 20 and retirement...). I have also been categorized as a "type A" but not an asshole (at least I think so) - alot of guys in military service are type a personalities while, at the same time, there are many who aren't.

What I would like to say is that at least one woman I know of personally doesn't deserve a pot to piss in. My ex-wife. While I wish her no harm or difficulties (she does well enough on her own) I have to say that she is probably one of the hardest women I have ever known to respect.
Ours was not an "amicable" divorce. At the time, I was still new to the military way of life and to the rank and file of its machine. I did not get much by way of pay. I was fine with that, I knew the rules and they worked. Then I got married. A sweetheart while we were dating, she turned into the meanest and most man hating person I had ever met after the vows were passed.
To spare the details, we separated and petitioned for custody of our son. I had a steady job, steady pay, excellent health benefits, given housing, etc. She had no job and a proven gambling addiction. Who got the boy? Not I.
Fifteen years later and a many instances of proving myself to the courts (over child support) and being vindicated I still only get supervised visits one weekend per month, two weeks per summer.
(Oh and did I mention that she was/is an abuser of men?) When I actually tried to report to the police, I was the one put out of the house and treated as a criminal. All she had to tell them was that I made her feel threatened and off to a cell I was taken until my superiors came to "sign" for me. It wasn't until I showed them my bruised nutsack and thighs that they believed she was kneeing me in the "precious". Nevertheless, I was only allowed to go and collect my stuff from the house under Military Police supervision. Anyway, water under the bridge. The point is, the shit does happen and it does get reported. Nothing ever came of it (except the divorce decision).


A word of advice to people who like to quote stats...beware of "statisticulation" or the manipulation of statistics. It's rare when a statistic is given with the data only. The interpretation (and explanation of the same) can be misleading, whether intentionally or not, when not looked at or presented objectively.

Ooops, I mispoke. #1 on reddit! Thanks to cartouche for passing this on. Jodi, you have over 25,000 hits!

I had a boatload of things to say to the various comments presented here, but as I kept reading and they just kept building and building up I decided I have a better idea.

I now refer anyone who truly cares about these issues to the works of Michael Kaufman, a great male feminist and activist. Here is a link

http://www.michaelkaufman.com/1999/10/04/the-7-ps-of-mens-violence/

of an article named "The Seven P's of Men's Violence" where he examines this social phenomena with a fairness and insight I have not seen anywhere else.

Again, I cannot stress how much I believe that anyone who considers themselves a proponent of "Change" will benefit from this man's work and contributions.

Discuss?

http://www.michaelkaufman.com/

And his main page. Seriously, read, read, read his work, go through his lectures, and come back here and say he hasn't hit the nail right on the head every time.

This is a great article! Especially when it comes to sexuality, men are considered pigs, when, personally, I think I know more women who are just as if not more perverted and promiscuous. It's incredible unfair and I know that one day when I have children of my own, I will teach them that boys and girls are equal because they are. And when someone becomes biased and blames my boy for doing something that my girl could get away with, I'll fight for him and vice versa. True feminism is based on EQUALITY of the sexes, in which nowadays what I like to call radical feminists have turned it into a Guiness World Record challenge of how many times women can file a sexual harrassment lawsuit against their coworkers. It's so ignorant and I'm tired of those women giving good, fair women a bad name.

I have a wonderful husband (most days) and two wonderful sons and a grandson. They are all different, and I couldn't and wouldn't want to live without a single one of them.

I would like to point out for anybody reading down this far-- that this post has become meteoric. Its ratings have shot through the roof. Apparently its getting high visibility on Reddit as well.

This is proof in my mind that the issue of "equality" is *far* from being settled. Especially from a male perspective. If anything, this post illustrates in twenty-foot glowing neon letters that there is a lot more conversation and coming together between men and women that needs to occur. For women to simply say "this is what we think and therefore its equal" seems a little premature.

And if I haven't said it often enough or loud enough-- I *love* this post. Thank you thank you thank you!

Can you hear this? I'm applauding. I've been saying these sorts of things for many years.

If we believe in fairness, justice and equal rights, they must be for everyone. Of course, there still needs to progress in rights for women, but they should not come at the expense of men. Most men have no more power in society than women.

It is counter-productive to blame men in general for all the ills of society. It's counter-productive to set up the 'us and them' dynamic. It's counter-productive to encourage direspect of men. There is a self-fullfilling prophecy at work when we expect men to behave badly.

If there is any hope for a more humane, healthy, civilized society, we need to break away from the stereotypes of both men and women and really think about the consequences of bashing both genders.

You had me at "crack pipe in the court room". How true it is. Sadly, you just glanced upon the financial burden brought to bear upon the father. Each case is different, but the dirty secret in America is the cookie cutter approach to almost all custody cases. A formula in the law book tables to determine how much to extract from men's paychecks. Politicians, judges and lawyers make me ill.

That should be - "It's counter-productive to encourage disrespect of men. "

jodi, i would like to see some of your statistics for this:
"Thousands of men in America today are routinely physically abused by women."

i'm also super-curious about what gwool sent you.

besides that, i think you make some excellent points. for years, my dad has insisted that men get a raw deal when it comes to family expectations/identities. most tv dads are total idiots and their wives are depicted as the knowing matriarchs. just a few months ago, a married pair of activists swore to me that the world would be better if women were in charge, and i think that's total garbage. my evidence is ann coulter. nancy grace too, and condaleeza rice...

anyway, if we could treat each other as individuals this would all go away. every creed, color and gender is equally predisposed to idiocy and competence. it's the person inside that body that you need to get to know. and no individual deserves to be treated as a stand-in for history's sins. except for ann coulter...

and for s jurgenson:
"Even after controlling for hours, occupation, parenthood, and other factors known to affect earnings, the research indicates that one-quarter of the pay gap remains unexplained and is likely due to sex discrimination. Over time, the unexplained portion of the pay gap grows."
http://www.aauw.org/about/newsroom//pressreleases/042307_paygap.cfm

your realclearpolitics article seems to have skipped over that point in their analysis of the study i linked.

Bstrangely - I used statistics I found at www.batteredmen.com. I did not directly quote the number there in the article because the site does not include information about how they got to the number of 835,000 battered men per year. Nor does it say it is a U.S. only number.

But, if even 1% of their statistic is correct, that's over 8,000 abused men per year. For me, the number means nothing. One battered woman is too many. One battered man is too many.

There's no big mystery about what GWool sent. It was also covered here thoroughly - the figure of women making less than men per dollar. It's a favorite statistic on one side and a favorite way to point out inaccuracy on the other. That's why I said, take it with a grain of salt.

Thanks for all your comments everyone! I'm off to spend some time with the family.

Be excellent to each other!
Party on!

Interesting: Up to a certain point, all comments here are by OSers with established blogs. Then 8 different new people join solely to comment on this posting, and they seem to share similar opinions.

"STILL do more of the household chores, e.g. laundry, cooking, cleaning. BUT, they never take into account the types of things that men do around the home like keeping the cars maintained, doing yard work, painting, fixing things, cleaning the garage, moving furniture around, landscaping, remodeling, fixing, etc."

And you can't stop the basic difference here? Cooking, cleaning and child care must be done every day, often for several hours a day (e.g if caring for small children). All the "men's duties" you list are done periodically, some very infrequently and many don't necessarily need to be done (or are gotten around to by homeowners ) at all.

Not to mention that it's rare these days that these chores aren't shared in both directions by both genders to a large degree.

someguy and mr. e,

i wrote a rebuttal to baumeister's speech on my other blog. i'd be curious about your opinion, because i don't think his thesis makes much sense. skip down to "dear dr. roy..."
http://strangelybright.blogspot.com/2007/08/do-not-feed-anthropic-principle.html

and @ aaron rury, way to go insisting on statistics and citations!

thank you, jodi! have fun with your fam!

but seriously, i can't just take statistics with a grain of salt. there is truth out there somewhere, and gliding around it just leaves more room for mythology. i'm not a huge capitalist, but money does make some great objective data about who has what.

and here's some fuel for the fire from my mommy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/27/books/27garn.html?_r=2&hpw

Maybe with all the talk about what feminism is (I'm looking at you, DoubleX), we should revive the idea that feminism is about not being treated differently because of your gender (while of course still promoting the idea that we should be nice to everyone, regardless of gender).

I think it would go a long way if we chose to unite men and women under a gender-issues flag. Women and men could both make the argument that custody arrangements should default to joint and simultaneously that child care/flex time should be more available for working parents. And yes, sexual harrassment (real sexual harrassment) is an issue for both men and women to work against - guys don't "like it" just because they're male.

I feel like there's a lot of opportunity here to accomplish more. Yes, men don't feel the threat of rape as keenly, and women don't deride female teachers sleeping with male students enough, but that's something to work on, not a reason to put the other gender down as the province of criminal sociopaths.

Amy's comments, while containing many valid points, are an unfortunate example of the "but what about . . ." school of argument. Rather than citing anything that is actually wrong in Jodi's article, she cites many other things that are wrong with the world. The truth of Amy's statements in no way detract from Jodi's writings; they are just a distraction. Jodi does not owe it to any of us to include any of Amy's points in her argument.

Thank You. Inequality can usually be measured, but sexism is often about how a person/gender is portrayed in society. The effect that this portrayal has on a person's self esteem is the root of the problem. I have four sons and have watched three of them making the transition from 'darling' boy to 'mistrusted' man. I work to teach them not to react negatively, but it's tough.

Nice post, Jodi! You're famous, judging by the number of people who have joined OS just to comment. :-) Me, I'll just chip in on this point:

I know there have been at least one scholarly article written on the topic [of the gender wage gap] as well, but I was unable to find it at the moment.

Google Scholar turns up 136,000 hits for the terms wage+gap+gender, and I've spent the last half hour or so browsing through them out of curiosity. Let's just say that labor economists differ on the size of "the" gender wage gap. Here's a nice [PDF] article on the methodological difficulties.

Okay, I'll also add a bit of personal experience: I like fountains, especially the kind you can chuck coins into. Sometimes in the past, when I'd visit a fountain and see little kids, I'd dig for change in my pocket and give it to them, saying, "Throw it in!" There was no problem with this at, for example, the Trevi Fountain, but here in the States I eventually realized that parents generally disapprove of adult male strangers giving their kids money. I can see their concern, though I was pretty clueless for a while. Oh, well; I don't do it any more.

Thank you Jodi, for your much-needed words.

Here's one more item to add to the heap. Actually, it discriminates against anyone who has to pay alimony (which includes my sister!), but of course that's always almost men. At the time of a divorce, each person's past earning power is observed, and that person is then effectively required to keep earning that much forever. Thus my wife, who had previously earned $10/hour but inherited a half million dollars was free to work as much or little as she wanted, while I am compelled to pay her as if I were earning as much as I ever did as a husband, whether or not I want to continue in that career, or are even capable of doing so. Indeed I had one year when I lost my professional job and was working for $12/hour when I had to pay her more than I earned, gross. Oh, and that was while I had 50% custody of our children. When I appealed this, the judge saw nothing wrong with the situation. I survived by burning through retirement savings.

These stories are all too typical -- as, of course, are the stories of deadbeat dads, who are a disgrace. But we hear a lot more about the latter.

God bless you for your compassion.

Thank you for this post. Women are far from equal to men on many valued measures in this society. But men are similarly disadvantaged by the gender roles assigned to them. Neither gender is truly free from oppression, it is just that the oppression of men takes a different form.

"Men feel the contours of a box, too, but they are told that box is of their own manufacture, designed to their specifications. Who are they to complain? The box is there to showcase the man, not to confine him. After all, didn't he build it - and can't he destroy it if he pleases, if he is a man? For men to say they feel boxed in is regarded not as laudable political protest but as childish and indecent whining. How dare the kings complain about their castles?" -Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man, by Susan Faludi

It is society building the cage around us, and until we work together to change how people think about things, nothing will truly change. The issues are too complex to take a few statistics and turn them into a broad condemnation of an entire gender.

All men, just like all women, have the capacity for compassion if they are taught it. But if they are told they are heartless, sex-crazed pigs, they won't have any idea what else they can be. And who would want to fight at the side of someone who spits venom back in their face?

@ChangeAgent: The world needs people fighting for women, it is true. There are many areas where they are still disadvantaged. There are many men who profit from, abuse, or passively exploit these unfair systems. But there are also good men out there, who want to help and cherish women. And men who are discriminated against and disadvantaged (by men and women) for choosing to be gentle, or soft spoken, or something else that goes against the stereotypes for men.

If your evidence for "most men" being pigs is the male-dominated profession you work in - can't you see that that is just one small piece of society? It probably wouldn't surprise you that gentle poets don't dominate the military/police careers - you'd point out that gentle poets often don't choose those kinds of jobs. So why don't you consider that you are seeing a subset of men who have chosen that profession and who may have other things in common, who may share views about women that are not necessarily as common in the rest of society?

There is so much pain and suffering in the world at the hands of so many different people. There are many victims in the world. But if we start sectioning off our world into various camps of "us" and "them".... Straight vs. homo/bi/pansexual, white vs. minority, Christian vs. atheist... we end up getting nothing done.

The big bad power-holder, the quintessential "straight, white, male christian", doesn't actually exist. We are fighting an idea. Everyone has their special interests. But if we just stick to our special interest group, we'll all be too small to get anything done.

Silkstone, I have a sink full of dirty dishes. Come clean them while I mow the lawn.

THANK YOU Jodi! And might I just add:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywQxR9H0xYc

You make many good points.

Super post, Jodi!

It's unfortunate that a decent thought provoking post slid downhill into a "I'm a feminist, no you're not" argument. Yes, true equality is a long way off and yes, there are still a lot of problems when it comes to things like violence towards women, equal pay, etc. But, I think you did a fantastic job of taking on traditional gender roles and making me laugh. Thumbed.

"The basic fact is that all people should be treated the same, as specified in the goddamn Constitution, and everything else is bullshit."

good job very true and in the general theme of this.... if it were written by a man would it be as well receved? no way! but i think what it comes down to is people try to compare women to men like apples to apples where it really needs to be compared like apples to oranges they each have there advantages and disadvantages i.e. an orange is a little more work but at the same time it is less fragile as with men get the gift of being naturally stronger but that means they get more heat for beating women and so on

I joined this site just so I could comment on this piece. Since I have way too much to say on this subject, for now this 33 year old male will just say: THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

I think both (or should I say all?) genders have a lot of growing still to do, but I'm mostly optimistic. But growth will only happen with a lot of forgiveness!

All I can say here is ... wow.

I am overwhelmed by the response this little morning rambling got from all quarters. I'm humbled by the numbers. Stunned and humbled.

I do apologize to everyone on OS for hogging the most read feed. Please understand that I had no idea that this sort of thing was even possible.

I thought I was well-educated about the power of the written word until today. Thank you to everyone who has read this post. I am truly grateful for all of the comments, private messages, emails, diggs, reddits and everything else.

I would be a real jerk if I didn't mention that those of you who joined OS today to comment on this post should STAY. This is the absolute - hands-down - best place to write on the internet.

For those of you already part of the OpenFamily, PLEASE use digg and reddit early and often. This post did what it did because Cartouche was nice enough to put it on reddit. I can't thank her, or the rest of you, enough!

This misogyny on display here is extremely depressing. I expected more, I'm not sure why.

Darn good stuff, Jodi! Obviously!!! "You go girl!!!" (was that sexist?!?)

This is what feminism is all about. My h was a stay at home dad. He introduced me to a real estate agent - I was house hunting, in the days when the h was just an f (friend). The agent said "how about that - he's basically a stay at home dad!" said in the same tone one might say "he likes to have cottage cheese enemas". This from a *man* - a *man* who was referred to me by the man he was bashing, a man who was enabling a great lot of money to come his way. I told him he was an asshat and went on my way.

One of the reasons I stopped watching prime time TV was b/c I was tired of men being presented as bumbling buffoons who had no redeeming quality except for having a tolerant hot wife.

rated.

Let me first say that I agree with Jodi Kasten. Great article.

Let me say to everyone, you are being manipulated by the media. None of this is going to change until you turn your TV's off because the power that be have an incentive to keep men and women at war with each other. As long as we are at war with each other, that's one less threat to their power because there is nothing more threatening to the govt than an united public. And I know people don't want to talk about conspiracy but I've done the research and I've read everything from Artistotle to Leo Strauss and let me tell you, it's true.
How many men are portrayed as idiots on tv sitcoms? Perfect example.
Women, you have to forgive the men for whatever angers you in life.
Men, we have to forgive the women.

Women have seriously fucked me over in life but I've forgiven them and I've moved on. I won't make the same mistake again but I don't walk around angry all the time and I'm not joining any kind misogynist movements.

Women, if you want men to treat you like ladies, the best thing to do is turn that TV off and allow a good male role model to teach your son how to be a man. It's the only way. TV won't do it as you have witnessed over the last 20 odd years. That means the best thing a woman can do for her kids is to be happily married to a good man. I'm not saying single women need to be married. I'm talking about what is best for your children.

I can tell you that all the good teaching in the world won't do a bit of a good for a boy if all the females around him are bitches. We have to teach our daughters that she does not have to be a man to live in this world. Teach your daughters about how to treat men as well. That is very important. Men rule the world so why would you not want to teach a woman how best to treat a man? It makes no sense and you can deny and complain until the cows come home but men will always rule the world.

Did you explain somewhere (in the comments maybe) what brought this on?

Jodi, I commend you for being honest in your post. But I must live in a different world than you. I would dearly love to live in your world where you have only met decent men, and where so many women are evil. The world I live is inequal to women by definition.

Maybe that is a function of my generation where even though I made three times what the copy boy at my newspaper made, he could get a credit card and I couldn't. Because I couldn't get a credit card, I couldn't be promoted to the job I wanted because it involved a great deal of travel. I couldn't get a loan unless a man signed it. That meant I couldn't buy a home, or even a car. And I also made less than the most junior male reporter even though I had more experience and education and actually filed my stories on time.

Many of my friends didn't take child support when their marriages broke up. They went for joint custody instead because they wanted to be independent, and their husbands still often didn't step up to the plate. Many of their husbands made six figure incomes but they were deadbeat dads if support was ordered.

It makes me very, very sad when so many younger women essentially shit on feminism and feminists, saying that it is not needed and outdated. I hear it all the time as a teacher. And yet women's rights remain extremely tenuous, are continually being eroded under right-wing governments, and they are still many gross inequities and injustices here and elsewhere as others have pointed out.

I have never believed in feminism or equality on the backs of men. I've always thought it was a movement to enhance the lives of both women and men. I have that kind of relationship with my husband. But what I'm hearing in this post and in many comments is that it is OK for women to be demonized and stomped on so that men can play the victim. If you honestly believe that the majority of men -- and studies/stats show unequivocally that men hold the balance of real power in the world -- are being unfairly treated, that is your right. But I respectfully submit that it is not borne out by the experiences of many women, or the facts.

My hands are shaking as I write this because I cannot believe that intelligent women have such loathing for other women that they would propagate the myth that women are the problem and that if only women were different, everything would be fine and dandy.

There are problem men and problem women. But the status quo favours the men in nearly every instance except from what I am hearing divorce court in the U.S. That is not always the case in other countries where joint custody is considered the ideal.

I don't think that men are the enemy. But I have always been taught to keep a watchful eye on those who hold the power, and who insist that everything would be wonderful if only women weren't such demanding bitches.

As a bit of ego boosting, i was so moved to comment on this that i actually created an account her just to do so.

After reading this, i wouldn't bother to classify you as a feminist; I'd just classify you as a person, at least the ideal of what a person should think, or feel. I consider myself a pretty open minded person, and someone who sees gender roles as a bit of a contrite little farce the world still believes in, and even i found myself second guessing, and even shocked by some of the examples you gave, mainly because i fell into the majority roles. I think what got to me the most was the part about the shirts, because you hit the male on the head. I would be shot by some of the 'empowered' women around my area if i had a 'girls suck' shirt... although my gay friends would think they finally converted me. It really is a world of double standards, where young women seem to be given the idea that it is ok to bash, and look down upon in some cases, their male counterparts.

My concern is with the future, based on what i have seen in the past. The world is getting smarter, the public is getting dumber. I need look no farther than the coddling on the public play grounds, and the restrictions in our public schools. Many of the things that were once signs of self explorations, and duties of natural progression are now repressed.. To get to the point, i would love it if the collective conscious arose to a point where yes, i could wear any one of the woman 'bashing' shirts without fear of reprisal, however i think the only way equality qould come would be if all slogans that were deemed 'demoralizing' or 'sexist' were removed from shirts, signs, and stickers, to be replaced by plain white nothingness..

i do apologize for running on..

Morph999:

"Let me say to everyone, you are being manipulated by the media. None of this is going to change until you turn your TV's off because the power that be have an incentive to keep men and women at war with each other. As long as we are at war with each other, that's one less threat to their power because there is nothing more threatening to the govt than an united public. And I know people don't want to talk about conspiracy but I've done the research and I've read everything from Artistotle to Leo Strauss and let me tell you, it's true. How many men are portrayed as idiots on tv sitcoms? Perfect example."

The media is fairly fucked up, I'll give you that. Has anyone seen a Lifetime film with a positive male role?

"Women, you have to forgive the men for whatever angers you in life. Men, we have to forgive the women."

How about we all just grow up and treat others the way WE WANT TO BE TREATED?

"Women have seriously fucked me over in life but I've forgiven them and I've moved on. I won't make the same mistake again but I don't walk around angry all the time and I'm not joining any kind misogynist movements."

I'm sorry, truly. I can relate, but from the other side of the fence. It took a while for my husband to trust me, really let me in, ya know? It wasn't because of anything I had done, but because of his ex wife, she drug him through the coals, and that left him really scared of getting close to another woman.

" That means the best thing a woman can do for her kids is to be happily married to a good man. I'm not saying single women need to be married. I'm talking about what is best for your children."

Marriage isn't always best for some people, BUT I do agree 100% that children need positive male role models in their lives.

"I can tell you that all the good teaching in the world won't do a bit of a good for a boy if all the females around him are bitches. We have to teach our daughters that she does not have to be a man to live in this world. Teach your daughters about how to treat men as well. That is very important."

Bravo! Yes.

"Men rule the world so why would you not want to teach a woman how best to treat a man? It makes no sense and you can deny and complain until the cows come home but men will always rule the world."

In a very general sense you are correct. But what do you mean by "rule the world?" True, for most of human history men have held positions of power, but who are behind those men. Their women.
Do Mothers not have influence over their Sons? Even in Ancient times women had considerable power, but their power was in their influence.

emma - I would hope you would take what jodi said, rather than what others may have said here as her opinion. I am very confused about your comment. She never said she has only met decent men. She said the men in her life are decent. She made that choice. Nor did she say women are evil. She didn't even remotely IMPLY that.

I fully respect your opinions, but please don't fill in Jodi's for her. She doesn't hate anyone. I'll repeat from the blog entry itself:

I suppose all I really want to say here is that it is wrong to judge any sex as a whole. Men and women are individuals.

She doesn't hate anyone and frankly, I am shocked and surprised after what you already know of her, that you would accuse her of saying these hateful things.

I think you misunderstood.

I read Jodi's post twice. She said that she did not know a single man who thought she was lesser because she has a vagina. That is her life experience, and she is more than entitled to report on it. She did say that she chose the men in her life, and that they are all decent. But there must be some recognition somewhere that the vast majority of women in the world are not so lucky. Maybe they don't have the right to choose the men in their lives. Maybe I should move to Florida where there are so many wonderful guys. I don't know.

I can only report on my life experience, and the experiences of many women of my generation. And frankly, from what I can see of working with young people for 8 years, things have not changed that radically except on the surface. A T-shirt may say "Boys Suck," and I don't like that either. But in the real world boys have always ruled, and in fact, still do. I'm all for sharing, but I haven't seen a whole lot of it yet.





But many, many, many other women do not share that experience

Please ignore that last sentence.

Emma - I have no hatred or loathing for women. I can't see where I should feel guilty because I have chosen to have kind men in my life. If that isn't a woman's experience, I hope she has the chance to choose better ones. In places where women do not have that right, or in situations of abuse, we should fight to the death to help them.

I think you've seen enough of my work by now to know I am not a hater of women and that I do recognize that many women don't have the choices I do. It bothers me that you think that is what was said here in any way.

The point of this piece is that men have their trials too. Recognizing that and honoring the vast majority of men in America who are not abusers of any kind is not giving an inch in the fight for women's rights. But I think it's a huge step forward in human rights. What we give to our neighbor, we give back to ourselves.

Sorry you were disappointed.

This is a great post. I thought of another example: men hitting women.

If a man hits another man, regardless of the reason, it's typically no big deal (and in some situations it's regarded as entertainment). However, if that same man hits a woman, then society regards that as wrong... no matter what the reason.

Now I'm not saying that any violence is the solution to a physical argument, but I don't think you can come up with a better example of hypocrisy when someone says it's ok for a man to hit a man but not a woman.

I do think men get a raw deal....in this country, in some ways.

I do think Jodi has made some excellent points I agree with, also, I just love Jodi, so let's make that clear.

I also think we are fortunate to live in a country where feminism as come so far that we can argue about what could possibly be considered small potatoes in a world that includes places that still stone women for being raped, or gang rapes a woman to get the lesbian out of her, or keeps her from being educated, driving, etc. There are places in the world of huge population...India, the Middle East, parts of Africa, where these kinds of arguments would seem a luxury. How wonderful it would be to have come so far that we can hammer out inequality in childcare!

Now, this does not negate Jodi's post. What she says is true. But, some of the comments below, which are not from Jodi, are pretty woman hating, and that is pretty shameful.

I have to agree with Emma in many of her points, as I usually, though sometimes quietly, do.

The feminist gains we have are delicate. This last election proved to me that this country is far, far more sexist than I ever supposed it could be, and I voted for the other guy in my party.

Yes, there are many things about feminism that have put women at a disadvantage as well, but thats a big damn argument for another time.

I will also add for no reason at all:
I have no problem with gender roles, to an extent, and by extent I mean sexually...ahem.

Jodi, good post. Great post.

But summa youse can pound sand.

I will definitely have to save this page.Thank you, Jodi, for the article and also the passionate defenses that follow.

I am a 25 yr old female with two male roommates. Living with two men has taught me how targeted young men are...by each other...by the police. If you want an example of how men are targeted more than women, look at our prison system and the predominantly male inmate population. In what area of crime are there more female arrests than male arrests? If this is not an indication of inequality, then it is a symptom of it at the very least.

I know this sounds improbable, but there are places that my roommates need me to come along with them, just to "legitimize" them, so they're not accused of loitering or unsavory intent to commit a crime...you know, cause they have a penis and they're young. Hell, just going to the bank or grocery store sometimes...They just want to walk somewhere without a suspicious eye on them. Of course there are dangerous people in the world. Some of them are men. But not all of them are men and not all men are potential criminals. Yes, these are obvious statements. They should be said more too, I think.

I'm glad I have male roommates, to be honest. They've taught me not to let my insecurities become excuses for procrastination or taking life "by the balls," if you will. (Poor taste?) And I've taught them to look at cooking as chemistry and a way of exerting independence from women. We've got each others' backs, an orphan code where gender doesn't matter. You know, one thing I've learned about living in a mini-commune ( :p) where we stress equality, is that a lot of equality can be achieved by a lack of expecting the other "side" to fuck up. And then, when they do, (cause we all do) you ask questions instead of making assumptions.
Many gender lessons have been learned as follows:

"Why do women do...this?"
"Uh...not all women do that."
"Oh. I see."

For those of you walking through the world with that will-they-or-won't-they-accost-me feeling, I prescribe platonic friends of the opposite gender. But you know, ones you might respect (admittedly difficult, but it's worth a lifetime of searching). This could be done by reaching outside of the comfort zone. A sense of humor, perhaps holding a little less sacred, especially yourself. This often works, I find, when talking to guys.

Persephone - Absolutely. I do hope that no one is going to confuse my call for father's rights with wanting more rape. Thanks for getting that and articulating what's NOT said in my piece. I think that may be where some of the confusion is coming from.

I will forever be an idealist. Perhaps that's silly, but I do seem to be doing well with it. If we could all just know each other and share a Zima... alas...

P.S. I love Persephone.
You should too.

Hoo boy! I'm not sure I want to wander into this minefield. I'm still twitching from the fallout from a gender-specific post I wrote a few months ago. I do appreciate the fact that you've got one hell of a conversation going, Jodi. :)

I get it...I do.

I even wrote a piece about men a long while back in the same heartspace, really..but you did much better.

I read this piece and through most of the comments earlier today. I had to go away and think about this it was so fascinating.

Honestly, this was one of the most thought provoking and interesting essays/comment sections I've read here (and I've read a ton of interesting things here)!

I think in these type of discussions it's best for us guys to listen, and try to learn. Thank you for the great piece of writing, and hosting the lively discussion. I've learned a bit here today.

So spot on.

Sure I have had bad experiences with men who have treated me unfairly because I am a woman - but these men and those experiences should have NO connection to any of the unfair situations you mention above. To treat all men in this skewed and unfair fashion just because some men are misogynists is hypocritical and unjust.

Go Jodi Go Jodi! Knock that Kaysong outta the park!

I have friends who never get any work done in the home because they're waiting for the other person to do it. I wish all men and women felt as your post says, that we go together, shoulder to shoulder. No one walking ahead or behind.

Sadly, I still see most of my friends dividing childcare in only one direction, one unequal direction. And home care, which should be considered a second job from child care, also proportionately in one direction. Lawn care ... same thing.

I think we should divide responsibilities down the middle and trade off as we can, doing it all together.

I do hope for a world like that someday, both at home and out in the world. :)

Jodi,

Thank you for a thoughtful and fair post. As a man, I would, at best, be called a wuss for writing about the things you mention. At worst, all the sins of men would have been thrown at me, including the great many that I have never done.

FL

@Robin

Are you here making sneed remarks again ???

:)

Since it keeps coming up:
http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/many_women_lawyers_with_kids_do_as_well_as_the_men_researcher_says
Stats about the wage gap in one specific industry. Does not support the conclusion that the gender gap is a result of sexism.
I do believe that there is sexism, but I also believe that legally men are more discriminated against, and that women are more socially discriminated against. Then again, in high school we had a male student get expelled for saying women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, while we had a female teacher who claimed that men were unthinking brutes. I didn't agree with either of them, but I think that the teacher had more influence and so deserved the greater punishment.

Thank you!

As the mom of a wonderful little boy, I look around and see all of the pro-girl things and get upset. Where's the book series like the 'American Girl' series for boys? Where's the 'boy power' slogans? Why the hell is it a bad thing for my son to be a boy?!

Add to that the fact my husband is a wonderful father and I would never seek to prevent him from spending time with our son if our marriage falls apart. I've known many great dads who either raised their children alone because of a dead beat mom, or who were shit on by the courts and the ex-wives simply because they have a penis. In fact, I know a man whose wife was given main custody of their two kids despite her having mental health issues, and now by default the dad has the kids full time. How was giving her main custody instead of the dad, who is mentally stable, better for the kids?

I'm glad I'm not the only woman out in the world who thinks that equality means exactly that. While I'm glad that we women have more rights these days than before and I'm grateful for those that worked to gain these rights for us, it's time for the man bashing to end and true equality begins. My son is no better or worse than someone's daughter simply because of his genitals and hormones.

Wonderful post. Worthy of the hits, for sure. I know the theory of pendulums swinging full force first one way, then the other; I shudder to think of the messages kids are getting with the current direction in which the pendulum is swinging. And custody rules are simply stacked against men. One thing I can report, though, is that the domestic violence shelter in my community takes in men.

I'd like to point out VR's reference to men as the "stronger sex," a stereotype no one as far as I read took exception to.

It raised for me the memory of a time when my daughter was about 12 and picked up one of the boys in her group of friends, carried him across the pool deck and tossed him in the water. The boy's mother took her aside and chided her for embarrassing the boy by carrying him, demonstrating that she was stronger than he. Until that time she had been proud of her strength but that very nearly marks the time when her size and strength became a problem. She had body fat measurements comparable to boys' but within a few years desperately wanted to be like her little 98 pound girlfriends with their much higher body fat. In her twenties she was very serious with a man until he remarked that he'd never imagined himself with such a big woman. There were other problems in the relationship, obviously, but that remark was the tipping point that very quickly ended it. The man she ultimately married is a very big man. (who does as much of the child care as she does - maybe more since it's easier for him to take time off work.) His size is part of his appeal.

At the age of 85 my mother is still crazy scarred by her 6' height. She was anorexic in the 1940's so desperate was her need to be small.

So if we're going to do away with stereotypes, let's be even-handed about it. Size and strength are among them and not all women are small or weak, not all men are bigger and stronger.

Now please excuse me while I go and easily lift the 55 lb. poodle up onto the grooming table so I can brush him out. (Yeah, no problem.)

Rated for thought provocation.

For the record, I was in the Navy for four years and was never raped or harassed or treated like I wasn't equal to the men. In fact, most of the time the majority of the men would walk on eggshells around me and other women in fear of offending a woman since a complaint of sexual harassment could destroy a career. The majority were good guys and the majority of them were family men. Yes, there were the few who were jerks in various ways, but they weren't devils like some people want to paint them as. And I'm not saying that there isn't valid cases of harassment in the military still, but I do know that many cases are bullshit stories started up by women with a grudge, plus there are the women who degrade themselves through their actions.

Anyway, it's late and I'm losing my train of thought. Just simple saying that my experience as a woman in the military was not that for an all exclusive boys club, but that of an organization that was male dominated for centuries and is still having growing pains.

Can I get an AMEN brothers and sisters?
AMEN!

MICHAEL KAUFMAN.

"Patriarchal Power: The First “P”

Individual acts of violence by men occurs within what I have described as “the triad of men’s violence.” Men’s violence against women does not occur in isolation but is linked to men’s violence against other men and to the internalization of violence, that is, a man’s violence against himself."

THE SEVEN P's OF MEN'S VIOLENCE.

Read it, absorb it.

http://www.michaelkaufman.com/1999/10/04/the-7-ps-of-mens-violence/

Fascinating! Dugg, Reddited and Rated.

Well, this post certainly made me think, and this obviously had a similar effect on many other people. Kudos.

It's good to recognize that stereotypes and inequalities exist because change cannot come without recognition. Men do suffer from societal inequalities, and this must be recognized. The court problem is quite an issue, although it is going to vary by state - child support and custody matters are decided by state courts and state law. Judges are bound to follow the law, for the most part, although judicial discretion is granted to a certain extent. If you believe this is a problem in your state, consider contacting your state legislatures about change. It takes a lot of effort to change a problem, but it is not impossible. If it makes anyone feel better, this is not the first time I've heard this issue addressed, and I believe many individuals have been lobbying their state legislatures for change. It takes time, and a lot of stubborn dedication. However, if everyone were discouraged by that fact, then little, if anything, would be accomplished. :)

Part of the problem is that we as a society need to move beyond the nuclear family ideal in order to move towards gender equality. These inequalities will continue to exist as long as people hold on to old-fashioned stereotypes: male bread winners, stay at home moms, girls play with dolls, etc. Although this is just my nutshell explanation - universities design courses around this topic.

Finally, those of you who think that women have not been rapists, pedophiles, etc., you need to do some more research. Male victims of female sex crimes are far less likely to report crimes to the police, which makes statistics misleading. They are usually too afraid to come forward because of the male/female sex stereotypes. If you don't believe me, try reading the book "The Courage to Heal," which specifically refers to incidents of female sex crimes.

ChangeAgent: "When women beat, rape and kill men at the rate men beat, rape and kill women we can talk about how oppressed your gender is."

Um, men are physically stronger. That's down to biology, which is not fair when it comes to physicality. Not a damn thing we can do about it. But consider this: do you really think that women would be less likely to mete out physical punishment against men, if they had equal or greater strength. Look at that horrible woman soldier at Abu Ghraib, look at all the young women who feel spurned by a man and find a bigger male friend to kick his ass. You really need to think through the consequences of your hate, and your personal blindnesses, a little more.

All this is true. We look down on men who stay at home, women who don't seem like great mothers. But this to me is an example of uptight Americans. All this is because of what makes men men and women women. We are wired differently and I'm grateful that I'd have my children if I split from my husband same way men are grateful for what makes them think it's so great to be men. Let's not live in a world where we're all the same and everything must be "equal" because the substance does conform to the mold for a reason, and with this do come some inequities. Losen your belts Americans and Vive La Difference.

You have basically the same opinions my wife does about this. (I actually know quite a few enlightened women who think exactly as you do.)

Thanks for posting this. Rated. Refreshing. (If there was a 'refreshing' icon, I'd totally hit it on this post.)

@Verbal Remedy -

"I hope they love me back. No competition, no stupid power games. Just mutual admiration."

This philosophy is why my wife and I have been together for nearly 10 years, longer than anyone else we know our age. We share it with you. There's no competition between us, no stupid power games.

Just mutual admiration and respect.

@Owl_says_who -
"Likewise, it would be wonderful if men could experience women as "sacred."

What would be really, truly wonderful would be if men and women could experience both men and women as sacred - if all humans saw one another as sacred.

We would truly live in paradise then, no?

Um. I hate to point this out, because I agree with your basic premise, which is that every person deserves to be treated as an individual, but your post is full of sweeping generalizations.
I tried to think about each point and did a little Googling, to see if what you said seemed reasonable.
So here are your points and my thoughts.
1) Seriously, every single time, unless Jane lights up a crack pipe in the courtroom she will get physical custody.
I think you have an outdated view of this. It's just not true anymore (if it ever was). But don't take my word for it - a little googling found me this:
1- Most (85-90%) couples choose their own parenting (custody) plans.

2- The small minority who cannot devise their own plans (about 15%) go to Family Court (many of these couples have conflict & violence).
- Women typically get custody b/c they have been ***the primary care givers***
- men - when they seek custody - are often awarded custody (70%)
- Batterers get custody disturbingly often (see: Leadership Council on Child Abuse, Stop Family Violence). An estimated 58,000 kids go into unsupervised care each year. DV is given little if any weight in Family Court (despite myths to the contrary).
Source(s):
Leadership Council on Child Abuse
STop Family Violence
Google "gender task forces"

2)If you drive by a house with a dying lawn, is your first thought about what a crappy homeowner the WOMAN is who lives there? Doubt it.
This is anecdotal on my part, but I tend to think " God, I hope whoever owns that is employed and not about to lose their house."

3)Women can openly talk in the break room about the hot new guy in Receiving. What kind of pigs are the men who talk about the hot new manager who happens to be a woman? If a woman asks a male co-worker out on a date, the worst that can happen is rejection. For a man, the worst that can happen is the loss of his job and a sexual harassment suit. Is that gender equality?
This is a sweeping generalization. Again this is anecdotal, but I know one woman who was fired for passing around porn to her male coworkers, but none of the guys got fired. Lots of guys look at porn at work. I've had conservative male coworkers who found it very annoying. Another friend of mine got fired because she went to HR about her female boss passing around sexually explicit stuff. The only guy I know who got fired for sexual harassment was, amusingly enough, fired because he sexually harassed the sexual harassment instructor they brought in. No kidding. I just think you may be totally generalizing based on the fears of men you know, rather than actual trends. And I really don't think ANY guy out there is going to say they don't talk about the hot new receptionist. And frankly, a lot of the younger generation of women give guys slack - because they know they don't HAVE to take it if a guy gets way out of line. I had another friend whose boss said he'd like to see her "covered in peanut butter and spanked", and she just stared at him and put it down to a middle-aged breakdown.

4)Women can wander the world and hug every child they see without suspicion.
After googling this a bit, it seems about 72 percent of primary caregivers (for anyone in the home) are female and even extrapolating for unreported cases, women are 5-10% of all pedophiles. So, while this is generalization people make, it does have some statistical teeth to it. Aside from which, ask any stay-at-home dad if he'd feel comfortable with a strange man approaching his children in any of those situations. I think not.

5)It’s completely okay, even applauded, when female writers, comediennes, singers, song writers and talk show hosts make sweeping generalizations about ALL men being stupid, sex driven, lazy assholes.
Uh. Like who? Seriously. 'Cause I'd like to see them go head-to-head with Rush Limbaugh. Are you thinking about Amy Poehler, Tina Fey, Ellen DeGeneres, Kathy Griffin, Ronda Sykes? 'Cause mostly they don't skewer guys. And when Ronda Sykes pointed out that Rush Limbaugh was a wee tad bit unpatriotic - boy did she get blowback.

6) What would you think of a man you heard say, “I am afraid of my wife?”
Huh. I've had male friends tell me they were sexually assaulted by a woman. And I said "That's terrible." And I thought "That's terrible."
The "what a wuss" line is like the "you were asking for it" line women get. It assumes that the victim is responsible for whatever happens to them. I lot of people don't understand the dynamics of abuse. But let's not turn that into evidence that we have a 'male-bashing' culture.

7) I must say, I don’t know a single man, NOT ONE, who thinks I am a lesser person because I have a vagina.
Huh. Does that come up much as a stay-at-home mom? Just asking. (Sorry, I had this vision of you wandering around a suburban parking lot doing your own version of the vagina monologues).
I'm not saying you don't get out much... but I find this to be a hugely unrealistic statement. I'm also not sure I know what you mean by 'lesser person'.

(I'll give you the no price on intimacy comment. Although, I'm not sure Eliot Spitzer's wife would agree that intimacy doesn't have a price, given that her husband was paid $80,000 to have unprotected anal sex with a hooker 10 times.)

8)Girl Power!” – “Girls Rock!” – “Boys Suck!” – and my personal favorite “Boys Are Great, Every Girl Should Own One!”
Well.
Girl Power! doesn't seem so bad, really. You can buy boy power T-shirts.
Boys Suck! - Well, the language is appalling. But most people remember saying 'boys stink!' and 'girls stink' in elementary school. As an aside, if you google 'boys suck' you get articles on this T-shirt. If you google 'girls suck' you get a whole other world. Which may be why is more acceptable to the general public.
'Own one' T-shirt is just despicable - but more for the racial overtones than anything gender-related.
Overall - it was an interesting post and I hope I've given you some food for thought as well.

@Cog8ive -- "(I'll give you the no price on intimacy comment. Although, I'm not sure Eliot Spitzer's wife would agree that intimacy doesn't have a price, given that her husband was paid $80,000 to have unprotected anal sex with a hooker 10 times.)"

You're right, I know lots of guys who would probably do it for half that price...

:)

after reading this i spent 5 hours writing/rewriting this "comment." at this point, i can only hope it makes sense to anyone beside myself... http://open.salon.com/blog/fooledforthought/2009/05/28/to_whom_it_may_concern_1

This is wondeful, thank you Open Salon and JK.

I've tried to convince my sister and others that those circulating strings of put-down jokes about men are not funny, just insulting, and depressing.

On the issue of pedophilia, I've just added a post to my blog here http://open.salon.com/blog/barrie_collins/2009/05/28/who_is_the_victim

Thank you again JK

Still didn't get a chance to read this. I bookmarked it for tonight. ;-)

Very good post, but there's a nonsense line in it:

"I must say, I don’t know a single man, NOT ONE, who thinks I am a lesser person because I have a vagina. "

Sorry, I call utter bullcrap on this. You're just not COUNTING them, is all.

Great article. I Tweeted about it this morning.

cogn8tive - If you don't like the message that sometimes things are rough for men and maybe we should raise our girls not to hate boys, by all means, there's the door.

When all else fails, pull the cord on the stay-at-home mother parachute. If you want to compare experiences, read the REST of my blog and see what I've done with my life. Then talk to me about how often the fact that I'm a woman comes up.

Ricky B - I would not tolerate a man in my life thinking that I deserved less (money, happiness, respect, power, decency, opportunity) than he does. They aren't there. I can't prove that to you, but I would judge from the term "bullcrap" that the fact offends you. Sorry about that. I do seem to be finding a few here, though.

logic11, I looked at the link you provided as 'evidence' there is no gender wage gap, but it took me to an article about how diabetes won't affect Sotomayor as a Supreme Court Justice. Is that what you meant to cite? There is nothing about the wage gap in the article. Would you mind checking for the desired article again?

All men are pigs. No exceptions.

Jodi: As a man who has been both a preschool teacher and stay at home dad, let me just say; THANK YOU!!!

Jodi, at this point I would guess that what I have to say here will be lost in the shuffle of the outstanding success of this little gem, none the less I have to reply to some of the things that were said to me by Agent for change.

First and foremost I will stand behind the assertation that abuse is wrong regardless of gender. To make a claim that it is different because of the numbers implies that some how it is justified. I never said or meant to imply that women abuse more men or that there was any level of parity between them.
The stonings the you note are not a condition of masculine oe femine. They are the result of religion. Of course they are wrong and should stop. The problem is that they are perpetuated by a religion that has shown itself to be completely unwilling to accept anything that it's holy book endorses.
One area that I have intimate knowledge of is the statistics on rape, sexual assault and DV. Those stats have been a big part of my life for the better part of thirty years. My wife is currently the ED at the Womens Center in Carbondale Il. She has been working in DV shelters and programs since she graduated. As her partner I too have volunteered in those programs along with the normal part that a spouse would play in her life. More than once we have discussed the fact that the DV system is set up to provide support only for women victims. The fact is that there is indeed a significant amount of both violence against men by partners both male and female and a disturbing amount of sexual assualt against men by other men.
My marriage isn't a part of this discussion. If you've read my blog you should also know that we are a committed couple who value the life we share. Are you implying that since we have been having problems that I am being less than objective in my opinions? Our problems are ours and not the source of anything I have to say here. I could be wrong (and if so Jodi correct me) but the point here is that we need to stop assigning traits to genders alone and start seeing each other as people.

@Aaron Rury
http://tinyurl.com/pvpf6a
Looks like this thing is cutting my link off and that is the problem. It is bringing you to the homepage of the site. I replaced it with a tinyurl link. That should work.
@pineapple_juice
I think the Michael Kaufman link is one of the more abhorrent things I have ever tried to read. I am a violent man, I participate in violence, and yes, I hit women... but only in the confines of a Taekwondo dojang, and most of the women in my sparring class are much higher belts than me, so a more accurate statement might be that I try to hit women, miss, and get hit. Michael Kaufman seems to be saying that it is the fault of every man (and the duty of every man to prevent) that some men are violent to their partners, and that our societal structures are inherently violent to women. He is as full of crap as the feminists who claim that all heterosexual sex is rape.
The key here is to give up sexism. To realize that women can be violent, or not, and that the same is true of men. That things can be unfair to me, and unfair to my fiance... and that this doesn't make either of us the default victim, just two people trying to make each of our worlds better.

Jodi -
I should probably have said " Does this come up much?" rather than adding 'as a stay-at-home mom'. I just added it because it's your job. The main thing I was reacting to was your specific phrasing, because I found it hard to envision you having conversations with lots of men about you as a person with a vagina. It just made me giggle. I didn't mean to be inflammatory. Beyond that, I tried to give you an honest and fair reaction. I certainly hope I didn't give the impression that I think things aren't rough all over. I do. I just think maybe you don't have to worry quite so much about your son. The same way things have gotten better for women - I think they've also gotten better for men. For example, the Father's Rights movement has made a lot of changes. There are a lot of men who've become excellent primary caregivers who are changing our perceptions of masculinity - and caregiving. Men have more choices than ever and that's a good thing.

Jodi, I wanted to comment yesterday, but was overwhelmed with work and then class. At this point, don't think there is much I can add that hasn't already been said, so all I will write is that I think this is a tremendous post and deserves all of the attention it's getting. Brava!

People like "changagent" are the reason so many Feminists have started refering to themselves as "Gender Equitists".

Most men aren't rapists : Most rapists are repeat offenders.

You can't extrapolate from the number of women raped the number of male rapists.

In addition, women frequently commit rape - it tends to be non-violent, and is almost never reported. I know many men who have been sexually assaulted by women they had no desire to engage in sexual activity with while passed out or otherwise seriously impared.

Lastly, the gender bias of our criminal justice system is only exceeded by its racism. The reason that our prisons are full of men is that men are more likely to be convicted, and are given longer sentences, for the same property and drug crimes.

Niether misandry nor misogony is a productive solution too....anything.

I am an American male but teach English and music at a large private preschool/kindergarten in Tokyo, Japan. The system is different here and has three grades teaching kids ages 3-6 before the roughly US equivalent elementary system.
Over here there is no inherent fear of male pedophilia and no fear of frivolous/baseless legal action, though teaching is still generally regarded as the woman's sector (and Japan is still a lot more chauvinistic in general than the US, where women get more like 66 cents to the dollar!).
Young children are adorable and teaching them is a relatively pure and guilt-free profession. I know my job isn't oppressing anyone directly or indirectly, which is more than your average Starbucks cashier or Ad Exec can say.
Sadly, I would never do it in the States, even if you paid me double the going rate.
I guess I'm focusing on a small part of the article/forum response but the whole concept that men who want to work with children should be met with suspicion is rather self-defeatist for anyone who claims to be forward thinking.
If women are encouraged to abandon such "traditional" female jobs such as teaching, eschewing them for high-powered/high-earning careers who is left to teach? Shouldn't it be equally encouraged that men work in education without fear?
If everyone who is smart/talented enough to make a bigger buck is pushed to do so, then it stands to reason that our children will lose out in the long run.
This is already a reality in the American education.
It's hard enough to convince men to become teachers based upon salary. etc. without the added social stigma of assumed pedophile tendencies.
My girlfriend is in PR at a successful company, works 60 plus hours a week, and often feels overworked and stressed.
I work about 36 hours a week singing, dancing, and teaching in a fairly stress-free environment.
I've met people who perceive this as a gender role reversal which has an undercurrent of pity towards me.
I disagree with such sentiment.

I was slightly confused at the end considering that you were for the equality of men... but then you switched it to be equality for all, regardless of gender/sex.

in response to some of your examples, it's only fair to say that, i think, there are more accounts of men messin' up their rep to allow women, feminists, and alike to say that men are repulsive or deadbeats etc. But at the same time, you can only speak for those accounts and not completely generalize it to all men. This can also apply to women, in a sense.

Ultimately, I blame society for embedding such mentality into our culture to the point where it may never be able to balance out or even reverse.

I agree however on some cases. Because although I'm male, and gay, I'm expected to play certain roles which I do not prefer to play, which in turn, may put me under the male category. And when I don't play those roles, I end up being the social deviant. And altogether, that's not fair cuz then it's a lose lose situation (or at least nowadays).

period kthnxbai

I might be repeating some point someone else has made, but I can't possibly read through all of these comments.

This was refreshing and so well written. Your examples really hit home. I'm lucky enough to be in a good marriage, but I've seen friends of mine be completely ignored by the courts.

My wife used to get annoyed at my constantly pointing out the stereotypes of men on TV and in movies. Watch any sitcom and I'll bet I know who the dumbest person on the show is. Dad is usually so incompetent that even the children are two steps ahead of him. Mom and them fix all the problems dad causes, and out of pity they often allow him to believe he's fixed it. And regardless the dilemma on the show, he must admit he's wrong in the end.

People often forgot that in society, as men pidgeonholed women into a role, they became equally pidgeonholed.

You're right, BTW, about the 76 cents to the dollar for women, and there are plenty of other areas where we need a lot of work. But I appreciate your balance and your point that, at some point, we're all going to need to go forward together, despite different sexes, religions, ethnicities, races, ages, etc.

Good post. The divorce/custody part got to me. While I am not personally effected by it, my nephew and next-door neighbor, also a male, are.

Thanks for reminding all of women of our flaws!!!

ATTENTION!!
ATTENTION!!
There is now a contract out on J Kasten.
It is for being a traitor and for exposing truths which we do NOT want known.
Signed,

T Clark-Flory
Professional hysterical feminazi/Daddy hater.



BTW-We men hold these truths to be self evident.
It is also why I am happy to say that I am elated to be a born again single man and have no idea if I've caused any kids.

Excellent article, Jody. ^^^^^^5's!!

Wow what a great... blog? essay? Commentary? (Sorry I don't do a lot of commenting but have been a salon subscriber for years lol...)

As a man -- and one who was a little boy in the 60s with way progressive parents who bucked the conformity of the day -- I know this well. I literally grew up not even knowing until later that women and men were NOT absolute equals, and when I found out (@10 years old) my first thought was, wow, how stupid is that?

That said, here's how deep it goes -- if this entire essay/blog/etc. had been penned by a "John" instead of "Jody" -- how many readers here would have thought.... hmmmmm?

Restrictive cultural blinders are pernicious things, and very, very equal opportunity.

In 2009, many of the "old" rules have been nuked -- good, they needed to go, or at least change. Many more still need to go or change. But a comparable set of "rules" ... or guidelines?... have not yet sprung up to take their place -- comparable in that they are so encoded into us that they don't require all that much cogent thought to implement, or adhere to. They're not yet 2nd nature to society as a whole.

In their transient absence, we have... what? A lot of narcicisstic convenience-driven opt-out excuses?

This whole society runs on the desires, urges, whims and impulses of people -- men and women -- who have a list of entitlements a mile long but a proportionately far shorter list of "gives" to the "gets". Reciprocity is viewed is a weakness in a zero sum game. Losers "give"; winners "get". Western culture is about getting, winning, acquiring, having.... more. Fairness as a concept is defined as more of what I want, none of what I don't want. Fairness as a concept is archaic and for the weak?

Weird culture. But still, it's trying. And we define it day by day, for ourselves and our kids, who will take on the burden and the gift of it after we're gone. Hopefully we pay it back and pay it forward, and pay it now, which is all we really have -- today, and a dream. Lucky enough to wake up tomorrow? Here's the prize: today, and a dream. Rinse and repeat lol.

For me -- I've been the majority breadwinner AND the majority domestic partner AND the majority parent (step-parent, actually), all at that same time. All good, even factoring in the not so great. Love is calculated risk. So if life. For me as a man, and a human, a successful relationship is not 50+50= 100%, it's 100X100=10,000%.

And here's what's really trippy -- I know I'm not the only man who thinks this way, by far. Most of them just don't say it. Maybe cuz it's not their nature. Possibly cuz they've never been inspired, trained, schooled, or encouraged, to articulate it.

Maybe we need new words to define us. And new thoughts to fuel the words. And new actions to fire up the thoughts and make them real.

Fortunately for us, those are not the hardest things to "acquire"...?

OK, I said that I didn't have anything to add, but I do. Sorry. ou pointed this out in your post, but I think that its worth repeating, it's not only the inequity in pay scale, being born male still confers certain privileges, privileges that are hard to see sometimes because they are assumed. I say that as a white woman who sometimes has to work hard to recognize the privileges that my melanin-deficient skin confers on me.

At the same time, I want to strongly acknowledge the inequities in family law that favors female over male parents, female teachers over male teachers. Also, as a sexuality educator, I definitely decry the male bashing that is embedded in much liberal sex education. My own take is that, in a twisted way, such inequities grow out of patriarchal constructs that view women as victims that are also inherently better suited to care taking than men. Men are as wounded by a patriarchal system that demands they always be in control and that looks with suspicion upon any man that openly embraces that part of him that traditional Western society would classify as feminine.

I know a man who was married to a truly, deeply vile woman. The kind of person I've known so many of that I snort at the idea of humans even remotely being sacred. I'll leave it at that. If I told you more about her, you would agree with me. There is no question in my mind about that but I would get carried away if I said more.

Their congressional representative is Michelle Bachman by way of describing how very conservative their governing local institutions are.

When the man knew he had to get out and began consulting lawyers, every single one without exception told him that no man had ever won custody in their county. He had always been the primary caregiver, she was verbally and psychologically abusive and that didn't matter. He went outside the jurisdiction and hired an urban criminal lawyer who took only occasional divorce cases and only representing men.

He won.

I just wanted to report that here because it was a classic case of the potential for perceptions rather than reality to govern events. If the man had thrown up his hands and accepted that he had no choice but to relinquish custody to the woman because all the lawyers agreed, because there was no hope, he would have joined the statistics. He didn't accept inevitable victimhood.

Advertising today is one of the worst offenders when it comes to equality (Pepsi for men? Seriously?). When it comes to people being jerks, there is no gender specific rule. It would be nice if everyone treated each other as a human beings, but I see both sexes taking advantage of stereotypes and using them to perpetuate the problems. My neighbor initiated his divorce by accusing his wife of having post-partum depression, and as a result, being suicidal and wanting to kill their baby. I seriously doubt any woman could do the reverse. I have another neighbor whose wife accused him of molesting their daughter so that she could have complete custody. Both of these accusers are lying.

FTR, I have this exact post partially written--some of it in notes and articles written over 20 years of being a boys' mom. Down to those exact t-shirts you mention. I've written and commented much on this subject and am glad to see someone else say it. You do it so well.

"cogn8tive - If you don't like the message that sometimes things are rough for men and maybe we should raise our girls not to hate boys, by all means, there's the door.

When all else fails, pull the cord on the stay-at-home mother parachute. If you want to compare experiences, read the REST of my blog and see what I've done with my life. Then talk to me about how often the fact that I'm a woman comes up."

Wow. Really? That's your reply to her? She makes some very valid points and your answer is to show her the door? Talk about buying into your own short-lived hype.

I know the overwhelming response here is "Good for you!", but I also found your post to be shallow. You make some good points, but in that Fox News way in which you make a few generalizations and get pissed off when someone dares to question your assertions.

Yes, those things happen. And? You're actually equating women not earning equal pay with an overgrown lawn and wondering why maybe some women *might* have a small problem with that?

I have a young son and I'm raising him that people are people no matter color, sexual preference, religion or sex. More importantly, I'm trying my best to keep him from being one of the "poor boys, poor me" whiners that are the bread and butter of your commenters. I sincerely hope I succeed.

While I agree with much of what you said - and certainly agree with the spirit in which you said it, my adult life has been spent working in male-dominated areas. Reverse-sexism means about as much to me as reverse-racism. One doesn't hold a candle to the other. As a matter of opinion, I would say that the latter wouldn't exist if not for the reality of the former. This is not to say that either is fair but comparing one to the other......? Tell that to the blond who insists her experiences with racism are the equivalent of what a black person has gone through.

Ever get called a "stupid cunt", "hormonal bitch" or been physically threatened on the job by a member of the opposite sex who thought you were weak? Ever gone to a boss who told you to "shut up and take it like a lady?" Welcome to my world. Men, when was the last time you had to justify having a certain job because a woman needed that job more than you? The reverse has happened to me, as has being told by my boss at my last job, that they tend to hire more women as reps because "men couldn't live on what they pay." Men were only hired there for management positions, regardless of experience. Women, such as myself, worked 6-7 days a week for no over-time and no room for advancement. A point of contention with them was that I was able to make a better wage than other reps, including the ones who were men and rivaled what my managers made. Still, try and take that feather in my cap to another place which does what I did? Sorry, it's still considered an exclusive boys club. With a dozen other companies and more than a dozen other reps, in different cities, I've only seen one other female who does what I did and she is also being threatened with her job. The old saying that a woman has to work twice as hard as a man in order to get half the respect doesn't fly with me. I would have loved to have only worked twice as hard.

When Andrew Dice Clay was famous, women rightfully called him on his blatant sexist attitudes. When Bill Maher likens breast-feeding to masturbation and states that women have replaced logic with emotion or makes some other statement regarding how women are too emotional for office..... well, he's a liberal and we look the other way. When my ex-husband chose not to try and get full-time custody with his daughter from a previous marriage because he was afraid of it negatively impacting his earnings, he was considered making the mature choice - in spite of the fact he had a flexible, government job and worked fewer hours than either I or his ex-wife. If he spent 5 minutes reading to his daughter before bedtime, he was praised for being a good father. Imagine a woman who "only" spent a few minutes at bedtime interacting with her kids? Men who spend any time with their children are applauded. Women who don't spend every minute with their children are crucified. And yes, I have seen men who were only slightly better than Homer Simpson get full-custody of their kids because their ex-wives were only slightly worse than Marge Simpson. There are some ugly double-standards.

I would hope in my lifetime that feminism would break these gender roles and stereotypes. I would hope that men would feel empowered enough to engage in work and care normally reserved for women and that when enough women enter a line of work that the pay rate for that job wouldn't suddenly drop (think the field of psychology, for example). I would hope that the next time a girl complains to her mother about how her brother has been trying to rip of her clothes and touch her, she wouldn't hear "boys will be boys. Just try and stay out of his way" (scenes from my childhood). I would hope that the next generation of women won't live in a world where 1 in 3 can expect to be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes - where a woman can go out for a nice dinner and not get her face slapped while her date tries to rip off her clothes because "she owes him" (scenes from my dating life). The words "cock tease" should be erased from the English language. Men have the right to be sexual creatures whereas we do so with the constant threat of assault and the knowledge that appearing sexual to one means that others feel they have the same rights with you. I hope a new world would emerge and break the stereotype that girls need to be passive and boys need to be aggressive. I have absolutely no doubt that when the culture of feminism takes hold, both sexes will feel liberated by it. Until then.... "standing on the backs of men"? Puhleeze. As a white woman, I couldn't go to a black family who lost a member to a lynching and say I feel their pain, even if I experienced a bit of unpleasantness by a member of their race. Reverse-sexism is in that same light, only it seems we look for reasons to justify that bad behavior.

Wonderful! Just wonderful! I was scared to death of my second wife who beat me up twice and I am not a small man. I have a daughter and everything in this piece reminded me of the struggles that she faces every day from being a woman and being a lesbian.
Thank you for this.
hippy mike

I was simply telling the commenter that it wasn't my place to change their mind. They have an option, they can click away if they don't think I'm worth the time. I think that's fair and applicable to anyone who doesn't think this view has merit.

You think I equated women's pay disparity with lawns? Really? That's great for shock value but way off the spirit of the post. I am not here to attack women. I'm here to say that not all men are sexist dogs.

The very suggestion of being nice to people until we have reason not to be is laughed at in our society. I want my children to love people and see cynicism for what it is. It's what comes out of people's mouths when they don't know what to do to make their own life better.

I believe in women. I believe we can sit down at the collective table with men and forge a life together. If that's met with violent opposition and accusations of my being an anti-feminist, then I would hope you have a better plan for improving the world.

What I'm hearing here is that the gender war is far from over. I agree. There's still a whole ton of shooting going on. I find that sad. Women's power doesn't have to come from the shaming of the entire male sex. That's the cheap way out.

So many people equate personal experiences with the entire gender. Then they allow it to color every aspect of their respective lives and their public opinions. There isn't a revenge component in equality. There can't be equal rights for anyone if we insist that revenge for the actions of some are applied to all people of either gender. What we need is a system that is expressly forbidden to take gender, race, or religion into account when faced with decisions. That the workplace must treat all the same in rules and in pay. Good people walk the earth in all bodies. So do bad ones.

I’m late to this beach party, but I have to throw one more grain of sand into the ocean of comments – to thank you for such a wonderful essay. It and your comments come through as an effort to transcend some very deep gender conflict issues. And you did it in such a lovely way; it’s hard not to get choked-up while reading.

I can't help but wonder, what if this piece were written by a man?
Well done!!!

While I think some of your points are good, I think there are some areas in which you are lacking.
You fail to recognize that there has been a far longer history of female oppression, rather than dominance.
You are upset by female writers/comedians etc making generalizations when most of your examples are just that... For example, I know a number of females who have wound up living with their fathers, rather than their mothers simply because he was the more fit parent. If there is a case of total equality between the two parents, the same sex parent, in my encounters, has usually been the one to take custody... you also have to consider elements such as behaviour in the court etc.... there are too many factors in many of your examples, which turns them into the sweeping generalizations that, as previously stated, you claim to be against. But with the custody cases, as this is not a statistics based arguments, perhaps these just boil down to personal encounters.
I also don't think you can fully equate giving up sex for diamonds (have you honestly met a woman who has done this? I know I haven't) to not having sex because someone didn't take out the garbage... you are entirely gendering your example based on this assumption. Personally, I take out the garbage.
Re: the physical abuse of men... this is a problem, yes, and it is extremely underreported. However, staying within your example, it is not necessarily that the abuse of men is totally unknown, domestic abuse in general is one of the most underreported crimes... statistics are simply based on those who actually come forth.

Again, I do see some validity in some of your points, however I think there are some large problems that you did not consider. I think what you fail to recognize is this, there are differences between men and women. Our DNA is different, we are physically constructed differently etc. It isn't until we are able to recognize these differences in a positive way that we will be able to achieve equality. Afterall, men and woman are inherently different. The problem is how to work within these differences to avoid them becoming problematic.

It's difficult for men and women to sit down at a table and collectively work things out when there is still such an imbalance of power in male hands. There has to be some acknowledgment that this imbalance exists before gender equality can truly move forward.

I think you weakened your case by providing examples like the lawn that offended women who have dealt with, and are still dealing with, rampant sexism and discrimination in the workplace and elsewhere. You also did not discuss the comments of posters who provided facts and figures that disagreed with your statements about divorce and child custody.

I believe that you do not hate women. But by saying that women are "standing on the backs of men" when that is not borne out by the facts or indeed, most women's lives, you have essentially revisited the tired trope that women are solely responsible for making the world a better place. That certainly doesn't do men any favours either.

You say that we should be judged as individuals, not by gender, but you did not actually write your post that way. Instead, you picked specific instances of obvious injustice, and focused on them as the reasons why women are apparently preventing men from being equals. The real issue is not that there are T-shirts that say "Boys Suck." The real issue is: why do some people feel the need to say that at all?

Another point I forgot.... you claim that women can get away with talking about the male coworker as being hot, but men cannot... what about the men who can get away with sleeping around only to be met with a parade of high fives, whereas women who even dress the wrong way or give off the wrong vibe are labelled sluts, even by other women, regardless whether or not that fact is true.

Try as I might, I can't figure out how to address every single aspect of gender issues in one post. Pointing out what I didn't cover is (seriously) appreciated because there are 6 million years of human history I couldn't manage to squeeze in. I hope you'll all forgive me for not mentioning a few things. I did try to honor and recognize those things at the very beginning, but that seems to be getting lost.

I see my husband, father, brothers and sons silenced. They are afraid to speak. Evidently, there are a few men here that feel the same way. I'm a woman and I can't even say these things without being ridiculed. How would it sound coming from them?

Is it really accurate to say that the men actually in your life are the perpetrators of inequality against women? Must they ALL pay the price for it? Or could we begin to work *with* men now for a better future together?

I believe that love is never wrong.
I believe that forgiveness and partnership are never wrong.
I believe that marginalizing someone for their gender is always wrong.

I am disappointed that pointing out that gender inequality goes both ways is equal to anti-feminism for some people. That certainly is not how I feel.

Great post, Jodi.
On the odd occasion I read OS, I have been apalled at the level of hostility, sexism, and outright hatred expressed towards men, especially in the comments section. Your points are cogent, fair, and balanced. I am pleasantly surprised at the agreement expressed in the comments section, also: though a couple flaming wack jobs are spewing hatred, most seem to be reasonable and fair.
I wish I could say the same about Salon itself. I enjoy most of the articles and respect most of the writers. But Broadsheet is filled with distortions, hatred, lies, and the worst of victim feminism. Spend more time reading Slate, I get good writing and powerful analysis without being condemend for having an innie rather than an outie.

One comment to the foaming manhater who slandered all men by asking where about men fighting against violence against women.

Damn near every male cop. Soldier. Sailor. Brothers. Fathers. Friends. Every single man I know.
I spent fifteen years of my life putting my ass on the line directly protecting women, running security at a hospital.
What makes this sad, sick woman so damned special that violence against her is any more condemnable than violence against me?
I'm against violence against people.
Another comment on her hatred: my mother, grandmother, and a teacher molested me. All women. Want to explain again how all perverts are men?

I agree with your points. I also happen to think that the world needs fewer men who are total assholes. I'm a freak - I cook, I'm polite, I debate instead of shout and I worry about how I impact other people (translation: I try not to be selfish). We need more equality in all sorts of areas that too many people don't think enough about.

Jodi, it's not about what you were trying to say. It's how you said it. You made some sweeping generalizations which rubbed salt on the open wounds of many women who dared have experiences which are different from your own and who dare to acknowledge that reverse-sexism does not hold a candle to the thousands of years of extreme-sexism which has dominated our history and our culture. It's also how you have responded to so many of the posters here yet have let some extraordinarily sexist comments slide on by. Pointing out sexism is not a sexist act.

Whether or not you meant to, when you sow the wind, you must sometimes reap the whirlwind.

Personally, I think it would be disrespectful to the hard work of the feminists that worked so hard to get women to this point to say that the world hasn't changed "enough" to begin at least a *discussion* about fairness on all sides.

My mother and grandmother raised men to respect women. There are millions of women who fought that hard fight and still are today. I honor that and respect it too much to throw those good men, HARD won by their female (and male!) predecessors, in the same pile with rapists, abusers and womanizers.

If we want to honor our female predecessors, maybe we should do it by seeing that they succeeded in many ways and continuing on in the most peaceful way possible.

Saying that peace is wrong because the shooting is still going on then trying to solve it by shooting some more doesn't sound like a great plan to me.

I have no delusions about how badly this upsets people. But, everyone has the right to their own opinion - even me.

I want to approach a number of comments about how all men want to rape women, if they have the chance. I am not going to argue that because I do not know all men, but know I am not one of them.

With that said, I had a teacher in high school. He was, if I recall correctly, my biology teacher, though it's been over 10 years since I went to high school so my memory is fuzzy. Anyway, he died in my junior year from AIDs. He got it from being raped by a woman in the alley.

Jodi, thank you. This is a great article, and echoes a lot of what I have been saying. It even echoes, to a small extent what I believe about 'equal rights'. Women want equal rights when it benefits them, but if it doesn't they become sad little wilted flowers (IE in divorce cases).

I was raised to be a man, and may be the last generation that was raised in such a way. Sad world now that boys are not taught to be men.

I'm male, so readers continue at your own risk. The entire disagreement among posters to this blog seems to b0il down to whether or not generalizations are a good thing. They are only as good as one wishes to make them. Broadstroking all Republicans or all Democrats is silly. So, too, is doing the same with a majority of men or a majority of women.

As several have pointed out, men and women are wired differently, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't all be equal. Obviously, depending on any given situation, we are not. Men, and women, should have a calling to ensure future generations don't fall into the same patterns of intolerance or bias regardless gender or color or sexual orientation.

Each side of Jodi's argument has some legit points, but that's the whole point of said argument. I believe it rings loudly and clearly in her original blog. Don't shoot the messenger just because one can think of numerous instances--or a history of imbalance--that perpetuates what one believes. I could enumerate many instances where what Jodi uses for examples are true in my life. Conversely, every one who has posted on this blog could do the same based upon her or his own situation. The point is, each of us can learn from the other.

I did find it chuckle-worthy that at the same time a few commenters were noting Jodi used specific examples that didn't cover all permutations (an impossible task anyway), they themselves tended to use. . .specific examples that didn't cover all permutations when countering her discussion.

There is no cure all for the ills of sexism (or racism, homophobism, et.al.isms), but honest debate is a good start. The majority of the comments posted on this particular blog contribute to that cause--formulating legitimate points and counterpoints enables us to learn, if we are so attuned. Fomenting argument merely for the sake of hearing one's own voice does nothing but continue to drive arrows into festering wounds.

Jodi, you've raised the bar for all of us OS bloggers with this post. It's gratifying to see a long piece, by Internet standards anyhow, find such a substantial audience. Loved the writing as well. No bad puns, jokes or unnecessary pop culture references. Just good old-fashioned straight-up writing.

I can't believe what I am reading; a feminist who has the guts to call it like it is. As a man, I (and others) have put up with man-bashing for years. Everything from the "2 men and a baby" crap - to the numerous smacks and jabs on tv and in movies. If on TV, a man treated a woman like woman treat men (hitting a "love taps", we'd hear nothing but the horrors of abuse. I "a man" learned to do laundry at 9; in a home of 9 kids, I changed diapers at 15; I'm sure many other did the same when growing up in large families in the 60s and 70s. All this "beat on men" sh*t has made me (and other men) hateful towards women. To see this writer say what is "true" is just beynd belief. Lady, THANK YOU!!! I wish I could give you a hug; you actually "get it".

I'm proud to have been the 100th rater of this truthful post. Thanks, Jodi for allowing us to digest this wonderful food for thought!

I don't need equal rights, treat me a sex object all you want.

I can absolutely see why people have gone so batshit crazy over this post (in a good way). Truth is, I don't know if I would want to be a straight man in today's society - talk about social restraints! I suppose it's some sort of karmic backlash for years of horrendous male behavior, but that doesn't necessarily make things better for those who are paying for the sins of their fathers. Let the healing begin.

Respect Jodi. My uttermost respect.

As a straight male feminist, pro-GLBT (since WAY before it was cool), anti-racist activist, I really appreciated your take on the issue of how society really discriminates against men--not the knee-jerk, reactionary, typical anti-feminist reverse-discrimination argument so common in our society. Unfortunately, so much of the work of genuine equality between the sexes remains to be accomplished. What seems to pass in America (and the rest of the patriarchal world, naturally) for gender equity is simply the type of reverse gender-biased sniping you so ably deconstructed. This type of behavior merely reinforces gender stereotyping on both sides of the argument.

I'm a middle-aged father of two nearly grown daughters, and I was very active in raising them; apart from birth (I was a great Lamaze coach) and breastfeeding, there is nothing their mother did that I didn't do. So every now and then I find myself wistfully admiring the adorable little moppets in the mall and remembering that stage of parenting. To be fair, most moms get it; but I have also gotten the stink-eye on more than one occasion.

I'm also a high school teacher, and I never initiate hugs with any student. The occasional shoulder-pat suffices for both males and females. I live in fear that a female student who may simply not like me could lodge a false complaint against me for any reason or no reason at all; Several years ago, a female student boasted to a friend (loudly enough for me to realize her comment was for my ears) that all she had to do was tell someone that a male teacher (she didn't specify who) touched her, and get her friends to make a similar complaint, and she could ruin his life. My response was to report the comment in writing to my female assistant principal.

Yes, men face real danger, and even some discrimination; but let's keep it in context and recognize it as patriarchal backlash. We can't let it distract us from striving for real equality for everyone.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but it was nice to vent.

Jodi, let me just say one more time that I am so glad I married a woman who thinks like you do, and not a self-described man-hating "feminist" who sees the world as a battleground between the genders. The more comments I read by the "feminists", the happier I am that I found a sane, rational, non-bitter woman to share life with.

@RickyB -

You wrote:
"I must say, I don’t know a single man, NOT ONE, who thinks I am a lesser person because I have a vagina. "

Sorry, I call utter bullcrap on this. You're just not COUNTING them, is all."

Who the Hell are you women hanging out with? I don't consider any woman a "lesser being" because they have a vagina. I really like vaginas, but they just happen to be one part of the overall woman. And women are always humans. Since I like humans, I tend to like women by default.

We're not a different species, people. Try to remember that.

What kind of man treats women differently because of their genitals? I'm glad I don't know any of these men. I must just run in better circles than ya'll do. You know, more cultured, classy, educated people. People who who don't hate you based on what you have between your legs.

You know. Decent human beings. Look for them, I promise, they're out there. Men and women both.

@Marc Abian -

You wrote:
"In addition, women frequently commit rape - it tends to be non-violent, and is almost never reported. I know many men who have been sexually assaulted by women they had no desire to engage in sexual activity with while passed out or otherwise seriously impared."

Bingo.

So this one night, I got a girl very drunk. I knew she didn't want to have sex with me, but I wanted her, and I figured the best chance I had was to feed her as much alcohol as I could and then pressure her for sex over and over again until she gave in.

She was a friend of many years, she wasn't really attracted to me, but I wanted to get laid and I wanted her. So I kept pressuring her, all night, kept the booze flowing, and eventually I got her alone in a private room.

She said she didn't want to have sex with me, multiple times, but I kept pawing at her, giggling, saying, "Come on, baby, I'm horny. Just give me a quick fuck."

Eventually she rolled her eyes at me and got up, saying, "Look, I don't want to have sex with you, it's not going to happen."

I signed and eventually stomped out of the room to pass out drunk.

...

((True story. Except, reverse the rolls. I was the "girl" in the story and she was the "guy" - this happened to me about a year ago. A girl wanted to fuck me so she got me very drunk and tried to get me to screw her even though I repeated several times during the night that it wasn't going to happen and I wasn't interested.

I posted this from the perspective of the woman being pressured by the man because it seems that in our society, a woman can do things that would get a man labeled "sex offender", "rapist", or "obnoxious" - but if a woman does it, it's "cute"...

In reality, pressuring somebody to have sex, even if you're a woman and it's a man - isn't cute. It's not funny. It's only accepted because men are always supposed to want to fuck everything, all the time.

And the truth of the matter is that, ladies, most of us are quite a lot more choosy than that. I'm a highly sexual person, but that doesn't mean I want to sleep with any woman willing to spread her legs for me.

Far from it.

And if I did to that woman what she did to me, it would have been considered attempted date rape by most feminists.

Since it was a woman doing it to a man, most feminists will simply chuckle at the story and chalk it up to the patriarchy getting what it deserves.

Women "rape" men all the time by the feminist definition - getting someone too drunk to properly say no and then taking advantage of the situation. I've seen it happen with woman and men in my own house.

In fact, I have NEVER seen a more entitled, spoiled-brat behavior in my life than when an attractive woman wants to sleep with a man and the man turns her down. You can tell that they aren't used to being turned down, because when it happens, it's almost like their world just implodes. The look on the face of a pretty girl that a man says "no" to... it's... it's just priceless.

@RenaissanceLady -
You wrote:
"Ever get called a "stupid cunt", "hormonal bitch" or been physically threatened on the job by a member of the opposite sex who thought you were weak? Ever gone to a boss who told you to "shut up and take it like a lady?" Welcome to my world. Men, when was the last time you had to justify having a certain job because a woman needed that job more than you? The reverse has happened to me, as has being told by my boss at my last job, that they tend to hire more women as reps because "men couldn't live on what they pay.""

Are you still living in the 1920's?

Because now, there is an organization called the EEOC that would be very interested to hear your stories of abuse.

I was a manager at a Fortune 500 company for many years and I can tell you that the business world is NOT like this now.

If any man spoke to a woman like that and it was brought up to human resources and/or the EEOC, he would be fired so fast his head would spin.

Sorry, I just don't buy that this actually happened. You could have legally sued them all very effectively if it did.

I've worked too long in corporate America to believe that women are held back at all anymore. Every advantage is given to women in the business world. And they have many, many legal remedies to seek if they are discriminated against because of their gender.

I call shenanigans on this.

I haven't read all those comments, but incandescent, the thing you're missing in the story is called in biological circles "sexual dimorphism." In some species, males are much larger than females. Of course, in our species, this can be true, or not, depending on the couple. When one person is bigger/stronger than the other and acting in the way that you describe, the story changes. When you visualize the story you depicted, knowing nothing about the couple, the tendency is the see the man as larger than the woman, and the danger is palpable. When you change the sexes, the story in your imagination changes from scary and hair raising to insanely ick and pathetic, it's true. But if the woman was larger than you and tended toward violence, believe me, I'd feel the fear.

And I don't think anyone would ever think that behavior was "cute."

OMFG, incandescent. Just where have you spent your time in the business world to think that women aren't held back anymore? It's nice that you've never seen evidence of it, but I must assure you that it's there. As a computer programmer--a traditionally male-dominated profession--I eat a spoonful of crap about half the time I have to deal with another programmer for the first time. I guarantee to you that is has nothing to do with my title, which is Senior Developer. It has everything to do with my girly first name.

I must warn you that although I came up here and maybe stirred up a hornet's nest, I don't know when I'll have time to come back. You could always send me a note though.

@angrymom -

I've been a manager and a ground-level SQL database programmer, and I've worked with men and women pretty equally. I've worked only for large, Fortune 500 companies in my life; I've never worked for a "mom and pop" outfit.

So my experiences are colored by large corporations with large human resources departments. And I've been to the EEOC on BOTH sides of the table - employer and employee - in my lifetime.

If you're honestly being treated differently because you are female, you have legal recourse you can take. File a complaint with your company's HR department and the EEOC - I can assure you, it's not a normal business practice to belittle and demean women, even in "technical fields".

As for "sexual dimorphism" - give me a break. Violence was never mentioned in my story because it never occurred- we were two friends; I just didn't want to fuck her. For the record, she had about 50lbs on me, and was a "big girl" - that was one of the reasons I wasn't too interested in her. I'm a small, slender guy and I prefer small, slender women. (I weigh all of 150lbs and I'm about 5'9" tall. About half the women I meet are larger than I am.)

Why would the size matter in that story? No physical force was being used at all. It was all alcohol and manipulative coercion - tools that women can use as well as if not better than men. Most "date rape" stories that are told NEVER involve physical violence. Just a man "getting" a woman drunk.

So why not the outrage over a woman "getting" a man drunk and trying to take advantage of him?

How right you are! "What message does it send to men about what sort of fathers they should be when it's made clear by the courts and their ex-wives that their most important contribution as fathers is a timely child support payment?" Unfortunately, there are too many great fathers who have lost touch with their children because of it. And, too many who learned at America's knee - and buy this bit, still. As a person who has absolutely no relationship with her Greatest Generation father, I know it was the way life was supposed to be, way back in the not-so-perfect world of June and Ward. But it is a hard row for men to hoe, now, to get over the residuals.

I agree with Dorinda Fox: You are a feminist, and also fair and just. If all of us saw the Big Question of Man and Woman so clearly, there would be no problem with equality on either side of the gender divide.

pretty phenomenal response on this post jodi, congratulations. amazing. talk about going viral.
men die in wars more, men die younger, men are being hit harder with job losses in this recession. I dont see any feminists complaining that they are not getting laid off in the recession as fast as men. ah, but that is human nature. your neighbors grass is both greener in some places but less green in others, but we want/envy only the greener parts.

click on my blog for a few musings on M/F dichotomy from the pt of view of evolutionary psychology

This was excellent in every way. I'm with you all the way on this one.

maybe it is time for a new movement, post feminism. I dont know of a good word, but I propose "coequality". our branches of government--legislative, judicial, executive-- are coequal. not "equal", because they have different functions, but "coequal". lets try to create a gender-positive movement that avoids denigrating the opposite sex in favor of advancement. in short, we can all get ahead without tearing each other down. amen sister!!

No one has to stand on the backs of men to get ahead. I have found that standing on my own convictions and work ethics have done well for me.

Jodi,
I've just read your blog and every last one of the comments to date.
I am a writer, editor and publisher. I mention this so that you will know that I do indeed "know how to read".
In your blog your central point came through loud and clear. In the comments it kept getting lost over and over again.

I acept that in making your point you used some generalizations that could, if it mattered, be torn to shreds. It didn't matter. Your point remained intact.

Now I would like to make a point that is merely semantic.

That I would take the time and trouble to make a semantic point after stating that apparently greater concerns didn't detract from your central point will give you an idea that I consider this 'semantic' point to be of more than passing importance.

The problem arises with the term "equal". It seems to me that this word has about as many meanings as there are people who use it. Oh, maybe not large differences, but differences of nuance and useage and application nonetheless.

First, let me say that there is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be any such thing as 'equality' between men and women.

Nor will there ever be any such thing as equality between ANY two human beings. We are not equal. Period.

Much of the confusion about your point, the points made by those who agree with you, and the points made by those who do not agree with you, could be lessened or avoided altogether it the term "equally human" were used in place of "equal".

If those who made comments here were each to re-write that comment(s) using that term, it quickly becomes clear who is 'off track' and who is not.

Your point, that "gender sniping" by each gender is counterproductive in recognizing a state of all people being equally human, is preserved. Those who would use the word "equal" to push our hot-buttons cannot so easily do so with the term 'equally human'.

This is but a very small point, I think. Yet one cannot forget the old, "for want of a nail....", adage.

I congratulate you on your wisdom and courage in posting this blog. You, and others, have rightly reognized that it could not have been written or posted by a man.

It is to be devoutly hoped that the world you envision will be such that the gender of someone who says something that needs saying will be of no consequence, as should be the case.

I burst with pride that I belong to the same 'human race' as you. You have done us all proud today!

good post and I totally agree.

I have come to see a link between the rise of women, their increasing rights, involvement in politics, and the feminist movement and the increasing stupidity, perversion of culture, and all around degeneracy in the west. These irrational, pseudo-sentient life forms have done naught but sap the life out of intellectual and powerful men over the last hundred years or so, and we men have made the mistake of brainwashing ourselves to believe that these succubi are actual people. Their whole kind are nothing more than tools for procreation, unfit to live without a patron's approval.

Allow me to make my case.

Women are naturally cowards. I myself have met women who have admitted to me that they and their whole kind are born cowards. They are timid creatures whose emotions overpower their logic and rationality, and they are therefore unfit to lead. Their extreme emotions are triggered by slight and unimportant things, and with these worries they hinder the progress of man. Remember the last time your girlfriend got angry at you for that thing that to this day you have no idea what she was talking about? Imagine that ruling a society or a country. Imagine that fight being with another world leader. Imagine an irrational war because of the errancy of women. I'm glad Hillary lost so that America may live a few years longer.

Mankind used to be male dominated, and with good reason. Women knew their place, and men kept them there. Now, let's look at the achievements in this long period of history. We have such political achievements as the republic and the democracy. We then have technological advancements such as irrigation, the hanging gardens, the printing press, electricity, factories, cars, computers, and now even the internet. We also have such historical achievements like the Neolithic Revolution, the American and French revolutions. We have the great thinkers of history, like Socrates, Aristotle, Boethius, Bacon, Marx, Nietzsche, Borh, and, of course, Einstein. Who do you think was the most intelligent person in history, who could change the way you think, whose infinite wisdom puts this person on level with the gods? He was a man, wasn't he? Back when we were a male dominated society, men did not even love women. Most of the great men of history were gay, only having wives for children. Shakespeare was gay, Da Vinci was gay, to name a few. Men can survive without women (for lack of children, granted). Take modern gay people for example. Why do you think they are so happy? With gene science as it is now, we can make humans effectively enough without women soon enough. Jesus Christ.

Now, let's look at more modern times, shall we? In 1920, women gained the right to vote (oh, and then there was a recession, coincidence? Hardly). Coincidentally, we have not had a good president since the nineteenth century. In 1966, we had a cultural revolution. Great and all, but that's when police and the government became the bad guys. Degeneracy ran wild and became commonly accepted as culture. Then, come 1977, the Feminist movement. That was the death knell of the west as it was formerly known. Since these cum dumpsters decided they were people too, the west has become one grand showing of Dumb and Dumber. We now have what has to be the stupidest couple of generations since the Salem witch trials. We no longer have great philosophers; we no longer have great authors. We have become a nation glued to MTV and teenNICK. Remember G4TV? That's pretty much all of America at this point. And for God's sake, just look at our teenagers. What have we done to let our youth become so terribly corrupted and utterly stupid? To quote Chuck Palahniuk, "We are a generation of men raised by women". We have indeed let ourselves be led astray by the foolish little minds of women.

The fact that what I say, by modern standards, is sexist and therefore bad is further proof that we have been brainwashed. Women have convinced us that they have sufficient mental capacity to feel real emotion and can therefore be "hurt" and that we need to protect them. This is a lie. Now get me something to eat bitch.

Ergo, we have today naught but broken shards of society, the ghost of the greatness that humankind once was.

Jeremy - I whole-heartedly disagree. Statements like these are exactly the reason why I'm being barbequed for calling for a little compassion for men. If you want women to think more of men, this is not the way to do it.

am very late here. been so busy packing have missed it somehow.
I don't agree with all of this for good reasons. However I completely, TOTALLY am with you on bringing up children : yes, they are children that look upto us adults - will learn what we teach them. We do the scripting, we must be careful.

I grew up in a culture, a household where the boy child was always considered the prize, men more important than women, and it has always been MOTHERS that helped build this myth, despite knowing that it isn't true at all.
It is wrong to do this. But I do think in the West it is slightly better and it is heartening to know, that there are mums like you that care enough to try and make it even better.

Proud to know you, Jodi. Wish there were more mums like you.

I also agree with Persephone, yes, in countries like mine, this kind of thought process would be considered "luxurious" - as there gender repression/ oppression exists in a big way.

In some States like Rajasthan females are forcibly still burned on their dead husband's pyre. They do that to get property that otherwise she might have inherited.

But I also believe that things have to start getting gooder somehwhere in thaea world and that that percolates to other places eventually. So , go Jodi.

Yes, incandescent, you sure showed me for what I am. Here I am, a relatively young woman who was born after the feminist revolution, so clearly none of the things I painfully described could ever have happened. How could they, when they are illegal? There are laws which protect female soldiers yet fully 30% of the ones who served from Vietnam to the first Gulf War reported being RAPED.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/
Clearly, they are all lying or delusional. Don't those bitches know that there are laws protecting them from such acts?. Couldn't have happened. Of course, that the ones who have come forward have reported being treated as if they were "incapable traitors". Many others have been forced into resigning. My own experiences in dealing with rampant sexism and hostility is to be threatened with my life and treated by the court system as a "he-said, she-said", case which couldn't be won without a lawyer I couldn't afford. Though many of us, both male and female, in my last job suffered from religious intolerance and bigotry, no government agency want to take up the case.

I'd sooner burn in hell than be a liar. That you are unable to believe a reality which differs from your own, narrow perspective in no way diminishes that reality. That a vulgar, hate-spewing, misogynistic entity such as yourself wishes to put me down only helps to motivate me to continue fighting the good fight. Against people like you. Pity the author of this blog doesn't respond to the rampant misogyny her post has created. Between you and the assumption another made about how Tracey Clark-Florey taking out a hit on her (because that's what women who disagree tend to do) has shown me how truly low we have sunk on this site. It's sickening.

Jodi - The very reason that you're being "barbecued" for your post is because women hate the truth. Now, being that you are a woman, and a more or less reasonably intelligent one at that, you may be a little confused as to why I'm making that statement to you. Allow me to explain.

Women screw everything up that they attempt to accomplish because of the plain and simple fact that they are not wired to succeed at anything. Ever. Most psychiatrists would call what is happening with these silly little feminazi comments to your article projection. They are projecting an ill-conceived archetype of hateful, misogynistic monsters on to men so they can argue with it because they are women and women love to argue even though they're horrible at it. It's funny how women bitch about men not treating them like human beings when men are nothing more than screens for women to project their self hatred onto. Women love to make strawMAN arguments because it's the only way they know how to carry on a debate. Even when a woman makes a good point she screws it up eventually because she can't stop talking after she's gotten it across. A woman would shoot a guy in the head and then argue with the corpse. Even your post, which I found well written and enjoyed immensely, accomplished absolutely nothing because YOU (a woman) wrote it.

You may be asking yourself "Isn't that just a generalization with no basis at all?" Nothing could be farther from the truth. Let me put this bluntly. Your post will accomplish nothing more than the ruffling of a few feminazi feathers and get you attention from men who would want to believe that you are one of the few women who understands their gender as a whole. Western society has convinced women that their opinion matters and being the gullible sheep they are, women bought into the idea of expressing themselves hook, line and sinker. You are a prime example of this. The main reason your post means so little is that even if you are the one single, solitary woman in the entire fucking world that thinks using logic and reason and who's mind isn't run solely on emotion all men in their right minds would ignore you anyway simply because the rest of your gender is so inconceivably stupid. You would be one tiny little voice preaching logic to an ocean of self centered savages who's entire train of thought never strays from clothes, jewellery and attention seeking. Your post means next to nothing because it will be drowned out by man hating feminist drivel and people too stupid to post anything other than "I agree!"

Let us also not ignore your two main motives for writing this little article, 1) getting the attention of men such as myself and 2) trying to place yourself on a pedestal above other women. To acknowledge the first point, being that as a man I am generous by nature I simply thought I'd toss you the bone. Secondly I'd like to state you're trying to educate other women by what is essentially little more than intellectual peacocking and therefore an attempt to prove your dominance over dumber, less worthy women and step over your competition. In other words, points 1 and 2 are pretty much the same. You are trying to attract the attention of men because as a woman you are wired to crave it much as a junkie yearns for smack.

So, as an attention seeking woman, you succeed one hundred percent. As a logical human being, however, you fall short. That's fine though, the most endearing thing about women like yourself is your naive, self-righteousness sense of justice and how you futilely throw it in our faces.

Jeremy - Your statements are disrespectful. Attack me and my motives all you'd like, but when you disparage women OR men, you shame yourself. Work on bettering your world.

I have a sick kid to attend to tonight. I'm not able to deal with every comment. But let me just say, once and for all, this post is about what I see as unfairness toward men who are not abusers. I don't want the good guys to get lost in the shuffle to (rightly) shame men who marginalize women.

Of course, at this point, my statements about the incredible distance we still have to go for women to be treated fairly have been often ignored. That's okay. I understand how people who have been mistreated can be angered by what I've said.

I find it interesting that the other post I have floating around right now about being a counselor at an abortion clinic has been completely and utterly ignored. As has the three different posts I've written about gay rights - and my Plath work - and well... you get the idea.

I want to say, I fully and completely respect the people here who have disagreed with me. PLEASE visit their blogs and see their point of view. PLEASE respect them and their right to state their opinions without being nasty or judgmental toward them.

My desperate plea here was to stop hurting

sorry... that darn keypad mouse device is a bad thing. I should rail about that sometime.

As I was saying, my desperate plea was to stop hurting each other in the name of evening the score.

I applaud the fact that we all have the right to say what's on our minds -even opinions that challenge my own. I don't want to even BEGIN to try to squash that right for anyone.

Peace.

Jodi,

Listen. I've read your post and that of ChangeAgent (CA) and RenaissanceLady (RL). I have to agree with Lonnie and Verbal, I don't think that this essay of yours was meant to be a serious annotated treatise on the continuing inequality in favor of men and against women.

Jodi's essay rang true for me -- as a woman in a sea of men folk that are my family, two of them my boy children, and all of them truly good souls. However, the facts that CA and RL site, I know to be true, because of my field of study, and due to personal experience. I don't think that these posts are mutually exclusive or in combat readiness with each other. I also don't think of them as a matched argument, that is Jodi's vs. CA and RL. In fact, I'm wondering why CA and RL made them an argument? As women, we have enough going against us without standing against each other. This is also something I "know" to be true through personal experience. I have grown to appreciate female friends as I've gotten older, but I know the backstabbing and bitching that can occur among women, and I think that that is almost our greatest challenge to overcome.

I am so sorry that this post has led to such venom amongst sisters that should stand together.

denese

"The fact that what I say, by modern standards, is sexist and therefore bad is further proof that we have been brainwashed. Women have convinced us that they have sufficient mental capacity to feel real emotion and can therefore be "hurt" and that we need to protect them. This is a lie. Now get me something to eat bitch."

I'm pretty sure the Blakenship posts were a joke in the vein of "A Modest Proposal." At least, I certainly hope so!

Well Marple Fank,

I wish I believed that Jeremy Blankenship was joking (and he might be) but after writing a pro-woman guest column on a mens rights site, I honestly believe that there are people out there as nasty and deluded as he is.

The thing I find interesting is that he is mirroring the attitudes of ChangeAgent and her ilk, but from a male perspective. In the end, we all need to let go of that stuff and just talk to each other as people.

wow. you hit the nail on the head. i am a woman who has always supported myself. i love men, and if they can add to my happiness, great - but i don't expect them to 'create' it for me.

i am about to marry a man who is a paycheck in the eyes of the law for his ex and son - even though in my opinion, he's one of the best fathers i've ever seen (one of the reasons i want to marry him - helllooo). it is SICKENING - i have literally been told by a therapist that unless the bio mom is on the living room floor having sex with a needle hanging out of her arm in front of the child, she will always have custody and my fiance will always be treated like an ATM by the court, at the expense of his not being able to support himself. nevermind that she's a lazy, immoral, minimum-necessary person and mother who leaves the child to rot in front of a TV - apparently she's "best for the child".

and to boot, my fiance has a 6', 220 lb brother, built and lumberjack as can be, who is physically abused by his 5', 100 lb wife. she bites him, kicks him, scratches him, etc. and he has started video-ing these things so when the cops are called HE doesn't get arrested. and he's terrified to leave/divorce, because he will likely lose his 3 children to this maniac.

these two women are an embarrassment to me and all women, and i say shame on the us govt. for condoning and validating their insidious and despicable behavior. just sickening.

I've just read Jeremy's comments and I'd like to issue an apology on behalf of my fellow bearers of the Y-chromosome. We are not all as blinkered as Jeremy. And Jeremy, speaking as a historian, you have a staggering and indeed quite disgusting ignorance of real life.

@Jeremy -- "These irrational, pseudo-sentient life forms have done naught but sap the life out of intellectual and powerful men over the last hundred years or so, and we men have made the mistake of brainwashing ourselves to believe that these succubi are actual people."

PLEASE stop. This is not the answer. Women are not the enemy. Men are not the enemy of women. It doesn't matter how "shrill they get" or how much "we thump our chests"-- its not the answer.

LISTEN to them. And they, in turn, should be listening to you too.

Make real points-- say what you REALLY feel-- no, what you really WANT. And then tell them what you want THEM to do about it. And be realistic, consider what they *CAN* do about it as well.

And women-- the same for you. It does nobody any good and serves no purpose to keep beating the same old drum. I know you want change-- *men* know you want change. But *most* men, despite your assertions to the contrary-- don't have the *power* to effect those changes, anymore (or less) than you do.

If a man asks you what you want-- by all means tell him. Its the only way a dialog can begin. Stomp your feet too if it helps you feel better. No harm in that. But don't bastardize him just because he's a man. To do so makes you as bad as those you decry. And just because he personally can't do much to solve your problem *doesn't* mean he isn't sympathetic or doesn't want to.

That, in my view-- I'm expressing my *opinion*-- is one of the bigger problems-- women keep accusing men of this big "patriarchial conspiracy"-- and yet most men don't have any more power than anybody else, including *you* to affect it. And men *have* marched with you. Men *have* defended you in your struggles for equality. And men-- yup, those PATRIARCHIAL men *have* changed a lot of laws to make things better or more equitable for you.

And yet all you can continue to do is kick 'em, spit on 'em, spite 'em and fight 'em. No matter who they are or how much they've helped or backed your cause.

Please *ANYBODY CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG HERE* -- I have not seen or read or even *heard* of a single post anwhere on OS by anybody male or female-- that advocates RAPE. And in fact, quite a few from both genders that seem genuinely concerned about it.

And of course I'll get laughed out of the ballpark if I happen to bring up "prison rape". Probably serves 'em right, eh? And when someone inevitably brings up the obvious point that its a man-on-man thing... let me ask how it could possibly be otherwise, given the fact that the men are incarcerated with other.... men?

Wow. Give how relatively little response I have had to my invitation to interview people at length on their views on feminism, sexism, masculism, I had no idea these issues aroused such passionate opinions.

I would like to invite you to be interviewed on feminism and sexism on Mary Wollstonecraft http://open.salon.com/blog/marywollstonecraft

Here are the interview questions.
http://tinyurl.com/nystel

Feel free to answer as many or as few as you want. Make up your own and answer them. I will publish them unedited; I would want you to be the one who responds to the comments.

I am discouraged that these interviews are being paid so little attention in comparison to Jodi's post. Giving people a chance to explore their experiences and beliefs more thoroughly seemed important.

I particularly need to hear from people who don't delude themselves that we live in a postfeminist society or forget that feminism was a worldwide movement.

Redstocking Grandma

Mary Wollstonecraft is a group blog.

On the money, my friend. Around the world and in very real ways, women are considered inferior but in this country, the inequalities, while they definitely exist, don't have to be addressed by insults and assumptions - but they are. My young nephew asked me the other day why so many women hate men? Unfortunately, his mom left, angry and infuriated at his dad's supposed passive-aggressive behavior so he's got a lot about which to be confused. Still, it broke my heart. What we need is everyone working for justice and fairness. What we don't need is more snarky commentary.

Jodi, this is my first visit to your blog - recriprocating a visit to mine. I was not even aware of this HUGE deal - I must have been completely oblivious - hey?

wow, what a time to stop by. I am even more impressed by your comments than your original post. I am "newish" around here and I focused purely upon the exchange between you and another accomplished blogger Ms. Peel. I couldn't help but feel that if a group of women could sit around a campfire some night and hammer these issues out amongst ourselves that there would be room in the world for all of us to support each other... but some of the hateful and cruel comments presented by SOME of the men creates a dynamic in which we all feel forced to pick sides.... Ms. Peel seems to be hurting, and seems to have had a lot of life experiences which we younger women could learn. However, your sense of integrity, balance, and love spoke loudly to me.

I was raised by a tenderhearted single father, and now have two sons of my own with a loving, sweet, yet strong man. We have "equality" as a theme in our marriage and are constantly inching each other back to the "even" line. I have worked in many male dominated fields with mixed experiences. I have been attacked by men, but also "nursed back to health" by them too. We must begin by forgiving, we must end by insisting equality for both. rated and enthusiastically friended.

Y Heron - Thank you for that. Feeling for our sons does not negate our daughters. Loving that my mother in law raised the man I love does not mean I think women don't get beaten, raped or killed by men. I want to honor and celebrate the good guys out there, not attack feminism. Feminism PRODUCED the good guys in many ways. I honor that.

I have used my body as a shield between women in pain and people who would try to take their reproductive rights from them. That is who I am. I am also deeply ashamed that we abuse each other so much. All of us.

I was called a "cunt" yesterday for the first time in my life over the telephone. A kind man held me while I cried. God, I hope I remember the kindness and shed that pain. I'm working on it.

Love each other. We are all worth it.

Jodi, why on earth were you called that? I can't imagine it! It wasn't about this post, was it? (I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be over-curious, I'm just shocked that that would happen to you.)

In any case that's just awful, and I'm so sorry. There will always be jerks out there (male AND female, of course) and I hope you don't let it get you down.

Jodi, as I said much earlier when the shite first started to come down, I hope you don't get discouraged (or worse) by some of the responses you've gotten here. I'm so sorry to hear that ugliness also invaded your home life. that's horrible. Is your vacation happening soon?? Sounds like a good time for it, and being with your family. Even if it's not soon, it's really OK to step away from here or at least from this post for a while if you need to.

FWIW, I think whoever is posting as "Jeremy" may be having us on. When people make statements so extreme they are ludicrous, I smell trolls and tricksters trying to get a reaction, which is what they live for.

Marple - This is part of the gig. Yes, it was about this post. Worse things than that were said. But, I think *that* word hurt the most. A woman using a woman's body part to accuse me of putting down women. Rich.

It's a shame, but I meet them with understanding. They come from a place of pain for what's been done to them. God/dess bless them. May they heal. I know I need to start on that myself.

Something I've never quite understood. My brother, his ex and the court allowed my niece and nephew give imput on where they wanted to live. My niece wanted to live with her mother who moved back to her native Louisanna. My nephew stayed with my brother in Connecticut. Despite each parent having one child my brother had to pay child support to for my niece. He ex did not. To me you each have a child shouldn't that cancel child support out? He didn't complain or anything it just seemed odd to me. Doesn't matter anymore now that she's 19 (I guess he's still paying considering her college tuition).

Jodi, I think I would be curled up in the fetal position right now, babbling incoherently. You didn't ask for any of this, and I'm sorry, as Silkstone said, that the abuse has invaded your home.

I'm glad your post has stimulated discussion, but the personal attacks are simultaneously vicious and cowardly.

Hang in there. Keep writing.

I'm so late to this and I don't know if anybody else has posted in response so here I go.

Soap Box Army said

"And yes, men DO abandon their children every day. And yes, men ARE the rapists, the serial killers, the pedophiles, the perverts (after teaching abnormal psychology, I can assure you that the paraphilias, or sexual perversions, etc., are ONLY a male category), etc."

is this a lie? Since when has paraphilia been male only? There are more men than women that are paraphiliacs (at a roughly 20:1 ratio) but that's not what you said. http://www.medicinenet.com/paraphilia/article.htm
Paraphiliacs have a disease. If you are actually a psychology professor you should know that. They don't choose to be that. We don't know what causes it but nobody is willing to say that it's a choice.

Also, men and women both abandon children. Stereotyping is bad.

Also, for those that seem to miss Jodi's point about men being abused. Here's the Canadian statistics "The report, Measuring Violence against Women: Statistical Trends 2006, shows that male victims of spousal assault trail females by only one percentage point, with seven per cent of female respondents saying they had experienced violence from their partners within the past five years, compared to six per cent of men. That's 654,000 women and 546,000 men who have experienced physical abuse ranging from shoving, slapping and scratching all the way to assault with a weapon." and the source it came from: http://www2.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/life/story.html?id=c7261e56-6285-4d7c-9e68-c0d9bca86a55

I don't feel like looking up Americas ratios because I just happened to stumble across that article anyway. But the point remains. Men are abused almost as much as women are but you never hear about it, and treatment clinics are geared toward women primarily. Also, I feel it should be pointed out for the sake of both sides that partner abuse happens by both heterosexual and homosexual couples, meaning some men are abused by men, and some women are abused by women too.

Jodi is right. For those of you arguing against her maybe you should ask yourself why you are. The only people I've seen so far raise their voice in opposition are women. That's the equivalent of you finding a blog written by a man about women's rights and then seeing comments left by men saying that women need to stop complaining, and that they don't need any more rights, and that they're just crazy bitches. You wouldn't be happy with that, and I'm not happy seeing women stereotype men when they lack the experience of being one.

Great post. I agree wholeheartedly. Feminism does need to be about equal rights.

Jodi:

Thanks for writing your post.

I am a 42 year old American father of two, and I have become increasingly aware-of / distressed-at the anti-male attitudes of our society in the last few years. The crystallizing event for me was watching how my wife's cousin was treated by the courts when his wife staged a false domestic violence incident (claiming he had attacked her) and he was duly arrested (purely on her say-so, with some non-trivial evidence that she made it up in the police report simply ignored) and hung out to dry.

Your post was very well done. I can't thank you enough for writing it.

I mostly do my news reading/commenting at reddit (as user hopeless_case, which is how I was lead to your article here) and find myself pretty frustrated on the equality reddit trying to engage self-described feminists in acknowledging the ways in which men are unfairly treated by society. This is usually met with a variation on "men run the world, how can they be significantly oppressed in any way?" from both men and women.

I tend to think I am setting myself up for failure by going to a forum like reddit's equality forum, which would tend to attract people with an axe to grind in the first place.

What matters is what is going on in the mind of the average man or woman, and self selected forums are no way to measure that.

I notice that your article is acting as a catalyst to get many people of good conscience who would (wisely) otherwise not waste their time fighting the gender wars to come forth with their honest and heartfelt observations of how men are treated badly.

It is remarkable.

Bravo, Jodi.

Ah, now I see, this is a generational thing. Boomer women do not understand that below a certain age range, the reality is very different than what they knew.

Don - I have to disagree a bit there. While the experiences which inform the women who disagree with me may well come from their perspective of the times they live in, that doesn't negate our ability to communicate those experiences.

My mother was a manager at the national GEICO office in the early 1960's, she went on to work at banks, car dealerships and finally today, a restaurant management company. (All male dominated fields.) I have internalized her experiences, along with those of other women I know (and those I've read here).

We all have the ability to give respect to experiences outside our own, no matter what our age. It's a choice.

I've never seen China, but I know it's there.

I have to say that I agree with almost everything you say but must point out a fundamental flaw that caught me right away. Women (and men) can choose to seek a mediated divorce agreement rather than use the courts to determine their fates with custody. My ex, even though he decided to remarry and move away, still has joint custody with me because we chose this route. He pays child support faithfully and is a great dad, although I'll never understand how he bears being away from our son, who's 12. You know as well as I how special and important every day is in the life of a child this age!

On the other hand, my first husband, who fathered my twins and then left us and has never paid a dime of child support, in my opinioin, deserves every stereotypical deadbeat dad title I can think of.

Which brings me to you last point. As the mother of three sons, I try with every fiber of my being to never make blanket statements about men or ever get caught up in common rants about "stupid men" or "deadbeat dads" when hanging out with women. I get angry when anyone makes derogatory comments about men around my sons, and I'm amazed how common this is. In order to raise respectful, honest and empathetic sons who will hopefully turn into wonderful husbands and fathers some day, we must ensure they are surrounded by the same kind of mother sand women. Thanks for your insight!

Hey Jodi,

I admire the fact that you want us to respect those who disagree with you, but I think I speak for almost the entire human race (lofty statement, isn't it?) when I say that this Jeremy character is a huge, leaky douche who needs to shut his toxic mouth.

Now let me apologize to you for not honoring your request to allow people their opinions. This fool's rants do not, in my estimation, qualify as opinion - so I'm letting myself off on a technicality.

K

i just wanted to thank you for leaving jeremy blankenship's comments. in this discussion, it's helpful to have a few examples of realio trulio sexism to point to.

and i think this is no longer true:
"I must say, I don’t know a single man, NOT ONE, who thinks I am a lesser person because I have a vagina. "

it's something to think about. you wrote an entire post pleading for equality, and some asshole came out to punish you for it. i'm glad you and mr e both responded to him so positively. it gives me a lot of hope. meanness doesn't suit civilized folk of either gender.

Hey now, scroll up. I told him he was being disrespectful and non-productive.

I have an online version of whack-a-mole which stops my violent outbursts. I am of the Evil Gerbil People. Fear me. Grr.

I've always thought about this stuff, but never really said it. Maybe I was afraid? Some men maybe are afraid of male bashing sexist women...like me, a gay man. lol. I walked by a Hot Topic store and saw a shirt that said the "Boys are great, you should own one!" thing on it. I was a little offended! Coming from a gay mans point of view, male bashing isn't cool at all.

@Jodi -- "I've never seen China, but I know it's there."

I've seen London... I've seen France...

Jodi, even though your post was entitled "Equal Rights for Men, " I've come away from the comments feeling empowered as a woman. You've paved the way for such incredible dialogue and brought forth so many different perspectives that I feel, whether we all agree or not, that noone will leave this post without a slight shift in consciousness. thanks again.

@incandescent, please don't put date rape in quotation marks. It happens. It almost happened to me and no doubt would have if there weren't other people around who were easily awakened. Sadly, it has happened to friends and relatives. RE: sexual dimorphism, the threat can be there just through size difference and body language. Dude, if that women had 50 pounds on you, you must have recognized that.

Again awesome that you've never noticed any sexual discrimination, but I am thinking that maybe you might not have been aware?

This one time I had a job as senior developer in a start up. It was me and 4 guys working there. Three of us were the technology people, and I was the person creating the product that the whole company was based on. Needed to concentrate, no? But when the phone rang, they all wanted me to pick it up because they wanted to present the outside world with a female voice. That company folded, btw.

Don, I'm amazed that you think sexist treatment is now a thing of the past and only happened to women of "my generation." I'm not exactly ancient, and as countless comments on this blog and elsewhere have indicated, many younger women have also experienced this kind of inequality. I wish what you say WAS true, but I know from my own experience, the experiences of others, and from teaching young men and women for 8 years, that it is far from a thing of the past.

I think this is one of the best feministic essays I've ever read. "We can go forward together." Isn't that the theme of the past year?

Unite, don't destroy.

Great points. Though I'm not officially on the same page...in the same chapter at least.

Don't know if I'm officially treated as "holy" except by the occasionally spectacular and advanced male. I know the feeling of which you speak, but I can't say that I see that as commonplace at all.

I also don't think women are applauded for male bashing, in the form of calling them lazy, sex-driven, etc. And men DO routinely "joke" about women being bitchy, frigid, hormonal, etc. The sexist "in bad taste" jokes are on both side of the fence...and equally not funny.

The reason your 11-year-old couldn't wear a shirt that reads “Girls Are Great, Every Boy Should Own One” is because its too close to the truth to be funny. It strikes a raw chord.

Girls shouldn't wear the visa versa shirt of course, but sometimes I wonder if that's a normal reaction to trying to regain some power in a disempowered and imbalanced world.

Anyway, kudos. Good thinkin' material!

Excellent, albeit rare point of view. My biggest rag about 'modern woman' is the attitude that men should blindly and wholehearedly support her pet causes, careers, feelings, feelings, feelings, desires, wants, needs, ad nauseam. If a man knows anything, he knows this; if he starts to talk about 'his feelings' about an issue, it is bound to end up in an argument. Women generally do not support men, our feelings, our pet causes, wants, needs, or anything in between. I said, generally, not always. If women did support men, we wouldn't still be trying to get equal protection under the law or fighting for men's rights. I was in my 20's during the women's liberation movement. As my mom is a very strong, independent woman, this presented no threat to my manhood and was 'all for it'. Over the last several decades, it has no come to my attention the 'movement' was a complete sham, for the most part. Many, many men were shamed into supporting the women's movement, and used it to bash men over the head, in job preferences, promotion preference, custody and divorce courtrooms, to name a few. Yet, men have been fighting for years to get a fair shake and where are the women? Still complaining they don't get a fair shake. Pu-lease. If a woman could magically become a man for (1) day, when that day was done, she would be begging to return to her former self, along with the undeserved perks that go along with it. I was naive enough to believe that when women finally found themselves on equal footing with men, they would morph into rational human beings with a sense of fair play and teamwork. That is the joke that has been played on men. Remember when women claimed they didn't want to be viewed as 'sex objects' and wanted to be valued and loved for their minds? That idea flew out the window, didn't it? Women use and flaunt their bodies to control men. Men better wake up and stop letting women manipulate them, year after year, decade after decade. I am not bitter, I am a fully liberated and free man. There was a time in my life I thought women were oh, so mysterious and difficult to figure out. It is not as complicated as I thought as a young man. Pitting man against man is a woman's most vicious tool. Until men wake up and smell the coffee, it will continue to work. One last thought, I am not a misogynist. Accusing me of that is silly, albeit easy and convenient to let one's behavior off the hook. Those that don't care much for Obama are accused of being racist; the ideas are analogous. Just because one does not like the policy, does not a racist make. Ladies, we helped you when you needed the help, where are you now? Bitter with an ax to grind, I suspect. Let it go.

This post was written in love.
It was written for the good men that I know and love - and most certainly for the millions of men like them.

I had no idea that the message I tried to put out in the world would be viewed by so many. One can only selfishly hope for such a thing for themselves.

These words I wrote came from hope. They can very easily be twisted, shaved down and used as a shiv to further any agenda.

Weapons don't solve anything when everyone has them. They just make people bleed.

If there's anyone out there who is tired of bleeding, drop the weapon and reach out your hand. If you are still attacked, at least you are the one searching for something better. The worst that can happen would be that things would stay the same.

To the men who are using this post to attack women as a whole: This is why women don't speak out for you. This is why women are suspicious. This is why women are defensive. If you behave this way in words, how must you behave in deeds?

On the other hand, I am deeply grateful to the vast majority of you who exchanged ideas in a peaceful way. It gives me so much hope.

I've paid very dearly for being unarmed. It was worth every penny.

Jodi, I think I love you!

I was the named plaintiff, in VA in a class action suit in almost all 50 states a few years about some of the things you write about. The courts are way out of hand. In fact there are 27 million NCP's in this country and only 3 million of them are women. Why is that? If the divide was close I would say things are equal but you can't tell me that there are that many men who are drunk, wife beating, jerks.

BTW, we do want our kids.

As for women beating on men. Happened here. I'm not a violent person and would never hit anyone except in extreme self defense. My wife is not big enough to do a lot of damage unless she used something. However, there were times when I called the police until I figured out they wouldn't even do a report on the call.

Jodi, to make Changeagent happy, you can put your shoes under my bed anytime.

:)

Just found this in the Chicago Tribune- University of Chicago apparently has a new advocacy group for men only - the first of it's kind on campus

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-u-of-c-mens-groupmay19,0,4707353.story

The simple truth is when women marched towards equal rights, many honest compassionate men fought to help women. Let's start by a Republican (yeah republican) majority in congress who passed the 14th amendment. Or white male judges on the supreme court who made the decision in roe v wade that a woman's body was her choice. I have noticed many histrionic "lifeboat" feminists stating that their is still much to accomplish.

The only proof that they can parade out is the tired old "boogeyman" of rape and sex assault and the wage gap myth. Their have been about 5 scholarly studies proving that the wage gap is nearly entirely due to decisions women make.

Now, against this back-drop of the tandem boogeymen of the wage gap myth and rape hysteria, let's roll out the long list of ways men are 2nd class citizens today.

Men are 90% of all homeless.
Men are 80% of all suicides.
Men earn 150,000 fewer bachelor degrees per year then women.
Men are 41% of college enrollment nationwide.
Men are 37% of college graduates nationwide.
Men are 92% of all those murdered.
Men are the victim in over 80% of all violent crimes.
After gender-neutral spending, the NIH spends 8 of every 10 dollars on women's diseases compared to 2 of 10 dollars on men.
Men are about 95% of workplace fatalities (of roughly 5000 annual deaths 4750 are men).
20% of the United Ways budget goes to girls education, and nothing for boys.
Of cancers that affect both genders, men are almost twice as likely to get cancer as women.
Men live 7 years shorter than women.
Women substantially out-vote men. The voter is the politician's boss. Could this be the reason their was a VAWA ahead of protections for children/seniors/the disabled? How much more vulnerable are those groups over able-bodied adult women?

Fathers get sole custody about 6% of the time, mothers about 78% of the time (and those stating the father's wanted this because they didn't contest the custody arrangement are turning a blind eye towards those fathers who self-selected themselves out of battling for custody because their lawyers (who should know) never lose custody).

Now regarding rape and sex assault. I will concede the point that men are the prime majority of those who commit violent crimes.

~However~, in the USA there are almost 1 million volunteer fire-fighters (i.e. uncompensated). This doesn't include EMT's, FEMA workers, and a host of other areas where people risk their lives to save total strangers for little or no wages.

Not only does the number of men who save far Far FAR **FAR** outweigh the numbers of men who harm/kill/rape/abuse but the number of men who save also far outweighs the number of **women** who save.

I would like it if society and particularly feminists would stop trying to pass off the entire male gender as inferior. As I have demonstrated, neither gender is inferior--the two genders are simply different.

I think it's interesting that when women fought an honest fight to be anything they chose, many many men reached down and pulled women over this barrier.

Now that it is men who need a hand up, they are getting ruthlessly kicked in the teeth and laughed at.

If a woman can be anything she wants (pilot, attorney, professor, astronaut, governor, president) why do women (including feminists) call a house-husband a bum?

The looser the gender roles get for women, the tighter the gender role straight-jacket gets for men. No-fault divorce was ushered in under the watchful nurturance of feminists stating that women could now leave abusive or stagnant men--that this was a freedom from the strict gender role orchestrated to keep women down.

But after no-fault (read: man-fault) divorce was passed in 49 states what affect did these millions and millions of divorces have on men?
Well, let's see:
#1 the divorced father would now have to pay for a house he no longer resided in and a place to live for himself.
#2 He would have to pay child support and possibly spousal support.
#3 He would be thrust back into the dating scene, meaning he would need even more money (because women don't date penniless men)
#4 If lucky enough to marry again the man would now have to pay for two mortages, child support and a new family.

What does this mean? The divorce that lead to shattering women's gender roles lead to an INTENSIFYING of the man's gender roles as he now has to work longer hours, toady up more for promotions, possibly be on-call, relocate, etc... to earn the extra money the divorce imposed upon him.

Feminists now fight for equal perks (or superior perks) for women (and women only) under the name of "equal rights", but violently fight against anything that would give "equal responsibilities". Men's rights groups and father's rights groups have been fighting for shared parenting laws in many states, because we believe that a child post-divorce should have substantial parenting time with both parents. NOW had an action alert up stating "this was a danger to women".

Lucky for MRA's 50% of our numbers are made up of women: paternal grandma's who see how easily mother's lock their sons out of their grandchildren's lives, 2nd wives who witness the incredible hardships that vengeful ex-wives place upon the men they love just because she can (with government approval), and daughters who lost their dad due to BS claims of abuse of some kind.

For more information on these very important fights please look at:
www.glennsacks.com
www.mensactivism.org
www.mensnewsdaily.com
www.angryharry.com

Excellent post. Very well said.

Good on you!

I am a middle-aged man in the midst of a custody battle, and I am seeing many of my male friends (and their daughters and sons) destroyed by divorce.

I'm done. My girlfriend is moving out by the end of the summer, and I have a vasectomy scheduled for September. No more live-in girlfriends, wives etc. for me - there is just too much liability involved.

Women are living in a dream world when they complain about men's "lack of commitment".

We are just being rationale given the vagaries of Family Court (no due process or evidentiary standards in civil actions), the therapy community or other groups that sit in judgment of fathers in conjunction with the legal businessmen and businesswomen that collect exhorbitant fees for carving men away from their families.

I fear for my daughters' future - will there be men available to marry when they grow up? Will they be at all intelligent if they are men willing to marry? Probably not.

Jodi: Over all, I think this is a very simplistic view of history, male-female relations, and the changes that happen when people start seizing power for themselves. Its problems are also compounded by pull-'em-out-of-my-ass statistics.


You typed: unless Jane lights up a crack pipe in the courtroom she will get physical custody." Women, unequivocally, have custody much more than men, but this is deeply misleading hyperbole.

Go to the link for more than I show here.
Custody in Single Parent Families by Poverty Level
Father Mother
Number Percent Number Percent
(1000s) (1000s)
White Below 194 13.1% 1,287 86.9%
poverty
level
Above 991 26.7% 2,716 73.3%
poverty
level

Black Below 108 10.2% 952 89.8%
poverty
level
Above 187 14.3% 1,122 85.7%
poverty
level
Hisp. Below 85 16.2% 439 83.8%
poverty
level
Above 191 26.8% 522 73.2%
poverty
level

Source: U.S. Census, America's Families and Living Arrangements 2004 Current Population Survey, March 2005. Table FG-6. (Figures combine never married and divorced families; numbers in thousands)

You then typed: "If you drive by a house with a dying lawn, is your first thought about what a crappy homeowner the WOMAN is who lives there?"

Actually, I don't give a shit what shape someone's lawn is in, though I would much rather see whomever get rid of the lawn and put in plants.


You continue: "How about at work? Women can openly talk ... about the hot new guy ... What kind of pigs are the men who talk about ... a woman? If a woman asks a male co-worker out on a date, the worst that can happen is rejection. For a man, the worst that can happen is the loss of his job and a sexual harassment suit. Is that gender equality?"

This is, in my experience, almost completely true. But, you ignore history. While I always feel I can say "yes" or "no, thanks" (or "Oh, god, I thought you'd never ask!"), I am a man. Why we have this difference is a long, ugly history of sexual harassment that goes vastly in one direction and is nowhere near over.

Then, Jodi, comes the fear of male sexual predators: "Imagine you’re in a toy store and a woman shopping alone comments on what a beautiful little girl you have. You are pleased and flattered. [and the opposite for the assumed creepy guy]" Being worried about male child abusers is an unfortunately all too accurate reading of history. OTOH, I, a 62-year-old man have done and do things like this (making comments about children to their parents, or engaging the kids in conversation) often and am still out on the street to tell the tale. I don't think it's as common as you feel it to be. Most people, in my experience, do not leapt to the conclusion you claim for them.

You refer to men as "lazy assholes and women as "bitches" in your next example about women-bashing men. And, while I call women on male-bashing, the words asshole and bitch tell a story, too. There are many woman-specific derogations. There are few for men. There is a long history, again, of attacking women though language. Anyone can be an asshole, but only a women—or a man being put down by being compared to a woman—is called a bitch. This, too, continues to be entirely too common today.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics women are about six times as likely as men to experience intimate partner violence. So, it's a lot more common then most of us think. I would not think a man who is afraid of his wife is a wussy, but I may be unusual. On the other hand, returning to the previous topic briefly, where does "wussy" come from: wimp and pussy. "Pussy" is a put down. WTF?

You clam that "Men are now often the stay-at-home parent." According to the best numbers I could find, 0.2% of fathers are stay-at-home parents. I know it is up considerably from the time I was a single, custodial father, but there's a way to go before it gets to often.

Onward you type: "I must say, I don’t know a single man, NOT ONE, who thinks I am a lesser person because I have a vagina. The men I know see women as mysterious, alluring and even holy."
I wouldn't be so sure, if I were you (well, obviously, if I were you, I would be so sure, but you get the idea). Plus, this whole "mysterious, alluring and even holy" thing reminds me of the mother-madonna-whore trope—not something that has worked real great for women.

On this: "There should be no 'price' on intimacy" I am totally with you. Once again, however, reality rears its ugly head. People are massively screwed up about sexuality. Part of that problem manifests in "putting a price" on it. I was involved with a woman decades ago who expected me to have sex with her because she cooked me dinner, and expected me to buy her meals when we went out together. This, too, is also a holdover from history. Women, until fairly recently in the so-called West and still in many other places, were property; didn't have money for themselves; were expected to provide sex for things, even if not overtly.

I completely agree with you about the T-shirts: “Boys Suck!” – and my personal favorite “Boys Are Great, Every Girl Should Own One!” I don't like either one, because, while the boy's version is recognized for the ugly sentiment it expresses, the girl's version seems cute. Ultimately, however, it causes the same alienation for both girls and boys. Just as male bashing does.

You make the powerful statement that "We will only have equal rights as women when we FULLY recognize that each person is a human being, regardless of sex, with the same wants, needs and feelings as everyone else."

But, as Frederick Douglass said, "If there is no struggle, there is no progress. those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without ploughing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the awful roar of its mighty waters. power concedes nothing without a demand!"

Or, in my own feeble interpretation, the recognition is not going to convince those still in power (that would be men) to go along with your sentiment. There has to be struggle because privilege is not something people easily let go of. There has to be (at least) a little ass-kicking (metaphorically, of course).

Though I mostly disagree with you, thanks for the thought-provoking post.

@RenaissanceLady -

"That a vulgar, hate-spewing, misogynistic entity such as yourself wishes to put me down only helps to motivate me to continue fighting the good fight."

Um, you directed that at me? What did I say that was either vulgar or hateful? Or in any way misogynistic? I've been called a lot of things, but misogynistic - that's a first.

Some of the comments here have been truly misogynistic, but none of mine were.

I believe in plenty of realities besides my own, and often feel very real pain about the suffering of others. My point to you was simply that in corporate America today, sexism is usually dealt with very quickly by human resources and organizations such as the EEOC. I'm sorry if your own experiences have been different. How have you personally been discriminated against, and what remedies have you taken to rectify the discrimination?

I'm going to spend the weekend with my family.
Please try to respect the opinions of others, folks.

I would like to point out, for those bazillion of you that don't know me personally, that this is a blog - not a term paper, thesis or scientific statistical analysis. These are my personal feelings. If they threaten or offend you, please feel free to ignore them or share your own feelings. If you're looking for the census data on divorces from an 18 month period last decade, I can't help you out there.

I really like some of this, Jodi, but I also have some big problems with it. The pervasive social pressure to conform to certain gender roles does hurt both men and women. There are some places where men really do get the worst end of the deal. The issue of child custody in many jurisdictions and the automatic assumptions of pedophilia are two that I think you nailed on the head. I also like your assertion below in comments, that all of us make choices about handing over our own or taking away another's. Change starts with refusing to bow to society's expectations.

That said, I think that a lot of your examples miss the mark. Your example of talking about the hot new coworker, for example, misses a lot. For starters, women are constantly judged primarily on their looks. Even most of the liberal avowedly feminist women I know often reveal in casual conversations that one of the first things they judge another woman by is her looks. Women are constantly praised or bashed for their looks in conversation and pop culture.

That reality makes discussing a woman's looks at work a far more high stakes conversation than women talking about a hot guy. A man's sexual attractiveness does have some impact on his career suceess, but far less impact than a woman's. The level of relevance isn't remotely comparable. You also have to consider that - unless you've lived a very sheltered life - sexual advances can sometimes involve a threat for women. While I'm sure that there are exceptions, that basically just isn't the case for men. I'm pretty sure that if offerred the chance to trade my freedom from being constantly judged on my appearance and my complete ignorance of experiencing being hit on as creepy or dangerous for the privilege of being able to talk about the hot new coworker, I'd decline.

I agree that the portrayals of men as a bunch of Homer Simpsons or sex-crazed idiots denigrate men. I also think, however, that they are part of the constant barrage of messages that we get enforcing traditional gender roles. Women still do the overwhelming majority of house work and child care in the US regardless of who works more. The idea that men are incompetent bufoons who couldn't handle it if you let them reinforces the notion that women are stuck doing all that work. It allows women to vent a little frustration that their husbands watch a lot of TV and go out with their buddies once a week while they do domestic chores at home at the same time that it confirms that this is just the natural order of things.

I'm not saying it's a black and white. Women often play a huge role in discouraging men from taking on these kinds of responsibilities by refusing to give up any control. In many families, it's not enough that men take an active part in child rearing or housekeeping. They have to do it exactly the way their wives would. That in itself makes the man "the help" rather than a parter, and it's no wonder that a lot of men decline to play along. So on a micro level, this stuff is a lot more complex than "men oppressing women," but the whole Homer Simpson thing is a message that reinforces this idea that women are responsible for the home and children.

It's the same thing with sex. The portrayal of men as simpletons at the mercy of their hormones sends a social message that you can't hold men accountable if they act poorly while trying to get laid. The basic idea is that men just lie, cheat, steal, and do whatever they can to get some, and while it's annoying it's also kinda cute too. It of course also contains the flip side that women are the guardians of chastity who have to be the grownups, control the sex, and - of course - are complete sluts if they go beyond whatever a particular person or group sees as a socially acceptable leve of female sexuality.

I applaud your call to eschew broad generalizations about the sexes and to take personal responsibility for rejecting attempts to force us into pre-defined roles. I do think, however, that you're exaggerating the ways in which the push for equality has hurt men and missing some of the context in which these things play out.

As a white American man, I can pretty confidently say that my privilege is alive and well. Sure there are times when the rules of a patriarchal society work against me, but they're the exceptions.

To LadyMiko: Check the statistics. For every 1000 pedophiles, fifteen of them are women. Out of a thousand. Did you get that? Out of thousand pedophiles, 985 will be men. Not only that, the male pedophiles are often priests or family members and do far more damage, physically, psychologically, and emotionally than do female pedophiles whose victims often feel as though they "got lucky".

In fact, my husband, who attended Catholic school and graduated from a Catholic college, was approached by priests six or seven times during high school mainly, for "weekends at the shore" or "coming over for a drink".

As usual, if indeed you are a woman, it is women who disappoint the most. Too many men are barbarians. Ask my daughter, the gorgeous bartender.

It is women who disappoint me the most. If there's one thing I would do over if I could be 21 again, and Iused to tell my students this, is concentrate more on my education and career! Men can wait. And I wish I had supported women more than I did, even though I was a member of NOW for years and marched for the ERA in D.C. in 1978. (I'm so proud of that!!)

Women should stop chasing men. Most of them really aren't worth it. As for my problem with men: yes, most men are not rapists nor violent toward women...but WHERE ARE THEIR VOICES? THAT'S RIGHT! NOWHERE! WHY AREN'T MEN DECRYING MALE VIOLENCE RATHER THAN GETTING PISSED OFF WHEN WOMEN DARE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT?!!!

Go ChangeAgent!! You're brilliant!! Absolutely brilliant...and you write well, too!!!

Jodi: Over all, I think this is a very simplistic view of history, male-female relations, and the changes that happen when people start seizing power for themselves. Its problems are also compounded by pull-'em-out-of-my-ass statistics.


You typed: unless Jane lights up a crack pipe in the courtroom she will get physical custody." Women, unequivocally, have custody much more than men, but this is deeply misleading hyperbole.

Go to the link for more than I show here.
Custody in Single Parent Families by Poverty Level
Father Mother
Number Percent Number Percent
(1000s) (1000s)
White Below 194 13.1% 1,287 86.9%
poverty
level
Above 991 26.7% 2,716 73.3%
poverty
level

Black Below 108 10.2% 952 89.8%
poverty
level
Above 187 14.3% 1,122 85.7%
poverty
level
Hisp. Below 85 16.2% 439 83.8%
poverty
level
Above 191 26.8% 522 73.2%
poverty
level

Source: U.S. Census, America's Families and Living Arrangements 2004 Current Population Survey, March 2005. Table FG-6. (Figures combine never married and divorced families; numbers in thousands)

You then typed: "If you drive by a house with a dying lawn, is your first thought about what a crappy homeowner the WOMAN is who lives there?"

Actually, I don't give a shit what shape someone's lawn is in, though I would much rather see whomever get rid of the lawn and put in plants.


You continue: "How about at work? Women can openly talk ... about the hot new guy ... What kind of pigs are the men who talk about ... a woman? If a woman asks a male co-worker out on a date, the worst that can happen is rejection. For a man, the worst that can happen is the loss of his job and a sexual harassment suit. Is that gender equality?"

This is, in my experience, almost completely true. But, you ignore history. While I always feel I can say "yes" or "no, thanks" (or "Oh, god, I thought you'd never ask!"), I am a man. Why we have this difference is a long, ugly history of sexual harassment that goes vastly in one direction and is nowhere near over.

Then, Jodi, comes the fear of male sexual predators: "Imagine you’re in a toy store and a woman shopping alone comments on what a beautiful little girl you have. You are pleased and flattered. [and the opposite for the assumed creepy guy]" Being worried about male child abusers is an unfortunately all too accurate reading of history. OTOH, I, a 62-year-old man have done and do things like this (making comments about children to their parents, or engaging the kids in conversation) often and am still out on the street to tell the tale. I don't think it's as common as you feel it to be. Most people, in my experience, do not leapt to the conclusion you claim for them.

You refer to men as "lazy assholes and women as "bitches" in your next example about women-bashing men. And, while I call women on male-bashing, the words asshole and bitch tell a story, too. There are many woman-specific derogations. There are few for men. There is a long history, again, of attacking women though language. Anyone can be an asshole, but only a women—or a man being put down by being compared to a woman—is called a bitch. This, too, continues to be entirely too common today.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics women are about six times as likely as men to experience intimate partner violence. So, it's a lot more common then most of us think. I would not think a man who is afraid of his wife is a wussy, but I may be unusual. On the other hand, returning to the previous topic briefly, where does "wussy" come from: wimp and pussy. "Pussy" is a put down. WTF?

You clam that "Men are now often the stay-at-home parent." According to the best numbers I could find, 0.2% of fathers are stay-at-home parents. I know it is up considerably from the time I was a single, custodial father, but there's a way to go before it gets to often.

Onward you type: "I must say, I don’t know a single man, NOT ONE, who thinks I am a lesser person because I have a vagina. The men I know see women as mysterious, alluring and even holy."
I wouldn't be so sure, if I were you (well, obviously, if I were you, I would be so sure, but you get the idea). Plus, this whole "mysterious, alluring and even holy" thing reminds me of the mother-madonna-whore trope—not something that has worked real great for women.

On this: "There should be no 'price' on intimacy" I am totally with you. Once again, however, reality rears its ugly head. People are massively screwed up about sexuality. Part of that problem manifests in "putting a price" on it. I was involved with a woman decades ago who expected me to have sex with her because she cooked me dinner, and expected me to buy her meals when we went out together. This, too, is also a holdover from history. Women, until fairly recently in the so-called West and still in many other places, were property; didn't have money for themselves; were expected to provide sex for things, even if not overtly.

I completely agree with you about the T-shirts: “Boys Suck!” – and my personal favorite “Boys Are Great, Every Girl Should Own One!” I don't like either one, because, while the boy's version is recognized for the ugly sentiment it expresses, the girl's version seems cute. Ultimately, however, it causes the same alienation for both girls and boys. Just as male bashing does.

You make the powerful statement that "We will only have equal rights as women when we FULLY recognize that each person is a human being, regardless of sex, with the same wants, needs and feelings as everyone else."

But, as Frederick Douglass said, "If there is no struggle, there is no progress. those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without ploughing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the awful roar of its mighty waters. power concedes nothing without a demand!"

Or, in my own feeble interpretation, the recognition is not going to convince those still in power (that would be men) to go along with your sentiment. There has to be struggle because privilege is not something people easily let go of. There has to be (at least) a little ass-kicking (metaphorically, of course).

Though I mostly disagree with you, thanks for the thought-provoking post.

I'd like you to know that I am a very slow reader. It has taken me days to go from admiring your post to wading through the subjective tangle of the comments section to arrive at a kind of cathartic realization. You are an humanist. My favorite kind of person. If this had been a jam session, I could have said all that by the second refrain.

Kind of sad that at the end of it all, some people don't even get what you were trying to do here, or what you were saying.

Feminism, what it once stood for - equal rights for women - is a beautiful, necessary thing; a part of human evolution.

No one is arguing that there are still areas of society - especially in other parts of the world - where women's rights are not equal to to those of men. No one is arguing that women still do not suffer from sexism today.

ALL you are arguing is that women can achieve equal rights without doing it by stepping on the backs of men, and that men have their own unique challenges in this world as well. When the pendulum swings to right a balance, sometimes it swings too far in the other direction, and it takes a time to find that perfect balance.

It saddens me that women like my wife or you can look at this post, nod, and go, "Of course men have unique challenges and deserve to not be discriminated against because they are men - just as women deserve the same. An ideal world is one where ALL humans have equal rights."

Such a simple, pure, true message.

And yet you have people trying to argue it.

"boys are great, everyone should own one" is the best thing ive ever heard of. every little girl should have one.
every boy too. to get the truth out in the open....

women "own " men in the sense that they 1. gave life to them...well, not them, but you get the point...through their vaginas, etc..... 2. they are radar experts. they read the social skies and eyes and make a nice place in the social structure for a man...behind every great man, etc..

3. they have the ultimate magnetic draw....obvious. it is a power so unappreciated and so misused that

maybe all girls should be given a "training course" in jr high, before the breasts bud...

Jim e. loved it.

bill - Gotcha the first time. I promise. Like I said... this is an opinion - not a term paper. Sorry I disappoint by not linking my personal feelings to statistics.

Thank you for your contribution.

"Ricky B - I would not tolerate a man in my life thinking that I deserved less (money, happiness, respect, power, decency, opportunity) than he does. They aren't there."

"In your life" does not equal "I don't know". Like I said, you're just not counting them. Had you said "there's no-one in my life etc," I'd have said nothing. But you do know them. Some are transparent enough so that you dislike them even if they don't come out and say anything, and some are simply better at not letting on, but you know them.