Judy, thanks for this interesting story on the current developments with Gaza! I would say that expert PR crisis management is not a strong skill set of the Israeli government.

This is getting old and annoying; yet the show must go on I guess.

They aren't embarrassing the Israelis the Israelis are embarrassing themselves by using the same foolish tactics over and over again. The more they repeat this in a peaceful way the more obvious that this is an occupation that is trying to starve undesirable people out. they continue to ignore the fact that they're suppressing mainly poor people that weren't responsible for the past anti-Semitism that the Jews were victims of. Full circle from vict5im to victimizer.

Bet none of these "activists" give a rip about the murder of the Israeli family a few months ago. Bet they don't give a rip either about missiles fired into Israel from Palestinian territory. Bet they also don't give a rip about the anti-Semitism that is routinely displayed on Palestinian TV.

Bet they also don't give a rip about the horrible treatment of Palestinians by Palestinians. (Why are these people still in refugee camps? Why haven't they managed to create a state? Why are they so obsessed with Israel, and it ain't going anywhere, that they can't improve the lives of their citizens? And why do "activists", and apparently you, claim the moral high ground by supporting some people who agree with Hitler and murder Jews just for being Jews? )

If the Palestinians want peace and a state, they can have it "yesterday" by accepting Israel's right to exist and by ceasing their terror. It really IS that simple.

I commend to all of you Dennis Prager's video on the Israel-Palestine issue.

It's odd that more of the reporting on these protests in the big media doesn't mention just how deplorable conditions have become in Gaza. The people in the territories have always been treated harshly, more like prisoners than neighbors. Now they're being throttled by Israel.
rate

Barbara,
Thanks for making the argument for me. Doesn't everything you say apply to the Israelis and their supporters? Sure, there are always plenty of good reasons to show contempt to other people. You never have to look very far - it's usually enough to look at their governments. Because their leaders are terrible, the people of Gaza should just surrender, it seems. Using that logic, we Americans might as well give up right now, considering how many people hate us because of our government. The challenge is to search for reasons to respect others, while realizing that you're going to have to deal with them anyway. Want to give it a try? Or how well is your method working?

A really good piece, and always interesting to me how Israel is defended by so many individuals (and heavily tax payer supported by us). Having spent many years of my early life in apartheid South Africa, it should come as no shock to people to know that the rhetoric and Big Brother behavior of Israel is virtually identical to those tactics utilized in aparteid South Africa. It may also be of interest to people to know that many officials and politicians in Israel are transplants from apartheid South Africa. Did they transfer their apartheid ideologies from one nation to another? It would appear so. That there is even argument or debate about the treatment of Palestinians by Israel appalls me. Long before President Carter declared Israel to be practicing apartheid, I was voicing this objection. Our own hypocrisy is mired in the fact that we support Israel by financial and weaponry means. Until this ends, we'll never experience dialogue or anything other than the hatred directed at us by the Muslim world. Unless and until Israel becomes demonized and is made to be the pariah of apartheid that worked so well in that country to end it, we'll never see progress and conditions for the Palestinians improve. A tragedy that Americans never hysterically protested and demanded the sanctions against Israel that worked so well in apartheid South Africa. What does this mean? Racism on a different level perhaps? The treatment of the Palestinians has for decades been compared with the Nazi's treatment of Jews and others. And this is just a sad fact.

I would be the first to say that if Israel and the Palestinians don't reach a modus vivendi, a lot of people on both sides will die someday. There is plenty of blame to go around for that. Antagonizing people is such a situation can be effective pressure, or, it can someday trigger something really, really bad. Time will tell, although thanks for that post.

This item from FlashDot:

"According to a report by the Associated Press, protesters have been stopped in their tracks after Facebook aided Israel in cracking down on the group of activists from the UK, France, and Belgium who planned their event using the popular social networking site. Facebook allowed government agents to track the activists activities and then create a black-list of people who participated in the planning of the protests. The black-listed group was then forwarded to airlines with instructions to prevent the activists from boarding air flights to Israel. Over 200 activists were prevented from flying after being added to the airlines terrorism watch list, according the the AP report. Was Julian Assange correct, when he warned that Facebook was a giant, 'appalling spy machine'?"

It seems somehow, I really have no idea how, Israel has a good deal of the world by the balls. The extension of its totalitarian control to Greece in locking up the flotilla, to various other countries (and notably the USA) in quashing protests over their brutality towards the Gaza inhabitants seems somehow surreal considering the size of the country and how openly they are violating all basic civil decency in their activities. I am seriously wondering why a good deal of the world seems so obviously under the thumb of these oppressors masquerading as representing all of the Jews of the world. It seems like something out of science fiction.

You wrote: "Barbara,
Thanks for making the argument for me. Doesn't everything you say apply to the Israelis and their supporters?"

Yes, but, you fail to note that Israelis are not breaking into private homes to simply murder babies in their beds. That they do not TARGET civilians. You fail to see the difference, as Larry Elder puts it, between those who are fighting a fire and those who started it.

You wrote: " Sure, there are always plenty of good reasons to show contempt to other people. You never have to look very far - it's usually enough to look at their governments. Because their leaders are terrible, the people of Gaza should just surrender, it seems."

I don't know who you are addressing this to, for it has nothing to do with what I wrote. Projection on your part perhaps?

And I didn't say Gaza should surrender. I said, and you fail to understand it, that if the Palestinians accepted Israel and renounced terror, they'd have peace tomorrow. Or do you actually think that Israel would say, "Ya know, you accept us, you've renounced terror, but we're gonna keep a state of war going anyway because it is working so well for us."?

You wrote: " Using that logic, we Americans might as well give up right now, considering how many people hate us because of our government."

I have no idea what you're talking about. I doubt you do either. I am saying that ISRAEL is hated and that no one on this "air flotilla" gives a rip. I'm not saying that Palestinians are hated. In fact, now that you've raised the topic, I think their terror and anti-Semitism gets a pass on the Left. (That soft bigotry of low expectations deal at work. "Know what I'm sayin"?) I do think Israel is hated on the Left. I do think it is hated BY many Palestinians and, I fear that is mainly hated because it is full of Jews.

I am saying that none of these people on this "mission" give a rip, I'd wager, about any of the things that happen to Israel. They don't care about the terror that is committed against Israel.

You wrote: "The challenge is to search for reasons to respect others, while realizing that you're going to have to deal with them anyway. Want to give it a try? Or how well is your method working?"

I'd think that swell IF the Palestinians were willing to do that. I, and you didn't catch this I guess, pointed out that they promote hatred and anti-Semitism on their TV programmes, teach it in their schools and that THEY show no respect. People that want you dead are usually not the best with which to negotiate.

And, my friend, YOUR WAY, the "let's sing and hold hands" way, ain't working either.

The Palestinians need to dump their Nazi-like leaders, stop the propaganda, renounce terror and accept Israel and, actually they'd have peace "tomorrow'.

And some of your readers who compare Israel to the Nazis need a history lesson. BTW, such comparisons trivialize the murder of 11 million people.

Judy, it ain't "my" method and, by the way, it hasn't been tried.

GO FOR IT. Let's encourage the Palestinians to accept Israel's right to exist, disown the Nazi-like propaganda in their schools and on their TV and denounce terrorism.

I'd wager the method would work. Why are ya'all so stuck with yesterday's failed methods?

The puerile naive fantasy that all the Palestinians have to do is offer their balls on a platter to the Israeli government and the suppressed regard for humane decency that is boiling to erupt in every Israeli soul to embrace their fellow Semites will erupt in love and kisses would fit well into a Marx Brothers comedy if it did not cover the vicious brutalities so evident in Israeli policy.

See: http://www.plands.org/speechs/010.html

and be informed of the history of the long term plans of the Zionists to evacuate the Palestinians and take over their lands well before the establishment of Israel as a nation.

And if you're saying that Israel should accept that it is hated and try to make peace anyway, in case you missed it, they have. That would be over and over and over and over. They LEFT Gaza. What did they get? They got terror. They LEFT Lebanon. What did they get? More terror. And I suspect that if the Muslim Brotherhood, a Nazi-loving group, gets enough control in Egypt, the Israelis can expect a renewal of terror from that side as well.

Left Gaza? Come off it. I cannot believe you are that stupid. Evacuated the Jews so that Gaza could freely prosper as an independent and free area? We do read the news.

What concerns me as someone of Jewish ancestry is that the Israelis will be successful at claiming they speak for all Jews. For the outright and obvious viciousness of Israel in its treatment of the Palestinians in the same way the USA performed its genocide on the native Americans to grab their territory will descend on all Jews everywhere and smear the whole of Jewish history of scholarship and feeling of decency for all of humanity with the filth of their policies. And when the retribution will come it will hit all Jews equally whatever their basic decency and that frightens me. And it is building, and it will come.

An exchange of opinion is one thing, but Jan Sand offering the following statement in support of his argument boggles the mind: "and be informed of the history of the long term plans of the Zionists to evacuate the Palestinians and take over their lands well before the establishment of Israel as a nation."

Two falshoods reside in that claim. Pre-WWII Dr. Chaim Weizmann and the Zionist leasership advocated no such 'plan', did not draw up any such 'plan'. That part of Mr. Sand's statement is simply false. The second error is a result of Mr. Sand and most in the West being taken in by sleight of hand performed by the Arabs who lived in Palestine. 'Palestine' was simply the modern designation of the lands west of the Jordan, south from the Lebanon to Gaza under the British Mandate from the early 1920s to 1948. The Arabs who lived there did not call themselve 'Palestinians'. In fact, the Jews, Christians, and Arabs of Palestine ALL considered 'Palestine' their home. Palestine was a place, not a people. The Palestine Post is the former name of the Jerusalem Post. In WWII the Palestine brigade was manned by Jews, who considered 'Palestine' home. In 1939 the Chamberlain government accepted a White Paper calling for a one-state solution to be addressed in May 1944. The Arabs in Palestine outnumbered Jews by two-to-one. A one-state sloution would insure the oppression of the Palestine Jews by the Arabs (who had been calling for the expulsion of the Jews for 10 years); Churchill nixed the White Paper in 1944. The UN took over the Mandate in 1947, and proposed a two-state solution. The Arabs refused, and three Arab armies attacked the new state of Israel the day after it was declared. Not until much later did the Arabs declare that those Arabs who were born in Palestine during the Mandate (and their offspring) would henceforth be known as 'Palestinians'. The 'Palestinians are not a 'nation' or a 'people', in the sense of, say, the Iroquoise or the Welsh. They are a political construct. Palestinian Jews never plotted an expulsion of their Arab neighbors; those Arabs and Christians who chose to remain in Israel after 1948 became Israeli citizens. From, literally, day one of its existence Israel's only interest is self-preservation. Those here on both sides of the question who debate the matter should get their facts right.

The Attlee government, by the way, between 1945 and 1947 refused visas to more than 100,000 European Jews who sought to emmigrate to Palestine. That was to appease the Arabs, but more to the point, it shows how much 'clout' the Zionists had, to wit, none. Zionist plan to expel the Arabs? No such plan existed, and even had it, it would have been a pipe dream.

Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, whose parents fled persecution in Nazi Germany in the 1930s, minces no words in telling the real story of Zionism's crimes against the Palestinians:
It is the horrific story of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, a crime against humanity that Israel has wanted to deny and cause the world to forget. Retrieving it from oblivion is incumbent upon us; it is the very first step we must take if we ever want reconciliation to take a chance, and peace to take root, in the torn land of Palestine and Israel.
In The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, Pappé explains and documents that the true goal of the founders of Zionism had always been to create a majority Jewish state, emptied as much as possible of the native Palestinian population. He meticulously (and painfully) reconstructs the story of how Zionist leaders, over many decades, carefully laid the groundwork for this expulsion and how they intiated their plan in 1948 when the British finally decided to leave.
The same Western governments that have been quick to denounce ethnic cleansing in Darfur or Bosnia and Kosovo, writes Pappé, have failed to recognize that the same awful crime also happened to the Palestinians sixty years ago and continues today.
Myth and reality__Israel's official version of the story of 1948 claims that Jewish settlers in Palestine never intended to expel their Palestinian Arab neighbors; that Zionist leaders were willing to accept UN resolution 181 of November 1947, which called for the partition of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state, but that it was the Palestinians who rejected that plan; and that the Palestinians became refugees when they "voluntarily" fled their homes to make room for the Arab armies that invaded Palestine in May 1948 to carry out what they called a "second Holocaust" against Jews.
Palestinian historians such as Walid Khalidi and Salim Tamari have repeatedly documented the crimes Israel committed in 1948 and afterwards, using historic records as well as the testimonies of Palestinian refugees. For his own research, Pappé decided to debunk the Israeli myths by relying almost exclusively on declassified Israeli military archives and the memoirs of Israel's "founding fathers."
These sources leave no doubt that, in the decades before 1948, the leaders of Zionism concocted a premeditated plan to expel the native Palestinian population. Pappé details how these Israeli "heroes" executed the plan in the period from December 1947 to March 1949 through the use of massacres, rapes, demolition of villages, and forced expulsion of the native population. In doing so, he manages to vindicate and corroborate the story that the Palestinians have been trying to get out to the Western world for the past sixty years.
Pappé has belonged to the school of historical revisionists pioneered by the Israeli historian Benny Morris in the late 1980s with The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1947-1949. In that book, Morris also researched declassified Israeli military archives and found that the Zionist leadership and militias committed certain crimes during the war of 1948 that led to Palestinian expulsion and flight. Morris maintained that these crimes were not the result of any advance plan of expulsion, but rather the result of the dynamics of the conflict-much the same as other bad things that happen in all wars.
The "transfer" plan__Looking at the same documents Morris used, however, Pappé concluded that Morris selectively used data and ignored many events that point starkly to a conscious plan of expulsion. He goes on to argue that the founders of Zionism-from Theodore Herzl to David Ben-Gurion-had always planned to expel the native Palestinian population as a prerequisite for creating an exclusive Jewish state in Palestine.
For example, in 1937 Ben-Gurion told the Jewish Agency Executive, the organization charged with procuring land for Jewish settlements in Palestine, "I am for compulsory transfer; I don't see anything immoral in it." Ten years later, Ben Gurion maintained his opposition to sharing Palestine with the Arabs by rejecting the UN partition plan because he believed it didn't allocate at least the majority of Palestine to the Jewish state.
Pappé argues that the partition plan was, from the beginning, unfair to the Palestinians because they still made up two-thirds of the population in 1947, while the UN allocated only 42 percent of the land to them. Meanwhile, the UN allocated 56 percent of Palestine to foreign Jewish colonizers who only made up a third of the population. Despite this injustice to the native population, the founding father of Israel actually insisted on getting more and more land. In a speech delivered to his own Mapai Party on December 3, 1947, Ben-Gurion made his aims clear:
There are 40 percent non-Jews in the areas allocated to the Jewish state. This composition is not a solid basis for a Jewish state. Only a state with 80 percent Jews is a viable state.
Zionist leaders believed that it was not possible to achieve a Jewish majority in the country simply through immigration, since most Jews fleeing Nazi Germany's Holocaust wanted to head West, not to Palestine. Therefore, Pappé writes, they concluded that there was only one way to achieve this goal of a majority Jewish state on the majority of the land of historic Palestine-the ethnic cleansing of the natives.
Preparing for ethnic cleansing__Since the early 1930s, these founding fathers worked hard to prepare for a majority Jewish state with very few or no Arabs. First, they successfully strengthened Jewish economic, social, military, and political institutions that could become the basis of the new state. They also took advantage of British openness to Jewish immigration during the British colonial mandate period of 1917-48. In addition, they worked to weaken the Arab political leadership by fighting alongside British forces to crush most of the Palestinian political and military infrastructure during the Arab revolt of 1936-39. At the end of the Second World War, they launched a relentless campaign of terrorist attacks against British interests in Palestine to drive the British out. _They also authorized a committee of Jewish historians and Arabists (a term that refers to specialists in Arabic culture) to compile a detailed, secret map of every Arab town and village in Palestine. They recorded the location and topography of the villages, the degree of land fertility, and availability of water, the number of inhabitants and the names of all adult males, the number of guards and weapons, the names of individuals who took part in or sympathized with the 1936 revolt, and even recorded a description of the Mukhtar's (mayor's) living quarters.
Leaders such as Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, and Moshe Allon met for years on a biweekly basis in the "Red House" in Tel Aviv as a group called The Consultancy. They drew and revised a sophisticated plan to carry out the "transfer" of the Palestinians at an opportune time in order to secure a Jewish majority in Palestine. In the third updated version of that plan (compiled at the end of the 1930s and referred to as Plan C or gimel in Hebrew), these leaders agreed on the necessity of carrying out the following steps:
o Killing the Palestinian political leadership;_o Killing Palestinian inciters and financial supporters;_o Damaging Palestinian transportation;_o Damaging Palestinian water wells, mills, etc.;_o Attacking Palestinian clubs, coffee houses, meeting places, etc.
Within a few months, the same "founding fathers" drew up the final version of the plan, now named Plan D, or dalet in Hebrew. These leaders ordered their militias and gangs to start implementing Plan D only hours after the UN issued resolution 181 in November 1947. The long nightmare for the Palestinians would only get worse. Zionist militias began to attack and expel villagers with or without provocation inside lands allocated to either the Jewish or Arab state.
Qisarya was the first village to be expelled in its entirety, on 15 February 1948. The expulsion took only a few hours and was carried out so systematically that the Jewish troops were able to evacuate and destroy another four villages on the same day, all under the watchful eyes of British troops stationed in police stations nearby.
The people of the village of Sa'sa were among the early victims. On the night of February 15, 1948, troops from Palmach (which had the largest Zionist militias) "took the main street of the village and systematically blew up one house after another while families were still sleeping inside." Moshe Kalman, the Jewish officer in charge of the operation later recalled, rather poetically, "In the end, the sky prised open. We left behind 35 demolished houses (a third of the village) and 60-80 dead bodies (quite a few of them were children)."
Declassified Israeli military archives confirm that the Zionist militias carried out at least thirty-seven large-scale massacres in that period. Some of the worst massacres and rape cases took place in villages such as Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948, where one survivor, Fahim Zaydan, described what Jewish troops did:
They took us one after the other; shot an old man and when one of his daughters cried, she was shot too. Then they called my brother Muhammad, and shot him in front of us, and when my mother yelled, bending over him-carrying my little sister Hudra in her hands, still breastfeeding her, they shot her too.
The news about the fate of the villagers in Deir Yassin spread like wildfire across Palestine, with Jewish troops cruising through other villages promising the villagers the same fate if they didn't leave. And though more recent accurate accounts of the number of those killed in Deir Yassin suggest a figure of 170 men, women, and children, Zionist propaganda broadcast over loudspeakers in the weeks that followed the massacre claimed that they actually killed over 300, in order to elevate the panic among Arabs.
On October 28, 1948, Palmach troops committed another massacre in the village of Dawaymah, described by Pappé as more brutal than the massacre in Deir Yassin. In just a few hours, all houses were blown up and 455 people were executed, including 170 women and children. The remaining 6,000 inhabitants-who included 4,000 refugees expelled earlier that year from other villages-were forcibly expelled. According to Israeli archives, "The Jewish troops who took part in the massacre also reported horrific scenes: babies whose skulls were cracked open, women raped or burned alive in houses, and men stabbed to death."
In all those villages that were attacked, the map compiled earlier by the Arabists proved to be extremely useful. It gave the Jewish troops complete understanding of the best way to attack those villages. And with the help of paid informants, it allowed them to pick out and immediately execute all potential resisters.
By the end of the war, Zionist troops had destroyed more than 420 Palestinian villages and turned their inhabitants into refugees. The same ill fate that befell the Palestinian countryside also befell the Arab population in cities-both Arab or mixed. The campaign against the Palestinian cities was also as relentless and brutal as that against the villages.
On the first day of Passover, April 21, 1948, Jewish troops began Operation Scissors (later renamed Operation Cleansing the Leaven or Bi'ur Hametz in Hebrew) to cleanse the mixed sea-port city of Haifa in the north of its fifty thousand Arab inhabitants. The troops attacked by rolling barrel bombs from the hills onto Arab streets and using heavy artillery while loudspeakers threatened the Palestinians to leave or else. Thousands of Palestinians fled to the port, attempting to get on boats to leave, but even there, Jewish troops continued to shoot, leading to more panic with parents trampling their own children. Many drowned when overloaded fishing boats capsized. This all happened under the nose of the British forces who were still stationed in the city and didn't fulfill an earlier promise to protect the city's Palestinian inhabitants.
Another example of what Pappé calls the urbicide, (killing of cities) of Arab Palestine is the attacks on the two cities of Acre and Baysan. On May 6, 1948, Jewish troops laid siege with intensive bombardment. Loudspeakers shouted everywhere: "Surrender or commit suicide. We will destroy to the last man."
According to British doctors in the city's Lebanese Red Cross hospital, the troops also caused an outbreak of typhoid and dysentery among Arabs and even British soldiers by poisoning the water supply with germs. These germs were developed by the Biological Warfare Science Corps program, set up by Ben-Gurion himself in the 1940s and ironically known by its acronym HEMED, which means "sweetness" in Hebrew. _Exhausted, starved, and fearing more death and destruction, the Palestinian inhabitants of Acre and Baysan finally surrendered in a matter of days only to be loaded by Jewish soldiers at gunpoint onto trucks that drove them to their future refugee camps. By the end of the war most major Palestinian cities had become totally or almost totally empty of their Arab inhabitants.
By the spring of 1949, Israel had conquered up to 80 percent of historic Palestine. It expelled 800,000 Palestinians, or 75 percent of the native Arab population, from their homeland, turning them into refugees and preventing them from coming back at the end of the war. The founding fathers had finally succeeded in securing a Jewish state with a Jewish majority. Some 660,000 Jews imposed military rule on 150,000 Arabs who dug in and didn't flee. The rest of the Palestinians were dispersed as refugees in the remaining 20 percent of their own country or in neighboring Arab states-made to live as refugees for the following sixty years. Today, they number over six million.
Setting the record straight__Pappé makes a couple of critical points. First, he explains that the Arab resistance to the Zionist efforts of ethnic cleansing was actually quite weak. While Ben-Gurion, in public speeches, delivered fiery public warnings against a "second Holocaust," he expressed utter confidence in private meetings that the nascent state of Israel would crush all Arab armies and resisters.
This confidence was based on his knowledge that Jewish troops outnumbered and out-gunned all the Arab armies combined. In addition, the Soviet Union allowed Czechoslovakia to supply the Jewish side with new tanks and air power while Britain formed an embargo on arms sales to the Arabs.
Pappé shows that the majority of the Palestinians, especially villagers, never fully comprehended the gravity of the Zionist threat in 1948. They had no idea that the Zionist project meant not to exploit them but to expel them. Indeed, in the early months of 1948, many were going on with their lives, even planning future harvests.
Second, Pappé demonstrated that Benny Morris was wrong to claim that the expulsion started after the Arab armies entered Palestine on May 15, 1948. He uses the same archives that Morris looked at to show massacres and expulsions beginning and spreading as early as December 1947.
The price: The future__Like all Israelis who dare to tell the true story of what happened, Pappé was ostracized. He received death threats and was forced out of his job as a distinguished senior lecturer at the University of Haifa last summer. Citing an atmosphere of hate and bigotry, he decided to accept a job at Exeter University in England.
There, he continues to argue that Israel must admit its historic crime in order to begin the process of reconciliation. He also argues that the state of Israel is racist to the core and must be democratized and purged of hate. The first step towards democratization is eliminating the Jewish character of the state, allowing all Palestinian refugees to return, and establishing total equality between Arabs and Jews in Palestine.
He is full of hope that this future is possible through the Palestinian struggle for national liberation. Pappé likens the resistance to Palestine's olive trees, a national symbol of pride. Israelis keep trying to destroy them by planting pine trees over them, but the olive trees keep growing back.

The source for my post is at:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pappe_Ilan/EthnCleansPales_bookreview.html

Mr Sand,

First, in the realm of the neither here nor there because it didn't happen, but if the Attlee government approved the visas of those 100,000 European Jews who wanted to go to Palestine NOT to the West, the nascent Israeli state would have been populated prox 75-25, Jews to non-Jews.

But that's not what got my attention about your post. I'm curious: When did you write those 194 lines and 2659 words, 1o pages worth, double-spaced? If you wrote them in the 14 minutes between my post on the subject and your response, I will eat my hat live on OS. If you wrote them in the five hours between Barbara J's last post and your post, I'll take my hat off to you, but will not eat it. If you wrote it from memory without need to consult the numerous sources your cite, I'll take two hats off to you, maybe eat one. So, pray tell, when did you write that? It's impressive (not that I agree, mind you).

Mr. Sand,
I'm gonna say this as diplomatically as possible. when I posted my question as to how and when you wrote a 2659 word post in so short a time, your explanation was not up on OS Maybe the times here are the time zones of origin, maybe our posts crossed in the mail. Regardless, you waited almost an hour to post your source. It should have been including IN your post. I submit that had I not raised the question, you would not have, that is, you posted in its entirety the work of another without sourcing it, leaving readers here to conclude, with reason, that you wrote that terrific piece. There's a name for that.

"Pappé argues that the partition plan was, from the beginning, unfair to the Palestinians because they still made up two-thirds of the population in 1947, while the UN allocated only 42 percent of the land to them. Meanwhile, the UN allocated 56 percent of Palestine to foreign Jewish colonizers who only made up a third of the population."

This is a deceitful statement.
Look at this map of the 1947 Partition Plan by the UN Special Commission on Palestine. (http://www.mideastweb.org/un_palestine_partition_detail_map_sept_1947.htm)
The green areas are the potential Israeli lands and the red the Arab lands. It does look like there is more green than red but then look at the largest bulk of the lower half. It is the Negev desert. Uninhabited and virtually uninhabitable. The only large city there, Bethlehem, was then scooped out and added to the proposed Arab lands.

So while the Israeli lands may have been larger in percentage, much of that part was desert and useless.

This is, unfortunately, typical intellectual dishonesty.

Why is recognizing the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state 'offer (ing) their balls on a platter to the Israeli government? The Palestinian charters say that no Jew can even live in the Palestinian State, let alone be a citizen. When tasked on this Jan Sand says he hates discrimination of all sorts, yet he refuses to say that the Palestinian groups have any need to do anything. His attitude is that they are the holy victims and cannot be blamed for anything.

What intellectual dishonesty.

@ the traveler; you are correct, it is intellectual dishonesty, but in defense of Mr. Sand, he did not write that screed, but simply cut and pasted another author's work without attribution. OH, that's intellectual dishonesty, too!

The velocity of my reply seems an odd criticism and a peculiar way to deny the facts that are clear and undeniable. The attribution is directly under the original post so I never claimed anything about originality. What I posted was history, however anyone squirms to deny it.

I in no way approve of radical anti-Jewish sentiment among the Arabs on the basis of race alone nor do I deny it exists. But the Israeli claims of clean hands is something Jews with any sense of decency should examine very clearly and most carefully. The claims of a fair democracy that Israel so loudly and frequently insists upon cannot stand up to the obvious facts and that the founders of the state of Israel behaved extremely badly and with malicious intent is merely what happened. The death of innocents caused by both Arabs and Jews is not anything to be either denied or approved in any way. But the Arabs have real cause to be furious and the Israelis have real crimes against humanity that are currently ongoing that they must answer for. The violence of war is inevitably a very dirty business but underhanded motivations are best acknowledged and brought out into the open and dealt with. I accept that there is much in Islam I find totally repulsive to my standards and that of the west in general. But the whining of Israel over historical crimes against the Jewish people which are real and also completely frightful does not, in any way, justify crimes against the original inhabitants if the area.

The internet provides easy and quick access to many of the facts of the history and there s nothing reprehensible in bringing them out into the open.

Mr. Sand,
your attribution came 56 minutes--a fill hour--after your post. The attribution should have been IN your post, or followed a few minutes later when you realized, ooppps, I just passed off 2700 words of another as my own, better attribute the source. But you did not. One hour. That's a big, big error, and now you're dodging it with more flim-flammery. I'll chalk your HUGE error to a mere episode of forgetfullness--but just this once.

I wrote the original reply in the middle of the night when I woke up and the attribute on a second awakening. Your criticism of my lack of attribution appeared under the attribution so obviously you must have seen it and chose to ignore it to give vent to your frustration about the presented facts. It was a rather clumsy attempt at character assassination but then, as in our previous encounters, ad hominem is the prime tool used by defenders of Israel to attempt to elude the facts of Israeli history and something you seem to particularly enjoy.
I cannot tell you how terribly relieved I am that I am now excused for your inattention to my attribution.

OK now Mr. Sand, NOTE the timeline. You obviously have not. NOW you're turning it back on me. Second awakening? Pulease. Middle of the night? At 11:52 a.m? AFTER I posted my 11:49a.m. comment? Middle of WHAT night? Indonesia's? You cut and pasted someone's work and failed to attribute it for an hour, during which time I called you on it. Middle of the night awakening...? If only. You, sir, stole another's work. Instead of saying you forgot to attribute--which we all do, forget--you're turning it around on me. Sorry. The time log here refutes you even better than I can.

Fascinating. With your other cuckoo concepts you evidently treasure that of the flat Earth. The Earth is a sphere and both day and night exist simultaneously on different parts. I do not inhabit your basement or even your attic. It seems you have a good deal of reading up on cosmology to do as well.

You're exposed, I need add nothing more. I do indeed enjoy reading cosmology, have for many years, have several dozen books, have discussed same with Richarad Dawkins and Carl Sagan. Perhaps you and I can chat about that someday. I'll chalk up your citation omission to middle of the night forgetfulness. Be well. But CITE.

I gave you the facts. We live on different parts of the Earth. Your snarl at my lack of attribution is published under my attribution. I'm sorry for you. Alzheimer's can be quite distressing and leave the sufferer very confused. Sit back. Relax. Review carefully our discussion. Perhaps clarity will occur. Good luck.

Geez, you just don't give up; I toss an olive branch, you snarl. I thought you lived im Chicago? where ever you live the TIME LOG shows a one hour gap between your "first awakening" and copying of another's work, and your "second awakening", when you--belatedly--confirm it. Period. Can't you just fooking say you 'forgot'? You were trying to impress us rubes, but ran into a rube who checks things out. And now, you're protesting too much.

Again Jan Sand,

"But the whining of Israel over historical crimes against the Jewish people which are real and also completely frightful does not, in any way, justify crimes against the original inhabitants if the area."

Israel isn't whining about history, they are asking that the Palestinian organizations recognize that Israel as a Jewish state has a right to exist as a path to peace - What is it about that that is so unreasonable?


Repeating an untruth many times does not make it true. The original occupants of that are were some number of Arabs and some number of Jews. Read the population figures about immigration during the 1900s to verify that. The fact that part of that land was named Judea is not a coincidence.


It is impossible for you, seemingly, to mention the numerous crimes that the Palestinians have perpetrated. Read today's Slate for an interview with a rocket maker in Gaza who talks about how more rockets are coming in lately and that the rocket attacks will increase- unguided rockets aimed at settlements. He mentions that it was easier when there were Israeli settlements in Gaza; they were easier targets.

One subject that you seem always to mention in this war is civilian casualties. According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the ratio of civilian deaths to combatant deaths of wars since the mid-twentieth century has been 10:1. Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, made an assessment of Israeli operations during the Gaza War, saying the civilian causalty ratio 1:1 and "was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare."

Interestingly enough he made this presentation to the UN Human Rights Council - but most of the seats were empty because the members walked out rather than hear his statement. http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=7536409

But my guess is that somehow Jan Sands will dismiss this also.

Mister, branches with thorns don't grow on olive trees. My attribute was published before your complaint on its absence. So swallow it, whatever the time lag. That's irrelevant.
This is a personal dispute way off the line of discussion. It is an imposition on the blogger. I will not reply any longer to idiotic bitching.

Fine. For the record: You are a plagiarist.

Whether you're exposed in one hour, one month, one year, makes no difference. Your obligation is to cite your source IN your work, which in this case was ENTIRELY another's. No wiggle room. you copied, and failed to cite, for more than an hour.

Now let's look ad ad hominem, the form you say my questioning of your plagiarism takes: You call Barbara J. 'stupid' and deride her comments; you assail me by saying I've got 'Alzheimer's', and you claim I'M making ad hominem statements? You, sir, have no shame. You are an intellectual fraud.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

The Gaza War, known as Operation Cast Lead (מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎) in Israel and as the Gaza Massacre (مجزرة غزة‎) in Gaza,[36][37][38] was a three-week bombing and invasion of the Gaza Strip by Israel, and hundreds of rocket attacks on south of Israel which started on December 27, 2008 with a surprise air strike from Israel.[39] Israel's stated aim was to stop rocket fire into Israel[40] and arms import into the Gaza strip.[41][42] Israeli forces attacked police stations and other Hamas government buildings in the opening assault, striking in the densely populated cities of Gaza, Khan Younis and Rafah.[43]
An Israeli ground invasion began on January 3. Infantry commanders were given an unprecedented level of access to coordinate with air, naval, artillery, intelligence, and combat engineering units during this second phase. Various new technologies and hardware were also introduced. On January 5, IDF forces began operating in the densely populated urban centers of Gaza. During the last week of the offensive (from 12 January), Israel mostly hit targets it had damaged previously and struck Palestinian rocket-launching units.[14] Hamas intensified its rocket and mortar attacks against Southern Israel, reaching the major cities of Beersheba and Ashdod for the first time during the conflict.[44][45][46] Israeli politicians ultimately decided against striking deeper within Gaza amidst concerns of higher casualties on both sides and increasing international criticism. The war ended on January 18, when Israel first declared a unilateral ceasefire, followed by Hamas' announcing a one-week ceasefire twelve hours later.[4][5] Israel completed its withdrawal on January 21.[47]
The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths.[48] In September 2009, a UN special mission, headed by Justice Richard Goldstone, produced a controversial report accusing both Palestinian militants and Israeli Defense Forces of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity, and recommended bringing those responsible to justice.[49] In January 2010, the Israeli government released a response criticizing the Goldstone Report and disputing its findings.[50] In 2011, Goldstone wrote that he no longer believed that Israel intentionally targeted civilians in Gaza.[51] The other authors of the report, Hina Jilani, Christine Chinkin and Desmond Travers, rejected Goldstone's reassessment.[52][53]
That this should be assessed as a 1:1 ratio of deaths is beyond sanity.

Source for the following: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/apr2011/gold-a06.shtml
UN investigator repudiates Gaza war findings under US and Israeli pressure
By Jean Shaoul
6 April 2011
The op-ed piece in Friday’s Washington Post by Judge Richard Goldstone presents an unedifying spectacle.
In it Goldstone absolves Israel of criminal intent during its murderous assault on Gaza in December 2008. His article repudiates his own critical 2009 report for the United Nation’s Human Rights Council that accused both Israel and Hamas of war crimes and “possibly crimes against humanity”.
His own explanation for his mea culpa is entirely unconvincing. His reversal can only be interpreted as a capitulation to the massive campaign of bullying and intimidation by Tel Aviv and Washington aimed at getting the report revoked.
Mark Toner, US State Department deputy spokesman, said that the Obama administration had never seen evidence that Israel had committed any war crimes or intentionally targeted civilians and welcomed Goldstone’s newly minted conclusion. He then expressed concern for what he called an “anti-Israeli bias in the Human Rights Council”.
Israel’s assault on Gaza, Operation Cast Lead, was waged against a largely unarmed and defenceless population. It killed 1,400 people, the majority of them civilians, including 400 women and children, injured at least 5,000 people, and destroyed 21,000 homes and much basic infrastructure, including water and sewerage treatment works. Such was the one-sided and criminal nature of the operation that Israel suffered only 13 deaths, of which several were by “friendly fire.”
Goldstone’s report 18 months ago had acknowledged this, saying that the war was “a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself and to force upon it an ever-increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability.”
He called for the UN Security Council to refer the case to the International Criminal Court (ICC) if Israel failed to conduct an independent investigation into the military’s conduct within six months. The report also called on countries that are signatories to the 1949 Geneva Conventions to use their “universal jurisdiction” to search for and prosecute those responsible for war crimes. Its conclusions were endorsed by the UN Human Rights Council by a majority of 25 to 6, with 11 countries absenting themselves or abstaining.
Now Goldstone, a former South African judge and chief prosecutor at the UN Yugoslavia and Rwanda Tribunals, has sought to justify his volte-face by saying, “We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the UN Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.”
New evidence from Israel “probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes,” he adds.
And what is the source of this new information? Israel had refused to cooperate with the UN investigation or allow its four-person delegation to enter the country saying its mandate was “one-sided”. Instead, internal Israeli inquiries that were anything but independent were held. They were conducted by low-ranking military officials, who refused to seek evidence from Gazan witnesses or examine their own commanders’ public statements.
The investigations ended in a whitewash. They found no widespread abuses and breaches of international law. Israel acknowledged that there had been “a very small number of incidents” where its soldiers had unintentionally killed dozens of Palestinian civilians in Gaza, but this was the result of “intelligence or operational errors”. While Israel said—months ago—that two senior officers might be charged as a result, it has done nothing. Two senior officers were disciplined for authorising an artillery attack using phosphorus bombs that set fire to a United Nations compound in Gaza City, but they retained their rank and pay, and were not prosecuted.
Goldstone praised Israel for carrying out these investigations, accepted their findings as good coin and drew the desired conclusion that Israel had no policy of intentionally targeting civilians.
This flatly contradicts Israel’s own statements. In October 2008, Gadi Eizencout, an IDF commander, explained Israel’s “Dahiyah doctrine”—the indiscriminate targeting of civilians and non-military sites—in an interview with the mass daily Yedioth Aharonoth.
Eizencout said, “What happened to the Dahiyah neighbourhood of Beirut in 2006 will happen to each village from which Israel is fired on. We will apply disproportionate force and inflict huge damage and destruction. In our mind, these are not civilian villages but army bases.… [T]he next war must be decided quickly, aggressively, and without seeking international approval.”
“This is not a recommendation, this is a plan and it has already been approved,” he continued.
Goldstone now depicts Hamas as the villain of the piece, writing that, unlike Israel, the Hamas government in Gaza “has done nothing.”
“That the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying— its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets,” he writes.
To equate the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel’s southern towns and cities, which have killed 13 people since 2000, with the illegal occupation and brutal oppression of a people for more than 40 years by one of the world’s most powerful armed forces is ludicrous.
Goldstone goes on to criticise the UN Human Rights Council for its anti-Israel bias, saying that he hoped that the report could “begin a new era of even-handedness at the UN Human Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted.”
“Something that has not been recognised often enough is the fact that our report marked the first time illegal acts of terrorism from Hamas were being investigated and condemned by the United Nations,” he adds.
Goldstone then calls on the UN’s Human Rights Council to condemn the recent stabbing attack at the West Bank settlement of Itamar.
His remarks could have been scripted by Israel’s premier, Binyamin Netanyahu.
With help from the White House, Netanyahu mounted an international campaign of bullying and intimidation to oppose Goldstone’s initial report and ensure that the Security Council—dominated by the US and the European powers that hold the power of veto—did not refer the case to the International Criminal Court. He also launched a major international offensive to stop other countries using or revoking their “universal jurisdiction” legislation to bring lawsuits against senior Israel politicians and military personnel for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s foreign minister, admitted in a television interview that Israel had exerted pressure on Goldstone behind the scenes. There are also reports that Goldstone found himself socially ostracised for his criticism of Israel, including being disinvited from his grandson’s bar mitzvah in South Africa.
One can only surmise that pressure from Washington was at least as sustained as that emanating from Israel.
Tel Aviv is now calling for the report to be formally revoked. This would require Goldstone to submit a formal request to the UN, the only forum with the authority to revoke the contents of the report.
As well as getting Israel off the hook in relation to its 2008-2009 assault on Gaza, Goldstone’s retraction gives a green light for Netanyahu to carry out any military action he chooses against defenceless civilians irrespective of international law, under the guise of fighting terrorism. It comes at a time when Israel is mounting provocations against the Palestinians in Gaza and making bellicose noises against Lebanon and Syria.

This is unfortunate, BadScot but I think you're sick.

Mr. sand; you wrote, in attempting to dodge the time log "We live on different parts of the Earth." No we do not. i'm in the Eastern Time Zone, and so are you, or perhaps Central. But, no, you did not awake in the middle of the night to post your stolen essay. You fessed to stealing up an hour later, that's all that counts (other than the original infraction).

Mr. Sands is not in the Eatern or Central time zones; he's in Finland.

Pardon me; there should be an "s" in Eastern.

Interesting post, Judie.

To generalize on the Israeli-Palestinian problems it might be worthwhile to compare the emotional-political situation of the USA and Israel. There are remarkable similarities. Both countries have overwhelmingly powerful military forces and devote a very large proportion of their national income to military maintenance and development. Because of the military hold on the economy both countries vitally need an enemy to justify this huge expenditure. The Israelis were very lucky to have the Palestinians since by continually oppressing and brutalizing them they have a made to order justification for the military expenditure. Beyond that, any totalitarian influences the Israelis have in controlling their own population are justified in baiting the Arab furies to keep the population in a paranoid state of extreme fear. Peace between the Arabs and the Israelis is what frightens the Israeli politicians since their political power depends upon maintaining the conflict.

This is the precise strategy of the government of the USA in keeping its military-industrial complex humming and using "security" to control any objection to this insane way of life. Whether or not the Bush administration had any part of the horror of the fall of the twin towers is not important. It was a wonderful gift to energizing the military industrial complex and keeping all that tax payer money flowing to the military and permitting the shredding of civilian constitutional rights in the name of national security. When the cold war collapsed with the demise of the USSR the US politicians were in a panic to maintain all that money going to the military. Al Qaeda came to their rescue and the endless wars continue.

Same as with Israel.

And for those of you for whom hatred of Israel is axiomatic, you might need a couple of facts:

One) Egypt too is part of the effort to stop ships bound for Gaza and search them for weapons and contraband.

Two) Israel searches such ships and it ALLOWS, yes, ALLOWS all regular goods through. It does not allow weapons and weapons-related goods through. (I know it is supposed to commit suicide as a nation, but it is NOT cooperating. Those Jews are really a pain in the neck.)

Three) These "activist" efforts do NOTHING to promote peace. Nothing. Point to one thing they have done to promote peace. Ya can't. They do promote the activists.

I commend again to all of you, Dennis Prager's video on the Mid-East and his columns.

Wait, I MISSED IT???? Jan Sand called me "stupid"???? Oh gee, was it on the 10th or the 11th? I've gotta note it in my calendar. I've been called nasty things a few times in my life, but, and I do keep weird, evil company, "stupid" is not usually one of them.

I'm THRILLED!

Thanks, Jan.

Finland? Doesn't matter. At least Mr. Sand is now attributing his sources, with vigor it would seem. Good. Intellectual theft is venal. But, again, he's now citing sources with a fury. Case closed. I've wasted too much time on this cad.

WAH, WAH, Mr. Sand only said he can't "believe" I'm that stupid. It's not the same thing at all.

I'm weepin in my coffee.

Jan, Israel isn't going anywhere. I mean as a nation. It IS here to stay. No nation was perfectly founded nor formed. That statement will come to include any future Palestinian state as well. Israel DID pull out of Gaza. If that was not sufficient for you, sorry, but you all scream, so to speak, for Israel to pull out, when it does you scream it is not enough. But surely a rational person, even if one hates Israel, which I suspect but don't KNOW you do, realizes that a nation will take some precautions against a neighbor that is determined to destroy it when letting that neighbor again control the lot next door.

As said, Israel is here to stay. It has been for a long time. The Palestinians need to get themselves some leaders who accept that, renounce terror, and work toward a real state for their people. But they can't do it, it is an impossibility in the real world, without accepting Israel and renouncing (and stopping) terror.

That's what the activists, in my view if they really loved the Palestinians, would be urging them to do.

I'm gonna go drool now and burn some books after I figure out how to strike a match.

Dear BadScot, if you missed it, I suggest to you something that you can find on my blog or "The Traveler's" that we wrote together about the killing of an Israeli family a few months ago.

"Finland? Doesn't matter."

Well, it seemed to matter when you were claiming Mr. Sand resides in the Eastern or Central time zones. I guess it's easy to make spurious claims about a person you're debating, especially when, if you're proven wrong, you can just gloss over it by saying your error "doesn't matter" anyway. Weak, my friend, very weak.

Oh, Nana, the only fooking fact that matters is that WHATEVER time zone Mr. Sand was in, he plagiarized another's work and did not fess up for an hour, or until I called him on it, whichever came first, and THAT doesn't matter. He's an intellectual thief: You gonna support him in that?

This is my quote, Barbara.
"Left Gaza? Come off it. I cannot believe you are that stupid. Evacuated the Jews so that Gaza could freely prosper as an independent and free area? We do read the news."

I said very plainly I didn't believe you were that stupid. I indicated you had some other agenda in indicating Gaza was now free of Jews so that it could proceed to act independently. You are very well aware that is not true. The oppressive isolation of Gaza is not devoted solely to military goods and you are not stupid, so there is some other motivation there in your refusal to acknowledge what the rest of the world is very aware of. Gaza is a prison. Of course there are no Jews there.
Your insistent reiteration of known untruths bears all the telltale marks of the Israeli propaganda network, the hasbara, run by Mossad. Do they pay you or is this purely volunteer work?

You really should not pay attention to BadScot. He seems off his rocker.

BadScot, look around. I'm sure you can find your reading glasses. My accreditation comes directly after my post and before you started your nonsensical ragging. You're merely silly.

No, you intellectual thief, I'm not 'off my rocker' (we're getting ad hominem again here). You are trying to deflect and avoid your mistake. See, I called it a mistake, your plagiarism. I'm trying to make nice here. As far as your calling Barbara J. stupid, well, you did, although you're splitting hairs now. 'Venal' about sums you up. This is my last comment. I'm sure you'll snake in one more of your own. If so, please cite your sources.

That wasn't an insult, BadScot, it was a generous diagnosis. Take care.

An eye-witness to the brutality of the Israeli search party can be found at http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/02/gaza-flotilla-raid-gunfire-ship-blood

There were no weapons aboard (if you discount that many of the older people may have had false teeth) and nevertheless the ships were not permitted to land in Gaza.

Jan, my first reaction to the "stupid" remark was based on a comment here. Then I read what you wrote and I noted you could not BELIEVE I was blah, blah, blah.

If you have an address for Mossad, please forward to me via PM. I haven't had a check from them in ages and I could use a little extra.

BadScot, I commend your fortitude, but then, you probably work for Mossad. If so, can you tell me what they're doing with my paycheck?

Jan, I didn't say there were weapons on board the "flotilla" ships. I did say the Israelis board them to assure that is so.

Judy when this sort of thing happens on your own blog, isn't it incumbent upon you to sort of moderate, or adjudicate ?

Forgive me, that's what I thought the form was. Possibly it all happened after you went to bed or to work.

BadScot at the outset of Jan's comment - the one you think he plagiarised - he says this :

"Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, whose parents fled persecution in Nazi Germany in the 1930s, minces no words in telling the real story of Zionism's crimes against the Palestinians:"

He then goes on. Now : did you not read that bit ?
What on earth would possess you to ignore that clear accreditation ? Do I really want to know ?
Houdini himself could not have done a better job of misdirection than you in this sad & sabotaged thread.

The world is a tough place, Barbara, and if Mossad isn't paying you, it certainly isn't because you are shirking their cause. I suggest you submit a resume with samples and I'm sure they will respect your earnest effort in their behalf. Money is somewhat hard to come by these days and with all that cash being dumped on Israel bu thenUSA which has an economy that is doing quite well without it there must be loads of it available for promoters of Israeli expansion.

BadScot was correct in that I did not immediately accredit the writer who was a book reviewer. But I remedied that when I realized the error and when BadScot kept denying my remedy he stepped off into fantasy. I know from previous contact he has an agenda on me and I'm sorry it distorts his vision. Nothing like a bit of excitement to keep the blood pumping.

Nope Jan, I said nothing in support of Israeli expansion.

Barbara,
I never said you openly did. But are you so inattentive as to not see that the whole direction of Israeli is about kicking out all the Palestinians and making it an exclusively Jewish state? The Israelis are scared silly about the high birth rate of the Arabs as compared to the Israelis and their masquerade of a democracy for Jews only is pretty apparent. Look at th illegal settlements. It's all about expansion.

Just as a matter of general information perhaps this ought to be on the table.

LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN:

September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:
The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.
The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.
The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.
The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators
In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,
Yasser Arafat

Well, Jan, it is not inattention on my part. I don't believe the whole intention of Israel is to kick out all Palestinians.

I DO think the Palestinians that desire a separate state need to, as I've said, accept Israel, and get themselves some leaders who do, for it is a fact of life at this point. Dealing with reality will serve them well. They also need to renounce terror and, thus, cease acts of terror.

Well Arafat ain't here no more, so I think the Palestinians need to, if they believe this, put in place leaders who do. (And I don't accept Arafat's word on this either, but no matter.)

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The actions taken by both sides over happened over ^) sixty years ago. Few if any of the people, on either side, are still alive.

What is a fact that Jan refuses to acknowledge is that thousands of rockers are being fired at the people of Iseral. People are killing families as they sleep in their bed, then have a party about it. Every country has a right , dare I say obligation, to defend it's population.

If the true goal was "a home land " it could happen tomorrow.


Forgive my typing, my tablet is not so hot on basic in put.

The actions taken by both sides over happened over ^) sixty years ago. Few if any of the people, on either side, are still alive.

What is a fact that Jan refuses to acknowledge is that thousands of rockers are being fired at the people of Iseral. People are killing families as they sleep in their bed, then have a party about it. Every country has a right , dare I say obligation, to defend it's population.

If the true goal was "a home land " it could happen tomorrow.


Forgive my typing, my tablet is not so hot on basic in put.

Here's a couple of antisemites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlFR541Uoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfqCv-a4QSM

What an idiot this Barbara. "They need to renounce terror'

Stealing land, bulldozing homes, cutting off food, water and medicines; kicking and abusing and humiliating people at check points; and when they resist with crude boomerang katushas they are murdered by the thousands, THAT IS TERROR, you moron.

Have you read the fatwas of the Rabbis saying it's okay to kill non-Jews and it's forbidden in the Torah to rent your homes to Arabs and the edicts about Jewish only roads. You are truly disgusting in your support of a murderous regime.

Taking revenge from people in the middle east for crimes committed in Europe THAT IS TERROR.

You have this white/caucasian Jew from Russia come and bulldoze a Palestinian home and tell the guy he doesn't belong there. THAT IS TERROR.

Who gives a tinkers fart how much time it took Sand to post. Answer his points.

I have never really understood how all the Jews in the world can claim descent from the middle east, Abraham of Iraq( aka Babylon ). By their own admission they describe themselves as white/caucasian. So which one is it? That or middle eastern/semitic?
I had one guy write to me saying " we look white but we are not really white". I mean to what extent do we go to steal land?
So in two millenia your color changed from brown/wheatish to white? The Africans have been here close to half a millenia and I don't see their color changing; they still look quite black to me.
So how come the "diaspora" Jews all turned white, changing their ethnicity?
You actually see these white settler Jews from Russia or Palm Beach yelling at the Palestinian " You don't belong here". Now maybe if they offered them their villas in Palm Beach in exchange they would gladly swap, I'm sure.

All western ( Non-Muslim ) sources:

Using white phosphorus on Palestinian kids:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/03/israel-palestinians-west-bank-canister
Bulldozing of villages:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/29/ruined-palestinian-village-lifta-development
Use of Palestinian boys as human shields in the words of a IDF soldier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgJeAmBTYkw&feature=related
Sir Gerald Kaufman, prominent Jewish Member of the British Parliament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&feature=related

On average one Palestinian is killed every two days.

I see the Palestinians as Hitler's victims too. Well he was the Fuhrer but most Europeans were quite happy to oblige him. In fact the one guy who saved the Jews was I believe the Moroccon King, who when asked to load them onto the wagons, said he had no Jews living there, thereby saving 4000 of them.

As soon as Hitler's gone, finally after 2000 years they discover their roots. The whole thing is so absurd and tragic because it has led to 63 years of bloodshed on a scale of 1 to 100 odds against the Palestinians.

I think 10 of Israel's leaders have come from Russia. What exactly were they doing there? It's like the Palestinians claiming descent from the Vikings.

My solution to the region's problems are quite simple. We reinstate the Ottoman Empire. Turks aren't Arab and they aren't Shia. They can't be influenced by the Arabs or the Iranians and they have a pretty good record when it comes to getting along with various religious groups. They also like democracy and their military is pro-secular.

Turkey should extend influence through Syria, Lebanon, Israel and into Gaza. This would also give the Turks some nice beachfront property and increase their bargaining power with the Arabs, as they will control maritime trade through such a move.

As neutral, third party arbiters in the regions squables, the mighty Turks will put all sides in their rightful places.

The Turks' only weakness is a tendency to smash ethnic groups with strong independent streaks, like Armenians, Kurds and others. But who knows? This could help them in their dealings with problems in Palestine?

I think they have a much better track record in terms of controlling this area than the British, the Americans, the Israelis or the Crusaders ever did.

I'm all for extending the power of local great powers and giving them increased authority in certain areas.

And even if Turkey doesn't go down as far as Israel, they should still annex Syria and Lebanon.

If the EU wont let them in, Turkey must find its place in the sun through the Middle East. And this means increasing her holdings. Currently, the only great powers in the region equal to her would be Egypt and Iran (economics, history, culture, demographic sustainability). Israel has a powerful military, but they just don't have the staying power in terms of population.

Turkey could be key to the whole process, because they could exert pressure sufficient to release the creative freedoms of all the various non-Arab minority groups in that region, along the coast of the Western Med.

I agree with what the Kaiser said 100 years ago. Ankara is key to the whole region.

@ RWooG: You see we cannot undo all of history's injustices. What you are proposing is clearly not a solution. The days of colonialism I thought were over and the sooner the Israelis realize that the better. Because demographics don't favour them either. They are trying all kinds of tricks, but it's like kicking the problem down the road.
We keep hearing Israel ain't going anywhere. That's very true. We are not talking Israel going anywhere. What the whole world wants is regime change and an end to Zionism based on a racist doctrine that based on their religion, i.e judaism, Jews from the four corners of the world can go live there and kick the local Palestinians out.
I believe they've now a law saying that if a Palestinian stays away for over 6 months he loses his right to return.

two points.

1) I note that no one has replied to what the British Colonel said about the Gaza War -

2) "I have never really understood how all the Jews in the world can claim descent from the middle east, Abraham of Iraq( aka Babylon ). By their own admission they describe themselves as white/caucasian. So which one is it? That or middle eastern/semitic?
I had one guy write to me saying " we look white but we are not really white". I mean to what extent do we go to steal land?
So in two millenia your color changed from brown/wheatish to white? The Africans have been here close to half a millenia and I don't see their color changing; they still look quite black to me.
So how come the "diaspora" Jews all turned white, changing their ethnicity?
You actually see these white settler Jews from Russia or Palm Beach yelling at the Palestinian " You don't belong here". Now maybe if they offered them their villas in Palm Beach in exchange they would gladly swap, I'm sure."

So this isn't anti-Jew? Right?

No. Not right. It's anti-Israeli. The two are not at all the same.

@ traveler: Dunno what a load of drivel you are on about fella!
So 13 Israelis were killed of which 10 were IDF and 3 civilians. The Palestinians lost 13 or was it 1400 and you are telling us there was parity. I think you are far too crazy. Take your meds before you start posting.

It's an old worn-out trick calling ever Palestinian murdered in cold blood a militant or a terrorist and if you had listened to the speech of Sir Gerald Kaufman which I had posted, you wouldn't have gone totally bonkers. Sir Gerald Kaufman, prominent Jewish Member of the British Parliament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&feature=related

Gerald Kaufman knows far more than you and he is an honourable man Sir.

PS Remember that family wiped out by a torpedo while picnicing on the beach and the lone surviving daughter screaming. They too were terrorists.
I think the problem here is you have NO SHAME left man.

Salmandar:

One, I am not the one who raised the issue of how much time it took Sand to post and, frankly, don't care.

Two, When the Israelis start sending suicide bombers into Palestinian cafes, going into homes and murdering babies as they sleep, TARGETING innocents, and bulldozing the homes of just anyone (as opposed to doing that to the homes of the families of terrorists) I'll get back to you.

I am okay with you calling me an idiot. I'll take it as a compliment and consider the source.

And, by the way, Sand doesn't answer MY points.

But, I'll address you. Israel is here to stay. Do you accept that?

Do you think that the majority of Palestinians accept that?

Do you think that there can be a two-state solution if they DON'T (the Palestinians) accept that?

Do you think this "activism" (the airborne "flotilla") has any effect on peace?

Back to you.

Sal. The Zionist movement started well before Hitler.

And your deal about "the color" of Jews is important for what reason?

BTW, you might want to do some research about the admiration of Hitler in the Arab world. It is rather distressing.

You can also find some interesting stuff on Arab support for same during the war.

Happy hunting.

Anti Israel is not anti Jew? I understand where people are coming from on this, I think, but it is odd, queer, strange, bizarre and all of that that the ONE nation comprised of Jews - and in a world full of evil and murder and genocide - is singled out over and over and over as the worst place on earth by, for the most part (and to its shame) the Left. It does cause some, and I lean this way myself, to think there is a little teeny, tiny bit of old anti-Semitism working here.

As an idiot, I need someone to explain why "parity" is so important? If the Germans lost more dead in WWII than the Allies, does that place them in the right or somehow make them the victims?

Okay, gotta go and read my comics now.

This Moron want to point out to "Sal" that, no, I don't think bulldozing homes is terror. It may be wrong, stupid, mean, and such, but I don't take it as terror.

Also, I don't take the founding of Israel as "taking revenge" on people in the Middle East for something done in Europe.

Sal, "From Time Immemorial" is worth a read. Give it a try if you find the time. Good luck.

Question. Israel should do what exactly in terms of these "ships" (or planes or cars or whatever) coming into Gaza? There are people there, lots, who want Israel destroyed. So what should Israel do? Should they just look the other way (as, by the way, Egypt does not) and hope there are no weapons on board these vehicles? Should they just cross their fingers? What exactly should they do in the face of this reality? Leave out the larger politics and just indicate what they should do.

Question Two: What are the activists hoping to accomplish? Do they think their actions will bring that region closer to peace? If so, how?

As someone of Jewish ancestry which seems to qualify, at least in Israel, someone as being Jewish to say my violent disgust at dressing Israelis in IDF uniforms and sending them out to shoot Arab kids throwing stones, to send official helicopters into Gaza to blast entire families for vague suspicions of terrorists amongst other frightful actions does not become equal to a bomb strapped individual blasting Jewish innocents is anti-Semitic is to be so violently prejudiced as to verge on psychosis. Killing innocents is not to be condoned under any circumstances and doing so under government auspices and trying to pretend it was justifiable defense only makes the act even more despicable.
There is a long tradition amongst Jews over the centuries of scholarship and general human compassion and decency and on that basis I am tempted to say the Israelis are anti-Semitic (And the frequent racial contempt openly expressed by Israelis for Arabs strengthens this) and I want no part of them.
More and more in the modern military in Vietnam, in West Asia, and notably in the Middle East it is being demonstrated that the brute technological military power on which Israel is capitalizing is becoming more and more helpless. It does not portend well for Israel's future.

I do not wish Israel evil since it's Jewish culture and technological expertise is a major prize for all humanity if properly utilized. And I in no way sympathize with the ignorant brutalities demonstrated in much of Islamic culture. But the current path of activities is one of vicious and stupid force to no good end and seems to be headed inexorably for horrendous tragedy for all concerned.

@ Barbara: Typical obfuscation and lies perpetuated for 63 plus years, if you say it started before Hitler. So why did you wait for 2000 years to pull out your title deeds?
When you start on a flawed premise it's going to crumble sometime and I am sure demographics will take care of it one day.

RELGION ( ANY RELIGION IN THE WORLD ) DOES NOT ENTITLE IT"S ADHERENTS/FOLLOWERS TO MOVE/IMMIGRATE TO WHERE THEIR RELIGION ORIGINATED.

Jewish only state, something like Aryan only state?

I am sorry but one has to be really really evil to underplay the hundreds of years of pogroms/inquisitions culminating in the holocaust of Jews by pointing to the odd contact between Arabs and Hitler's Germany. So what exactly are you saying the Palestinians were behind these atrocities?

I can point to lots of Brits including the Duke of Windsor who were very pro-Nazis. Here's one British aristocrat: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3146225.stm

Figures only matter to you when talking of the holocaust; you throw a fit if one were to say 5.9999 million, but when it comes to the Palestinians, figures don't matter.

The color matters because you people don't belong there. The land titles were given to you NOT by God but by Lord Balfour. How long will you continue to perpetuate this lie that the Icelandic and the Ethiopian Jews are all Abraham's progeny. Now if the Palestinians and Iraqis were to say they were genetic cousins of Jesus and Abraham ( anglicised names ), it might make some sense to me, but for these racist white Jews from Russia to be saying to the Palestinian GOD gave me this land. The hell he did. Go back to frickin Siberia. If your compatriot Russians discriminate against you it's not a Palestinian problem

Listen to what Dr Hajo Meyer the Auschwitz survivor says on You tube and read " The invention of the jewish people" by Professor of history at Tel Aviv University, Shlomo Sand.

ALL THE JEWS IN THE WORLD DO NOT BELONG TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND HAVE NO RIGHT TO GO OCCUPY LANDS AND KILL PEOPLE IN THE PROCESS.

You are proud of riding on the back of the Americans; for how long?

Tomorrow if the balance of power shifts for whatever reasons, could be economic, what will happen then? Maybe Russia, the EU and the UN combine. Doesn't it embarras you to see the world on one side and just you and the Americans holding hands?

Of course you will never, because of your hatred, acknowledge or point to the fact that compared to Europe and the West, Jews lived in relative peace and prosperity in Muslim lands ( especially in Moorish Spain ), till the creation of Israel. There were no holocausts in the Arb/Muslim world.

Mckenzie King, the Canadian Prime Minister thought Hitler was a saviour a Joan of Arc. His immigration Director Blair when asked "how many Jews should be allowed to immigrate?" said "NONE IS TOO MANY".

If you are interested I can send you all the links.

When you move to another place/country, you don't go there as an occupier, a colonialist. You have proven that you cannot and will not live in peace and will continue to occupy more land and build more settlements and then have the Americans say " Well ground realities have changed" Isn't it really really disgusting and shameful?

As for recognition you don't recognise a country with no borders, i.e ever changing borders, based on the next theft.

@ Barbara: Typical obfuscation and lies perpetuated for 63 plus years, if you say it started before Hitler. So why did you wait for 2000 years to pull out your title deeds?
When you start on a flawed premise it's going to crumble sometime and I am sure demographics will take care of it one day.

RELGION ( ANY RELIGION IN THE WORLD ) DOES NOT ENTITLE IT"S ADHERENTS/FOLLOWERS TO MOVE/IMMIGRATE TO WHERE THEIR RELIGION ORIGINATED.

Jewish only state, something like Aryan only state?

I am sorry but one has to be really really evil to underplay the hundreds of years of pogroms/inquisitions culminating in the holocaust of Jews by pointing to the odd contact between Arabs and Hitler's Germany. So what exactly are you saying the Palestinians were behind these atrocities?

I can point to lots of Brits including the Duke of Windsor who were very pro-Nazis. Here's one British aristocrat: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3146225.stm

Figures only matter to you when talking of the holocaust; you throw a fit if one were to say 5.9999 million, but when it comes to the Palestinians, figures don't matter.

The color matters because you people don't belong there. The land titles were given to you NOT by God but by Lord Balfour. How long will you continue to perpetuate this lie that the Icelandic and the Ethiopian Jews are all Abraham's progeny. Now if the Palestinians and Iraqis were to say they were genetic cousins of Jesus and Abraham ( anglicised names ), it might make some sense to me, but for these racist white Jews from Russia to be saying to the Palestinian GOD gave me this land. The hell he did. Go back to frickin Siberia. If your compatriot Russians discriminate against you it's not a Palestinian problem

Listen to what Dr Hajo Meyer the Auschwitz survivor says on You tube and read " The invention of the jewish people" by Professor of history at Tel Aviv University, Shlomo Sand.

ALL THE JEWS IN THE WORLD DO NOT BELONG TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND HAVE NO RIGHT TO GO OCCUPY LANDS AND KILL PEOPLE IN THE PROCESS.

You are proud of riding on the back of the Americans; for how long?

Tomorrow if the balance of power shifts for whatever reasons, could be economic, what will happen then? Maybe Russia, the EU and the UN combine. Doesn't it embarras you to see the world on one side and just you and the Americans holding hands?

Of course you will never, because of your hatred, acknowledge or point to the fact that compared to Europe and the West, Jews lived in relative peace and prosperity in Muslim lands ( especially in Moorish Spain ), till the creation of Israel. There were no holocausts in the Arb/Muslim world.

Mckenzie King, the Canadian Prime Minister thought Hitler was a saviour a Joan of Arc. His immigration Director Blair when asked "how many Jews should be allowed to immigrate?" said "NONE IS TOO MANY".

If you are interested I can send you all the links.

When you move to another place/country, you don't go there as an occupier, a colonialist. You have proven that you cannot and will not live in peace and will continue to occupy more land and build more settlements and then have the Americans say " Well ground realities have changed" Isn't it really really disgusting and shameful?

As for recognition you don't recognise a country with no borders, i.e ever changing borders, based on the next theft.

@ Barbara: Typical obfuscation and lies perpetuated for 63 plus years, if you say it started before Hitler. So why did you wait for 2000 years to pull out your title deeds?
When you start on a flawed premise it's going to crumble sometime and I am sure demographics will take care of it one day.

RELGION ( ANY RELIGION IN THE WORLD ) DOES NOT ENTITLE IT"S ADHERENTS/FOLLOWERS TO MOVE/IMMIGRATE TO WHERE THEIR RELIGION ORIGINATED.

Jewish only state, something like Aryan only state?

I am sorry but one has to be really really evil to underplay the hundreds of years of pogroms/inquisitions culminating in the holocaust of Jews by pointing to the odd contact between Arabs and Hitler's Germany. So what exactly are you saying the Palestinians were behind these atrocities?

I can point to lots of Brits including the Duke of Windsor who were very pro-Nazis. Here's one British aristocrat: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3146225.stm

Figures only matter to you when talking of the holocaust; you throw a fit if one were to say 5.9999 million, but when it comes to the Palestinians, figures don't matter.

The color matters because you people don't belong there. The land titles were given to you NOT by God but by Lord Balfour. How long will you continue to perpetuate this lie that the Icelandic and the Ethiopian Jews are all Abraham's progeny. Now if the Palestinians and Iraqis were to say they were genetic cousins of Jesus and Abraham ( anglicised names ), it might make some sense to me, but for these racist white Jews from Russia to be saying to the Palestinian GOD gave me this land. The hell he did. Go back to frickin Siberia. If your compatriot Russians discriminate against you it's not a Palestinian problem

Listen to what Dr Hajo Meyer the Auschwitz survivor says on You tube and read " The invention of the jewish people" by Professor of history at Tel Aviv University, Shlomo Sand.

ALL THE JEWS IN THE WORLD DO NOT BELONG TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND HAVE NO RIGHT TO GO OCCUPY LANDS AND KILL PEOPLE IN THE PROCESS.

You are proud of riding on the back of the Americans; for how long?

Tomorrow if the balance of power shifts for whatever reasons, could be economic, what will happen then? Maybe Russia, the EU and the UN combine. Doesn't it embarras you to see the world on one side and just you and the Americans holding hands?

Of course you will never, because of your hatred, acknowledge or point to the fact that compared to Europe and the West, Jews lived in relative peace and prosperity in Muslim lands ( especially in Moorish Spain ), till the creation of Israel. There were no holocausts in the Arb/Muslim world.

Mckenzie King, the Canadian Prime Minister thought Hitler was a saviour a Joan of Arc. His immigration Director Blair when asked "how many Jews should be allowed to immigrate?" said "NONE IS TOO MANY".

If you are interested I can send you all the links.

When you move to another place/country, you don't go there as an occupier, a colonialist. You have proven that you cannot and will not live in peace and will continue to occupy more land and build more settlements and then have the Americans say " Well ground realities have changed" Isn't it really really disgusting and shameful?

As for recognition you don't recognise a country with no borders, i.e ever changing borders, based on the next theft.

Sorry meant to post only once. Was a computer glitch.

Instead of these flotillas I think a million man march would be better. People from all over the world gather and go in to topple the regime. How many will the Israelis kill?
All 198 countries should be represented. With Rachel Corrie, the Americans were cool, but if there are thousands, it may not be easy for them to a give a wink and a nod.

@ Barb: Now I know you'll ignore all the substantive points and try and put a spin on it. Here's one more thing about color. If I went to China tomorrow and said this land belongs to me because Confucious said so or my DNA is linked to Kublai Khan, before giving me a good solid kick they might just show me the mirror. And say: Your eyes and color don't kinda match the profile.

So here we have this blonde Russian in the middle east saying blah blah blah. Unfortunately the only thing the Palestinians have is stones and they have run out of those as well.
Bulldozing homes is ok, eh? Now what if it was your home?

All the decent Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus should join hands and say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"

FDR met with Saudi King Abdul Aziz on Feb. 14, 1945 on the USS Quincy in the Red sea:
"The President asked His Majesty for his advice regarding the problem of Jewish refugees driven from their homes in Europe," according to the joint memorandum. "His majesty replied that in his opinion the Jews should return to live in the lands from which they were driven. The Jews whose homes were completely destroyed and who have no chance of livelihood in their homelands should be given living space in the Axis countries which oppressed them."

Roosevelt said Jews were reluctant to go back to Germany and nurtured a "sentimental" desire to go to Palestine. But the king brushed aside the argument that Europe's surviving Jews might be fearful of returning to their homes: Surely the allies were going to crush the Nazis, break them to the point where they would never again pose a threat, the king said — otherwise, what was the point of the war?

"Make the enemy and the oppressor pay; that is how we Arabs wage war," he said, according to Eddy's narrative. "Amends should be made by the criminal, not by the innocent bystander. What injury have Arabs done to the Jews of Europe? It is the 'Christian' Germans who stole their homes and lives. Let the Germans pay."

Sounds like a good argument to me.

The most he could get from Roosevelt was a promise that the president would “do nothing to assist the Jews against the Arabs and would make no move hostile to the Arab people.” The king taking this as a commitment from the United States and not just from Roosevelt personally, was furious to discover three years later that Harry Truman did not consider himself bound by it."

The reply to your "worth a read" Time immemorial has been given by a Jewish gentleman who is actually the son of holocaust survivors, by the name of Finklestein. That too is worth a read.

I know I know there were Jews living in the middle east long before the Muslims and Christians. Very true; BUT BUT they were middle eastern Jews; NOT and I repeat NOT your ancestors in Warsaw or Kiev or Moscow. And duh. judaism is the oldest so obviously there were Jews before the others.

Wow, 93 posts while I've been off-line and out of town! Thanks everybody for the lively discussion. All you have to do is MENTION these issues and already everybody judges your own personal standpoint (as if they had any idea ) and then tear into it themselves. I'll need the rest of the week just to read, let alone sift, all these responses. Somehow I've got this utopian notion that the more we discuss these issues, the closer we'll come to some sort of solution...

History rarely if ever responds to the inner drive of people for fairness and decency. It is moved by power and influence and greed and fear. Although there is much talk of Jews returning to their ancient homeland which was designated by their God to be permanently theirs this is a fairytale which tries to cover up the basic motivation of Zionism. It is fear. Hitler did not invent anti-semitism but he saw huge political advantage in empowering it to put himself in control. The Christians originally, like the Muslims today, saw great evil in the use of money to make money and were religiously forbidden long ago to charge interest for lending money. But the basis of the capitalist system is providing funds for enterprise out of excess money and charging interest for these loans. So the Christians more or less allocated this fundamental necessity of the economic system to the Jews who were for centuries excluded by the Christian Church from normal participation in society and pushed into ghettos to keep them apart from Christian life. But lending money is a fabulous business and many Jews made the most of this capability and did very well in this forbidden area. But money lenders, even unto the present time, are hated for their power since they hold an essential control of the economy and do no actual production of value but merely enable creative people to be productive and take what many consider an unfair cut of the riches produced. The rich evil Jew has become a mythical figure down through the ages and the Jews as a whole, rich and poor, have suffered unfair persecution incessantly for the power of money granted them by religion and Zionism was born to provide a place for Jews to seek refuge from this terrible unfair persecution. The nostalgic fable of the ancient Jewish nation was used by the Zionists to give mythic power to this drive of fear which is centuries old and is obviously quite real and its total insanity which reached its horrific peak under the Nazis.
Jews and Arabs had lived peacefully together for centuries although Islam is aggressively unfriendly in doctrine to all non-Muslims.
Before the establishment of Israel there were many Jewish settlements in Palestine and the relationships between Arabs and Jews were relatively friendly and nowhere near the vicious racial animosity that exists in both sectors today. But the dynamics of establishing Israel, which ironically has become something of an official Jewish ghetto in a highly unfriendly area of the Middle East, has capitalized on the Jewish fear of persecution by non-Jews and the politicians in power maintain their hold by exacerbating that fear and supplementing it by vicious aggrandizement of Jewish power over the relatively powerless original inhabitants.
The situation has gone far to far to demand the dissolution of Israel. The original Zionist aims have been far to successful and created far too much power to expect a mere holding of hands and singing "Kumbyah" to make this power vanish. Israel exists and will continue to exist until real force destroys it or good sense and basic human decency arrives to let each side of the conflict realize that they both are human beings and deserve decent human behavior and mutual respect for each other's values and necessities. If it comes to force, the destruction on both sides will be unimaginable horror. As unlikely as it seems, good sense must prevail.

@ Jan sand: Excellent analysis. Was just trying to get a better understanding. Having lived in Israel, would you say that most Ashkenzi Jews see their presence there due ethnic origins or the fact that it is the birthplace of judaism? When they say God gave them this land, I am assuming they mean to the Jews regardless of their race or ethnicity.
It's a scary picture. I wonder for how long it will be possible to live in the middle east surrounded by walls, with hostile neighbours all around. In Eygpt Mubarrak had kept a lid on those who were against any treaties with Israel. Democracy in the arab world (the arab spring ) might spell more trouble for Israel in view of popular anti-Israeli sentiment.
How do Israelis feel about living in the middle east surrounded by neighbours who don't accept their presence and do they feel that military strength, the nuclear arsenal and America's unwavering support will keep them safe till the end of time? Are they also worried about the changing demography?

Sorry, I lived in Israel during the six day war almost 50 years ago and I'm way out of date on current Israel. Even then, as I spoke neither Hebrew nor Arabic, I cannot really say much about the feelings of those days. People were somewhat different then and the Arabs and Israelis I knew then must have changed radically into the present as the underhanded dealings that occurred since have transformed attitudes.

If the Israelis and Arabs can't get along, an external power will move into the region and force them to get along. Oil and the Suez Canal are too important to be entrusted to regional anarchy.

The Chinese don't like this regional instability, nor do the Russians. America and the EU, the Turks don't like it.

Ideology aside, the region needs ORDER. End of story. I don't care who is right and who is wrong. I'm sick of this bullshit.

We need to send a Roman Legion into the area, decimate folks from both sides, and tell them to behave.

And the only reason this hasn't happened is b/c the British Empire controlled the region, then the Cold War divided it between US and Soviet interests. Now the US hegemony is ending and we have no idea how multipolarity will impact regional politics.

I think nobody in a multipolar world has anything to gain from anarchy here. All sides will force order, a just order or an unjust order. But order will come about.

Salmandar

First your misunderstanding.
I didn't say that there was parity in the deaths, I said that never in modern warfare have civilians suffered less than in the Gaza conflict. In typical 'wars' there are 10 civilian dead for every combatant death. In Gaza the ratio was 1:1 because the Israelis were as scrupulous as possible. Read more closely.

Statement by the British Commander who was an official observer:
""The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over two million leaflets and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties," he said.

"During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza," Kemp reminded the commission. "To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.""

Second, your statement " Jews lived in relative peace and prosperity in Muslim lands ( especially in Moorish Spain ), till the creation of Israel. There were no holocausts in the Arb/Muslim world" is totally incorrect.

Examples:

In Iraq, June 1941, the Mufti-inspired, pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali sparked rioting and a pogrom in Baghdad. Armed Iraqi mobs, with the complicity of the police and the army, murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000.

In Egypt in 1945, with the rise of Egyptian nationalism and the cultivation of anti-Western and anti-Jewish sentiment, riots erupted. In the violence, 10 Jews were killed, 350 injured, and a synagogue, a Jewish hospital, and an old-age home were burned down.

Syrian Jewry supported the aspirations of the Arab nationalists and Zionism, and Syrian Jews believed that the two parties could be reconciled and that the conflict in Palestine could be resolved. However, following Syrian independence from France in 1946, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

For the next decades, Syrian Jews were, in effect, hostages of a hostile regime. They could leave Syria only on the condition that they leave members of their family behind. Thus the community lived under siege, constantly under fearful surveillance of the secret police. This much was allowed due to an international effort to secure the human rights of the Jews, the changing world order, and the Syrian need for Western support; so the conditions of the Jews improved somewhat.

Syrian Jewry supported the aspirations of the Arab nationalists and Zionism, and Syrian Jews believed that the two parties could be reconciled and that the conflict in Palestine could be resolved. However, following Syrian independence from France in 1946, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

For the next decades, Syrian Jews were, in effect, hostages of a hostile regime. They could leave Syria only on the condition that they leave members of their family behind. Thus the community lived under siege, constantly under fearful surveillance of the secret police.

In Yemen, In Yemen from the seventh century on the Jewish populations suffered the severest possible interpretation of the Charter of Omar. For about 4 centuries, the Jews suffered under the fierce fanatical edict of the most intolerant Islamic sects. The Yemen Epistle by Rambam in which he commiserated with Yemen's Jewry and besought them to keep the faith, and in 1724 fanatical rulers ordered synagogues destroyed, and Jewish public prayers were forbidden. The Jews were exiled, many died from starvation and the survivors were ordered to settle in Mausa, but later, this order was annulled by a decree in 1781 due to the need of their skilled craftsmen. Jacob Sappir a Jerusalem writer describes Yemeni Jews in Yemen in 1886: "The Arab natives have always considered the Jew unclean, but his blood for them was not considered unclean. They lay claims to all his belongings, and if he is unwilling, they employ force...The Jews live outside the town in dark dwellings like prison cells or caves out of
fear...for the least offense, he is sentenced to outrageous fines, which he is quite unable to pay. In case of non-payment, he is put in chains and cruelly beaten every day. Before the punishment is inflicted, the Cadi[judge] addresses him in gentle tones and urges him to change his faith and obtain a share of all the glory of this world and of the world beyond. His refusal is again regarded as penal obstinacy. On the other hand, it is not open to the Jew to prosecute a Muslim, as the Muslim by right of law can dispose of the life and the property of the Jew, and it is only to be regarded as an act of magnanimity if the Jews are allowed to live. The Jew is not admissible as a witness, nor has his oath any validity.".

Danish-German explorer Garsten Neibuhr visited Yemen in 1762 described Jewish life in Yemen: "By day they work in their shops in San'a, but by night they must withdraw to their isolated dwellings, shortly before my arrival, 12 of the 14 synagogues of the Jews were torn down, and all their beautiful houses wrecked".

The Jews did not improve until the establishment of the French Protectorate in 1912, when they were given equality and religious autonomy. However, during World War II, when France was ruled by the anti-Semitic Vichy government, King Muhammed V prevented the deportation of Jews from Morocco. In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law that decreed that Jewish orphans under age 12 were to be forcibly converted to Islam.

After the Arab conquest of Tunisia in the 7th century, Jews lived under satisfactory conditions, despite discriminatory measures such as a poll tax. From 7th century Arab conquest down through the Almahdiyeen
atrocities, Tunisia fared little better than its neighbors. The complete expulsion of Jews from Kairouan near Tunis occurred after years of hardship, in the 13th century when Kairouan was anointed as a holy city of Islam. ~ In the 16th century, the "hated and despised" Jews of Tunis were periodically attacked by violence and they were subjected to "vehement anti-Jewish policy" during the various political struggles of the period. In 1869 Muslims butchered many Jews in the defenseless ghetto.

Conditions worsened during the Spanish invasions of 1535-1574, resulting in the flight of Jews from the coastal areas. The situation of the community improved once more under Ottoman rule. During this period, the community also split due to strong cultural differences between the Touransa (native Tunisians) and the Grana (those adhering to Spanish or Italian customs). Improvements in the condition of the community occurred during the reign of Ahmed Bey, which began in 1837. He and his successors implemented liberal legislation, and a large number of Jews rose to positions of political power during this reign. Under French rule, Jews were gradually emancipated. However, beginning in November 1940, when the country was ruled by the Vichy authorities, Jews were subject to anti-Semitic laws

In Palestine itself, in 1936, The year of 1936 the Mufti began what was to be a three year campaign of riots and massacres. It started in April when a group of Arab killed some Jews in the city of Haifa. The violence continued to spread as the Arab Higher Committee openly approved of the violence of the local Arab and began a systematic campaign to encourage more. After several riots and localized pogroms, by October 1936 over 300 people had been killed and 1,100 wounded.

So it is clear that Jews were a harassed minority in Arab countries and among the Arabs of Palestine because they had no country to speak for them.

I agree Rw a radical solution is required. Although I think a 'just' rather than an 'unjust' one may be better for the long-term. I don't see that happening in the near future, when the chief arbitrator keeps telling one party to the conflict; I love you with all my heart and to the other party; I hate you from the bottom of my heart.
The EU, Russia and the UN appeared to be on the same page recently, but Obama was and is powerless when it comes to Israel, because I think the entire Congress and Senate have sworn allegiance to Israel.

Jan Sand,

I notice that you will decry Palestinian acts but you will never say that Hamas or Fatah should actually do anything, while you constantly press for Israel to do everything that, in the past, has never led to peace.

Why won't you say that Hamas and Fatah should take even small steps for peace?

Until you look at both sides evenly with the same standards of behavior, rather than this unending blather, by your support you are as much an enemy of the Palestinians as you are of Israel.

Traveler, I wonder what it is the Palestinians should do to satisfy the rapacious ousting of Arabs from their homes and territories. There are repeated cries amongst some Israelis for Palestinian extermination. Would mass suicide satisfy you?

@ Traveller: I think you've obviously lost your marbles because of your hatred of Muslims/Arabs. You could have easily avoided all that research, because I did say "relative" peace and prosperity compared to the Christian West. I suppose that wasn't good enough for you. I mean you have to be really really pathetic; an apologist for the crimes and racism of Israel.

I was trying to figure out your inconsistencies; why you've started in the 40's for some countries and gone back a couple of centuries with Tunisia and Yemen. What was it? Did the Jews have a terible time in Moorish Spain as well? You couldn't find anything before the 40's? Now let me take a guess. The number of Jews let's say, killed in the Arab countries thru' the centuries was 4000; that's the number of Jews saved by the Moroccon King from being transported to the death camps. Now find me another 6 million for the holocaust; another hundreds of thousands in the Inquisition and other pogroms. When you've found those figures then get back to me, till then maybe you should keep your cakehole shut.

And don't give me that drivel about what the Arabs said and did. I live here not far from a Jewish gentleman, 88 years old who tells me with tears in his eyes to this day, how as a kid he was called by the Hotel Manager in Canada and told that his family would have to vacate the hotel because they found out they were Jews. He had to go tell his father and they had to leave. I am sure there are millions of such stories all over Europe and North America.

And this is why on another post another Israeli had this to say to me:

"My perspective is that I agree with you in regards to Christians being the ones who persecuted Jews, so you should know that they can NEVER go back to Europe. "

The prejudice that you speak of in the Arab world was NO WHERE compared to what you had to endure in the West. Now why do you find that hard to acknowledge?

Read also about the love of the Windsors for Hitler and enquire of all the Europeans why they were busy loading the wagons and go knock on every German and Polish door and ask them why their grandads were killing Jews. Then travel to Spain and start cursing Ferdinand and Isabella. When you've finished there then travel to the Arab countries; I bet you won't find many doors to knock on there.

Now for your benefit I am reproducing an article by Robert Fisk about the wartime Prime Minister of Canada and his thoughts on Hitler:
"He (Hitler) smiled very pleasantly and indeed had a sort of appealing and affectionate look in his eyes. My sizing up of the man as I sat and talked with him was that he is really one who truly loves his fellow man. His face is much more prepossessing than his pictures would give the impression of. It is not that of a fiery overstrained nature but of a calm, passive man deeply and thoughtfully in earnest ... His eyes impressed me most of all. There was a liquid quality about them which indicates keen perception and profound sympathy. Calm, composed and one could see how particularly humble folk would have come to have profound love for the man. As I talked with him I could not but think of Joan of Arc..."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-premier-who-thought-hitler--was-a-joan-of-arc-1998351.html

Now if these words were spoken by an Arab leader, I think Israel would have used them till eternity to malign them.

Once you've finished reading this listen to what Sir Gerald Kaufman has to say about the numbers killed in the Gaza conflict. This is a guy whose met every Israeli leader starting with Ben Gurion, so I am assuming he knows more than you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

And do you know more than this gentleman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlFR541Uoo

BTW traveller: I am not defending anything done by Muslims against the jews and I think they must be condemned, but let us not lose our sense of fairness and acknowledge that the bonds between Jews and Muslims were good for most of history and can in no way be compared to the brutalities and atrocities committed against them in Europe and the West, even if it requires a big heart to do that.

I dunno if we'll be hearing from Barb. You see it's so darn cold in Siberia. Now if they went across every winter to Israel for some beach time, like thousands of Russians who do fly across to Dubai, that would be fine. A win win for everyone; but not to occupy land and bulldoze homes for settlements. In fact I'd love to visit Israel, but the moment they'll see someone with my tan looks they'll take me for a Palestinian and take a pot shot.

Of course after taking a pot shot they'll say we are investigating and also add " see unlike the Palestinians, we didn't cheer after shooting the guy". Well thank you, that really helps.

@Jan Sand
"Traveler, I wonder what it is the Palestinians should do to satisfy the rapacious ousting of Arabs from their homes and territories. There are repeated cries amongst some Israelis for Palestinian extermination. Would mass suicide satisfy you?"

What they could do is 1) Publicly recognize the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish State and 2) Remove the constant references in their state-published literature to the destruction of Israel.
The unfortunate problem is that any Palestinian politician who does that is exposing himself to be murdered by other Palestinians.

@Salmandar - two things

If the Arabs loved the Jews prior to the existence of Israel, can you explain why they went to Hitler in the 30's and became his ally during WWII with the promise that they could eliminate all the Jews when Hitler won?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

Particularly interesting was when 500 Jewsih children had the opportunity to escape Hungary and the death camps, he agitated that they be sent to Poland or other occupied lands where they would be taken care of. He succeeded and the 500 children vanished up the chimneys.

Can you also explain the Arab Legions, who fought on the side of Hitler?

Oh, yes. You know your propaganda but you don't know your history.

One last question.
While I write under a username, I have links to my own website and my own name. I have no need to hide my identity.

Why is it, Salmandar, that you hide your identity?
Is it like Klan robes that only go on at night?

@ Traveller: So what happened you weren't able to find 7 million sent up the chimney by the Arabs?
You are truly a pathetic apologist for the crimes of a racist /colonialist enterprise.

You just won't reply to straight simple questions. How come you know more than the Aushwitz survivor and Kaufman?

Now why do you think I would have any interest in your website on which you most likely celebrate your hatefest against Arabs and try and prove Hitler and the Europeans who sent you up the chimnies were Palestinian.

And why exactly are you so interested in my identity. To send the Mossad over to attack me? Haven't they killed enough in the middle east?

@ Traveller: What's the "can you explain" BS?"

This is what I said: That question: Can you explain why? YOU should be asking of every single home in Europe and also in North America, where Jewhate was practised for centuries; where a ship was turned away ( The Voyage of the damned ) and where Jews were treated like dirt.

How long will you persist on putting the blame for the "chimney business" on the Arabs?

I am sorry but if shamelessness is your philosophy then there is no point in exchanging posts.

The Palestinians are just as much Hitler's victims as were the Jews; because the victims switched gear and became the oppressors.

Salmadar,

You made the statement that the Arabs and the Jews were cozy prior to the founding of Israel.
Now when I ask you to back that statement up, in the face of historic fact, you blather on about other things.
You are a bigot and a fanatic because you persist in a prejudice even when facts show you are wrong.

Salmandar - I pointed out only the fact, and it is a fact, that Zionism started well before Hitler.

take it or leave it.

I said nothing to indicate that other deaths (anywhere) of innocents do not bother me. That was your assumption, and it was wrong.

I am not one of "you people' as you so charmingly put it.

And I pointed out that the King of Jordan worked with Hitler to underscore what I see as a problem in the Arab world: the terrible anti-semitism that infects it.

Bye now. Goota go to my Hebrew lesson.

Sal babe, I wasn't underplaying the history of anti-Jew hatred in the world. I wasn't even addressing it. You had made a comment about Zionism and I simply pointed out when it started. I may be "evil" (and I have been told I look good in black), but not for the reasons you imply.

Traveler, thanks for your clarity.

@ Traveller: When I said come up with 6 or 7 million, you came up with another 500. And then you add, so and so Arab was pro-Hitler. Well goddammit every single European and North American were anti-Jew and couldn't give a tinkers fart that Jews were being massacred. This is why I even sent you a full report on what the Canadian Prime Minister at the time thought of jews and Hitler who he compared to 'Joan of Arc'. Dear oh dear!

I was in England when lots of Jews came over from Poland, etc and the first thing they did was hide their names and change to Anglo-saxon names. That was to avoid prejudice and hatred, even in England which was supposedly on the other side of Hitler.
For you to minimise that and compare it to the Arabs is the height of disingenuousness. And this is why I repeatedly ask you to comment on the Auschwitz survivors remarks.

Yesterday there was headline news on your controlled media CNN of one Jew chopping up another innocent young Jewish boy and placing his remains in the fridge. they are described as all Jews of East European descent. Which is fine. They look it. And only proves what I have been saying all along. MIDDLE EASTERN lands DO NOT BELONG TO YOU BECAUSE OF ANCESTRY. Your ancestors were not middle eastern or any relation of the Iraqi Abraham ( all anglicised names ). They were Europeans. Jews were living in the middle east for thousands of years. TRUE, but not your forbears.

Now whether GOD promised you this land? I don't know. The youtube videos I sent you tell me it's all a big fraud. How much of the OT is fiction, who knows.

To lay claim to lands based on fairy tales is kinda weird in this day and age, I'd say.

@ Traveler: IF Zioinism started before Hitler. Why did you wait for Hitler then? Isn't 2000 years long enough for you to have gone back?

@Salmandar

"Well goddammit every single European and North American were anti-Jew and couldn't give a tinkers fart that Jews were being massacred."

"Yesterday there was headline news on your controlled media CNN of one Jew chopping up another innocent young Jewish boy and placing his remains in the fridge. they are described as all Jews of East European descent. Which is fine. They look it. And only proves what I have been saying all along. MIDDLE EASTERN lands DO NOT BELONG TO YOU BECAUSE OF ANCESTRY. Your ancestors were not middle eastern or any relation of the Iraqi Abraham ( all anglicised names )"

I guess you do understand why many Jews wanted their own country' they want somewhere where they have have a government that doesn't treat them as invaders, a government that won't throw them out when it's not convenient to have them and where they can be safe from people like you. People who try to cloak their hate in some sort of political theme.

@ traveler: You just don't get do ya! Safe from people like me???

Buddy it wasn't me who was attacking you for centuries; which is what I was trying to tell a very intelligent person like you; I should add "intelligent with a few blockages".

And when I kept pointing to the millions of Jews killed by your very own westerners; you, instead of acknowledging that, became defensive and pointing to 4000 killed by Arabs, then you added another 500. Now once again did that enormous Arab hate that you point to translate into pogroms/inquisitions and holocausts?

Of course it didn't.

So if you were looking for a safe haven and it makes perfect sense to me; you don't immigrate and start slaughtering and hating the local people because they are not European enough. I believe there is quite a bit of racism even towards the Sephardic Jews and I was reading that some Ashkenazi parents refused to send their kids to school where the sephardis were.

As for me hating. My doctor and dentists are Jewish, as is my lawyer, as are some friends who love halal, if kosher isn't available.