Judy Mandelbaum

Judy Mandelbaum
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MARCH 10, 2010 11:00AM

Rachel Corrie's day in court

Rate: 17 Flag

 Rachel Corrie
Rachel Corrie, 1979-2003
(Source: Rachel Corrie Foundation)
 

Israel’s spectacular announcement yesterday that it is planning to construct 1,600 new housing units in East Jerusalem – made during a visit by Vice President Joe Biden, who supposedly traveled there to help restart the peace process between Israelis and Palestinians – threatens to overshadow another major story that is hitting the newswires. Today the civil suit regarding the death of American human rights activist Rachel Corrie is beginning in a Haifa courtroom.  

Corrie, a student from the Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington, and a member of the International Solidarity Movement, traveled in January, 2003, to the Gaza Strip during the Second Intifada. The ISM is a Palestinian-led non-violent movement aimed at protesting Israeli activities in the West Bank and Gaza. On March 16, Corrie's body was crushed by an armored Israeli military bulldozer while she and other activists sought to protect Palestinian homes in the town of Rafah in the Gaza Strip with their bodies.  She was wearing a reflective vest at the time. The exact circumstances remain unclear, and it is still not known whether she died on the scene, in transport, or at the Palestinian hospital.


Rachel Corrie 
Rachel Corrie facing down an IDF bulldozer
on the day of her death
(Source: ISM)

Eyewitness Tom Dale later wrote:  “The bulldozer drove toward Rachel slowly, gathering earth in its scoop as it went.... They pushed Rachel, first beneath the scoop, then beneath the blade, then continued till her body was beneath the cockpit. They waited over her for a few seconds, before reversing. They reversed with the blade pressed down, so it scraped over her body a second time. Every second I believed they would stop but they never did.” The IDF, however, claims her death was an accident and that the bulldozer was not demolishing houses but merely clearing away brush and potential explosive devices.

The family has filed suit for damages, claiming that the government of Israel is to blame either because of intent to cause harm or through negligence. They had already made an unsuccessful attempt to sue Caterpillar Inc., the company that manufactures bulldozers for the IDF.   The Obama administration is maintaining a low profile, claiming that the IDF has not provided a thorough investigation. According to a State Department report from 2005, “US officials who have seen the IDF report found inconsistencies among the statements of those observing the incident. Some observers continue to raise questions concerning whether the investigation was thorough, credible, and transparent.” Vice President Biden’s staff met with the Corrie family on Tuesday and have ensured them that a US Embassy official will be on hand throughout the civil trial.

The Corries themselves accuse the IDF of destroying video evidence of the incident and otherwise obstructing a thorough investigation.  For example, Dr. Ahmed Abu Nakira, a Palestinian physician who treated Corrie after the incident and later confirmed her death, has been refused permission by the Israeli authorities to leave the Gaza Strip and travel to Haifa for the trial.

In her emails home, Corrie called for non-violent resistance, but also said she understood why many Palestinians would feel the need to reach for stronger measures:

If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. 

[…]  This has to stop. I think it is a good idea for us all to drop everything and devote our lives to making this stop. I don't think it's an extremist thing to do anymore. I still really want to dance around to Pat Benatar and have boyfriends and make comics for my coworkers. But I also want this to stop. Disbelief and horror is what I feel. Disappointment. I am disappointed that this is the base reality of our world and that we, in fact, participate in it. This is not at all what I asked for when I came into this world.  

Many Israelis regard Corrie differently, however, claiming that far from protecting Palestinian civilians, Corrie was a terrorist stooge and the International Solidarity Movement is a cover organization for terrorist activities. “An Israeli bulldozer injured Corrie as she tried to prevent it doing its job of protecting Israeli civilians,” writes Jerusalem-based journalist Judy Lash Balint.  Rabbi David Forman goes a step further, essentially depicting any display of solidarity towards the Palestinians as an act of appeasement and, ultimately, terrorism:

Given [the Rachel Corrie Foundation's] lofty goals, how is it that there is not a word mentioned about a high-level delegation from Gaza that joined Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's gathering in Iran to lend support to President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan after he was accused by the International Court of the Hague of committing genocide, or for that matter, any mention of the violent takeover of Gaza by Hamas, or the firing of rockets into the Negev? By pure syllogistic reasoning, the foundation supports genocide in Darfur, brutal Hamas killings and indiscriminate assaults on Israel's civilian population.

So welcome to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Mr. Biden. It’s the best zero-sum game in town.

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wow, yet another great post Judy. This will be interesting not only to watch unfold legally but in local and international press. A tragic accident? I don't know, I find commentary on this disturbing but predictable. I need to read your links to get a better idea of this. Thanks as always for great posts. xx a
I remember the "incident" vividly, as if it happened yesterday. Rachel Corrie was intentionally murdered by the I"D"F forces. Reputable accounts of the perpetrator smiling as he smashed into her were rampant at the time.

israel and justice are as the Easter Bunny accusing Santa Claus of being a fraud.


rated.
Thank you for posting this. _r
She was murdered. How is the US kid doing who was shot in the head with a tear gas canister last year? As if that was an accident. Israel is a monstrous nation. It is a foreign country. Israel is a foreign country. The US would do well to cut off ALL aid to Israel, especially after yesterday's deliberate insulting of VP Biden. Enough is enough.
This woman was a courageous martyr to the cause of bringing sense and compassion to the sickness that is the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I feel so sorry for her and her family.
Why must this go on?
You do the impossible here: you present a complex and volatile piece of recent (and ongoing) history, wherein partisans burn with moral outrage on every side, and manage to lay it all out with shrewd editorial restraint. I feel so divided about her/the incident: she represents my own left/progressive tradition gone horribly wrong, blindly embracing undemocratic religious zealots in "resisting" a flawed but democratic Israel. Too many on the left, especially in Europe, adhere to a vile "new" anti-Semitism.

I feel for her family.

I am a huge fan, Judy. You are a gift to OS.

(and I would love to see you examine Noam Chomsky. His publishers in Europe print holocaust denial books, for which Chomsky wrote one introduction. The affection for him on in the American left baffles me; it's as if there is a black hole that suck reality from wherever he is mentioned)
It is always a balance to weigh in on these issues. The pain of the people caught in the middle goes on and on. This was a terrible tragedy and waste of human life. I would like to believe peace is possible in the middle east, but the longer I live, the less I believe it without great changes that seem less reality and more fantasy. Rated.
I HEART Rachel Correy RIP and this news and writing was excellent. I hope Israel gets it big time, but so sorry, that so rarely happens. So many foreigners not to mention Gazans have been murdered. Israel is self-destructing with the addition to violence and refusal to dialogue but nothing new can be said about that. r
So sorry I meant Rachel Corrie. Names are important. & to Sheila below, the Palestinians have nothing except sex and breeding as you put it. Walk in their shoes as Rachel C did and then you can speak of them. I lived in Gaza too, as many here know and though I agree that we won't see peace, the blame is on Israeli govt and the citizens' passivity. But it's the Govt that will self destruct.

I adore Israel. I love living there. But as a journalist I saw both sides and what Israel does is not to be believed. The birth of the state was a dream come true, the execution of that dream is a blight not a light unto nations. I am speaking from vast experience going back and forth. Daily. For many many years. Rachel was an innocent but she knew what she was getting into, in a way.
As a colleague of mine said a while ago, the creation of Israel was a massive mistake, one for which many are now paying. The Palestinians are paying with the loss of their homeland and their continuing degradation; the Jewish people are paying with the coarsening of their culture and religion as an increasingly brutal state commits growing atrocities in their name; and the rest of the world pays as an intractable conflict continues to create violence and instability in a struggling part of the world. And then, of course, people like Rachel Corrie pay by trying to do what is right against a powerful military machine that enjoys a bizarre level of protection and support from the American government.

What makes the Arab-Israeli conflict intractable is the question of how to live with the mistake after it has been made and cannot be reversed. Israeli Jews, however unjust the creation of their state, now have a right to be in their country. But, of course, they have no right to build their country on the continuing theft of Palestinian land and the subjugation of a brutalized population.
It is shameful that no decent investigation of this young woman's death has ever taken place. Why is our government only now sending Biden over there, after her family has spent their money and energy trying to get some justice? Her death should have been prosecuted by the U.S. as a crime many years ago.

My sympathy to Rachel's family. May they somehow find peace.
I'm glad they're taking this to court. I remember when it happened, and wondering how it could be an accident to run over a girl with a bulldozer. thank-you for writing this.
It hurts my heart that there is so much Antisemitism in this world, and it pains me to see such blatant naivete on the part of so many of you who have made radical, hateful comments toward Israel. I feel so hopeless and hurt, I don't know what to say.

I will say this: The Rachel Corrie case is tragic and terrible, whichever way you slice it. However, Rachel's emails portray that the proverbial "egg" that is the Palestinians living in such a closed-off environment (Gaza) came before the "chicken" that is Israel's current restrictions on Gaza in the first place. Gaza exists in its current state because of Israel's need to protect itself from extremists who continue to attempt crossing into Israel strapped with bombs so that they can kill as many people as possible.

If this "conflict" were closer to home - if it was something along the lines of people crossing into the U.S. from Canada or Mexico with bombs strapped to themselves, I think many of you would not hesitate to support serious lock-down of our borders and highly restricted access (if even any access at all) to and from the U.S. from those areas.

I feel for Rachel and for her family. I do not think that the IDF acted in its best interests in this case, but this is just THAT, an individual case in which someone very naive lost her life.

We must all brush up on Middle Eastern History (from unbiased sources) and then make decisions.
"The Palestenians do not help themselves by breeding like rabbits when they are in a tightly confined area."

This is a pretty racist statement. Do you propose that israel have the right to tell PalestInians how many children they can have?
What Israel and the US must come to understand is that brutality towards anyone doesn’t promote peace or security but guarantees hostility from the helpless. Especially in the middle east where grips and grudges go back a thousand years. Americans, perhaps that should read people from the new world, where history doesn’t go back as far, don’t understand the deep and historical grudges are being played out daily.

I agree with helping Israel in 1948, but really after 1973, Israel is the most dominate country in the middle east. Today they are the oppressor and by building more settlements in the west bank, closing the border in Gaza, and by generally allowing their armed forces to indiscriminately kill whoever they want whenever they want, they have lost my support and much of the worlds.

The US is doing the same thing in the stans, our drones that kill wedding parties are not going to win the people over. They’ll have even more reasons to hate us and all we are doing is helping them recruit even more crazies to go blow up US interests.

What I’m saying here is not anti-Semitic or anti-American, it’s against government sponsored oppression. Oppression breeds terrorism because it’s all the oppressed can do to fight back. Peace will not be realized when there is any injustice towards one of the parties by the other. Didn’t work for the Nazis, the world didn’t allow them to continue; the world has to make this stop too.
Thanks everybody, it's fantastic to get such a great discussion going!
It sounds like someone knows NOTHING about Gaza.
MY GOD!!! My blood is BOILING RIGHT NOW!!! I HATE POLITICS but I can't keep quiet when I see injustice !! innocent people die just because of a PIECE OF LAND!!! Does anyone ever celebrate LIFE any more? Life is all about MONEY?? POWER?? and a land to call OUR OWN??? We all leave this land behind after we expire no matter what...LEAVE THE LAND OF GOD TO GOD!! Creating boarders has caused more seperation than UNITY!!! Where does LOVE or KINDNESS ever becomes part of our actions in life!!?? How many people have to DIE so this NON SENSE FIGHTS would STOP!!???

God created us to love one another, to care for each other and be there when one of us is in need...Everything else is all man-made! Boarders and dividing God's land caused segregation, seperation and the drive for man Power to control others...

I am a Global Citizen and my religion is the "divine Oneness"...
New Buddha Fan - You don't have a clue what you are talking about. If you looked into the issue even just a little bit you would realize this has little to do with religious zealotry as you put it and everything to do with the Israelis stealing land, occupying the Palestinian's land, collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing. The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against an occupier. The Israelis have no right to do what they are doing.

Greg Correll-Please give some kind of support to your claim that Noam Chomsky is a Holocaust denier. Nothing could be further from the truth. Criticism of Israel does not equate to anti-semitism. When you throw that term around, you make it lose its meaning. There is anti-semitism that takes place but when someone denounces Israel's often illegal and immoral actions they are not being anti-semitic, they are simply pointing out the injustice.

rwnutjob - There will be no peaceful solution to the situation as long as the U.S. continues to blindly support Israel and its criminal behavior. Your comment that Palestinians breed like rabbits reveals you to be the backward, racist, hick that you are.
Below you will find a link to a story about two people killed by snowplows here in Montreal. Now you will ample reason to spread hatred and prejudice towards Canada too.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=95c17a12-9230-4fd3-9333-1ac3bc2b324d
New Buddha - How would you feel if you and 700,000 of your closest friends were kicked out of your homeland because some other country decided to give your homeland to another country. The Palestinians didn't participate in the Holocaust so why should they have to pay the price. Why not give the Israeli's a homeland in Germany or some other place. Guilt over the Holocaust is no reason to allow Israelis to steal Palestinian land and then treat them like shit.

rwnutsack - Are you serious? Palestinians population growth causes Israel to take defensive measures? Please. You can not possibly justify Israel's behavior like that. Come on, you can do better. How about zionism is racism and advocates genocide and ethnic cleansing. If Israel wants to use defensive measures, they could agree to a 2 state solution with the 1967 borders which has been agreed to by Palestine and the Arab states. Israel doesn't want a 2 state solution, they want it all.
gaza aside, why are none of the arab states willing to accept or give land to the palestinian people?

hamas calls for the destruction of israel and the extinction of jews.

i just feel there is more than enough blame to go around. this girl was caught in the middle of it; she was trying to help, but i don't think it's the type of situation that can be fixed by people other than those directly involved. that will require a change of attitude and that's not going to happen while religious leaders go around calling for nations to be wiped out.

imho, israel is making some mistakes. but they have been attacked for so long for just existing that it isn't hard to understand.
Most of the answers have already supplied by AlaskaProgressive, except for one.

I'll take this one:

missingk8, it ain't only k8 that you're missing, but the FACT that even ten years before the state of israel came into (illegitimate) existence, genocide and torture were being perpetrated against both the British and the Palestinians.

It might behoove you to google the stern gang, the irgun zvai leumi, and Deir Yassin.
i'm sorry this young lady died. any organization that the letters form the the acronym ISM sounds wrong from the get go. the photo provided by ISM above looks staged.
@markinjapan: i want to thank you for your condescension. it is a big help. i will check them out.

but my sympathy for or trust of the brits is not the highest. i've been involved in the irish troubles for too long.

before you make fun of or use one's name in a post, you should have the decency to know that person a bit...your attitude, rather than educating, makes me want to just tell you to get stuffed.
Have to LOVE the inherent RACISM exposed here on OS on a daily basis...

Tell me... ALL of you ... HYPOCRITES...

What is the specific date that you will be leaving North America? You are GUILTY of what you condemn in Israel and is not the definition of hypocrisy condemning in others what you yourself are guilty of? Evidence of said hypocrisy is all around you... in the ONGOING genocide of the indigenous people of North America.
When people feel superior to others simply from the point of “victimization” the whole World starts to suffer!! Point being, Jews have been using “Holocaust” for years just to condone their feeling of around the World. Now, I am not denying that Holocaust was in fact one of history’s worst tragedies. However, we’ve had/have so many leaders around the World that are doing worst than Hitler these days. Millions of people have died around the World and somehow we can’t get over Holocaust! Look at India! Africa! Iran! So many people are dying in front of us and no one seems to see that! If we believe in the fundamental aspect of human rights, than one tragedy does not justify killing others because our ancestors got killed! Palestinians had NOTHING TO DO WITH HOLOCUST!!! How is it that so many Jews live in Germany and Austria these days? How come there is no hate crime against Germans or Austrians? Please note I personally believe NO ONE on this planet deserves to die intentionally! Being Jewish, Muslim, Christian does not and should not justify killing others or feeling superior to others!
Also know, God did not promise Israel to Jews! Even if he did, it still does not mean anyone who wants anything other than a Jewish state shall be kicked out or die…God DID NOT give anyone the OKAY to kill the people he created. At least that is not MY GOD!

Here are some questions I love to hear the answers to:
1) Israelis KILL Palestinians and no one calls them terrorists but when Palestinians kill Israelis, they are called TERRORISTS!? Anyone who kills anyone is a TERRORIST period!
2) If ANY ONE US gets kicked out of our homes and have our children and women killed, do we strap ourselves with bombs just to retaliate!? Is it fair to say: “Canada or Mexico” should take us in because we are Christians…Hmm! That just sounds ridiculous!!!

Israelis are doing exactly what Hitler did during the Holocaust except they are killing the wrong people who had nothing to do with supporting Hitler.

Peace and blessings to you all …
@padideh: why have the arab states left the palestinians to rot in refugee camps? why have they denied them basic rights in their countries?

i am not fortunate enough to be able to see the world in black & white. i struggle thru the grey areas.

i believe the arab states keep the palestinians down because it supports their cause. i believe the israelis need to move into the 21st century. they all have a right to exist, but until they all believe it, it isn't going to happen.
Mrs Raptor - Not sure where the inherent racism comment comes from. Are you suggesting that criticism of Israel equals racism? I hope not.

I agree the Native Americans were treated and still are treated outrageously and we owe them a lot and I support policies that help correct the injustices that have been perpetrated against them. However, it is not hypocritical to point out the outrageous treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis and want them to stop.

Missingk8 - Perhaps the other arab states are unwilling to give the Palestinians any land because the Palestinians already have land... in Palestine. It's just that the Israelis continue to steal it and that has to stop. No justice, no peace. There must be a right of return for displaced Palestinians to return to their homes that have been stolen by zionists.

I agree many of the Arab governments have not done enough to support the Palestinians and should rightly be condemned.

As far as your comment - "israel is making some mistakes. but they have been attacked for so long for just existing that it isn't hard to understand." What exactly do you mean by just existing. Do you know the history of the creation of Israel. As Markinjapan pointed out it was based in terrorism by the Irgun and Stern Gang. Google the King David Hotel bombing. What Israel are you talking about with regarding to just existing. Is it the Israel within the 1948 borders, the 1967 borders, today's borders, or the ever expanding borders of tomorrow as Israel continues to build ILLEGAL settlements on Palestinian land. They don't have a right to exist in Palestinian homes. What if someone bulldozed your house, built a new house for themselves in its place and told you that you had to recognize their right to exist. I hope you would say Fuck You and hope for their extinction.

Religion is used in the conflict, but it is not really about that. It is about the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians from there home, the continued theft of their land, the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, the collective punishment and the illegal occupation. Palestine has a right to resist occupation. Hamas has said inflammatory things, but so has Israel. Google some quotes from Ben Gurion, Menachim Begin and others. They are appalling. The conflict has not been going on for centuries. Israel is only 61 years old. If we act, we can end the injustice. Learn about what is going on. Once you look into it, it's not that complicated. It actually is pretty black and white.
Once again, Alaska Progressive has come to answer the comments, I would have made.

Look K8, I am sorry if I was condescending, but I was born in an orthodox Jewish family, with rabbis on both sides of my family. It does not make me feel good to see the israelis assume the role of the new nazis of this century, but facts are facts:

israel has been condemned by the UN more than eighty times, and it would be much more if america did not yield its powers of veto for its client state.

israel is clearly in violation of the Geneva conventions in its home demolitions.

israel, despite possession of ~ 250 nuclear weapons refuses to participate in the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, now own up to its arsenal.

america gives the THREE BILLION dollars a year, and when america demands they stop illegal settlements, they laugh in our faces and continue as they wish.

Gaza, is "allowed by israel 1/10th of its daily needs, making it not only the highest population density in the world, but a literal concentration camp, not seen since the Nazis.

Finally to put the onus on other Arabic states is disingenuous at best.

Is it realistic to place the onus of blame on Arabic states to be held responsible for, israeli intransigence. The amounts they contribute to Gaza is the only thing that stands between total starvation.

Is it realistic to think that israel would allow a mass exodus from the open air concentration camp to allow Palestinians to relocate to neighboring Arabic countries who have already absorbed as many Palestinians as they can.

A modicum of research is necessary before entering a discussion of such importance. I even had to check whether Deir Yassin occurred before or after "statehood.

This may be helpful:

http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/
I'm a believer in the principles that motivate Zionism; I see no evidence to believe that the forces which once made clear the need for an armed Jewish state have at all dissipated -- rwnutjob's posts in this thread are a rather effective illustration of that point, I think.

I also think the example Rachel Corrie represented, whether or not she was wrong-headed in the particular episode that lead to her death, is the best hope the Palestinians have for *successfully* pressing their case for justice and redress. The problem, of course, is that Palestinians are not uniformly determined to pursue their goals through such acts of civil disobedience as hers. As long as their collective strategy mixes in liberal doses of such tactics as rocketing civilian villages and attempting to infiltrate Israel to conduct suicide missions, there's nothing a thousand Rachel Corries will be able to do to solve the problem -- because the summary effect of the Palestinian strategy will be to reaffirm the thoroughgoing demoralization of the Israeli left and fuel the pretext-driven agenda of the Israeli right.

Make no mistake: Israel, as the far more powerful side in the conflict, will have to be the one to *make* the peace. But Israel, as the far more powerful side in the conflict, is also in a much better position to weather endless conflict if it must. I believe Israelis can be made to recognize the shame they ought to feel as a consequence of the worst policies of their governments, but not while they are also having continually to look over their shoulders to see if the fellow boarding the bus behind them is trying to get not downtown but to shaheed heaven.

To all those who would argue that Palestinians have the right to act in self-defense -- leave aside for the moment the question of their right to act, or even the question of how rocketing a civilian village contributed one iota to their own "defense," and ask instead: what good have these tactics done them?
Needless to say mr. lieberman either didn't read my post or the link contained therein, or found the whole megillah too hard to comprehend.
DLeiberman - As long as the U.S. continues to support the illegal and immoral activity of Israel, there will likely be no change.

There could be a thousand Gandhis in Palestine and no one in America would know, because our media has a blackout on all things just. The IDF would launch tear gas and rubber bullets then arrest the Gandhis and hold them indefinitely without charge. Or they would run them over with their bulldozers. Oh wait, that is what is happening now.

To your question - "what good have these tactics done them?" I would say, not much, but perhaps it is better to die standing than live on your knees. What good have the peaceful tactics of non- violence and civil disobedience done. Not much. What good did the Warsaw Ghetto uprising do. What good did it do when some Jews fought back against the Nazi's, not much, but it was the right thing to do. They say it is better for victims to fight back otherwise they will be severely affected emotionally. For example a rape victim is better off fighting her attacker than submitting. Just like it is better for the occupied to resist than submit to their occupier.
Alaska Progressive demonstrates progressivism by advocating for the rocketing of villages and suicide bombings as resistance techniques on -- wait for it -- psychological grounds, because it makes the perpetrators (those who don't, you know, actually blow up) feel better. Well done.

Actually, AP, you've completely missed my point, which was that civil disobedience is doomed to fail as long as the naked terrorism tactics are part of the picture. And to your point:

"There could be a thousand Gandhis in Palestine and no one in America would know, because our media has a blackout on all things just. "

I wasn't talking about the effect of Palestinian civil disobedience on Americans, but on Israelis. But I also think you underestimate the awareness Americans have of what goes on over there (after all, you know about it, don't you?). The fact is, a significant swath of the many Americans who are strongly supportive of Israel against the Palestinians believe themselves to be at war with Islam -- an impression the Palestinians themselves reinforce with every attempted suicide bombing.

@markinjapan: your opening appeal to UN condemnations of Israel enthusiastically joined by the likes of North Korea, Iran, Syria, Libya, Myanmar, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc. as a useful measure of Israel's moral standing rather undermines your credibility.
DL - I don't advocate rocketing villages or suicide bombings. but you seem to advocate bulldozing houses, dropping bombs from fighter jets, killing civilians with tanks, stealing land by being backed by a well armed military while the Palestinians are supposed to just take it. I don't think so. If Palestine had tanks and fighter jets they would be justified in using them. Unfortunately they don't so they have to take more extreme measures. Israel has a right to defend itself, but that doesn't mean using force when other defensive measures have not been used. Namely ending the occupation and collective punishment of Palestine. Shit doesn't happen in a vacuum.

You didn't address my comments on Jewish resistance against the Nazi's. Did they not have a right to resist. Are you condemning the Jews for resisting. They should have just non-violently protested as they got sent to the gas chambers. Is that what you are saying?

I think the non-violent protests are doomed to fail as long as too many Americans remain ignorant of what is going on. Our government and media want it that way. That is why the coverage is so one sided against Palestine. You give to much credit to Americans. I am talking about the large majority of American Assholes who blindly followed our government to war against Iraq because of non existent WMD and wrongly thought there were ties to Al Qaeda. Americans are too busy watching American Idol and spending their way into debt to know what the fuck is going on. Americans like to talk about how outraged they are about suicide bombers, but if some country occupied America we would use whatever force necessary to rid our country of the occupiers. Double standards are the American way.

The effect of non-violent protests on Israelis is minimal because Israel is made up of a bunch of zionists who don't care about the plight of the Palestinians. They just want to steal their land.

As far as the UN comment to Markinjapan, the U.S. and Israel are usually joined by only a hand full of countries not condemning Israel while the rest of the world along with those you mention do condemn Israel. The U.S often keeps company with countries such as Iran, Somali and Burma when it comes to things like not signing land mine treaties or treaties protecting the rights of children. Israel has no moral high ground and either does the U.S.
Looking through mr. lieberman's history here, he has never posted a blog post, and his comments are riddled with lies and misrepresentations. This is a key way that israel promotes its agenda via hasbara. I will not engage your fabrications further.
@markinjapan: "Looking through mr. lieberman's history here, he has never posted a blog post"

I've been posting to my own OS blog for over a year, so this

"and his comments are riddled with lies and misrepresentations."

is rather ironic coming from a deliberate liar such as yourself.

"I will not engage your fabrications further."

Since you haven't actually engaged in the first place, I don't see how this constitutes an announcement worth making.

@Alaska Progressive: "but you seem to advocate bulldozing houses, dropping bombs from fighter jets, killing civilians with tanks, stealing land by being backed by a well armed military while the Palestinians are supposed to just take it. "

You have no evidence that I advocate any such thing. On the other hand, you are clearly ready to speak from both sides of your mouth, to wit:

"I don't advocate rocketing villages or suicide bombings" -- and yet -- "If Palestine had tanks and fighter jets they would be justified in using them. Unfortunately they don't so they have to take more extreme measures. " Um, since those "extreme measures" consist of "rocketing villages and suicide bombings," it seems to me pretty clear that you are indeed advocating these tactics. Or did you have other "extreme measures" in mind for which you are prepared to offer a defense?

"You didn't address my comments on Jewish resistance against the Nazi's."

You're right, I didn't. Now I will: the Jews of Warsaw in the Spring of 1943 conducted what limited resistance they could directly against the uniformed Nazi military. To suggest any equivalence between this and the rocketing of villages and the bombing of civilian buses is a species of rank moral idiocy.

"The effect of non-violent protests on Israelis is minimal because Israel is made up of a bunch of zionists who don't care about the plight of the Palestinians. They just want to steal their land."

Ah, so you're not bigoted toward Jews per se -- just the50% of the world Jewish population that lives in Israel. How progressive of you.
DL - The Israeli State is racist and bigoted. The very nature of a Jewish only state is racist. They treat Arabs like shit. It is based on Zionism and the use of force to steal Palestinian land. So yes, I have a big problem with Israel and the majority of its citizens who support these policies. I have no problem with Jews. I have a problem with Israel and Zionists. There is a difference.

As far as the justification of Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians, no I do not advocate this at all. However, if we look at who has suffered more civilian deaths or had more children killed, the ratio is something like 10 times more Palestinians than Israelis. Since 2000, 124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis (ifamericansknew.org) and this doesn't include the more than 300 Palestinian children killed by Israel in Operation Cast Lead.

The Palestinians have primitive rockets with no guidance system that often fall harmlessly into empty fields. They don't have the ability to target anyone, as opposed to Israelis who have the most high tech weaponry available courtesy of the USA and still slaughter thousands of Palestinian children and civilians not to mention the wounded as well as the starvation imposed on them. Palestinian have rocks, Israel has tanks.

It is not talking out of both sides of my mouth to say I do not advocate killing civilians or suicide bombing and rocketing villages and understanding that Palestinians are justified in using force against their occupiers. The onus to stop the violence is on Israel. If they truly want peace, they could have it by ending the occupation and collective punishment, and allowing a right of return for Palestinian refugees.

Why, if Israel has the moral high ground, do they kill so many civilians? They have specifically targeted civilians as documented in the Goldstone report. Why do they continue to steal Palestinian land? Why do they continue to occupy Palestinians and use collective punishment against its captive population? Please answer this for me. Please provide justification for their continued crimes.

How progressive of you to support Israel and its crimes against humanity. Did you also support white South Africans during Apartheid?
@Alaska Progressive: "The Israeli State is racist and bigoted. The very nature of a Jewish only state is racist. "

Do you have the same objection to, say, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia ... ? This is just a random sampling of states that have come into existence -- after the founding of Israel -- on explicitly ethnocentric grounds. And, in fact, all of them are far purer expressions of the ethnically homogeneous nation-state than Israel has ever been.

"They treat Arabs like shit. "

*Arabs* treat Arab like shit. Their track record with Africans isn't so impressive, either, for that matter. What activist steps have you taken on those fronts?

"It is not talking out of both sides of my mouth to say I do not advocate killing civilians or suicide bombing and rocketing villages and understanding that Palestinians are justified in using force against their occupiers."

Actually, it *is* talking out of both sides of your mouth. Here you've managed the trick in a single sentence. There's not much distance at all between saying behavior X is "justified" and advocating behavior X -- about the width of a couple of upper incisors, I'd say.

"Why, if Israel has the moral high ground, do they kill so many civilians? They have specifically targeted civilians as documented in the Goldstone report. Why do they continue to steal Palestinian land? Why do they continue to occupy Palestinians and use collective punishment against its captive population? Please answer this for me. Please provide justification for their continued crimes. "

Did you even read my post? I made no claim that Israel has the moral high ground. What I argued was that the Palestinian cause is ill-served by the tactics of its leadership. I made no claim that the cause itself had no merit. Maybe you should try confronting the argument I did make instead of the one you wish I'd made.

The Palestinians have just and valid claims to make on the Israelis, but if it's not clear by now that a strategy consisting of random acts of violence against non-combatants isn't going to get those claims much of a hearing, I don't know when it will be. Maybe you're familiar with that definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? Then again, maybe not.

It's also perfectly valid to question the wisdom of American financial and diplomatic support to Israel. And maybe a strategy of backing the Israelis into a corner and encouraging them to circle the wagons even more than they already have will make things better for the Palestinians -- eventually. If it does, though, I suspect it will only be after things get much worse than they already are. So as far as I can see, the position you're advocating (which includes, by the way, a contemptuous dismissal of the practice of civil disobedience that seems strange in a thread sparked by a report on the Rachel Corrie trial) just condemns Palestinians to, at best, more of the same for the foreseeable future.
lieberman's continues to prove that he is tone deaf and unwilling to even listen to another viewpoint. If he can make a statement like this:

"if it's not clear by now that a strategy consisting of random acts of violence against non-combatants"

after the website ifamericansonlyknew was posted TWICE in this thread, than either he is too intellectually lazy to look at it, or he doesn't understand the concept of the word "fact."

Actually, the more he says, the more clear it becomes that he willfully and deceitfully will distort and/or distract to try and make his bogus claims soun reasonable.

Classic hasbara.
@markinjapan: "after the website ifamericansonlyknew was posted TWICE in this thread, than either he is too intellectually lazy to look at it, or he doesn't understand the concept of the word 'fact.'"

If you have an argument to make, then make it. I'm not responsible for doing your homework for you.
The arguments have been made repeatedly by many in this thread - You are a tone deaf mouthpiece of hasbara.

A shandeh un a charpeh.
"DL - The Israeli State is racist and bigoted. The very nature of a Jewish only state is racist. "

Its not Jewish only state idiot. All religions are practiced in Israel, and the Bahai's have their world headquarters in Haifa.

Israel does have a state religion, then again so does England, and the Queen is the head of state and Defender of the Faith.


You're an idiot.

2nd, the UN created Israel to be a homeland for Jews. It also created a Palestine, but the arabs rejected that.




"They treat Arabs like shit."

Arab Israelis among the best educated arabs in the Middle east and have much better health care then they would receive in neighboring arab states. Sure, there are disaprities, just as there are in the US between black and white. However, on a comparative basis, the Gap between Jew and Arab in Israel is smaller than it is between Arab and Xtian in Europe.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Arab ISraelis also serve in the IDF, the Bedouins and Druse serve in high numbers.


" It is based on Zionism and the use of force to steal Palestinian land."

Zionism is simply the desire to return to Israel. What is or isn't Palestinian land is a question that needs to be settled.


"So yes, I have a big problem with Israel and the majority of its citizens who support these policies. "

Your biggest problem is ignorance.


"I have no problem with Jews. I have a problem with Israel and Zionists. There is a difference. "

"They say Zionists, but they mean Jews"
----- Martin Luther King

You fool nobody Alaska non-Progressive.
"Why, if Israel has the moral high ground, do they kill so many civilians? They have specifically targeted civilians as documented in the Goldstone report. "

The Goldstone report is a joke. Even Goldstone admits that nothing in the report would hold up in court of law.

Dershowitz fisked it for all its worth here:
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=167069
Settling aside the legality of bulldozing the home, if the IDF is going to bulldoze the site it has a legal obligation to clear the area of civilians--residents and protesters--and secure the perimeter before it begins its work. To those who commented that this is a war zone and that the IDF can do whatever it wants, where is the clear and present danger presented by an empty house?
Alaska non-progressive writes:

"How progressive of you to support Israel and its crimes against humanity. Did you also support white South Africans during Apartheid?"

Funny you should bring that up. You have no problem citing an Apartheid judge like Goldstone. Goldstone was appointed to the bench by none other than all around good guy P.W. Botha
Don writes: "Settling aside the legality of bulldozing the home, if the IDF is going to bulldoze the site it has a legal obligation to clear the area of civilians--residents and protesters--and secure the perimeter before it begins its work."

The IDF did clear everybody out. Corries wasn't a child, she was an adult and put herself, while being egged on by the ISM, in terrible jeopardy.


" To those who commented that this is a war zone and that the IDF can do whatever it wants, where is the clear and present danger presented by an empty house?"

I don't claim the IDF can do whatever it wants, but neither can the protestors and islamo-fascists sympathizers do whatever they want either.

The policy of knocking down the homes of terrorists does have a salutary effect on terror, to the point when the Pals know their kid has gone rogue they tell the IDF. The IDF doesn't choose homes at random.

It is interesting that the far left (I'm not saying DOn is making that comparison) compares the knocking down of homes with the blowing up pizza parlors. A guess a *house* = equals a few Jews is their equation.