It’s fun, isn’t it? You know, to only tell one side of a story. Well, not even actually tell it, really. Just blast away with childish and grotesque remarks and hope no one notices the truth, I guess.
I’ll give you that I’m an easy target for the thin-skinned. I speak my mind and I don’t bite my tongue. I don’t have a problem with that or the aftermath. The problem I have is if you do something shady and I call you out on it, how exactly does that make me a “bitch”? Because you were caught?
I’ve seen OS change in my time here. It went from a place of fervent and adult discussion to something I can’t even wrap my head around. Apparently, if you don’t agree wholeheartedly with something, you better just keep your mouth shut or be called the old stand-by, bitch, when there’s nothing more clever that comes to mind. (And yes, I know it’s supposed to be “cleverer” but that just looks weird.) Oh, or even better be thought of as some part of a “mean girl” posse. Please, you aren’t the first to think that one up and you won’t be the last. It’s a lame attempt at gathering your own posse. It’s stupid. There isn’t one. You're not that special.
Scanner recently posted “Having a Garden Party?” and it was pointed out that he had plagiarized most of it – word for word in some cases. That is why I, Ablonde and Bonnie Russell are skanky, smelly, cootchie, bitches (or some such nonsense). All because we dared to point out with actual facts that he had plagiarized someone else’s work – at least three different sources. This is a writer’s site, is it not? Are we the only ones who respect that? Someone else’s intellectual property? I don’t care if it’s on the back of a tuna can label, it belongs to someone else.
I’m not one to call out people in posts or salacious titles that someone’s grandmother can Google, but I really don’t mind calling out someone for something I take very seriously. I take time to craft a post, a treatment or a script and to further copyright or register them with the WGA. It makes me highly uncomfortable to think that someone else could take the words that I worked hours, weeks or years on and just assign their name to them and am completely baffled that a copyright doesn't mean anything to some people. How exactly can you justify that? But you see, instead of showing a little humility in the situation, scanner chose to somehow defend that he had written some of the post. That is supposed to make it okay, I guess.
On one of the sites he ripped the authors words from, there is a clear copyright notice that states, “Copyright 1996-2010 Creative Loafing Media, Inc. All rights reserved. No material contained in this site may be republished or reposted without express written permission.” Now, if they want you to get written permission ahead of time for even using the material, what do you think they would think about using the material word for word and then attaching your name to it? Like you wrote it?
I’m offended and saddened that something like this would even have to be explained. It’s pathetic, really. At a place where we are supposed to respect each other as writers, the most sinful act put upon us is plagiarism. No one should stand for it - not a single person on here who values the written word, including the editors of Open Salon. I mean, think about if they had chosen that as something to promote on Salon – lawsuit! This isn’t an isolated incident with scanner and there are many others on here that chose to take someone else’s work and make it their own, receiving accolade after accolade for their “brilliant and creative” writing. It is up to each and every one of us who actually care about the craft of writing or what we are putting out there to police behavior like this. There is no room for it. Period.
If this needs to be explained to you or you are confused on how to do research for a piece, then I suggest you learn the basics before you start “publishing”.
It’s theft, plain and simple.
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If revealing this sort of thing makes us bitches Julie, then that is a badge I will proudly wear.
And I agree about the turn of OS, but I don't know that it's only because of the gossip and reality tv (of which I'm guilty of), there's also a level of maturity missing. No actual, level headed discussions going on. At the same time, they can only use what we provide as content. And, of course, not caring at all that there are plagiarizers blatantly posting on this site has to make you wonder what real writer would even want to associate with OS. This whole place has gone weirdo. 'Member the election? Yeah, good times.
Bonnie - Completely unreal. Really, I'm still shaking my head.
I often wonder, when I read "stuff" here, how much is original and how much is copied in.... from other blogs, from news articles , from Wiki, etc., without attribution. I ALWAYS wonder.
I read Scanner's post, and the comments, and tried to compare his post to the references from ablonde and bonnie myself. It was not readily apparent at Wiki. Then I thought "is copying from Wiki really pargiarism"? I'm not sure it is.
BUT
If I saw YOUR words, or ablonde's, or even my silly words copied like that, I would have NO doubt it was plagiarism.
I think Scanner, in this case, is guilty of lack of attribution more so than what we really need to be concerned with as plagiarism. He sadi he got it from Wiki and I tend to believe him.
Having said that, his reaction was surprrising, and over-the-top. Certainly sexist and abusive.
Then again, he may have had just cause to feel threatened. It's not like we haven't all seen what can happen around here when you piss off the wrong women (and I do NOT include you).
Umm, so, that's my outsider's take after a fairly comprehesive review I think :-)
I could be wrong that copying Wiki is not plagiarism, but I do expect sourcing and attribution when the thoughts and words are borrowed extensively by the writer.
I am probably wrong for excusing his subsequent behaviour. But I can. This time.
Am I all wrong? Does this make sense? tell me the truth.
However, just because he said he only used information from Wiki, doesn't make it true, especially when there are word for word sentences for the article I referenced in my comment to him, which I have also linked here.
There is no possible way that this is a coincidence:
From his post: "By this time his hair had grown shoulder length and he was heavily into the country rock genre. When he mixed in new material with his old music, the audience began to boo."
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2173/in-ricky-nelsons-garden-party-who-is-mr-hughes
From the August 10, 2004 article: "By this time his hair had grown shoulder length and he was heavily into the country rock genre. When he mixed in new material with his old music, the audience began to boo."
He follows that article completely until he moves to another subject. There is a clear and distinct difference in his writing style, grammar, etc. in the copied information and free-form.
So, no, there isn't an excuse for it in my opinion. Does that reference help at all?
not only am i a bit shocked at the plagiarism and the subsequent reaction in the comments, but i find the lack of attention this post is getting to be shocking as well. perhaps its a time of day thing...
but honestly? for all the inane nonsense that i have seen hashed & rehashed in comments on this site, i find it surprising that this topic isnt generating more conversation & outrage.
perhaps we are all wrong. given the dust ups & the covers & ratings and the editor picks etc...perhaps this isnt a site for writers. perhaps this is high school and the popular kids can do as they please without consequence.
Wholesale C&Ps verbatim are quite clearly items that need to be in quotes and italics, at the very least, and likely with a source to them.
But I think the notion of plagiarism on a writing site kind of goes back to the whole notion of information content these days. We won't pay for newspapers, and that was the core manufacturing plant for sound information. There's a hidden cost to having a Ben Bradlee vet and push writers on an explosive story.
Perhaps a shameless plug, but if you are thinking about the policing of "content" then you may want to peruse this....
http://open.salon.com/blog/gwool/2009/10/30/information_economics_print_to_e-mags_to_blogs_to_twitter
I do think charging Scanner with plagiarism for what he did is a tad harsh. He could easily have avoided this accusation, as others have pointed out, simply by providing attribution and/or a link. And it would have been more accurate, instead of claiming he "wrote" this for himself, to say that he "put this together" as a tribute, yada yada. Ah, that we all could be professionals - oh, and get PAID for our work.
As to the name-calling, that's disappointing.
I wonder if the ladies would accept a heartfelt ap0logy from a man who has been nothing but welcoming, gracious and supportive to me and many, many others on OS, provided this man could find it in his heart to do so?
For the sake of all the good-hearted, but imperfect people whom I love here on OS, I sure as hell hope so! (r)
Seriously, read this post before you make a comment like that, Especially that first bit. I don't find this to be juvenile in the least. It's a serious matter. He was informed of it and was given every opportunity to apologize or say he made a mistake. That didn't happen. When pointed out with word for word sentences, his response was to mention sentences that he had written. Completely bypassing them as you have done. I find it rather interesting that people keep saying, "well, he said in the comments he used wikipedia!". What about the article I pointed out - linked there and here? I don't see any mention of that. Do you?
"Vicious free for all attacks"? Seriously? He wrote a post entitled "skanky, smelly, cootchie bitches" with my picture on it.
I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing here, but you only appear foolish. If you really think that people sit around all day looking for "scapegoats" to "attack" that's really sad. It's just not true. If you think plagiarism is cool, that's your deal, I guess, but I don't.
But that's not what Mr. Scanner did. He plagiarized straightdope in a manner that is completely inexcusable, and got mad when people objected. I think this qualifies him as an idiot. But perhaps if he has learned the use of the word "fruition" and the notion that plagiarists get found out, he will improve.
I have to admit, since I have come to OS last week, I was kind of awe stuck by the number of incredibly well written, thoughtful, passionate posts I found, and how many of them made me stop and think from a viewpoint I hadn't thought of before. And even started drafts based on those thoughts.... but to NOT credit the source isn't something I would have thought of doing. Especially if I started using someone else's work... Guess I am just another Newbie, Slutty Bitch too. Because that is just plain wrong.
Dear Scanner:
Whew, I didn't know until just today about this huge affront to the art of literature and research!!! Thanks for the walk down memory lane.
TO:
@ablonde
@bonnie
@tarp
Last time I looked Wikipedia was founded on the concept of OPEN SOURCE CREATIVE COMMONS. That means, unless otherwise noted the material there can be SHARED FREELY with others.
Back at 'cha you freaks (meant in a BAD way).
Frank - You're exactly right. It was at one time. I was amazed when I first came here at the pool of talent and the wealth of information and creativity and when the ability to have a discussion or a dissenting opinion wasn't met with name calling. People used to like facts around here.
Eric - I'm sorry that you've had this done to you. It honestly makes me sick. And you're exactly right - a little humility and a block quote would have just cleared it right up. The reaction was bizarre at best.
Really, I'm truly sorry that you've seen your words attributed to someone else. Hopefully, this will help others understand that there's someone else out there who worked hard for them, you know?
Wooly - Yeah, it's a different way to research for sure since we can so easily grab stuff from here and there. We aren't out finding the stories that newspapers are, so if someone if posting on a current event or news story, unless they happened to be there, they are most likely going to glean that information from somewhere else. That's okay. I don't have a problem with it. Let's just give the person who did find the information the credit they deserve. But copying entire sentences, changing a couple of words around in an entire paragraph, is certainly done so with knowledge of that specific act.
I think I remember that post but I'll check it out again. But, no, in no way am I going to be policing this place.ut, if something sticks out at me, I'll be sure to speak up.
Denise - You are exactly right! That's all it would have taken. Instead, it's "fuck you" and "skanky bitches". Sad.
JLee - I've never had it done to me that I'm aware of. I did have a weird feeling about one of my scripts one time (long story) and that was as disheartening a feeling as I could take. I can't imagine what you felt. Thanks for knowing how serious this is, no matter the site.
Clark - And maybe that's the problem. Maybe that's what just evolves when there is a social aspect to something. But, I guess I don't think just because someone isn't a journalist they don't know the difference in copying someone's work word for word and writing something with supportive quotes or links.
This isn't plagiarism? From his post: "By this time his hair had grown shoulder length and he was heavily into the country rock genre. When he mixed in new material with his old music, the audience began to boo."
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2173/in-ricky-nelsons-garden-party-who-is-mr-hughes
From the August 10, 2004 article: "By this time his hair had grown shoulder length and he was heavily into the country rock genre. When he mixed in new material with his old music, the audience began to boo."
There's more, but that's pretty in your face to me.
His apology for his behavior in his comments was a separate post calling us bitches. I'm pretty sure that you and I both would be waiting for quite some time for that to happen. I've never thought anything bad about scanner, seems like a nice enough guy, but what he did was wrong and his reaction when presented with facts clearly shows something quite different.
Sandy - You can totally take them, it not like some are even reading them. (Look! I just gave you written permission!)
I really do prefer the term tramp though.
I know this, Scanner is a good guy. He's going through some troubles now. His life is in flux. it's no excuse, it's all the excuse in the world. he's not thinking. he's stroking himself. he should apologize and heaven knows he shouldn't be calling anyone bitch or get nasty when he was caught red handed being a shithead. stealing and plagerism is shitheadedness. but I don't think he saw it that way. I think he probably read what he copied, thought, "EXACTLY what I'd say", copied it, added his own thoughts and feelings and viola!
It's like Sandra Lee and her "semi-homemade" crap which I know has made her a rich woman...take a little of this ready made stuff, add some spices, some chicken breasts and hey! it's all yours.
so scanner took some readymade wiki and added his own spice and viola! semi home made blog.
look...we ALL KNOW he's a good guy. can we cut him some slack here?
if it happens again, then we know. but right now, I'd rather think of him of someone just not thinking right at this time.
Obviously you had quite some time to kill if you took the time to look up Scanner's "sources." I did my own Google search on this, spent approximately 3 minutes and couldn't find a single source he copied from, outside of Wiki. So, that tells me:
A: your agent just sent your "screenplay" back with a rejection letter
or
B: you've got a severe case of writer's block
or
C: someone failed to say "thank-you" when you waited on them at the drive-thru.
tar away if you must. why not. you're right if you do. but I like the guy. and I don't think he realize how serious this is. that's it.
"Shame on You for violating a Blogger's space on Open Salon" - you seem to have missed the exact point. I wrote that and closed the comments exactly for the reason stated within the post. Attacking is not my game, I leave it to experts who have not much else to do here.
And out of principle, this is my last comment on this post. I've said all there is to be said. Play among yourselves.
oh no. I didn't see that. aw shit. aw shit.
Mumble - THANK YOU! I'm unsure why it is so difficult for some to see that straightdope article!
Sandy - Don't do it - it's apparently totally acceptable not to.
Funsun - I was respectful, he was not. As I said, I don't normally call people out, but he repeatedly defended his actions and was flippant about it - or do you count"fuck off" as adult behavior. Again, one last time, slowly - Scanner posted a piece entitled "Skankly, Smelly, Cootchie Bitches" with my picture on it, railing on how we would come to his blog and say mean things. I believe you should be making your comments about attention and childishness to him - they are misplaced here. I used scanners name because it is important to actually see what the issue is. If he or you don't like that, then perhaps he should have thought about that beforehand, no?
Mr. Coffee - I can only imagine what that image thing does. It's all over this place and it's sad. Welcome newbie, slutty bitch! i like you already.
Flora - I'll refer you to mumble's comment above. It's apparent that you think it's fine - of course skipping over the examples that I showed both there and here - that ain't from Wikipedia, honey.
Monkey - That's why it's good to read things before we comment - not just go on what others want you to think. He pulled the post (or TPTB did) when folks came to our defense about how nasty it was he said he just wanted to make sure it was out there. I'm sorry for whatever he's going through. Sincerely. But I didn't do it to him. And AGAIN, it's not just Wiki! He lifted entire sentences from the article I linked both there and here. But, feel free to dismiss actual facts, seems to be the thing to do around here.
Why silent homage? To prove their sincerity.
Have I read this comment somewhere else sometime before?
Thats how I do comments. To the author. I try not to make a full days work for myself answering every comment that commented to an author although sometimes I will. I was answering YOU.
as for reading things, I'm sorry for him that he did that, wrote that subsequent post. and I could be wrong, and god knows it wouldn't be the first time, but I'll say it again: Scanner is a good man.
many months of reading his words HIS words have indicated to me, this is a decent man. and sometimes decent people make mistakes.
And, perhaps, foolish for me not to keep my damned nose out of this.
But I agree with what you just said. Scanner screwed up with the aforementioned "skanky" post, which I never saw, and I believe an apology for that is in order.
Yet, I wonder if anything short of evisceration would be acceptable to those who were wounded. Forgiveness, simple tho it may seem in concept, is often the bitterest of drinks.
Second issue: Name calling on this site or any other demeans the writer more than the accused.
Third: Continuing to focus on an individual poster rather than the issue of plagiarism turns the spotlight away from the pertinent issue. Don't feed the alligators!
Let's not provide oxygen to fuel the flames of a war that can't be won. Until the editors of this site show some professionalism in what they allow to be posted, we will continue to have school yard name calling rather than intellectual discourse.
Feeling threatened is not an excuse for being abusive in word or deed. Not being able to control one's impulses is a sign of trouble brewing. It is never acceptable behavior....no matter what "women you might piss off on this site."
R
But, I think I am going to go back through my blogs and make sure that I have made the proper attributions. I think I am pretty good about this when it comes to the written word, but I am not sure that I have properly attributed photographs that I have used.
And, as I always say, I wouldn't want to be judged solely on my worst actions, so I hope that there will be some forgiveness here. (Easy for me to say, I know, as I wasn't the target of Scanner's post, but my own experiences with him have been good ones.)
Kyle - Thanks, I appreciate that. I think those are great questions and it just depends how far you want to go with it, you know. Most pictures could be found on Google images or key word phrases in a search engine. But, sometimes, they are difficult to find. You could also try searching key words from the email itself - sometimes you can find the originator of it. But, for the most part, if you at least say "I received this in an email" - that doesn't lead anyone to believe you are trying to pass something off as your own. You're safe.
Stellaa - Once again, I can't add anything to what you've said.
Oh, monkey, I was just confused then by your comments. I posted the link to the article and also quoted what scanner had called us. I didn't make it perfectly clear that it was a separate post because that wasn't the focus here. This isn't a reaction to being called a childish name - it's a reaction to an offense that I take seriously and he couldn't care less about.
I guess I don't understand being "sorry for him". What about the guy who wrote those words? What about the readers of scanners posts? Are you sure those are HIS words?
Yes, yes, he's a good man and I'm the bad guy.
Clark - Yet, I wonder if anything short of evisceration would be acceptable to those who were wounded. Forgiveness, simple tho it may seem in concept, is often the bitterest of drinks.
You're piling an awful lot of stuff on to me when no apology has been issued. I begged for an apology from him on his post, not for only me, for all of us. what I was met with the following day was shocking. Don't you think it's best to gauge a reaction to an apology once it's actually given and not before?
In one case, I found one of my Open Salon news pieces copied entirely wholesale on the online edition of a major metropolitan U.S. newspaper, without attribution, and was shocked (I'd found it doing a Google search of my own keywords). In another, I discovered that one of my former college professors had published a monograph that was essentially an extended version of a paper I'd written for him in the 1970's.
Ironically, I was also accused of copying a Wikipedia article once, when it was an article I'd (at least partially) written and edited. News sources took some of the wording from that Wikipedia article and used it when writing about the person in question's death. Even though I'd written my own article first, and the Wikipedia post, there were those who accused me of copying from either Wikipedia or the other news sources, and none were true.
I've seen a lot of cutting-and-pasting on Open Salon in my time here, occasionally without attribution. If I had a problem with it with an individual poster I'd likely do the same thing I occasionally do if I catch a spelling/typo/editing error, contact them privately. I happen to like everyone involved in this particular firestorm, so am not going to give the appearance of taking sides with regard to personalities.
Hi. You are sooooooooooooooooooo right about watching this place change from something really good, to an absolute mess. One big reason you rarely see me around, or even see me make a serious "contribution." Let them have it. I'm on your side.
Really, all he had to do was cite what he copied and pasted, but he didn't do that and maybe he wasn't intentionally plagiarizing, but it really is stealing. Folks that think it is okay wouldn't feel that way if it was part of their dinner that folks were cutting and pasting on to another plate so they could eat it without the preparation and cooking, not to mention any expenses involved in preparing the meal. But that is essentially what plagiarism is, stealing off the table of writers who actually invest in their work the effort that makes it original, and tasty to those who come by to read it. Writers don't pass out doggie bags unless you ask them to do so. That's what permission and citation of work amounts to in the first place. It's fair to use what others write if we don't hide that we were inspired by their works.
Good people make this mistake, and if they didn't know in the first place that it is wrong they wouldn't get mad about being caught, they'd just add the citations and apologize. That didn't happen in the case at hand, and it's a sad fact.
Greg, please don't be a sexist bully when you don't agree with us. You have way to much to share to waste your talent that way.
Julie, way to go. You've really drawn some traffic to an important issue. I just hope folks won't gang up on one another because of this, and instead, make note and follow the fair use doctrine. I'm sure everyone can google that.
Donna, there have to be standards and rules on OS and it's up to OS staff to enforce them. At least the basics for heaven's sake. Plagerism has no place on this site or any decent site for that matter. if this were more important to the editors, the offending post might have been flagged and removed by editors with a note to the author. there is no need to make this personal.
when people try to resolve issues like this, feelings take command. and that's what's happened in this situation.
Jeannette - I'm glad that it can at least remind us of that if nothing else. Whatever we write, a story from childhood, a poem, a stupid thing about reality tv - it's ours and it's not acceptable for anyone else to pretend it's theirs. No one's perfect, we've all done it by accident - just left something off or whatever. It happens. It's when it's intentional that something needs to be said.
I have to say I find it interesting that I'm the one who needs to be forgiving here. I'm the bitch, slimeball, skanky, cootch or whatever. But beyond that, I'm not the one who plagiarized. Scanner thinks what he did was perfectly fine and stated that many times. Yet, I'm the one who needs to cower to him? Seems a bit off to me.
Kathy - So, I think you can see the point and intent of this post. That's the problem with OS - you have to be on some imaginary side. It's stupid. The post isn't about scanner's actions or name calling - it's about his blatant plagiarism. Period. nothing to do with personalities.
Trout King - Thanks!
Bonnie, if you're addressing me with your suggestion that someone is "excusing" his behavior, I don't believe that I have. And if you got that impression from my earlier comments, I'll say it now: I don't
I was talking about forgiveness, even if there is no apology forthcoming. I'm sure you understand that that's something different.
But I'm not here to start a fight with anyone. I do understand the anger here.
Once again, the refrain: apology, followed by forgiveness. Sing it, children.
I have belonged to maybe ten different writing forums and after a time, they all are taken over by Trolls.
Hoyt Axton sang, "I think I'll hit the highway, I guess you're not the one." I will keep looking.
"INGREDIENTS: LIGHT TUNA, WATER, VEGETABLE BROTH (CARROTS,CELERY, PEAS, SOYBEANS),SALT"
Monkey - Point taken.
Clark - I can only go by your comments, and perhaps I should have said "wondering", but it's the same thing. no need to wonder about what my response would be to an apology. If it happens, you'll be able to see it. You can see in my comments on his post,which is linked here, that I wanted an apology - for the plagiarism. Although I'd sure as hell take one for his subsequent actions as well.
Jeannette - Forgive for plagiarizing or thinking it's perfectly fine?
Clark - You're really confusing the hell out of me. I'm not the one with the way with words, you are. "Forgiving someone for apologizing? That's "cowering"? What are you talking about?
Mister - I don't want to dissuade anyone from becoming an active member here. While it's completely disheartening to see this kind of behavior here, in this place of all places, I'm sure it's everywhere. But, maybe people will think twice about it now. Give it a try, you never know. There are some brilliant people here, they sometimes get lost in the feed.
So boy is it disappointing to see you got into a fight and I missed the opening volleys because it's been a while since I've gotten to deploy my particular brand of pompous invective.
I once considered dropping out of school rather than finish the citations for a paper I was working on, because that's how damned important appropriate citation is for researched writing. It's why I'm determined to never cite a fact ever again that I didn't personally fabricate. (It belatedly occurs to me that on a post that I did do research for, I neglected to cite Wikipedia for its numbers. Damn it.)
So at the risk of looking like some bitch-sycophant member of the Goon Squad, good for you for making a stand here. It isn't about the name-calling, it's about the fact that when one person here plagiarizes, it affects the integrity of everyone who writes here.
Ultimately, it's not my place or your place to forgive anyone for plagiarism. It can be pointed out, and the person can either acknowledge it or not. Beyond that, there's not much to be done. So in that case, I think letting go is the better option after a certain point.
It isn't about the name-calling, it's about the fact that when one person here plagiarizes, it affects the integrity of everyone who writes here.
Exactly!
This was aimed at Julie and no one else. I report what I've seen from her and that's it. I included no one else in my comment.
I certainly hate no one on here, and certainly not Julie. I find her "critiques" that just "must be said" to be dark and filled with negativity. As FusunA said, use your knowledge to enlighten via compassion, not a switch from a tree to the shirtless back.
you better know just how to act
if you say the wrong thing or look different
you might find a knife in your back
but it's alright now......
And here is the law on copyright. There is fair use, but usually, that involves analysis and at least citing your sources.
Not saying I condone it, I'm saying I think it's better to let someone's actions speak for themselves and then walk away when it's a non-professional situation. I don't feel what Scanner did reflects poorly on my writing here any more than the professional writers reflect well on me here. It all shakes out in the end as to who we are.
Scanner made a mistake. He was attacked. In more than one place. He felt it necessary to defend himself. Everybody acted poorly as far as I am concerned.
Whether this is a writer's or a bloggers site, I wold like to think we could a treat a each other with a little more compassion. And let's please move on!
Harry - You know I love you, but you are missing the point and the actual facts. Please read scanner's post and the article I linked here as well. Or just my comment on his post that had nothing to do with Wikipedia. At all.
But, just because someone isn't "professional" does that make it okay to use their words as your own? I don't follow that logic at all.
Sweet - Writer's site/blogger's site - plagiarism is plagiarism.
L&P - Exactly. Stick some quotes around it, add a name, no big deal.
Yeah, Bill gets all the attention. Which reminds me, I should change that avatar because I'm really, really, really old.
We've come a long way, baby.
I did read the original post when it first came out and I loved the story of the song and I don't care he failed to attribute something, that's on him to live with and the only damage he does is to himself. I'm just talking adding perspective here so there's not so much contention.
Deb - Amazing, isn't it?
Cindy - I have dibs on Mrs. Michaels! As fantastic in person as she is in black and white.
Amanda - I did not and perhaps I should have. I normally would have done so, but assumed that the ones who commented before me tried that approach. I don't know if that's the case or not.
OK - how many teachers in the house? A lot - I know.
Here's the scene:
TEACHER - This is not original work.
STUDENT - Yes it is.
TEACHER - No, it's not. See this?
(consequence - STUDENT fails and is possibly expelled)
STUDENT - Moooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
MOM - What?
STUDENT - My teacher hates me. She picks on me. I didn't do it.
(consequence - Mom becomes enraged)
MOM - TEAAAAAAACHERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr!!!!
TEACHER - What?
MOM - You're a horrible shrew and you bully my child.
TEACHER - Your kid cheated.
MOM - No he didn't. And I know he didn't because that was an accident - an oversight, an omission - and if you don't give him a passing grade, I'll go to the principal and I'll go after your job.
(Consequence - Teacher has to choose between moral obligation to society and edicts of professionalism or avoiding conflict)
OK - it doesn't always go down like that, but it does sometimes. The fact is that plagiarism is unacceptable. Regardless of how you get found out, it is never ok.
There is also another truth. This ain't school. For all the bellyaching and bitching about this being a "writer's site", about how pop culture and reality tv are worthless cover topics, about how EPs are not given to those with the most talent or creativity, I cannot wrap my brain around how anyone just dismisses the fact that using someone else's words is just flat-ass wrong.
Don't get me wrong, I'm prone to dropping some 2Live Crew without quotation marks and Lord knows I've let Dave Grohl speak his magic poetry through my fingertips without crediting his pure, rock-God, slippery goodness. I don't claim perfection, but I do know that some simple formatting will save you a world of shit when you do forget or skip it.
Sometimes the shit works out - like with 50 cent & Slim Shady ... but usually, not so much. Sampling, Jackin' Beats, Stealin' Shit - That will win you some Grammy's, but never any respect from writers. Like my boy Vanilla Ice and Those Damn Police ... bum bum bum bum buh bum bum bum or whatever.
What we have here, community-wise, is a case of "LOOTING" vs. "SURVIVAL" ... just like the photos from Katrina. Some see it this way, some see it another. If I know anything, it's that this crowd can't come together on the time of day, much less bigger issues. What if I did a post stating that drunks have the very best intentions of getting home without harming anyone and that MADD is just a big smelly cootchy goon squad? Would that fly? Yhea - that's what I thought.
"Can you smell my cootchie now?"
- be sure to quote me on that.
Cindy left a comment at Sally Swift's blog yesterday that had OSers spitting Pepsi and dying. She failed to reveal that her hilarious comment was stolen from The Sayings of Will Ross.
*YELLP*
*YELLP*
HELP!!!! ANIMAL ABUSE!!!!
Why can't we just write our own words and if we'd like to quote someone else cite it. simple. What isn't acceptable is delving into personal name calling . . . and don't post after you've been drinking. sit overnight on it. :)
stellaa & others - please don't stop posting thoughtful - even if counter - comments. one of the reasons I started writing on OS is that I looked forward to the exchange of ideas - the respectful and healthy debate of thought. I resisted blogging for a long time because the ones I read seemed to reference one another and veered so much into the personal and patting one another on the back. If I, and, in turn, you, are living in the now, and watching what we do and how we react to things, OS will be a healthy robust site of ideas - a blog site (which I'm under the impression it is).
I do get weary about referencing beta OS and how OS used to be. I joined when it was beta. That's the past. What can we all do presently to make OS what we want it to be? As we all know -- as in art - once something is created and put it out there it takes on a life of its own. You can't control it. In fact, we can't control much.
So please tell me, short of the "c" word, when we really, really, REALLY dislike someone on here (I know we should turn the other cheek, I get that), and we REALLY feel the need to respond with an adjective, just give me the list of approved words all of us misogynistic men can use without being castrated... Ok? Fair?
Mom - What a great analogy!
Snippy - Dave Grohl is never too early for mom.
Bonnie - Yeah, he certainly shocked the hell out of me with that comment. I think though I'm more upset by the fact that he can't understand what the actual issue is, which is why I decided to do this post.
Sweet - Thanks. I actually thought this was pretty thoughtful considering...
Oooh, Snippy - that one's gonna hurt.
Greg - Everything about that is so stupid. Surly and I are completely different people if that's what you are trying to infer here - my god, there are pictures everywhere! Nice try. It's too bad you can't go beyond yourself ans see what mom is saying.
So, from this point forward, when women refer to us in a derogatory manner, the word we will throw out there is "misandry". It is written, so it shall be. I thought no word could ever offend you? According to the "harsh truth" you lay down in your commentaries, that is what you implied. I'm sure Scanner hasn't slept for days...
Since you've been here, I know you've seen what I touched on and Stellaa knocked out of the park. It's a pretty sad state.
Dude, Greg, what are you even talking about? This post is about plagiarism. I don't see where I've mentioned misandry once. The only thing I said derogatory was that a person plagiarized someone else's work. Not really derogatory - just the truth. That person happens to be a man, I guess. What the fuck are you talking about? Again, nice try trying to make this about something it's not. Although, I'm not sure what Germans and racism has to do with anything. Weird.
Craze - I totally get what you're saying. However, writing is my life and livelihood (sometimes), so I take offense when someone doesn't respect other people's work.
Reference
Intentional plagiarism. (n.d.). Plagiarism.org. Retrieved March 20, 2010 from http://plagiarism.org/plag_article_educational_tips_on_plagiarism_prevention.html
http://plagiarism.org/plag_article_what_is_plagiarism.html
One more thing, there are so many fine writers here, I just feel as though it's everyone's job to keep this the fine site it can be.
R
p.s. Julie and all the others who were hurt by this, I'm sorry for your pain.
Jon - I couldn't agree more.
2. OS is like a small town--and a boon for many who should be, could be, may be published and for those who will never be published. We should be grateful for what we have.
3. Ladies, being proud to be called a "bitch" is not everyone woman's idea of being "good". In fact, some of us (and I'm no daisy!) are ashamed when that badge is slapped on our chest. What about a friendly PM to the "offender", suggesting he go in and credit his source or add a link? Why bring out the big guns?
4. I suggest all y'all check out the film "Where the Wild Things Are", and ask yourself---how many of those "Wild Things" do I have running amok in my head? I mean, who really wants to cast the first stone? And do we really want to be throwing stones?
5. Aren't we primarily, anti-war, pro peace talks, folks on this site? Pay close attention to the dirt-clod war scene in the film---there is a wealth of psychological and emotional insight---you can feed on it for days.
6. I put up with the gross display of drunken "pirating" on this site a number of months ago--and was sickened at the the liberal abuse of the freedoms of a site like OS--more so than scanner's recent misstep. Let's get some perspective here!
7. Scanner is one of the most generous and loyal readers on OS--I think the ladies owed scanner an apology.
Pure class and my point is made! If you're going to say "fucktard", you may as well say what you're disguising, "retard". But oh no, that would be more politically correct than the socially accepted "fucktard". Hypocrite. (Is that word ok? Is it offensive? Is it misogynistic?)
What exactly do I owe him an apology for?
"Julie, I would not apologize to you if they strapped my privates to a battery and shocked them until they fell off. You are nothing but trash. People like you just make the world a sadder place to live, having to watch you slime your away around people. Go hang out in an alley and you may find a friend, but you would have to pay them to hang out with a scumbag like you!"
Yeah, nice guy alright.
Greg - Maybe two comments out of the hundred even mentioned anything about the difference of when a man has a dissenting opinion and when a woman does it. Again, nice try. This is a post about plagiarism - do you have anything to add to it?
My opinion of you has nothing to do with you being a man, I'm sure I would think the same if you were a woman too.
Craze - Please don't presume to know what I care about and what I don't. My remarks are in direct correlation to yours. That's it.
Thanks for the discussion on plagiarism.
Come to think of it, he didn't name his source so I suppose he's claiming these as his own.
http://open.salon.com/blog/kind_of_blue/2010/03/18/almost_friday_not_quite_dumb_blonde_jokes
Just so we're clear, and politically correct, I think you're an asshat. I'd think that no matter your gender/sex. Your personality and your attitude towards me and towards Julie is what I based that upon. You are forever taking jabs at Julie because she had the cojones to call you on your shit on more than one occasion, and you, clearly don't have the stones to take criticism.
Now, stop bothering me. It's Saturday and I have way better things to do with my time than listen to you whine.
The bigger issue to me is the reaction to having it pointed out, which was to immediately attack and in quite a nasty fashion.
But even that is just one person. It's the fact that a lot of people have no trouble with that response -- and in fact are repeatedly defending it and justifying it -- that truly disturbs me.
I missed this blow up so have had to read the posts in question this AM to catch up. But the follow up one from Scanner about "the bitches" was deleted, so I Googled to see if I could view a cached version. And ladies, speaking of proper quotes, I'm here to tell you that you've been misquoting the subject line. According to Google, it's:
"Stanky fishy coochie smelling bitches - scanner - Open Salon"
There was no cached version so I can't view it, but just the title is really offensive to me. It's ugly, hateful, disgusting.
Defenders of Scanner, tell me: Is there some way this title can be explained to be acceptable? In response to, well, anything? Is this really the way a "good guy" writes about women? Even women he's angry with or feels wronged by?
I know a lot of good guys and they would never talk or write like this, even when really angry. ( I've seen a lot of them when angry, and they still don't respond this way.)
I really wish there were civility standards on this site. And yes, I mean for both genders, for everyone.
Calling people names, writing attack posts, saying "Fuck you" (thank god THAT phrase isn't copyrighted, because a lot of people would be in trouble if it was) -- it's all pointless and ugly and it only reflects badly on those who do it, no matter the provocation.
We can't control other people's behavior. But we can all behave in the way we wish others would. Yes, that tired old Golden Rule. It actually works. And that's my suggestion for how to reverse what many here are saying is an ugly slide in behavior at OS: Start treating everyone with the courtesy you would like to receive. (And if you can't do that, walk away from the computer and ignore them.)
Ugliness spreads. But fortunately kindness does, too.
If it's a matter of not knowing, then a person can say I didn't know, and move on. From the vicious response, I don't think that was the case. The attacks were disgusting; equally disgusting were the people who defended the attacks AND the plagiarism.
You don't have to be a professional writer to know that plagiarism is WRONG, whatever the excuse or person doing it. As an educator, I've heard every excuse in the book and none of them has ever rung true. The attitude seems to be it doesn't matter if you don't get caught, and if you do get caught, attack the person who catches you.
Like a lot of writers here, I am very leery now of posting anything that is original that I might want to sell elsewhere. When so many people think plagiarism is OK if they like the person doing it, it doesn't equal a comfortable place to write.
Like Stellaa, I rarely comment at OS any more because it's just not worth the effort if all that people want to hear is "how wonderful." Even the slightest hint of less than gushing praise is treated as hostile criticism by way too many thin-skinned people here who never tire of projecting their insecurities onto others. OS has changed, and as others have said, not for the better. I'm glad I was here for at least part of the "good old days."
this is not to say what was being said was incorrect. and further this is not to defend what was done. what i'm seeing what the manner of confrontation was..well, confrontational.
perhaps ms Ablond, ms Russell, ms Tarp felt that plagerism or someone who "borrows" from another writer without attributing deserves no such respect or consideration. I assume there is a reason why they came at him in this way.
so the offender did his evil coochie post. then I guess thought the better of it, and took it down.
now everyones underdrawers are wadded up, backs are against the wall and no one's budging.
there's no need to sledgehammer someone just because they're wrong. there's no need to stonewall others because they've hurt your feelings.
good has come of this:
MUCH discussion about plagiarism and attributing and crediting!
MUCH discussion about not calling women coochies and bitches!
so both sides win and both sides lose.
How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all? - Firesign Theater.
You're not only surly, you're just nasty. Julie can't take criticism any more than any other person on here either. If she could, she would have simply let whatever Scanner or anyone else said, go...
Again, hypocrisy. Oh, and misandrists. Both of you, and a couple of more.
1. Scanner's claim that he was attacked "in concert" seems valid.
2. The attack claim can be justified by the post's front page headline: Plagiarism On OS.
3. Several readers have complained about the inability of OS editors to detect plagiarism. Can they give me an estimate on the size of the editorial staff required?
4. Scanner has frequently stated that he is trying to become a writer. My reaction to that is I will accept an occasional blooper on his part. I think "blooper" is what it is when you fail to correctly use attribution protocol -- in OS posts. OS is not the Associated Press.
5. The comments have strayed from plagiarism to sexism to misogyny! I'd like to add vulgarity and crudities.
6. Please review the following comments to this post.
ClarkK 09:01 AM
FunsA 09:10 AM
But, if I had written a blog, I would have called it "Predictability", because just about everything that has happened here has been predictable.
A person writes a blog that plagiarizes another source without attribution. Some other persons understandably take issue with it and confront that person on their blog. I'm betting that if those people had PM'd the person about it, this whole situation might not have happened. Please note that I'm not saying what those people did was wrong. What I'm saying is that the response was fairly predictable.
The person felt attacked and probably embarrassed. So he lashed out in a wildly ugly and inappropriate way. Again, wrong and inappropriate -- but pretty predictable.
Next came the predictably outraged responses. After that came the predictable non-apology apology and a whole host of responsive blogs on the subject.
I'm not defending plagiarism or posting blogs about "stanky fishy coochie smelling bitches". Both of those things are wrong. But, again, what happened was completely predictable, given the way the situation was addressed.
And now we've got everyone firmly encamped in various corners, and probably a lot of relationships ruined. I find that sad.
So, I guess, in the end, what I'm defending is the concept of forgiveness, of trying to be the bigger person (even if the other person isn't), of not defining a person by their most outrageous or ugly act, and of letting things go.
Again, I realize that's easier said and done if one doesn't have a particular dog in the hunt, but what's the alternative? Holding grudges and escalating the ugliness. Endless accusations and counter-accusations, and "But what he/she did was worse!" statements that serve to accomplish absolutely nothing.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
I still think the best tactic is to avoid the negative and nurture the positive. I've noticed that there are several OS members who are extremely well-liked and respected who never comment on any of these meta matters. Not a peep. And I think that's one big reason why they're well-liked and respected. Staying out of thrashes is a good policy. I'm going to go back to working on it!
This is about plagiarism. Period. Something that should concern everyone here. Why exactly should I feel bad that the guy's feelings were hurt because he got caught? I don't get that. I wonder how the other writers of his material will feel when they see his name attached to their work.
The level that this sank to is not because of anything I said. All I did was write the truth with PROOF. Why shouldn't that be okay? But, now it has crossed a line. A legal one.
I won't say anything further.
. . .to Julie Tarp's blog on Open Salon.
Conflating all forms of plagiarism with what Scanner did is just plain wrong and unfair. A blogsite is just not that important. It's like cheating in a creative writing class. The only person you really cheat is yourself. One can say "theft is theft" but I still say there's a difference between stealing a candy bar and stealing a car.
And for the record, anyone can steal anything of mine anytime for any reason. I pity the poor bastard who has to stand behind my words. I just know that when I die the only important thing will be that my words were heard. But I apply this to myself alone.
Check it out. http://www.dustball.com/cs/plagiarism.checker/
For instance: In running Julie Tarp's "original screen play" scene through a Plagiarism Checker (which by the way I have done) there are multiple instances where her "original screen play" is word-for-word the original screen play for the movie "Giant"
How's that for plagiarism! Not only do you plagiarize your owm posts, you do it to whole screenplays. This is backed up by your buddy Emma. What say you plagiarizer?
Can one plagiarize their own work? Interesting question.
It's LATE.
It's time for bysies.
... and God bless julie, and ablonde, and bonnie, and scanner too ...
and god bless silkstone, and stellaa and surly and clark and even though he wasn't here God bless greg, and God bless you.
This is going to make me more watchful re: my own use of images, music, etc. Which I do accredit sometimes, sometimes not, I confess. But I'm moving toward it. Went back to an old blog last week (before this) and attributed an image.
As for my words, they are my own, for better or worse!
Good job, Julia, for standing up and being brave.
(SPOKEN)
Folks, I'd like to sing a song about the American dream.
About me, about you, about the way our American hearts beat way down in the bottom of our chests. About the special feeling we get in the cockles of our hearts, maybe below the cockles, maybe in the sub-cockle area, maybe in the liver, maybe in the kidneys, maybe even in the colon. We don't know.
(SUNG)
I'm just a regular Joan with a regular job.
I'm your average white suburbanite slob.
I like football and porno and books about war.
I've got an average house with a nice hardwood floor.
My husband and my job, my kids and my car.
My feet on my table and a Cuban cigar.
But sometimes that just ain't enough to keep a woman like me interested (oh no) no way (uh-uh). No, I've gotta go out and have fun at someone else' expense.
(oh yeah) yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
I drive really slow in the ultra-fast lane,
While people behind me are going insane.
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, such an asshole)
I use public toilets and piss on the seat,
I walk around in the summertime saying "How about this heat?"
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (she's the world's biggest asshole)
Sometimes I park in handicapped spaces,
While handicapped people make handicapped faces.
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (she's a real fucking asshole)
Maybe I shouldn't be singing this song
Ranting and raving and carrying on
Maybe they're right when they tell me I'm wrong?
NAAAAH!
I'm an asshole (she's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (she's the world's biggest asshole)
(SPOKEN)
You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado convertible, hot pink, with whale skin hubcaps and all leather cow interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights. Yeah! And I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115 miles an hour, getting 1 mile per gallon, sucking down quarter pounder cheeseburgers from McDonald's in the old-fashioned non- biodegradable Styrofoam containers! And when I'm done suckin' down those grease ball burgers I'm gonna wipe my mouth on the American flag and then toss the Styrofoam containers right out the side, and there ain't a God-damned thing anybody can do about it. You know why? Because we got the bombs, that's why!
Two words--nuclear fucking weapons, OK? Russia, Germany, Romania - they can have all the democracy they want. They can have a democracy cakewalk right through the middle of Tianannmen Square and it won't make a lick of difference, because we've got the bombs, OK? John Wayne's not dead - he's frozen! And when we find a cure for cancer, we're gonna thaw out the Duke and he's gonna be pretty pissed off. You know why? You ever taken a cold shower? Well, multiply that by 15 million times. That's how pissed off the Duke's gonna be.
I'm gonna get the Duke and John Cassavettes and Lee Marvin (Hey) and Sam Peckinpah (Hey) and a case of whiskey (Hey) and drive down to Texas! (Hey, Hey, Hey)
(Hey you know you really are an asshole)
Why don't you just shut up and sing this song pal.
I'm an asshole (She's an asshole, what an asshole)
I'm an asshole (She's an asshole, what an asshole)
A - S - S - H - O - L - E.
Everybody, A - S - S - H - O - L - E.
Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf Arf
(SPOKEN)
I'm an asshole and I'm proud of it!
(Original "I'm An Asshole" Lyrics by Denis Leary)
Denis Leary - Asshole Lyrics
Album: No Cure For Cancer
Dude, if you are as enlightened as you have reported, then you're better than the petty droppings you've been leaving around all day.
Anyway, maybe it's time to cool out for a while? Bump some Coltrane?
As for the context of why I posted the Leary lyrics, humor. It was to me and still is. I make no apologies unless I mean it. Like the country is split in politics, the OS politics is split on this one. I'm on one side, the others on the other. Not on plagiarism or sexism, but purely on the people who initially start these (pardon this new cliche') "dust ups".
I do hate them but wasn't going to sit this one out. Julie has had this coming and it's not about me. It's about her. Her and her goon squad that follow her.
That's as honest as I can be and I don't apologize. Emma, my mom is quite proud of me. She looks at me for more than a blog site. If you don't like me (and I'm quite sure you don't based on your nasty PM) then do as you so often preach to people, ignore me.
Hypocrisy again.
I'm not a part of a goon squad and frankly you have upset me insinuate that I am. It is possible to not agree with someone and not have it be a conspiracy.
for those of you who think Scanner is such a great guy, here is the google cache for his post
have you lost your mind?
* Reply
* Forward
emma peel to © Kind of Blue ® ™
Your behavior toward Julie in particular, but also surly is absolutely unconscionable. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are no longer any acquaintance of mine, and I have blocked you on Facebook. Grow up and get a life, Greg.
I'd say it's a lot less "nasty" than anything he's posted here.
hey, waite, i wanna be on tha goon sqad!!
Goon squad! Where do I sign up?
I just wonder Why some post get put into my SPAM?
I just discovered 'STUFF' that makes me so bewildered.
`
You 'ought' to translate this into twenty-three languages.
`
Maybe `Amy_will_insist that commenter `thoth (TRUTH) -
?
Where is `Ablonde etcetera? No mention `Troth? You get?
SCAMMED?
`
Your SPAM (this Blog etc.,) somehow end-up in my SPAM.
`
Why?
No worry.
Reap/sow.
`
Who is blogger `Thoth?
He's not a bird lark in tune?
He act as a mean bumble bee?
`
I agree?
You blog.
You nice.
Howdy.
`
I'm sad Lobster season ends.
Boats here haul in the traps.
I feel like Lobster in pants.
Lawyer insist I behave.
No put bee in britches.
Careful with privates.
I mean be cautious.
People read here.
`
I feel like tea
Cake and tea
No pin badge
`
If Your Blogger
nice` Ablonde
some Otters
and Behave
`