Julie Tarp

Julie Tarp
Location
Oklahoma,
Bio
Born and bred in Texas. I'm a Screenwriter with a script currently in Development in La-La Land. Met and fell in love with my husband who is an actual cowboy. We have a 140 head cow/calf operation. He does the hard work, I just write about it.

MY RECENT POSTS

MARCH 20, 2010 1:02AM

The Dangers of Writing on the Internet

Rate: 60 Flag

It’s fun, isn’t it?  You know, to only tell one side of a story.  Well, not even actually tell it, really.  Just blast away with childish and grotesque remarks and hope no one notices the truth, I guess.

I’ll give you that I’m an easy target for the thin-skinned.  I speak my mind and I don’t bite my tongue.  I don’t have a problem with that or the aftermath.  The problem I have is if you do something shady and I call you out on it, how exactly does that make me a “bitch”?  Because you were caught?

I’ve seen OS change in my time here.  It went from a place of fervent and adult discussion to something I can’t even wrap my head around.  Apparently, if you don’t agree wholeheartedly with something, you better just keep your mouth shut or be called the old stand-by, bitch, when there’s nothing more clever that comes to mind.  (And yes, I know it’s supposed to be “cleverer” but that just looks weird.)  Oh, or even better be thought of as some part of a “mean girl” posse.  Please, you aren’t the first to think that one up and you won’t be the last.  It’s a lame attempt at gathering your own posse.  It’s stupid.  There isn’t one.  You're not that special.

Scanner recently posted “Having a Garden Party?” and it was pointed out that he had plagiarized most of it – word for word in some cases.  That is why I, Ablonde and Bonnie Russell are skanky, smelly, cootchie, bitches (or some such nonsense).  All because we dared to point out with actual facts that he had plagiarized someone else’s work – at least three different sources.  This is a writer’s site, is it not?  Are we the only ones who respect that?  Someone else’s intellectual property?  I don’t care if it’s on the back of a tuna can label, it belongs to someone else.

I’m not one to call out people in posts or salacious titles that someone’s grandmother can Google, but I really don’t mind calling out someone for something I take very seriously.  I take time to craft a post, a treatment or a script and to further copyright or register them with the WGA.  It makes me highly uncomfortable to think that someone else could take the words that I worked hours, weeks or years on and just assign their name to them and am completely baffled that a copyright doesn't mean anything to some people.  How exactly can you justify that?  But you see, instead of showing a little humility in the situation, scanner chose to somehow defend that he had written some of the post.  That is supposed to make it okay, I guess. 

On one of the sites he ripped the authors words from, there is a clear copyright notice that states, “Copyright 1996-2010 Creative Loafing Media, Inc. All rights reserved. No material contained in this site may be republished or reposted without express written permission.”  Now, if they want you to get written permission ahead of time for even using the material, what do you think they would think about using the material word for word and then attaching your name to it?  Like you wrote it?

I’m offended and saddened that something like this would even have to be explained.  It’s pathetic, really.  At a place where we are supposed to respect each other as writers, the most sinful act put upon us is plagiarism.  No one should stand for it - not a single person on here who values the written word, including the editors of Open Salon.  I mean, think about if they had chosen that as something to promote on Salon – lawsuit!  This isn’t an isolated incident with scanner and there are many others on here that chose to take someone else’s work and make it their own, receiving accolade after accolade for their “brilliant and creative” writing.  It is up to each and every one of us who actually care about the craft of writing or what we are putting out there to police behavior like this.  There is no room for it.  Period.

If this needs to be explained to you or you are confused on how to do research for a piece, then I suggest you learn the basics before you start “publishing”. 

It’s theft, plain and simple.

 

 

 

 

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It's quite simple isn't it? How hard is it to understand right and wrong here?

If revealing this sort of thing makes us bitches Julie, then that is a badge I will proudly wear.
I have to agree to that blondie. Slap the letter "B" on my chest. Oh, have you read "The Scarlet Letter"? Nathaniel Hawthorne my ass, it was written by me!
Julie- I haven't seen it but I will check it out and I trust your take on it. Appalling, and a damn good reason for social exclusion.
Thanks, Kelly, I appreciate that. It is spelled out in the comments on his post near the end. If he deletes them, I have them saved and am happy to include the post and comments here. And I completely agree, there's no room for a person like that here. Appalling is the perfect word for it.
Missed the post and the dust-up, but I wholeheartedly agree this place has changed, and I'm afraid not for the better. But I guess that was unavoidable once mgmt decided to turn this into just another Google adsense whorehouse and fill the frontpage with gossip, reviews of "reality tv" and other fluff and fodder just to attract a broader audience. Whoring up their product didn't save newspapers or network news or network TV in general, and I'm willing to bet it isn't going to work here either.
You'd think that a site for writers would find a post about plagiarism to be highly important, but then again there seem to be less of both those who are and those who give a s***.
Tom - I don't even care about his childish post calling us names, I only care that he is shown in the daylight for what he is. The post is linked here as well as one of the articles he copied from.

And I agree about the turn of OS, but I don't know that it's only because of the gossip and reality tv (of which I'm guilty of), there's also a level of maturity missing. No actual, level headed discussions going on. At the same time, they can only use what we provide as content. And, of course, not caring at all that there are plagiarizers blatantly posting on this site has to make you wonder what real writer would even want to associate with OS. This whole place has gone weirdo. 'Member the election? Yeah, good times.

Bonnie - Completely unreal. Really, I'm still shaking my head.
Well, having spent a bit of time on it I will say this:

I often wonder, when I read "stuff" here, how much is original and how much is copied in.... from other blogs, from news articles , from Wiki, etc., without attribution. I ALWAYS wonder.

I read Scanner's post, and the comments, and tried to compare his post to the references from ablonde and bonnie myself. It was not readily apparent at Wiki. Then I thought "is copying from Wiki really pargiarism"? I'm not sure it is.

BUT

If I saw YOUR words, or ablonde's, or even my silly words copied like that, I would have NO doubt it was plagiarism.

I think Scanner, in this case, is guilty of lack of attribution more so than what we really need to be concerned with as plagiarism. He sadi he got it from Wiki and I tend to believe him.

Having said that, his reaction was surprrising, and over-the-top. Certainly sexist and abusive.

Then again, he may have had just cause to feel threatened. It's not like we haven't all seen what can happen around here when you piss off the wrong women (and I do NOT include you).

Umm, so, that's my outsider's take after a fairly comprehesive review I think :-)

I could be wrong that copying Wiki is not plagiarism, but I do expect sourcing and attribution when the thoughts and words are borrowed extensively by the writer.

I am probably wrong for excusing his subsequent behaviour. But I can. This time.

Am I all wrong? Does this make sense? tell me the truth.
No, Kelly, I can kinda see where you are coming from on the Wiki thing. But, someone wrote that as well, right? We cite the dictionary if it's used. Put quotes around something?

However, just because he said he only used information from Wiki, doesn't make it true, especially when there are word for word sentences for the article I referenced in my comment to him, which I have also linked here.

There is no possible way that this is a coincidence:

From his post: "By this time his hair had grown shoulder length and he was heavily into the country rock genre. When he mixed in new material with his old music, the audience began to boo."

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2173/in-ricky-nelsons-garden-party-who-is-mr-hughes

From the August 10, 2004 article: "By this time his hair had grown shoulder length and he was heavily into the country rock genre. When he mixed in new material with his old music, the audience began to boo."

He follows that article completely until he moves to another subject. There is a clear and distinct difference in his writing style, grammar, etc. in the copied information and free-form.

So, no, there isn't an excuse for it in my opinion. Does that reference help at all?
But how do you really feel, Julie? I mean, speak up girl! Don't be so shy . . . :)
wow! just wow.
not only am i a bit shocked at the plagiarism and the subsequent reaction in the comments, but i find the lack of attention this post is getting to be shocking as well. perhaps its a time of day thing...

but honestly? for all the inane nonsense that i have seen hashed & rehashed in comments on this site, i find it surprising that this topic isnt generating more conversation & outrage.

perhaps we are all wrong. given the dust ups & the covers & ratings and the editor picks etc...perhaps this isnt a site for writers. perhaps this is high school and the popular kids can do as they please without consequence.
I wish this were actually a writers' site. It may have been at one time, but it's really not today. It's Facebook for people with logorrhea.
It's a slippery slope, to be sure. Back when I was taught how to research there was no such thing as the internet, so it was all 3by5 note cards and the like, with attribution. I will admit when trying to refresh my memory about an item or issue for a quick post, I will hit wiki to remember the basic points. Sometimes I remember to link, sometimes not.

Wholesale C&Ps verbatim are quite clearly items that need to be in quotes and italics, at the very least, and likely with a source to them.

But I think the notion of plagiarism on a writing site kind of goes back to the whole notion of information content these days. We won't pay for newspapers, and that was the core manufacturing plant for sound information. There's a hidden cost to having a Ben Bradlee vet and push writers on an explosive story.

Perhaps a shameless plug, but if you are thinking about the policing of "content" then you may want to peruse this....

http://open.salon.com/blog/gwool/2009/10/30/information_economics_print_to_e-mags_to_blogs_to_twitter
I had read his post and enjoyed it, but didn't realize an aftermath had begun. I've made my living as a writer for 20+ years. The golden ticket is "attribution." All he had to say was, "According to Wikipedia..." or whatever the source was, and no offense would have been committed. It's journalism 101. -r
I share Frank's view of OS as being closer to Facebook than to a serious writers' place, and, as such, I don't hold people who clearly have no formal training in the standards to which professional writers hold themselves, accountable for not adhering to those standards.

I do think charging Scanner with plagiarism for what he did is a tad harsh. He could easily have avoided this accusation, as others have pointed out, simply by providing attribution and/or a link. And it would have been more accurate, instead of claiming he "wrote" this for himself, to say that he "put this together" as a tribute, yada yada. Ah, that we all could be professionals - oh, and get PAID for our work.

As to the name-calling, that's disappointing.

I wonder if the ladies would accept a heartfelt ap0logy from a man who has been nothing but welcoming, gracious and supportive to me and many, many others on OS, provided this man could find it in his heart to do so?

For the sake of all the good-hearted, but imperfect people whom I love here on OS, I sure as hell hope so! (r)
ClarkK, well said.
So the "goon squad" of OS have been up and early, sharpening their nails and teeth and combing through to find their victims du jour to atteck. They have usually nothing better to do than create tempests on this place and have their kicks. Scanner, if you look at his responses, has already acknowledged his use of Wikipedia, as his source. The fact that he failed to do so at the beginning is that he is not a trianed writer or journalist. If any one of you "ladies" were so concerned about this, all you had to was point this out to him in a polite manner and teach, or write an informative post on how to go about accreditation, rather than singling members out and starting another one of your vicious free for all attacks. Your juvenile actions remind me Shirley Jackson's short story "The Lottery". Every once in a while, you seem to need a scapegoat to channel whatever it is that makes you so bitter, so that you can have a laugh and feel better at his/her expense. You may delete my comments if you find them too truthful to swallow. By the way, calling posters "idiot" on your comments is not a very polite way to respond, you should have better manners than that. Remeber: Anyone can criticise, it takes a nobler spirit to contact the person who erred and point to his shortcoming and correct. Not Ratred.
Funsun - "Good squad"? Seriously? Did you even read this post? No one had to "comb through" anything - it's all right there, out in the open.

Seriously, read this post before you make a comment like that, Especially that first bit. I don't find this to be juvenile in the least. It's a serious matter. He was informed of it and was given every opportunity to apologize or say he made a mistake. That didn't happen. When pointed out with word for word sentences, his response was to mention sentences that he had written. Completely bypassing them as you have done. I find it rather interesting that people keep saying, "well, he said in the comments he used wikipedia!". What about the article I pointed out - linked there and here? I don't see any mention of that. Do you?

"Vicious free for all attacks"? Seriously? He wrote a post entitled "skanky, smelly, cootchie bitches" with my picture on it.

I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing here, but you only appear foolish. If you really think that people sit around all day looking for "scapegoats" to "attack" that's really sad. It's just not true. If you think plagiarism is cool, that's your deal, I guess, but I don't.
:-D Fusun, good on you for being a woman and defending your sigh, MALE friend on what has NOT been a writers site for a long, long time. Granted, there are some very gifted writers who post on here but Julie, it's just my one opinion that you are not one of them. You have a sense of grandiosity in your "well researched" (opinions) blogs on reality TV shows. Sandy, well you said it. And if the photo fits, well...Pure negativity is not a critique. I don't care what Scanner writes/copies/pastes, he's a good guy and since none (and I do mean virtually none) of the people on here are getting paid, all of these "dust ups" are just hypocrisy in action and a way to get attention from a spoiled brat. As you would say, "there, I said it, it had to be said."
As someone who has spent more than a few hours writing for wikipedia, I'd like to point that that just because wikipedia is plagiarized all the time doesn't mean it isn't plagiarism.

But that's not what Mr. Scanner did. He plagiarized straightdope in a manner that is completely inexcusable, and got mad when people objected. I think this qualifies him as an idiot. But perhaps if he has learned the use of the word "fruition" and the notion that plagiarists get found out, he will improve.
Julie: What I find uncool is your post. Of course plagiraism is not right. You as well as I as a journalist and experienced writer know that. However, also as a journalist and someone who should be interested in informing, you would have done a far better and respectable job by writing a post about "plagiarism and how serious it is to abuse copyright", rather than this one which has the tone of one written by a child - begging for attention by calling out a playmate's name: " So and so and did a Boo Boo! Na, Na, Na Na Nah!" Don't forget, there are many people who write here and try to learn from their experience- it is a noble duty to teach them, rather than capitalize on their shortcomings. Do you understand the difference? If not, I am sorry.
Ummmm... wow. New to OS, and this is the first time I have actually been speechless. The copyright rape is nothing new (didn't really expect it HERE, but then again.. why not..?) in my photography is has happened a number of times.

I have to admit, since I have come to OS last week, I was kind of awe stuck by the number of incredibly well written, thoughtful, passionate posts I found, and how many of them made me stop and think from a viewpoint I hadn't thought of before. And even started drafts based on those thoughts.... but to NOT credit the source isn't something I would have thought of doing. Especially if I started using someone else's work... Guess I am just another Newbie, Slutty Bitch too. Because that is just plain wrong.
Just in case you aren't fervently watching everything Scanner says and all his fans/friends comments here is what I just posted:

Dear Scanner:
Whew, I didn't know until just today about this huge affront to the art of literature and research!!! Thanks for the walk down memory lane.
TO:
@ablonde
@bonnie
@tarp
Last time I looked Wikipedia was founded on the concept of OPEN SOURCE CREATIVE COMMONS. That means, unless otherwise noted the material there can be SHARED FREELY with others.
Back at 'cha you freaks (meant in a BAD way).
Lorianne - It's really confusing, isn't it? I guess the lack of outrage shows more about OS than I really wanted to see.

Frank - You're exactly right. It was at one time. I was amazed when I first came here at the pool of talent and the wealth of information and creativity and when the ability to have a discussion or a dissenting opinion wasn't met with name calling. People used to like facts around here.

Eric - I'm sorry that you've had this done to you. It honestly makes me sick. And you're exactly right - a little humility and a block quote would have just cleared it right up. The reaction was bizarre at best.

Really, I'm truly sorry that you've seen your words attributed to someone else. Hopefully, this will help others understand that there's someone else out there who worked hard for them, you know?

Wooly - Yeah, it's a different way to research for sure since we can so easily grab stuff from here and there. We aren't out finding the stories that newspapers are, so if someone if posting on a current event or news story, unless they happened to be there, they are most likely going to glean that information from somewhere else. That's okay. I don't have a problem with it. Let's just give the person who did find the information the credit they deserve. But copying entire sentences, changing a couple of words around in an entire paragraph, is certainly done so with knowledge of that specific act.

I think I remember that post but I'll check it out again. But, no, in no way am I going to be policing this place.ut, if something sticks out at me, I'll be sure to speak up.

Denise - You are exactly right! That's all it would have taken. Instead, it's "fuck you" and "skanky bitches". Sad.

JLee - I've never had it done to me that I'm aware of. I did have a weird feeling about one of my scripts one time (long story) and that was as disheartening a feeling as I could take. I can't imagine what you felt. Thanks for knowing how serious this is, no matter the site.

Clark - And maybe that's the problem. Maybe that's what just evolves when there is a social aspect to something. But, I guess I don't think just because someone isn't a journalist they don't know the difference in copying someone's work word for word and writing something with supportive quotes or links.

This isn't plagiarism? From his post: "By this time his hair had grown shoulder length and he was heavily into the country rock genre. When he mixed in new material with his old music, the audience began to boo."

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2173/in-ricky-nelsons-garden-party-who-is-mr-hughes

From the August 10, 2004 article: "By this time his hair had grown shoulder length and he was heavily into the country rock genre. When he mixed in new material with his old music, the audience began to boo."

There's more, but that's pretty in your face to me.

His apology for his behavior in his comments was a separate post calling us bitches. I'm pretty sure that you and I both would be waiting for quite some time for that to happen. I've never thought anything bad about scanner, seems like a nice enough guy, but what he did was wrong and his reaction when presented with facts clearly shows something quite different.

Sandy - You can totally take them, it not like some are even reading them. (Look! I just gave you written permission!)

I really do prefer the term tramp though.
I missed scanners post in the first place. Then I followed your links Julie and I was surprised to see how vehemently scanner reacted. That he quoted without attributing, and then was less than gracious in his responses. Probably was embarassed. Maybe he didn't think it was all that bad. Or maybe he was caught dead handed and didn't know what to say. Who knows?

I know this, Scanner is a good guy. He's going through some troubles now. His life is in flux. it's no excuse, it's all the excuse in the world. he's not thinking. he's stroking himself. he should apologize and heaven knows he shouldn't be calling anyone bitch or get nasty when he was caught red handed being a shithead. stealing and plagerism is shitheadedness. but I don't think he saw it that way. I think he probably read what he copied, thought, "EXACTLY what I'd say", copied it, added his own thoughts and feelings and viola!

It's like Sandra Lee and her "semi-homemade" crap which I know has made her a rich woman...take a little of this ready made stuff, add some spices, some chicken breasts and hey! it's all yours.

so scanner took some readymade wiki and added his own spice and viola! semi home made blog.

look...we ALL KNOW he's a good guy. can we cut him some slack here?

if it happens again, then we know. but right now, I'd rather think of him of someone just not thinking right at this time.
"If you really think that people sit around all day looking for "scapegoats" to "attack" that's really sad."
Obviously you had quite some time to kill if you took the time to look up Scanner's "sources." I did my own Google search on this, spent approximately 3 minutes and couldn't find a single source he copied from, outside of Wiki. So, that tells me:
A: your agent just sent your "screenplay" back with a rejection letter
or
B: you've got a severe case of writer's block
or
C: someone failed to say "thank-you" when you waited on them at the drive-thru.
before reading any responses to me, because I suspect someone might take issue with my first comment, I want to say I agree wholeheartedly with you Julie. I think you're spot on. I think plagerism is above all things disrespectful to the effort writers give creating their work. I KNOW he was wrong. but I think he's a decent man. And I think he didn't realize how important this issue is to a writer.

tar away if you must. why not. you're right if you do. but I like the guy. and I don't think he realize how serious this is. that's it.
@Bonnie Russel: If you are referring to my February 22, 2010 post,
"Shame on You for violating a Blogger's space on Open Salon" - you seem to have missed the exact point. I wrote that and closed the comments exactly for the reason stated within the post. Attacking is not my game, I leave it to experts who have not much else to do here.
And out of principle, this is my last comment on this post. I've said all there is to be said. Play among yourselves.
"Vicious free for all attacks"? Seriously? He wrote a post entitled "skanky, smelly, cootchie bitches" with my picture on it.


oh no. I didn't see that. aw shit. aw shit.
Yes, Greg, please turn this into male/female issues. That's right to the heart of it, no? Yes, defend plagiarism. How's that copyrighted logo from "The Sporting News" working out for you? I'm not concerned with your take on my writing ability. You think I'm not a good writer? So what? I always thought scanner was a nice guy, I don't believe I said anywhere that he wasn't. But, his comments and subsequent post (which he must have learned from you) show a different side. And yes, this does deserve attention but your quote isn't how I would word it.

Mumble - THANK YOU! I'm unsure why it is so difficult for some to see that straightdope article!

Sandy - Don't do it - it's apparently totally acceptable not to.

Funsun - I was respectful, he was not. As I said, I don't normally call people out, but he repeatedly defended his actions and was flippant about it - or do you count"fuck off" as adult behavior. Again, one last time, slowly - Scanner posted a piece entitled "Skankly, Smelly, Cootchie Bitches" with my picture on it, railing on how we would come to his blog and say mean things. I believe you should be making your comments about attention and childishness to him - they are misplaced here. I used scanners name because it is important to actually see what the issue is. If he or you don't like that, then perhaps he should have thought about that beforehand, no?

Mr. Coffee - I can only imagine what that image thing does. It's all over this place and it's sad. Welcome newbie, slutty bitch! i like you already.

Flora - I'll refer you to mumble's comment above. It's apparent that you think it's fine - of course skipping over the examples that I showed both there and here - that ain't from Wikipedia, honey.
Flora - I did my own Google search on this, spent approximately 3 minutes and couldn't find a single source he copied from, outside of Wiki. Do you not see the humor in that? I didn't find it, someone else did. Your attempts at whatever are pretty pathetic.

Monkey - That's why it's good to read things before we comment - not just go on what others want you to think. He pulled the post (or TPTB did) when folks came to our defense about how nasty it was he said he just wanted to make sure it was out there. I'm sorry for whatever he's going through. Sincerely. But I didn't do it to him. And AGAIN, it's not just Wiki! He lifted entire sentences from the article I linked both there and here. But, feel free to dismiss actual facts, seems to be the thing to do around here.
no bonnie. I don't think scanners not a good guy. I think scanner went way over the line and owes you all an apology. but he is AT HEART a good man. and good people are imperfect sometimes. they make mistakes.
Real men don't plagiarize. They pay homage.

Why silent homage? To prove their sincerity.

Have I read this comment somewhere else sometime before?
julie, I "read things". I was commenting to you in regards to your post.

Thats how I do comments. To the author. I try not to make a full days work for myself answering every comment that commented to an author although sometimes I will. I was answering YOU.

as for reading things, I'm sorry for him that he did that, wrote that subsequent post. and I could be wrong, and god knows it wouldn't be the first time, but I'll say it again: Scanner is a good man.

many months of reading his words HIS words have indicated to me, this is a decent man. and sometimes decent people make mistakes.
You are brave and good, Monkey. Foolish, tho you may be.

And, perhaps, foolish for me not to keep my damned nose out of this.

But I agree with what you just said. Scanner screwed up with the aforementioned "skanky" post, which I never saw, and I believe an apology for that is in order.

Yet, I wonder if anything short of evisceration would be acceptable to those who were wounded. Forgiveness, simple tho it may seem in concept, is often the bitterest of drinks.
First issue: Plagiarism is wrong -- plain and simple.

Second issue: Name calling on this site or any other demeans the writer more than the accused.

Third: Continuing to focus on an individual poster rather than the issue of plagiarism turns the spotlight away from the pertinent issue. Don't feed the alligators!

Let's not provide oxygen to fuel the flames of a war that can't be won. Until the editors of this site show some professionalism in what they allow to be posted, we will continue to have school yard name calling rather than intellectual discourse.

Feeling threatened is not an excuse for being abusive in word or deed. Not being able to control one's impulses is a sign of trouble brewing. It is never acceptable behavior....no matter what "women you might piss off on this site."
R
If nothing else, this post has reminded me of the importance of integrity in the writing process. I have no journalistic training, and I regard my own writing more as something that I enjoy doing for my own sake.

But, I think I am going to go back through my blogs and make sure that I have made the proper attributions. I think I am pretty good about this when it comes to the written word, but I am not sure that I have properly attributed photographs that I have used.

And, as I always say, I wouldn't want to be judged solely on my worst actions, so I hope that there will be some forgiveness here. (Easy for me to say, I know, as I wasn't the target of Scanner's post, but my own experiences with him have been good ones.)
Yep, Leon, you totally stole that!

Kyle - Thanks, I appreciate that. I think those are great questions and it just depends how far you want to go with it, you know. Most pictures could be found on Google images or key word phrases in a search engine. But, sometimes, they are difficult to find. You could also try searching key words from the email itself - sometimes you can find the originator of it. But, for the most part, if you at least say "I received this in an email" - that doesn't lead anyone to believe you are trying to pass something off as your own. You're safe.

Stellaa - Once again, I can't add anything to what you've said.

Oh, monkey, I was just confused then by your comments. I posted the link to the article and also quoted what scanner had called us. I didn't make it perfectly clear that it was a separate post because that wasn't the focus here. This isn't a reaction to being called a childish name - it's a reaction to an offense that I take seriously and he couldn't care less about.

I guess I don't understand being "sorry for him". What about the guy who wrote those words? What about the readers of scanners posts? Are you sure those are HIS words?

Yes, yes, he's a good man and I'm the bad guy.

Clark - Yet, I wonder if anything short of evisceration would be acceptable to those who were wounded. Forgiveness, simple tho it may seem in concept, is often the bitterest of drinks.

You're piling an awful lot of stuff on to me when no apology has been issued. I begged for an apology from him on his post, not for only me, for all of us. what I was met with the following day was shocking. Don't you think it's best to gauge a reaction to an apology once it's actually given and not before?
Without wading into the personalities involved, I'd like to say a word or two about plagiarism, as I've found myself on the receiving end of it more than once recently.

In one case, I found one of my Open Salon news pieces copied entirely wholesale on the online edition of a major metropolitan U.S. newspaper, without attribution, and was shocked (I'd found it doing a Google search of my own keywords). In another, I discovered that one of my former college professors had published a monograph that was essentially an extended version of a paper I'd written for him in the 1970's.

Ironically, I was also accused of copying a Wikipedia article once, when it was an article I'd (at least partially) written and edited. News sources took some of the wording from that Wikipedia article and used it when writing about the person in question's death. Even though I'd written my own article first, and the Wikipedia post, there were those who accused me of copying from either Wikipedia or the other news sources, and none were true.

I've seen a lot of cutting-and-pasting on Open Salon in my time here, occasionally without attribution. If I had a problem with it with an individual poster I'd likely do the same thing I occasionally do if I catch a spelling/typo/editing error, contact them privately. I happen to like everyone involved in this particular firestorm, so am not going to give the appearance of taking sides with regard to personalities.
Julie:

Hi. You are sooooooooooooooooooo right about watching this place change from something really good, to an absolute mess. One big reason you rarely see me around, or even see me make a serious "contribution." Let them have it. I'm on your side.
The title of Scanner's post drew my attention. I wrote what I thought of how insulting the title was to women generally in the comment I posted there before the post was taken down. I don't like or defend plagiarism, but I didn't really get into that with him. I just wrote how I felt about his title and I flagged the post.

Really, all he had to do was cite what he copied and pasted, but he didn't do that and maybe he wasn't intentionally plagiarizing, but it really is stealing. Folks that think it is okay wouldn't feel that way if it was part of their dinner that folks were cutting and pasting on to another plate so they could eat it without the preparation and cooking, not to mention any expenses involved in preparing the meal. But that is essentially what plagiarism is, stealing off the table of writers who actually invest in their work the effort that makes it original, and tasty to those who come by to read it. Writers don't pass out doggie bags unless you ask them to do so. That's what permission and citation of work amounts to in the first place. It's fair to use what others write if we don't hide that we were inspired by their works.

Good people make this mistake, and if they didn't know in the first place that it is wrong they wouldn't get mad about being caught, they'd just add the citations and apologize. That didn't happen in the case at hand, and it's a sad fact.

Greg, please don't be a sexist bully when you don't agree with us. You have way to much to share to waste your talent that way.

Julie, way to go. You've really drawn some traffic to an important issue. I just hope folks won't gang up on one another because of this, and instead, make note and follow the fair use doctrine. I'm sure everyone can google that.
Julie, listen to me: my defending scanner the man doesn't mean I'm saying you're wrong or at fault or a bad person. I've said it six ways to sunday, I agree with you. but what I'm saying is he's shown himself to be a decent guy and now we know he's a flawed human being. it doesn't excuse what he said to you or the fact that he copied someone else's words. he owes you an apology. I agree with you one hundred percent.

Donna, there have to be standards and rules on OS and it's up to OS staff to enforce them. At least the basics for heaven's sake. Plagerism has no place on this site or any decent site for that matter. if this were more important to the editors, the offending post might have been flagged and removed by editors with a note to the author. there is no need to make this personal.

when people try to resolve issues like this, feelings take command. and that's what's happened in this situation.
And there it is, Donna - a reminder of how comments can twist intent and turn into something that isn't even about the post itself. you are correct, this is about plagiarism. Points all well said.

Jeannette - I'm glad that it can at least remind us of that if nothing else. Whatever we write, a story from childhood, a poem, a stupid thing about reality tv - it's ours and it's not acceptable for anyone else to pretend it's theirs. No one's perfect, we've all done it by accident - just left something off or whatever. It happens. It's when it's intentional that something needs to be said.

I have to say I find it interesting that I'm the one who needs to be forgiving here. I'm the bitch, slimeball, skanky, cootch or whatever. But beyond that, I'm not the one who plagiarized. Scanner thinks what he did was perfectly fine and stated that many times. Yet, I'm the one who needs to cower to him? Seems a bit off to me.

Kathy - So, I think you can see the point and intent of this post. That's the problem with OS - you have to be on some imaginary side. It's stupid. The post isn't about scanner's actions or name calling - it's about his blatant plagiarism. Period. nothing to do with personalities.

Trout King - Thanks!
Julie, since when is "wondering" "gauging?" And I don't recall that you disclosed you "begged" for an apology. Now that does strike me as incongruous with what I've seen of your approach here today.

Bonnie, if you're addressing me with your suggestion that someone is "excusing" his behavior, I don't believe that I have. And if you got that impression from my earlier comments, I'll say it now: I don't
Julie, I didn't say you "need" to apologize. I do believe that Scanner should apologize.

I was talking about forgiveness, even if there is no apology forthcoming. I'm sure you understand that that's something different.
Oh, and forgiveness is certainly not cowering. In fact, I think forgiving is one of the bravest things a person can do.

But I'm not here to start a fight with anyone. I do understand the anger here.
Julie - Forgiving someone for apologizing? That's "cowering?" You do have a way with words. And please don't remind us that he hasn't apologized. We know that. I am only suggesting that this would be a way to end the unpleasantness with a modicum of grace.

Once again, the refrain: apology, followed by forgiveness. Sing it, children.
Well ... shit. I thought I had found a good writing site, basing it on the fact that it was affiliated with Salon.com. Now I see the thieves are here already. Apparently, no one is watching the store

I have belonged to maybe ten different writing forums and after a time, they all are taken over by Trolls.

Hoyt Axton sang, "I think I'll hit the highway, I guess you're not the one." I will keep looking.
As I have written and so often said in my classes and workshops:
"INGREDIENTS: LIGHT TUNA, WATER, VEGETABLE BROTH (CARROTS,CELERY, PEAS, SOYBEANS),SALT"
Susanne - That is exactly what needs to be said here, thank you.

Monkey - Point taken.

Clark - I can only go by your comments, and perhaps I should have said "wondering", but it's the same thing. no need to wonder about what my response would be to an apology. If it happens, you'll be able to see it. You can see in my comments on his post,which is linked here, that I wanted an apology - for the plagiarism. Although I'd sure as hell take one for his subsequent actions as well.

Jeannette - Forgive for plagiarizing or thinking it's perfectly fine?

Clark - You're really confusing the hell out of me. I'm not the one with the way with words, you are. "Forgiving someone for apologizing? That's "cowering"? What are you talking about?

Mister - I don't want to dissuade anyone from becoming an active member here. While it's completely disheartening to see this kind of behavior here, in this place of all places, I'm sure it's everywhere. But, maybe people will think twice about it now. Give it a try, you never know. There are some brilliant people here, they sometimes get lost in the feed.
I always look forward to your writing because I know whatever the topic (and I do mean *whatever the topic,* because you don't think I'd read about The Bachelor if it didn't have your name on it, do you?), it will be interesting and lively.

So boy is it disappointing to see you got into a fight and I missed the opening volleys because it's been a while since I've gotten to deploy my particular brand of pompous invective.

I once considered dropping out of school rather than finish the citations for a paper I was working on, because that's how damned important appropriate citation is for researched writing. It's why I'm determined to never cite a fact ever again that I didn't personally fabricate. (It belatedly occurs to me that on a post that I did do research for, I neglected to cite Wikipedia for its numbers. Damn it.)

So at the risk of looking like some bitch-sycophant member of the Goon Squad, good for you for making a stand here. It isn't about the name-calling, it's about the fact that when one person here plagiarizes, it affects the integrity of everyone who writes here.
Noah - Ha! I assume you use air quotes when speaking in front of a crowd.
Julie, I'm talking about forgiving for the attack post.

Ultimately, it's not my place or your place to forgive anyone for plagiarism. It can be pointed out, and the person can either acknowledge it or not. Beyond that, there's not much to be done. So in that case, I think letting go is the better option after a certain point.
Em - You should totally bottle that pompous invective.

It isn't about the name-calling, it's about the fact that when one person here plagiarizes, it affects the integrity of everyone who writes here.

Exactly!
Yawn. Angry, bitter, yada yada...Me, sexist, joke. If there's a group of men on here who attack women constantly, PLEASE make me aware of them via PM and I'll defend women to the death, or any other group.
This was aimed at Julie and no one else. I report what I've seen from her and that's it. I included no one else in my comment.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr.

I certainly hate no one on here, and certainly not Julie. I find her "critiques" that just "must be said" to be dark and filled with negativity. As FusunA said, use your knowledge to enlighten via compassion, not a switch from a tree to the shirtless back.
when you get to the garden party
you better know just how to act
if you say the wrong thing or look different
you might find a knife in your back

but it's alright now......
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/

And here is the law on copyright. There is fair use, but usually, that involves analysis and at least citing your sources.
@Frank - I suggest if people here have logorrhea that they go on the BRAT diet instead of taking Pepto Bismal...
I agree with the principle here but not so much the application. Scanner is a hack writer, like me and a lot of people here. If he copied from Wiki I don't really care. Hell, I've written wiki on Japanese history so it's not like it's professionally done. And I suspect it goes on all the time here to some degree.

Not saying I condone it, I'm saying I think it's better to let someone's actions speak for themselves and then walk away when it's a non-professional situation. I don't feel what Scanner did reflects poorly on my writing here any more than the professional writers reflect well on me here. It all shakes out in the end as to who we are.
Wow, it's like we're all back in Kindergarten again, with bigger words.

Scanner made a mistake. He was attacked. In more than one place. He felt it necessary to defend himself. Everybody acted poorly as far as I am concerned.

Whether this is a writer's or a bloggers site, I wold like to think we could a treat a each other with a little more compassion. And let's please move on!
"blogger's," with an apostrophe, before I get regaled for my bad grammar.
Thanks, Joe - that's a great resource for all of us!

Harry - You know I love you, but you are missing the point and the actual facts. Please read scanner's post and the article I linked here as well. Or just my comment on his post that had nothing to do with Wikipedia. At all.

But, just because someone isn't "professional" does that make it okay to use their words as your own? I don't follow that logic at all.

Sweet - Writer's site/blogger's site - plagiarism is plagiarism.
You may be a beyotch... but that doesn't mean you ain't right, sistah.
Interesting, thanks for sharing. I see your in Texas and now I have a craving for some Texas BBQ. Any chance your BBQ'ing soon?
Surly - Finally! Someone gets it!

L&P - Exactly. Stick some quotes around it, add a name, no big deal.

Yeah, Bill gets all the attention. Which reminds me, I should change that avatar because I'm really, really, really old.
This is why the Misogyny posts were so important. The first label that gets thrown at smart, women writers pointing out facts is: "Bitch!"

We've come a long way, baby.
I hope you PM'd him first to give him a chance to correct it.
Ack, I never said it was OK - I said I agreed with your principle. I said the consequences are Scanner's alone. There's a difference between a NYT reporter plagiarizing and someone writing for the hell of it on a blog posting that will disappear like a fart.

I did read the original post when it first came out and I loved the story of the song and I don't care he failed to attribute something, that's on him to live with and the only damage he does is to himself. I'm just talking adding perspective here so there's not so much contention.
Kim - Just did last night! But now it's all yucky outside and could possibly snow again. So weird.

Deb - Amazing, isn't it?

Cindy - I have dibs on Mrs. Michaels! As fantastic in person as she is in black and white.

Amanda - I did not and perhaps I should have. I normally would have done so, but assumed that the ones who commented before me tried that approach. I don't know if that's the case or not.
Wut up my skank beeeeeeeyotch!

OK - how many teachers in the house? A lot - I know.

Here's the scene:
TEACHER - This is not original work.
STUDENT - Yes it is.
TEACHER - No, it's not. See this?

(consequence - STUDENT fails and is possibly expelled)

STUDENT - Moooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
MOM - What?
STUDENT - My teacher hates me. She picks on me. I didn't do it.

(consequence - Mom becomes enraged)

MOM - TEAAAAAAACHERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr!!!!
TEACHER - What?
MOM - You're a horrible shrew and you bully my child.
TEACHER - Your kid cheated.
MOM - No he didn't. And I know he didn't because that was an accident - an oversight, an omission - and if you don't give him a passing grade, I'll go to the principal and I'll go after your job.

(Consequence - Teacher has to choose between moral obligation to society and edicts of professionalism or avoiding conflict)

OK - it doesn't always go down like that, but it does sometimes. The fact is that plagiarism is unacceptable. Regardless of how you get found out, it is never ok.

There is also another truth. This ain't school. For all the bellyaching and bitching about this being a "writer's site", about how pop culture and reality tv are worthless cover topics, about how EPs are not given to those with the most talent or creativity, I cannot wrap my brain around how anyone just dismisses the fact that using someone else's words is just flat-ass wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm prone to dropping some 2Live Crew without quotation marks and Lord knows I've let Dave Grohl speak his magic poetry through my fingertips without crediting his pure, rock-God, slippery goodness. I don't claim perfection, but I do know that some simple formatting will save you a world of shit when you do forget or skip it.

Sometimes the shit works out - like with 50 cent & Slim Shady ... but usually, not so much. Sampling, Jackin' Beats, Stealin' Shit - That will win you some Grammy's, but never any respect from writers. Like my boy Vanilla Ice and Those Damn Police ... bum bum bum bum buh bum bum bum or whatever.

What we have here, community-wise, is a case of "LOOTING" vs. "SURVIVAL" ... just like the photos from Katrina. Some see it this way, some see it another. If I know anything, it's that this crowd can't come together on the time of day, much less bigger issues. What if I did a post stating that drunks have the very best intentions of getting home without harming anyone and that MADD is just a big smelly cootchy goon squad? Would that fly? Yhea - that's what I thought.



"Can you smell my cootchie now?"

- be sure to quote me on that.
Isn't it a little early in the day for Mom to be putting her fingers on any man's pure slippery goodness?
For the record, Julie, I think your points about plagiarism are completely valid, and we all need to pay attention. I am just disappointed that this flared up in such a nasty way among writers whom I respect. And I think Harry's Ghost is right on the money. now I'm going take a shower and wash all this nastiness off of me.
It is my duty to report a distressing lack of attribution.

Cindy left a comment at Sally Swift's blog yesterday that had OSers spitting Pepsi and dying. She failed to reveal that her hilarious comment was stolen from The Sayings of Will Ross.
*YELLP*
*YELLP*
*YELLP*
HELP!!!! ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!
Oh, I missed the memo that JT is a teacher on here. In this case Tarp/Surly whichever you are when you answer, I apologize! Damned OS forgets to send out e-mails. Well, I can assure you that my mom will take your side on this as she respects teachers in a CLASSROOM. I also missed the memo that this was a classroom... Now, dismissed.
J - thanks for the post which really prompted lots of emotion, traffic and comment. I'm not entirely sure why. After reading through your great post and all of the comments what comes through is fear. What is everyone so afraid of?

Why can't we just write our own words and if we'd like to quote someone else cite it. simple. What isn't acceptable is delving into personal name calling . . . and don't post after you've been drinking. sit overnight on it. :)

stellaa & others - please don't stop posting thoughtful - even if counter - comments. one of the reasons I started writing on OS is that I looked forward to the exchange of ideas - the respectful and healthy debate of thought. I resisted blogging for a long time because the ones I read seemed to reference one another and veered so much into the personal and patting one another on the back. If I, and, in turn, you, are living in the now, and watching what we do and how we react to things, OS will be a healthy robust site of ideas - a blog site (which I'm under the impression it is).

I do get weary about referencing beta OS and how OS used to be. I joined when it was beta. That's the past. What can we all do presently to make OS what we want it to be? As we all know -- as in art - once something is created and put it out there it takes on a life of its own. You can't control it. In fact, we can't control much.
I think O.J. Simpson was/is guilty of murder. I'm a Civil Rights activist and my best friend is African-American and I have not ONE racist bone in my body. I think German people are wonderful people but Hitler was a mass murderer, psychopath and sociopath. I think most white men are privileged assholes but there are thousands that I know personally and love dearly. I think most Colombians are probably great people. Pablo Escobar is dead and I'm glad of it. Women, ahhhh women, I am married to one you know? I wash clothes, clean house, do the dishes, pretty much split the household chores down the middle. I work with my son on homework, as does my beautiful, sweet, intelligent wife. I have almost gone to blows over women and equal pay. Does this mean I have to LOVE every woman now? I have been called, on OS, by a woman/women, a prick, asshole, dickhead, and on and on and on.
So please tell me, short of the "c" word, when we really, really, REALLY dislike someone on here (I know we should turn the other cheek, I get that), and we REALLY feel the need to respond with an adjective, just give me the list of approved words all of us misogynistic men can use without being castrated... Ok? Fair?
Harry, sure a little perspective never hurts and you are correct that this is just a mere blog site. I however just differ in my opinion on whether one form of writing is more valuable than any other. Taking into context this blog site, what about the comments? "Great writing!" "Fantastic information!" followed by "Thank You!" "Just wanted to write about it." It's a lie. They are taking credit for someone else's work. I'm just not okay with that.

Mom - What a great analogy!

Snippy - Dave Grohl is never too early for mom.

Bonnie - Yeah, he certainly shocked the hell out of me with that comment. I think though I'm more upset by the fact that he can't understand what the actual issue is, which is why I decided to do this post.

Sweet - Thanks. I actually thought this was pretty thoughtful considering...

Oooh, Snippy - that one's gonna hurt.

Greg - Everything about that is so stupid. Surly and I are completely different people if that's what you are trying to infer here - my god, there are pictures everywhere! Nice try. It's too bad you can't go beyond yourself ans see what mom is saying.
(the following comment was copied from another comments thread and authored by the author -- I hope I've covered my bases)

mega cool ... another dust-up ... and with The Dude?!

where was I during all the festivities?

oh yeah ... watching my kid's high school baseball game ... meeting some people afterwards at the local watering hole to discuss our school system, politics, business, our families, etc. ... making sure the missis went to sleep with a smile on her face

in other words, living (a real) life

try it ... you'll like it ... promise
Ahem. :-D Where's the answer to the "misogyny" question? Give me some adjectives stronger than, arrogant, misguided, pompous, self-centered, bitter, angry, misandry????? (could that be it?)...

So, from this point forward, when women refer to us in a derogatory manner, the word we will throw out there is "misandry". It is written, so it shall be. I thought no word could ever offend you? According to the "harsh truth" you lay down in your commentaries, that is what you implied. I'm sure Scanner hasn't slept for days...
@KOB - just because we both think you're a fucktard, doesn't mean that we're the same person. It just makes us smart.
Wow, I missed this discussion because I was busy tracking down students who plagiarized (I teach college writing online). I have several PowerPoint presentations and interactive tutorials if the writer in question is unclear as to what does or does not constitute plagiarism. If anyone is interested, Jonathan Bailey blogs about copyright issues and plagiarism resources at Plagiarism Today http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/. These are resources for people who write on the web (not for students), but I bookmarked his site.
I can't know as to the allegation. I do know that even a whif of plagiarism sullies the blog site.
Lane - Exactly. It's so simple to do, it's not like it takes extra work to cite something. Two clicks basically.

Since you've been here, I know you've seen what I touched on and Stellaa knocked out of the park. It's a pretty sad state.

Dude, Greg, what are you even talking about? This post is about plagiarism. I don't see where I've mentioned misandry once. The only thing I said derogatory was that a person plagiarized someone else's work. Not really derogatory - just the truth. That person happens to be a man, I guess. What the fuck are you talking about? Again, nice try trying to make this about something it's not. Although, I'm not sure what Germans and racism has to do with anything. Weird.

Craze - I totally get what you're saying. However, writing is my life and livelihood (sometimes), so I take offense when someone doesn't respect other people's work.
Copying a Wiki is plagiarism if the information is taken word for word and is not common knowledge, or if the ideas are not one's own and are presented that way. Plagiarism.org is a wonderful resource that I share with my students. According to these experts, one possible motivation for plagiarism is that the writer may feel like his own ideas/words are not good enough.

Reference
Intentional plagiarism. (n.d.). Plagiarism.org. Retrieved March 20, 2010 from http://plagiarism.org/plag_article_educational_tips_on_plagiarism_prevention.html
http://plagiarism.org/plag_article_what_is_plagiarism.html
Plagiarism is wrong, even if it's only a little bit. Scanner seems like a nice enough virtual person, until he plagiarizes and then attacks people who call him out on his misdeed. I would have said "no way" , had someone asked me if I thought him capable of the name calling. Ya never know, I guess.

One more thing, there are so many fine writers here, I just feel as though it's everyone's job to keep this the fine site it can be.
R
p.s. Julie and all the others who were hurt by this, I'm sorry for your pain.
Interesting - Thanks for the links! Valuable and important information for all of us.

Jon - I couldn't agree more.
1. Did scanner really commit "plagiarism" ? I mean does regurgitating info gleaned from wikipedia on OS really qualify as bona fide plagiarism? Where is the motive? Where is the profit? I don't think wikipedia would really get a conviction here.

2. OS is like a small town--and a boon for many who should be, could be, may be published and for those who will never be published. We should be grateful for what we have.

3. Ladies, being proud to be called a "bitch" is not everyone woman's idea of being "good". In fact, some of us (and I'm no daisy!) are ashamed when that badge is slapped on our chest. What about a friendly PM to the "offender", suggesting he go in and credit his source or add a link? Why bring out the big guns?

4. I suggest all y'all check out the film "Where the Wild Things Are", and ask yourself---how many of those "Wild Things" do I have running amok in my head? I mean, who really wants to cast the first stone? And do we really want to be throwing stones?

5. Aren't we primarily, anti-war, pro peace talks, folks on this site? Pay close attention to the dirt-clod war scene in the film---there is a wealth of psychological and emotional insight---you can feed on it for days.

6. I put up with the gross display of drunken "pirating" on this site a number of months ago--and was sickened at the the liberal abuse of the freedoms of a site like OS--more so than scanner's recent misstep. Let's get some perspective here!

7. Scanner is one of the most generous and loyal readers on OS--I think the ladies owed scanner an apology.
Misogyny is the implied undercurrent by many of the females who have commented on here. "@KOB - just because we both think you're a fucktard" -IAmSurly

Pure class and my point is made! If you're going to say "fucktard", you may as well say what you're disguising, "retard". But oh no, that would be more politically correct than the socially accepted "fucktard". Hypocrite. (Is that word ok? Is it offensive? Is it misogynistic?)
Julie -- Writing = your life. O.K. Point taken.

How passionate are you about Asian/third-world governments & companies copying our technology/weapons systems/entertainment/software/medicines, etc.?

No biggie, right? 'Cause those mega-sized defense contractors, entertainment conglomerates, Microsoft, BigPharma, etc. that employ tens-of-thousands of people can "absorb" the losses, regardless of the principle behind piracy. Oh, but it's so different and is deserving of your passion when it comes to the copied word from an author or two?

Bottomline -- Scanner's not getting any book deals because of his blog and the work you're getting paid for isn't in jeopardy by bloggers, is it?

So, save the lectures for college kids and go out and enjoy the day.
Peony - Just because scanner continues to focus that he only sourced from Wikipedia doesn't make it any less true than the first time he said it. Please read the comments and the links to the article - an actual article from thestraightdope.com. And yeah, it is plagiarism.

What exactly do I owe him an apology for?

"Julie, I would not apologize to you if they strapped my privates to a battery and shocked them until they fell off. You are nothing but trash. People like you just make the world a sadder place to live, having to watch you slime your away around people. Go hang out in an alley and you may find a friend, but you would have to pay them to hang out with a scumbag like you!"

Yeah, nice guy alright.

Greg - Maybe two comments out of the hundred even mentioned anything about the difference of when a man has a dissenting opinion and when a woman does it. Again, nice try. This is a post about plagiarism - do you have anything to add to it?

My opinion of you has nothing to do with you being a man, I'm sure I would think the same if you were a woman too.

Craze - Please don't presume to know what I care about and what I don't. My remarks are in direct correlation to yours. That's it.
Ladies, I think you are missing the point, it is the way in which your criticisms are said, not the criticisms. The Golden Rule might help here. Of course when you poke a sharp stick in a hornet's nest, one might be bitten.
Well, I had one of my music posts ripped off last year (no one on here). Word for word. It sucked.
Thanks for the discussion on plagiarism.
Ha...this sort of blue fellow loves women so much, he posts dumb blond jokes for fun. I'm sure all those naturally blond German women are feeling his special brand of love and respect. This would make a great show. Oh wait, Oprah already did it in 1986.

Come to think of it, he didn't name his source so I suppose he's claiming these as his own.

http://open.salon.com/blog/kind_of_blue/2010/03/18/almost_friday_not_quite_dumb_blonde_jokes
Get thee behind me Gerry Springer! pffft
@KOB - Golly jinkers Uncle Wink, did I say something politically incorrect? Please report me to Sarah Palin.

Just so we're clear, and politically correct, I think you're an asshat. I'd think that no matter your gender/sex. Your personality and your attitude towards me and towards Julie is what I based that upon. You are forever taking jabs at Julie because she had the cojones to call you on your shit on more than one occasion, and you, clearly don't have the stones to take criticism.

Now, stop bothering me. It's Saturday and I have way better things to do with my time than listen to you whine.
I have strong feelings about plagiarism (and just commented on that issue on N. Jordan's reasonable new posting on this topic) but to me, that is not the big issue here.

The bigger issue to me is the reaction to having it pointed out, which was to immediately attack and in quite a nasty fashion.

But even that is just one person. It's the fact that a lot of people have no trouble with that response -- and in fact are repeatedly defending it and justifying it -- that truly disturbs me.

I missed this blow up so have had to read the posts in question this AM to catch up. But the follow up one from Scanner about "the bitches" was deleted, so I Googled to see if I could view a cached version. And ladies, speaking of proper quotes, I'm here to tell you that you've been misquoting the subject line. According to Google, it's:

"Stanky fishy coochie smelling bitches - scanner - Open Salon"

There was no cached version so I can't view it, but just the title is really offensive to me. It's ugly, hateful, disgusting.

Defenders of Scanner, tell me: Is there some way this title can be explained to be acceptable? In response to, well, anything? Is this really the way a "good guy" writes about women? Even women he's angry with or feels wronged by?

I know a lot of good guys and they would never talk or write like this, even when really angry. ( I've seen a lot of them when angry, and they still don't respond this way.)

I really wish there were civility standards on this site. And yes, I mean for both genders, for everyone.

Calling people names, writing attack posts, saying "Fuck you" (thank god THAT phrase isn't copyrighted, because a lot of people would be in trouble if it was) -- it's all pointless and ugly and it only reflects badly on those who do it, no matter the provocation.

We can't control other people's behavior. But we can all behave in the way we wish others would. Yes, that tired old Golden Rule. It actually works. And that's my suggestion for how to reverse what many here are saying is an ugly slide in behavior at OS: Start treating everyone with the courtesy you would like to receive. (And if you can't do that, walk away from the computer and ignore them.)

Ugliness spreads. But fortunately kindness does, too.
I'm thinking about writing about writing a post about reading comprehension.
@Freaky Troll, you could try, but who would get it?
Well spoken, Silkstone. I wish I could give you a rating!
What so many have said, including Julie and Ablonde, irritated mother, Silkstone, Stellaa, Mrs. Michaels etc. There is NO excuse for plagiarism whether it's in the classroom or elsewhere. There isn't one person on here who defended scanner who would like it if THEIR work was stolen and someone else's name slapped on it. That's the true test of honourable behavior.

If it's a matter of not knowing, then a person can say I didn't know, and move on. From the vicious response, I don't think that was the case. The attacks were disgusting; equally disgusting were the people who defended the attacks AND the plagiarism.

You don't have to be a professional writer to know that plagiarism is WRONG, whatever the excuse or person doing it. As an educator, I've heard every excuse in the book and none of them has ever rung true. The attitude seems to be it doesn't matter if you don't get caught, and if you do get caught, attack the person who catches you.

Like a lot of writers here, I am very leery now of posting anything that is original that I might want to sell elsewhere. When so many people think plagiarism is OK if they like the person doing it, it doesn't equal a comfortable place to write.

Like Stellaa, I rarely comment at OS any more because it's just not worth the effort if all that people want to hear is "how wonderful." Even the slightest hint of less than gushing praise is treated as hostile criticism by way too many thin-skinned people here who never tire of projecting their insecurities onto others. OS has changed, and as others have said, not for the better. I'm glad I was here for at least part of the "good old days."
@silkstone, as I'm seeing this, no one wrote to him to point out that he had taken someone else's writing and that it needed to be attributed to the proper source. instead, he was confronted on his own site, and challenged, not in a respectful way, either. then, on sagemerlins blog, the same thing happened, the guy was challenged about his blog, which was disrespectful to sagemerlin and offtopic btw.

this is not to say what was being said was incorrect. and further this is not to defend what was done. what i'm seeing what the manner of confrontation was..well, confrontational.

perhaps ms Ablond, ms Russell, ms Tarp felt that plagerism or someone who "borrows" from another writer without attributing deserves no such respect or consideration. I assume there is a reason why they came at him in this way.

so the offender did his evil coochie post. then I guess thought the better of it, and took it down.

now everyones underdrawers are wadded up, backs are against the wall and no one's budging.

there's no need to sledgehammer someone just because they're wrong. there's no need to stonewall others because they've hurt your feelings.


good has come of this:

MUCH discussion about plagiarism and attributing and crediting!
MUCH discussion about not calling women coochies and bitches!

so both sides win and both sides lose.

How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all? - Firesign Theater.
:-D I just laugh at you "feminists" who do more harm for the true feminist movement. Yes Julie, this started about plagiarism but others turned it into an alternative discussion. It happens. Even on a post as important as yours. As for Surly and/or you, I could not care less what either one of you think of me. It's sort of like someone saying Dick Cheney doesn't like me, or Karl Rove. It's a badge of honor.

You're not only surly, you're just nasty. Julie can't take criticism any more than any other person on here either. If she could, she would have simply let whatever Scanner or anyone else said, go...

Again, hypocrisy. Oh, and misandrists. Both of you, and a couple of more.
Well, you can include me too, KOB, because I think that you are grinding a personal axe here that has nothing to do with the subject, OR feminism. It's your right to do it, but it's still not appropriate to this post.
I didn't know about the plagiarism. Thanks for telling me. I come here expecting to read people's original work.
Silkstone, the fact that anyone would even click on a post titled "Stanky fishy coochie smelling bitches" speaks volumes. I've heard plenty of grumbling since I arrived last June about how horrible OS has become. There's plenty good here for people who want to find it, and there's the other stuff. Everyone who complains about how it's deteriorated has a responsibility to elevate the dialogue. This isn't it.
Let me wrap this up. We are talking about nit picking here. Plaigerism on OS. How serious can we get? To my understanding, OS is not for the exclusive use of professional writers. I and scanner use this blog to practice writing and to gauge the effectiveness, understandability, and reception of our "writing". As a 30-year technical editor and a college graduate English major, I still have trouble with whether I place the period before or after the quotation mark. Let me summarize:
1. Scanner's claim that he was attacked "in concert" seems valid.
2. The attack claim can be justified by the post's front page headline: Plagiarism On OS.
3. Several readers have complained about the inability of OS editors to detect plagiarism. Can they give me an estimate on the size of the editorial staff required?
4. Scanner has frequently stated that he is trying to become a writer. My reaction to that is I will accept an occasional blooper on his part. I think "blooper" is what it is when you fail to correctly use attribution protocol -- in OS posts. OS is not the Associated Press.
5. The comments have strayed from plagiarism to sexism to misogyny! I'd like to add vulgarity and crudities.
6. Please review the following comments to this post.
ClarkK 09:01 AM
FunsA 09:10 AM
Oh, and here's the origin of that phrase, by the way: Types of bitches
What the hell is a "coochie" anyway? Is it similar to a "cootie?" Am I getting too old for this crowd??
Emma, I don't include you in that group because of your use of rationale. But, if it's considered grinding an axe, I guess you could say I'm grinding my axe on the oft abused misogyny label toward men who are OBVIOUSLY not misogynistic by women who are OBVIOUSLY misandrists. (Or perhaps they are no more a misandrist than I am a misogynist????) So yep, grinding that axe. Respectfully not aimed at you at all though.
I thought about writing a blog, but I think the last thing anyone needs is another blog on the subject.

But, if I had written a blog, I would have called it "Predictability", because just about everything that has happened here has been predictable.

A person writes a blog that plagiarizes another source without attribution. Some other persons understandably take issue with it and confront that person on their blog. I'm betting that if those people had PM'd the person about it, this whole situation might not have happened. Please note that I'm not saying what those people did was wrong. What I'm saying is that the response was fairly predictable.

The person felt attacked and probably embarrassed. So he lashed out in a wildly ugly and inappropriate way. Again, wrong and inappropriate -- but pretty predictable.

Next came the predictably outraged responses. After that came the predictable non-apology apology and a whole host of responsive blogs on the subject.

I'm not defending plagiarism or posting blogs about "stanky fishy coochie smelling bitches". Both of those things are wrong. But, again, what happened was completely predictable, given the way the situation was addressed.

And now we've got everyone firmly encamped in various corners, and probably a lot of relationships ruined. I find that sad.

So, I guess, in the end, what I'm defending is the concept of forgiveness, of trying to be the bigger person (even if the other person isn't), of not defining a person by their most outrageous or ugly act, and of letting things go.

Again, I realize that's easier said and done if one doesn't have a particular dog in the hunt, but what's the alternative? Holding grudges and escalating the ugliness. Endless accusations and counter-accusations, and "But what he/she did was worse!" statements that serve to accomplish absolutely nothing.

Lather, rinse, repeat.
Jeanette, I agree about the predictability of it all. It happens on all online sites, in essentially the same fashion, over and over. Only the names and specifics change.

I still think the best tactic is to avoid the negative and nurture the positive. I've noticed that there are several OS members who are extremely well-liked and respected who never comment on any of these meta matters. Not a peep. And I think that's one big reason why they're well-liked and respected. Staying out of thrashes is a good policy. I'm going to go back to working on it!
I think that's a wise course of action!
Yeah, I guess we should never say anything bad around here. Never post actual truth or proof of something that bothers us. Especially if it's something we feel other writers might have a concern about. That just makes me the bad guy - a predictable one.

This is about plagiarism. Period. Something that should concern everyone here. Why exactly should I feel bad that the guy's feelings were hurt because he got caught? I don't get that. I wonder how the other writers of his material will feel when they see his name attached to their work.

The level that this sank to is not because of anything I said. All I did was write the truth with PROOF. Why shouldn't that be okay? But, now it has crossed a line. A legal one.
Peace, Julie. You're taking what I said way, way too personally. I have nothing against you.
And Bonnie.

I won't say anything further.
Just because it's been mentioned by others, I checked Julie's screenplay through a plagiarism checker, and it came back positive for possible plagiarism. . .

. . .to Julie Tarp's blog on Open Salon.
I am glad this does not happen much with photography.
Like Freaky said, there's a lot people talking at cross purposes here. Is plagiarism wrong? Of course it is. Should it be pointed out? Of course it should be. But to my understanding that's not the topic of this post. The topic is Scanner's alleged plagiarism.

Conflating all forms of plagiarism with what Scanner did is just plain wrong and unfair. A blogsite is just not that important. It's like cheating in a creative writing class. The only person you really cheat is yourself. One can say "theft is theft" but I still say there's a difference between stealing a candy bar and stealing a car.

And for the record, anyone can steal anything of mine anytime for any reason. I pity the poor bastard who has to stand behind my words. I just know that when I die the only important thing will be that my words were heard. But I apply this to myself alone.
I ran Julie's original screenplay through Plagiarism Checker.com, the site Mrs.Raptor indicated. and it showed that did indeed plagiarize, from herself!

Check it out. http://www.dustball.com/cs/plagiarism.checker/
Thank you Kathy and Emma.
Uh, emma. . .I think you just plagiarized me. *insert smiley*
Sorry, Kathy. I did not read all the new comments before I posted.
Julie, this is from your buddy Emma:
For instance: In running Julie Tarp's "original screen play" scene through a Plagiarism Checker (which by the way I have done) there are multiple instances where her "original screen play" is word-for-word the original screen play for the movie "Giant"

How's that for plagiarism! Not only do you plagiarize your owm posts, you do it to whole screenplays. This is backed up by your buddy Emma. What say you plagiarizer?
No problem, emma. Just friendly teasing.

Can one plagiarize their own work? Interesting question.
Kathy, I was glad to see you post a comment somewhere in this pile of posts today pointing out that you had mentioned to David Cox about his photo not being attributed. Nobody jumped down your throat for doing that, because you were right about the photograph. It belonged to someone else. He corrected it. It was over. The only thing I see in all of this that is different, is that scanner got on his high horse over it and David Cox didn't - he just took care of the housekeeping and kept on making his original point. I'm glad you weighed in on this.
Scanner - It's unfortunate that your reading comprehension skills are as poor as you writing ones. That comment is from Mrs. Raptor, emma is quoting her. Mrs. Raptor made a false accusation against me on your post, which of course you have seen and of course had no proof attached to it. Emma took it upon herself to check out the accusation - and it showed that yes, indeed I plagiarized, MY BLOG POST HERE OF THE SAME NAME. It is taking the words of my post and attributing them to me here on Open Salon which is where the original work appeared.
Do any of you people know what TIME it is ?
It's LATE.
It's time for bysies.
... and God bless julie, and ablonde, and bonnie, and scanner too ...
and god bless silkstone, and stellaa and surly and clark and even though he wasn't here God bless greg, and God bless you.
You are right. Plagarism is the biggest sin. (A bigger sin may be that I don't know how to spell plagiarism. Oh. There we go.)

This is going to make me more watchful re: my own use of images, music, etc. Which I do accredit sometimes, sometimes not, I confess. But I'm moving toward it. Went back to an old blog last week (before this) and attributed an image.

As for my words, they are my own, for better or worse!

Good job, Julia, for standing up and being brave.
i am glad you wrote this. i honestly used to like scanner, but now it's hard to know if i liked anything about him, since i'm not sure what was his. that's really the risk of plagiarism, and it has nothing to do with whether you or the person you plagiarized were paid for their work: it has to do with the fact that people cannot get to know you if you won't be honest about who you are and what you think.
A suggested theme song for JT and Surly. Nothing sexist or misogynistic in this one. It just fits.

(SPOKEN)
Folks, I'd like to sing a song about the American dream.
About me, about you, about the way our American hearts beat way down in the bottom of our chests. About the special feeling we get in the cockles of our hearts, maybe below the cockles, maybe in the sub-cockle area, maybe in the liver, maybe in the kidneys, maybe even in the colon. We don't know.

(SUNG)
I'm just a regular Joan with a regular job.
I'm your average white suburbanite slob.
I like football and porno and books about war.
I've got an average house with a nice hardwood floor.
My husband and my job, my kids and my car.
My feet on my table and a Cuban cigar.

But sometimes that just ain't enough to keep a woman like me interested (oh no) no way (uh-uh). No, I've gotta go out and have fun at someone else' expense.
(oh yeah) yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

I drive really slow in the ultra-fast lane,
While people behind me are going insane.
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, such an asshole)

I use public toilets and piss on the seat,
I walk around in the summertime saying "How about this heat?"
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (she's the world's biggest asshole)

Sometimes I park in handicapped spaces,
While handicapped people make handicapped faces.
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (she's a real fucking asshole)

Maybe I shouldn't be singing this song
Ranting and raving and carrying on
Maybe they're right when they tell me I'm wrong?
NAAAAH!

I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (she's the world's biggest asshole)

(SPOKEN)
You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado convertible, hot pink, with whale skin hubcaps and all leather cow interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights. Yeah! And I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115 miles an hour, getting 1 mile per gallon, sucking down quarter pounder cheeseburgers from McDonald's in the old-fashioned non- biodegradable Styrofoam containers! And when I'm done suckin' down those grease ball burgers I'm gonna wipe my mouth on the American flag and then toss the Styrofoam containers right out the side, and there ain't a God-damned thing anybody can do about it. You know why? Because we got the bombs, that's why!

Two words--nuclear fucking weapons, OK? Russia, Germany, Romania - they can have all the democracy they want. They can have a democracy cakewalk right through the middle of Tianannmen Square and it won't make a lick of difference, because we've got the bombs, OK? John Wayne's not dead - he's frozen! And when we find a cure for cancer, we're gonna thaw out the Duke and he's gonna be pretty pissed off. You know why? You ever taken a cold shower? Well, multiply that by 15 million times. That's how pissed off the Duke's gonna be.

I'm gonna get the Duke and John Cassavettes and Lee Marvin (Hey) and Sam Peckinpah (Hey) and a case of whiskey (Hey) and drive down to Texas! (Hey, Hey, Hey)

(Hey you know you really are an asshole)
Why don't you just shut up and sing this song pal.
I'm an asshole (She's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (She's an asshole, what an asshole)
A - S - S - H - O - L - E.
Everybody, A - S - S - H - O - L - E.

Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf

(SPOKEN)
I'm an asshole and I'm proud of it!

(Original "I'm An Asshole" Lyrics by Denis Leary)
Denis Leary - Asshole Lyrics
Album: No Cure For Cancer
Grow the fuck up, Greg. You've gone way too far this time.
Sorry mom. If the song fits...
If I was your mother, I would be ashamed of you. I'm not, so I'm just disgusted.
Greg, I can think of no good reason for you posting that comment. Given the past few days context, it goes beyond tone deaf, which should mean something to you. You're letting something vile control you here.
Greg, your new hat is too tight. We all get that you hate Julie, okay? WE GET IT. And it's not going to matter what she says anywhere, you're going to flip out. I'm sure she could say something about killing kittens being bad and you'd counter with "So Julie Tarp is fine with starving children in third world nations from their only food source."

Dude, if you are as enlightened as you have reported, then you're better than the petty droppings you've been leaving around all day.
Greg, you make me ashamed to be a human.
KOB--it's strangely ironic that you would use something by Denis Leary, considering the fact that he got his comedic start by plagiarizing Bill Hicks.

Anyway, maybe it's time to cool out for a while? Bump some Coltrane?
Sorry to disappoint but no faux or sincere apology here. I've seen Julie pull this trick one too many times on here over the past year and a half. As to me "hating" her, I don't hate anyone. That's my personal feeling. I thoroughly dislike her, yes. Hate, no. I wouldn't fling dollar bills at her if she were sitting in Columbus peacefully protesting like the man with Parkinson's disease endured. That's hate.

As for the context of why I posted the Leary lyrics, humor. It was to me and still is. I make no apologies unless I mean it. Like the country is split in politics, the OS politics is split on this one. I'm on one side, the others on the other. Not on plagiarism or sexism, but purely on the people who initially start these (pardon this new cliche') "dust ups".

I do hate them but wasn't going to sit this one out. Julie has had this coming and it's not about me. It's about her. Her and her goon squad that follow her.

That's as honest as I can be and I don't apologize. Emma, my mom is quite proud of me. She looks at me for more than a blog site. If you don't like me (and I'm quite sure you don't based on your nasty PM) then do as you so often preach to people, ignore me.

Hypocrisy again.
I do hate them but wasn't going to sit this one out. Julie has had this coming and it's not about me. It's about her. Her and her goon squad that follow her.

I'm not a part of a goon squad and frankly you have upset me insinuate that I am. It is possible to not agree with someone and not have it be a conspiracy.
Gawd Greg it's like with each passing day you become more of a douchebag than I ever thought possible. How on earth do you scratch your nose with your head that far up your ass?
Kind of Blue? You're just so over the top, hateful, wrong, twisted, angry, probably jealous, and despite your self proclamations of being a male feminist, what you really are is a misogynistic bastard with a bitter axe to grind. The truth, the truth is that you're not qualified to pick dog shit from between the treads of Julie Tarp's tennis shoes. No, you're not good enough for that job Greg.
Hell yeah, sister. Fight the good fight. I'm behind you 100%.
In the interests of full disclosure, this is the "nasty" PM I sent to Greg after his attack on Julie earlier today:

have you lost your mind?

* Reply
* Forward

emma peel to © Kind of Blue ® ™
Your behavior toward Julie in particular, but also surly is absolutely unconscionable. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are no longer any acquaintance of mine, and I have blocked you on Facebook. Grow up and get a life, Greg.

I'd say it's a lot less "nasty" than anything he's posted here.
Yes, and if there's a "goon squad" according to everyone's favourite hypocrite, FusunA, count me in. I have no problem being part of a squad that fights plagiarism, misogyny and hpyocrisy.
gah, u r all so stoopid.

hey, waite, i wanna be on tha goon sqad!!
I'd join that goon squad.
Sing it, sister. And I don't know if this is common knowledge but your stuff is copyrighted by the very act of writing it down on the page (or typing it out into the ether even). You don't have to mark it as coopyrighted or register it or do any damned thing with it.
Well, I'd be proud to be called "Coochie" on your behalf
Plagiarism is plagiarism. Good for you.
Headache inducing but worth reading, just to confirm that my dislike for KoB has been justified all along.
Goon squad! Where do I sign up?
Unfortunately this is a widespread problem.
I haven't read the comments. I am fiddling around.

I just wonder Why some post get put into my SPAM?

I just discovered 'STUFF' that makes me so bewildered.
`
You 'ought' to translate this into twenty-three languages.
`
Maybe `Amy_will_insist that commenter `thoth (TRUTH) -

?

Where is `Ablonde etcetera? No mention `Troth? You get?

SCAMMED?
`
Your SPAM (this Blog etc.,) somehow end-up in my SPAM.
`
Why?
No worry.
Reap/sow.
`
Who is blogger `Thoth?
He's not a bird lark in tune?
He act as a mean bumble bee?
`
I agree?
You blog.
You nice.
Howdy.
`
I'm sad Lobster season ends.
Boats here haul in the traps.
I feel like Lobster in pants.

Lawyer insist I behave.
No put bee in britches.
Careful with privates.
I mean be cautious.
People read here.
`
I feel like tea
Cake and tea
No pin badge
`
If Your Blogger
nice` Ablonde
some Otters
and Behave
`