Great to find out what's going on in a country that has government health care. The lies and deceit going on in this country is overbearing. I just wish we could have a civil debate, whether we put it into law are not. Just a civil discussion. How hard is that! In America, it is very hard!!

and lets hear from the Canadians, that would rather make the trip south across the border into the (now) USA and pay out of pocket for some fine American health care, than to wait months on end to see an NHS doctor for some crummy care, even if they should have the care immediately. DO you REALLY want that? hmmm? not me!

Thanks for your comments.

Scanner: New ideas in any country are difficult to accept. You will know that I always resist the temptation to become involved in the political debates in other countries, including USA, but this is a copy of an item where people are defending an attack on OUR system by those in another country and therefore it is legitimate for me to do so. I hope that in time the debates in USA would be peacful as you say.


Debbs4. welcome to the blog. Pleased to see you here and hope you will feel free to look around. I am not in a position to comment on the American system, but regarding our NHS I wonder whether you have tried iit at all. All systems will come with their own weaknesses as well as their strengths, so I am not pleading for any perfect system. However, we do have a lot of people coming to the United Kingdom just because they want to use the British NHS.

BTW, does Canada call there system NHS as well?

ok, can some one advise me from the American side. Have I overstepped the mark in posting this item. Does it give the impression that I have gone too far in referring to a matter that is being strongly debated in American politics, or is it as intended to be a defence of the British and a system that has worked well here for 60 years?

Tell me what you think.

Thanks for the welcome! No, Canada does not call their system "NHS". It is Canada Health Care system. It is illegal to have private medical insurance. There is an allotment of $5,000+ per citizen, depending on the province you live in. And, yes, it is not perfect. Neither is what we have got here. The big stink is that it will cost trillions to establish and maintain. Have you heard we do not have the trillions that it will take to set this up here in the States?! Whom do we borrow it from/indebt/enslave ourselves to, Communist China? Guess what is coming brother, if that happens. “The borrower is slave to the lender. When you are in debt to another, you enter into a slave/master relationship with your creditor” (Proverbs 22:7). And may I remind you that America stands unique within the world. We are under no one else's rule. This is how we started out, anyway. They say most cultures only last a couple hundred years, then, the fall. I guess it is our time.

The United States has 300 million people. England has 60 million people. They have problems in their Health Care system. The US will have 5 times the problems.

Preach it, Blackflon!

Thank you for your comments again. So, my question:

"Have I overstepped the mark in posting this item. Does it give the impression that I have gone too far in referring to a matter that is being strongly debated in American politics, or is it as intended to be a defence of the British and a system that has worked well here for 60 years?"

I am unsure if either of you have answered that question.

Dear Jon,
No, you haven't overstepped any boundaries here, you have the right to speak your mind, that is the nice thing about blogs. And we do appreciate your viewpoint. It is just a hot topic right now, and probably won't go away anytime soon. Tell us, when you have the time, what your personal experience has been with your country's health care system, both positive and negative.

and, I understand, there were changes made to your system to allow for private insurance to be bought if chosen...is that true?

Hi Debbs,

It has always been possible to have a private arrangement if any wishes. It has never been illegal to do so.


The NHS arrived here just after the war and had many of the objections raised at that time as has been raised in USA. However, the NHS is available for ALL to use if they wish irrespective of backgrounds. There is no restrictions on the nationality of those using the system, hence my comment previously that people do come from other countries to the United Kingdom to use our NHS and then return to their own country, so thats same as you say curently happens in USA. Appaently they come because they find some positive aspects here. (BTW, Blackfron, the word Britain or United Kingdom is not interchangable with ENGLAND, which is only one part of the Nation)

I have had a lot of pastoral involvement with those with health concerns, and it is helpful that none have to worry about the cost of medical care at what is already a tough time. Priority is related to the severity of the health concern, not the financial situation. BUT, if any wish to go private as well here is nothing to stop them.

Debbs, you mention the spiritual aspect in one comment, is it not good that one has a system that seeks to care for those in need throughout society, whoever they may be.

Jon,
We do have Medicare which, as my sis-in-law who needed it was told by the govt woman who helped her out, "This is the best healthcare you will ever have". So, we do have healthcare for those that need it. I think this idea of funding it with taxpayers money is not right, and the aspect of services, such as abortion on demand, being funded by taxpayers that do not agree with it, is ultimately, wrong.

“The borrower is slave to the lender. When you are in debt to another, you enter into a slave/master relationship with your creditor” (Proverbs 22:7)
I mentioned this Bible verse so as to make the point that the principle of borrowing enslaves us to someone. America is out of money, so we will enslave ourselves to another country. The end of America as we know it, It will no longer be America. We will be ruled by some other that has totally different values than we hold dear. That was my point.

Debbs, you mention the spiritual aspect in one comment, is it not good that one has a system that seeks to care for those in need throughout society, whoever they may be.

Debbs, I understand what you are saying about Proverbs, however, I have come across a number of Americans with limited income who have spoken of how they have delayed having important medical attention because they could not afford it. So, should they put themselves in debt as individuals to have medical care.

"Debbs, you mention the spiritual aspect in one comment, is it not good that one has a system that seeks to care for those in need throughout society, whoever they may be."
~Yes, whoever they may be, even the unborn, disabled, elderly. Whoever they may be should be cared for by those that can do so.

is your last comment complete.

Well, Debbs, that is the principle that the NHS is founded on. (remember that my intention of this post was to highlight that the BRITISH NHS was serving a purpose, even though no system is perfect, and not to try and attack what may/may not be happening in USA)

You have over stepped nothing!! As a matter of fact, you know more about the U.S. health care system than most Americans. These people are blind, and following drug company lobby's and their shills. I had a chance to "try" and read the bill twice. It is impossible for a lay-man to read and understand, must less one who goes in with a bias. I would be willing to bet that not 25 people know everything in the pre-bill, and nobody, and I mean nobody, knows what the final bill will be. "It hasn't been written yet". It's being debating. The American system will puy this bill in the Congress, and Senate, and they will pound out "what they want". Then it goes to committee, with both pounding out what will become the bill. And then the Presidents people will pound out what they want. And "then" if you can have a complimise, in the year 2013, it starts, and will take 10 years to come to fruitation! Thank you for making people 'Think"!!

In fact, I was following some of the debate last night on twitter and watching some of the NetRoots Nation live-streaming on Facebook, too.

It is indeed a hot topic.

And, no, you have not over-stepped. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it would be very difficult for a well-mannered Brit or Scotsman to overstep any real boundary when addressing us know-it-all Americans.

;~)

I predict that if a bill ever does get passed-- and with the public option-- that entrepreneurial activities will really take off (they can't now due to the lack of affordable individual health care). And before you know it, Americans will be acting as if WE ha'd invented the whole idea of democratized health care. Naturally, we'd have to give it a new name... something that does not smack of socialism, don'tcha know.

Debbs4: It is not "illegal" to have private medical insurance in Canada. Either you are shockingly ignorant, not Canadian, a liar, or all three.

Oh, and despite the propaganda spewed forth and paid for by insurance lobbyists and Republicans, the number of Canadians who seek treatment in the U.S. is quite small. The government will pay for people to have treatments there, but they are not life-threatening. Anyone who can afford it can go anywhere in the world to have elective surgery if they don't want to wait their turn. Canada is hardly unique in that. EVERYBODY has access to medical care here, not just the rich.

Yes, there are wait times, longer in rural areas, just as there are in most countries with universal health care. I would rather wait than not be able to afford it at all, or go bankrupt trying to pay co-pays.

It's a no-brainer for those of us who actually live here, and who don't insert religion into social policies.

Oh, and despite the propaganda spewed forth and paid for by insurance lobbyists and Republicans, the number of Canadians who seek treatment in the U.S. is quite small. The government will pay for people to have treatments there, but they are not life-threatening. Anyone who can afford it can go anywhere in the world to have elective surgery if they don't want to wait their turn. Canada is hardly unique in that. EVERYBODY has access to medical care here, not just the rich.

Yes, there are wait times, longer in rural areas, just as there are in most countries with universal health care. I would rather wait than not be able to afford it at all, or go bankrupt trying to pay co-pays.

It's a no-brainer for those of us who actually live here, and who don't insert religion into social policies.

I should say that they are rarely life threatening. If you are seriously ill, you go to the top of the list. You don't have to spend months getting sicker while you haggle and appeal to an insurance company who will likely disqualify you anyway.

Thanks for all the comments that have arrived in my absence. It is good to be able to hear the diferring opinions. Thanks also for the reassurances that I have not overstepped the mark.

Sorry I was not here to respond to the comments, ironically I have been to visit a dying patient in a local hospital. Debbs has asked if I could give some eamples of my experiences with the NHS and I intend to do that. It may be bst if I do it as a seperate post. Give me an hour or so to collect my thoughts together following the hospital visit and I will post my thoughts.

Thanks.

jon, sorry for the double post.

I truely don't think we can have multiple insurance organization in a government insurance system for it to work... But no one is really ask the people,"We the people that we think of it all." Plus, it doesn't sound like they have one than one idea on this but I don't really listen to the news any more it seems to be more like listen to propaganda than news most of the time.

Emma, no problem with the double post, it was a double blessing for me.


In respose to Debbin the following post:s request, I have given some examples

http://open.salon.com/blog/jonmagee/2009/08/14/national_health_service_yes_it_can_do_it/comment

not sure how those words got mixed up, but I hink you will get the gist of it

Dear Ms. Peel and others,
Well, I would apologize to say that what I had heard was only half true, thus making me ignorant. And, no, I am not a Canadian. However, I did not lie to you and I don't appreciate your meanness to me. Healthcare has become a mean topic, I don't know why, I guess it is just the nature of people to get bent out of shape about others trying to take control of our lives, on either side of the fence.
Here is a place where I found that private health care coverage is not allowed in Canada, in more than half the provinces.
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/6/825
It appears to be a legitimate site. Here is the title of the article:
The illegality of private health care in Canada, written by:

Colleen M. Flood and Tom Archibald
Dr. Flood is Assistant Professor and Mr. Archibald is a doctoral candidate, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ont.
The article states, in small part that, "Private insurance for medically necessary hospital and physician services is illegal in only 6 of the 10 provinces." Again, I am not a Canadian, I am ignorant of the laws there, but I did not lie and do not appreciate the crass and accusatory manner in which I and others here are being addressed. I thought we were a civil nation. I guess not.

Debbs4: I apologize for calling you a liar. That was uncalled for and you are quite right to chastize me.

The article in question is nearly 10 years old and out of date. As well, its essential information is taken from a right-wing think tank known as the Fraser Institute, so it is not completely objective.

If Canada were to allow all doctors to accept privately paying patients, the entire universal system would collapse as most doctors would not accept any publicly insured patients, which is largely the case in the U.S. Our system ensures that everyone gets the same chance at health care, and in some provinces, people can pay for private care at home or abroad. The doctors' fees are capped to prevent exactly what has ruined the U.S. system. Some doctors go to the U.S. to earn as much as they can after getting a hugely subsidized education in Canada, but many, such as a gynecologist friend of mine, prefer to stay here rather than pay outrageous insurance premiums.

I am unsure how to respond here. If I get this wrong, please forgive me as my intention is to try and defuse any tension.

Emma, thank you for giving the apology. Emma, thank you for speaking with me privately and sharing your general concerns. (No mention of individuals was made in that private message)

In many areas, not just in this particular debate, the concept of change can be very difficult, and some times there can be some genuine fears that are not easily over come. The same fears were there 60 years ago when the NHS began, so there is nothing new in the current debate. I hope that we can all come back to the debate with a willinness to listen to each other. In the issue of health we will clearly be speaking of the care of others, and likewise in this kind of debate we will get the best as we care about each other.

sorry if that sounds like a lecture. I know that debates etc on the internet can be full of dangers and barriers for us to fall over.

"evil and orwellian"

betcha this guy has the best insurance and backs it with wads of money from insurance companies. to be precise, america is not uniformly orwellian, there are pockets of simple corruption that overwhelm organized state oppression.

Debbs4, Medicare is funded by taxes.

Thank you, Steve K., for the update, but I do know that Medicare is and has always been funded with taxpayer money. I mentioned the case of my in-law utilizing it only to point out to Jon that we do have a system in place, that at least partially works. Not too important at this point, but just to clarify, the second part of my bit was about the upcoming national healthcare bill. That's all. Thank you.

Thanks for keeping the discussion going whilst I slept. I am amazed that a post which is merely a copy of a news item has far more comments than anything I have written myself. I guess thats quite humbling as well ...... lol

I have gained access to the message David Cameron (leader of the UK opposition party, Conservatives) has sent out to his supporters, and others. My understanding is that Gordon Brown has sent similar messages. I copy it below:



People still care about the issues they care about, and thanks to the internet they can voice their concerns whenever they want. Just look at all the support which the NHS has received on Twitter over the last couple of days. It is a reminder - if one were needed - of how proud we in Britain are of the NHS.

Millions of people are grateful for the care they have received from the NHS - including my own family. One of the wonderful things about living in this country is that the moment you're injured or fall ill - no matter who you are, where you are from, or how much money you've got - you know that the NHS will look after you.

That's why we as a Party are so committed not just to the principles behind the NHS, but to doing all we can to improve the way it works in practice. So yes, we will spend more on the NHS, but we will also improve it so that it is more efficient and responsive to patients. People working on the frontline will actually be able get on with the job they signed up for, without getting tied up in a web of targets. And we will put more power in the hands of patients by giving them better information about the care they can expect to receive.

Underlying these reforms, and our whole approach to the NHS, will be one big ambition - that future generations will be even prouder of the NHS than we are today.

"No, Canada does not call their system "NHS". It is Canada Health Care system. It is illegal to have private medical insurance. There is an allotment of $5,000+ per citizen, depending on the province you live in. And, yes, it is not perfect."

Debbs4...you are stunningly ill-informed. It is Americans like you that make us in the civilized world shake our heads. Do you really make such harsh decisions based on one or two web articles without ever speaking to a Canadian or visiting Canada. We are right next door. Please stop yourself from speaking authoritatively on subject that you know NOTHING about. One web article does not make you informed.

I see that Emma Peel has done a fine job of trying to educate you on our system. I would like to add my voice to that.

First there is NO such thing as a Canadian Health Care System. It is run by individual provinces. It is provincial insurance. In Ontario, Canada's largest province, (and there are only 4 states in the US with populations larger, it is called OHIP. Google IT and learn something. That nullifies your size matters argument. And there is no annual allotment - we use the services we need when we need them. Last year my retired 76 year old father had colon surgery and had to spend a couple of weeks in the hospital - not because anyone did anything wrong - total cost to him was $0.

It is NOT ILLEGAL to have private insurance in Canada. I have it. Employers offer it, my retired parents used to have it. Unless US IP addresses are blocked, you can see my choice of plans with Manulife here www.coverme.com. I am self-employed. Every major corporation in Canada provides private insurance for their employees...which the employees pay for through payroll deductions - does that sound familiar? The difference is that we pay less for private insurance because the basics are covered by the provincial service.

A few Conservatives who are funded by private Insurance companies and big pharma are pushing to create a two-tiered system here. We fight vigorously against that because we don't want to live in a world where only people with money receive healthcare. As Emma said, if doctors were allowed to accept patients who would pay more than the provincial insurance pays, then that is all they would see. Two-tiered healthcare is what the US seems to have, and we would never want your system. In fact, I've never heard of a modern democracy or even a banana repulic in the world standing up to say, "let's implement the US system."

Please do continue to inform yourself. I have done two blogs on the subject; both were on the front page of OS. Maybe you missed them, or maybe you are only interested in biased sources. I am a Canadian. Please start with this one and then read this one.

As I have said elsewhere, you will take my healthcare system from me when you can wrestle it from my cold dead hands.

The US system is in the dark ages. Most modern democracies in the world today provide ALL their citizens with basic healthcare that is funded through tax payer dollars. What that does is ensure that people get preventative, inexpensive, early-stage healthcare rather than late end-stage heroic healthcare as in the states. Removing a pollup found during a routine colonoscopy is always substantially cheaper than treating a patient for colon cancer ALWAYS...and it is more humane.

Please fully educate yourself before you speak again on the health system of any other country or continue to be a blind, unpaid shill for US Insurance companies who are desparately protecting their right to grossly over charge US citizens for healthcare service.

I am happy to answer any of your questions on our system...as will any other Canadian on OS I am sure.

Well, I'm on Medicare because Massachusetts put into law that noone can be uninsured. I hold three jobs, one that pays under the table, because I have to make sure my income doesn't force me off Medicare. I'm getting great treatment from my Primary Care Physician, but can't even get on a waiting list for dental, even with a broken tooth.
I have had "bad" mamograms that resulted in a biosy - something I never would have been able to afford without Medicare, because I CAN'T AFFORD INSURANCE.
And I don't have a family to support! People are losing their lives, literally and figuratively, because we don't have national health insurance.
I could go on - programs, funded through grants, to reimburse victims/survivors of rape for their ER visits. That's right - good luck going to the ER and PAYING FOR IT after you have been raped. Never mind any after-care.
Now I'm in a bad mood. Awaiting another mammo in two weeks because another blotch has appeared. Thank goodness I can "afford" it.

The comments on this blog are more informative than the post itself, and we should be particularly indebted to Emma Peel and JK Brady for their ongoing efforts to shed a strong light of truth upon the mania and misinformation spewed by those who are ignorant, or those who have a vested interest in keeping medical coverage in the hands of greedy insurance corporations, bloated pharmaceutical companies, and doctors who practice medicine based upon systemic DISease rather than health.

...with my apologies to Jon. I did not intend my comment to be disingenuous. This is a good post and yet another example of socialized medical benefits that work. Canada and Great Britain both have government programs that shame the United States of America, which is the richest nation on Earth and the most miserly and unresponsive to the needs of the general population. It's time for humanism to find a home in the USA.

As I have pointed out many times before, the US Congress has voted itself full government subsidized medical benefits, along with a $15,000 per month pension for life for anyone who "serves" even one term. As a whole, they don't serve us. They serve the banking and insurance industries who have crippled our country.

amazing,
isn't it...?

that it's come down to this.

no need to apologise. Why should I be offended. I commented earlier that I was surprised that this post, which was only a copy of a news item, got more attention than many of my posts which I had composed myself.

So, you are right to denounce my post compared with the fine comments. Now, feel free to take a peek at my real work in the other posts.