Kemstone

Kemstone
Location
Togane, Japan
Birthday
December 31
Title
Teacher
Bio
I'm teaching English in foreign countries as a way to see the world. I lived in Germany for three years and have been in Japan since August of 2011.

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MARCH 29, 2011 6:01AM

The Murky Moral Questions of Libya

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I’ve remained silent on the Libya issue until now for a number of reasons, the first and foremost being that it’s taken me a long time to settle on a position.  Even now my opinion is highly nuanced and subject to change as the situation develops and more information comes to light.  Normally I’ll only write a blog post when I feel very strongly about something or I have an opinion that I don’t see being expressed much elsewhere, but since this is a rather significant event in modern American history I feel obliged to write down my thoughts even if they’re neither unique nor firmly held.

The question of whether the United States should have gotten involved in the conflict between Gadhafi and the rebels seeking to overthrow him can be approached from two basic standpoints: intentions and consequences.  If we take the stated intentions of President Obama at face-value, it seems we did the right thing going in.  Gadhafi did promise to murder many thousands of his own people, and if the prevention of genocide isn’t a justifiable reason to use military force then I don’t know what is.  I think we have a moral obligation to prevent genocide wherever and whenever we can.

However, it’s hard to justify intervening in Libya when we didn’t also intervene in Rwanda, the Sudan, and Darfur.  It calls our motives into question when we selectively intervene like this, and the fact that Libya has oil while these other countries don’t taints the entire moral calculation as to whether or not our intentions here are correct.

But when all is said and done, oil or no oil, consistency or inconsistency, I think it’s better to have done something than to have done nothing.  As one commentator said, I’d rather prevent some genocide some of the time than to prevent no genocide any time.

As for judging the rightness of our actions based on the consequences, this is almost impossible at this early stage.  We may help the rebels topple Gadhafi and pave the way for a bourgeoning democracy, in which case history will judge our actions quite kindly.  We might fail to oust Gadhafi and genocide will occur anyway, in which case all we’ll have done is waste a lot of resources.  And we might find ourselves locked in yet another quagmire from which we can’t seem to extract ourselves no matter how many allies initially went in with us, in which case we’ll have another Iraq- or Afghanistan-like situation on our hands and we’ll have to judge Obama just as harshly as we judged Bush for getting us into a mess with no clear plan for getting us out.

But for now, we seem to have prevented Gadhafi from murdering thousands of his own people, so from a standpoint of consequences I would still judge our actions correct at the moment.

Of course it’s even more complicated when you consider some of the side-issues involved here.  For one, I think we did the right thing by acting under the banner of the United Nations, letting France make the first move and handing off leadership as soon as possible.  The last thing we want is to reinforce the perception of those in the Muslim world that we’ll use any excuse we can to drop bombs on Muslim countries.  I think that if we play our cards right, this could really help us change the narrative of Muslim perceptions of the United States.  In this case, at least, we are siding with the people against their brutal dictator.  If we did this more consistently, I think it would be a far more effective tactic in the “war on terror” than any occupation ever could.

However, we can’t escape the possibility that this whole thing could backfire.  If we help the rebels topple Gadhafi and then pull out and say, “you’re on your own” and the situation descends into chaos and violence, we might very well be blamed.  Once you extend your hand to help one side win a fight, it could look very bad for us to pull our hand away when the initial fight is over.  Conversely, if we stick around to help the freed Libyans in the aftermath of their revolution, we could be perceived as once again meddling in affairs we have no business sticking our noses in.  Making sure this is a multi-national operation will help to mitigate that perception, but I worry we may soon find ourselves in a lose-lose situation.

Then there’s the issue of whether Barack Obama should have sought congressional approval for this military action.  I am personally very uncomfortable with the idea of the imperial presidency, so I would have liked to see some discussion about this before we went in.  I don’t like how the president can just plunge our nation into an international conflict without giving our representatives a chance to debate the merits in public and the media a chance to delve into the details for the sake of the public’s understanding.

From a pragmatist’s standpoint, however, I understand why this particular president would have chosen to bypass this particular congress at this particular moment in American politics.  The Republicans will seize any opportunity to weaken the president no matter what the consequences, and handing them a chance to obstruct this military action for the sake of scoring political points would not have been worth the potential loss of tens of thousands of Libyan lives.  Still, I would rather have seen some more discussion about this before we went in, and I’m very wary of the idea that any future president can bomb any country for any reason without seeking the approval of the American people in any way.

The final point I want to make is perhaps the only opinion I hold with 100% conviction, and that is that every American with a shred of respect for logic has to admit that the Republican Party has no interest in either ideological consistency or what is best for this country.  I don’t think anyone who is honest with themselves could believe that had George W. Bush done the exact same thing in this situation, the Republicans who are currently criticizing Obama wouldn’t have supported him 100%.  It should be abundantly clear to any rational person that Republicans and the commentators on Fox News will criticize Obama for anything, for any reason, no matter how much it contradicts positions they’ve previously held.

Either he shouldn’t have intervened at all, he should have intervened sooner, or in Newt Gingrich’s case both—depending on which day you ask.  Some who cheered for the Iraq invasion now jeer American intervention as though they’ve always been opposed to it.  Some who derided anyone who criticized Bush’s policies at a time of war as “unpatriotic” and accused them of “demoralizing the troops” are the very same people who are now criticizing Obama’s policies at a time or war.  Somehow it doesn’t “embolden the enemy” to criticize a Democratic president at a time of war, only a Republican.

And last but certainly not least by far—any Republican who called for intervention (either before or after the actual intervention) should be forced to explain to the American people why we can afford to pay for foreign military campaigns but we have to cut pay for middle-class workers, take away food stamps and heating assistance from the poor, slash Social Security and Medicare, de-fund NPR, bust up the unions, and do all of these other things they insist we must do for the sake of “fiscal responsibility”.  If we can afford to send hundreds of millions of dollars worth of cruise missiles to Northern Africa, I think we can afford to hand out a few food stamps.

So these are my thoughts on the Libya question at this point in time.  I rarely support the president these days, but on this one I think he did the right thing (although I do have my reservations about his failure to involve Congress).  I’m not an ideological pacifist or an isolationist—I do think violence can be justified to prevent more violence and I do think stronger nations ought to defend weaker ones—and I think this falls into the narrow category of morally justifiable military actions.  I just wish we were more consistent.

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"I don’t think anyone who is honest with themselves could believe that had George W. Bush done the exact same thing in this situation, the Republicans who are currently criticizing Obama wouldn’t have supported him 100%. "

That's surmise about facts not in evidence. What's factual and actual is that the Democratic Party is currently giving Obama a pass for taking many of the same types of actions for which the Dems excoriated Bush for years. You've got the hypocrisy shoe on the wrong foot.
This is a through and well-written exploration of the difficult issues about Libya.

I am a progressive leftist on most issues but do not hesitate to support overthrowing someone like Q. Not a bit of hypocrisy or disconnect. The right likes to pretend the left is some snapshot from the summer of love, but it was the left, not the right, who fielded 30,000 in the international brigade in Spain, who thus first fought the Nazis and fascists in Spain in the mid-30s. (And yet there are some on the far-right who like to pretend that Hitler was a leftist hippie.)

Admittedly it was the left's fuzzy, Stalinist-apologist mindset that kept us from seeing how those same brigades were used by the USSR, and it all came crashing down when the anarchists and communists went into pitched battle in Madrid, imploding the defense against Franco.

The opposition against Vietnam was principled opposition to an unjust and pointless war for most of us on the left.

I applaud Clinton's successful stabilization of first Kosovo and then the Balkans.

A lot of us on the left thought that, first, Kissinger should be jailed for war crimes for the illegal bombing of Cambodia that led directly to Pol Pot, and second, that we were then morally obligated to go after and stop Pol Pot.

Bush was right to go into Afghanistan and borderlands of Pakistan. The situation now in A is murkier, but I don't see how abandoning our effort there is prudent. Iraq was a colossal mistake and we were lied to and it made things worse between Arabs and the US.

In other words I observe that many on the left are pragmatic and reason-based, going back to FDR, Kennedy, and Clinton, and currently Obama. All of my best leftist friends are also oriented towards case-by-case, and we are biased against dictators. The right traditionally supports them.

Noisy far-leftists on the media are mostly doctrinaire and anti-any-war. So I understand how far-right folks argue that the left is like this -- but only if they both ignore the actual history of Democrats I cite above, and continue to change the subject to what the left is or isn't instead of dealing with the rudderless, inept, far-right neo-cons that STILL control their vapid, catastrophic foreign policy ideas.
Fine post, Kemstone, and equally well-reasoned comment, Greg. Osmond, why do you even bother?
"However, it’s hard to justify intervening in Libya when we didn’t also intervene in Rwanda, the Sudan, and Darfur."

I think this is an illustration of how different administrations handle foreign policy.
As for Obama, what do you expect? For obvious reasons he is ineffective because that was the goal from day one. At this point I don't really believe he would be too upset if he wasn't reelected.


Matt Paust--LOL
what this a fucken teacher does not know U.S.A. history?...ever heard of the Tet Offensive, Nixon' s Christimas Bombing of Hanoi & the Killing Fields of Cambodia?...fucken civilians are always killed in any War....ever heard of the Trail of Tears, Sand Creek & Wounded Knee Massacres?....prez obama will fucken spend us into bankruptcy trying to save the arab people in muslim world, and he claims to be an full-blooded American!......what a naive dumbass teacher.
Let's not be too tough on Kemstone, GC, and the always fun MP.

They cannot be having a great day given that Obama is pursuing Bush-like policies, that he is finally speechifying about American exceptionalism (even though he still doesn't have the guts to use that exact word) , and that he is telling little tales about how Americans are being greeted as liberators in Libya.

This must really hurt our libs.

The agendas of both the loyalists and the protesters are, by all accounts, murky. The only point of crystal clarity is that Qaddafi (a/k/a Gadhafi) is a powerful murderer. With characteristic lack of focus, this is the one issue that Obama chooses to evade. Similarly, while extolling American leadership, he can't wait to hand it off like a hot potato to a coalition that, as of today, was not quite sure whether it was quite ready to accept the toss.

What a guy we got as our leader!
My biggest concern is that we may not be getting accurate and complet information that we need to makes decissions. This is routine.

Also if it is put in a larger context it should be clear that the USA puts much more emphasis on force than it does on education. they even rely on propaganda mostly at home to gaurenttee taht we don't really know what their doing or why.
Hmmm. Corporations kill thousands of us here at home. They just do so slowly... Maybe someone will swoop in and save us Americans!

That Washington picks and chooses which people we save from fairly certain death around the globe I find interesting, and I still have a hard time with the fact that we are told that we can't pay school teachers but have started yet another military adventure in the Middle East.

That other historically colonial powers (France and Britain) have joined forces with the U.S. against an African nation doesn't make the picture any prettier, in my book...

Not saying Ghadafi is a great guy. But Obama hasn't sold me on the Libyan adventure.
By the way, did anyone notice Obama's big lie about the Iraq situation?

Having spent quite a bit of air time saluting his handling of the Libya matter, much in the same way as kemstone tells us more than anyone needs to know about his "intellectual" processes which led him to a "nuanced" post, Obama can't resist taking a poke at his intellectual and moral superior George Bush by saying that it took Bush 8 years to effect regime change in Iraq.

In case Obama missed it, Sadam Hussein was dethroned and hiding out in ant hills within months, certainly not years.

Another example of Obama's willingness to rewrite history to conform to his elaborate sense of self-regard. Yuk!
"we’ll have to judge Obama just as harshly as we judged Bush for getting us into a mess with no clear plan for getting us out."

not so. obama is reacting to pressing events. the neocons were looking for an excuse to invade iraq and thought they were well prepared to do so.

after cheering on the 'arab spring' the west could not well watch a popular rebellion be squashed. libya is not iraq. the usa remains the usa, and humanitarian concerns were underneath electoral advantage, and various geopolitical concerns.

let's hope the libyans are better off, even if by accident.
It is kinda difficult to figure out the pro and anti-Gaddafi numbers in Libya. And if there was to be a free vote we have no idea of how much support he has.
Furthermore no one really knows who the "rebels" are, ideology wise?
More than freedom and democracy, what the U.S would ideally like are stooges, a government which accepts U.S global hegemony. And if these 'rebels' refuse to toe the line, we'll see more trouble.
I quit reading after "If we take the stated intentions of President Obama at face-value." All governments lie. O-bomb-ya is proving quite adept at it. This is not about helping civilians or going in for humanitarian reasons. It is about oil. Libya has lots of it, and the West wants it. So, once again, we are bombing our way in to take our oil from them. We will prop up a corrupt leader and pretend there is democracy because we will rig elections (see Iraq and Afghanistan). This was a civil war. The armed rebels co-opted the non -violent pro- democracy youth movement and extinguished it. We are aiding armed rebels, not non-violent civilians. Civilians died in Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Ivory Coast and Syria. Will we be bombing those countries as well?
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Gordon, I think it's clear that there's plenty of hypocrisy on both sides. I perceive that more of it is coming from the right, but I recognize my bias and can only hope you recognize yours.

Greg, Matt, and Cordellia: thanks. I think we pretty much agree.

Zach, not having enough information is a huge part of the problem. I'd have a much easier time judging this if I knew more of the details. We're expected to simply trust that our intelligence officials know what they're doing, and they don't exactly have a spotless track record.

Rob, you know I share your cynicism with regard to Obama and America's selective interventionism, but wouldn't you rather we stop SOME genocides than stop NONE of them?

Al, for once I think I agree with you.

Salmandar, the lack of clarity as to who these rebels are is one of the reasons this is so difficult to judge, but I feel better about giving them a chance than letting Gadhafi--whom we already KNOW is a murderous bastard--hold onto the reigns.

Alaska, if you had read past the line you said you stopped at, you'd have seen that I acknowledged the oil issue. But you can't be against something just because the U.S. might gain strategically. If saving 10,000 lives is merely a byproduct of a selfish action, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

I think that addresses everyone whose comments were worthy of a response.
Mazel tov on the EP. You deserve it.

We didn't intervene in Rwanda and I've heard it theorized that that's one reason we did intervene in Libya, because Bill Clinton really regrets not having intervened in Rwanda and that may have swayed Hillary into backing the Libyan venture.

I haven't heard enough details to conclude that genocide was in the cards. Genocide and mass murder are not the same thing.

I agree that most of the GOP, particularly Fox's news outlet ("Fox News" having by now turned into an oxymoron) criticize President Obama as a matter of general policy rather than as a reaction to any specific action. His actions at this point aren't causes for reaction so much as excuses for reaction. This reminds me a little of Rush Limbaugh's reaction to Hillary Clinton - a virulent hatred that had precious little to do with anything she did because she never did anything that could inspire such a response in anyone reasonable while she was First Lady. In terms of the claim that the GOP would have backed Bush fully if he'd bombed Libya, we have more recent evidence of that particular double standard: the Tea Party never criticized Bush for the mortgage bailout, saving all their extremely virulent blame for Obama, mostly for actions that Bush originated. That in itself told me all I needed to know about the motivations of the Tea Party.

I'm not a knee-jerk critic of Bush 2 but I think he got way too much wrong. The initial invasion of Afghanistan was justified. The justification for invading Iraq came after the fact - I'd been told by someone I knew with military connections that our soldiers had been told we were going to Iraq before 9/11. (I don't just mean that the soldiers were told before 9/11, I mean that my conversation took place before 9/11. The British later corroberrated in public that the invasion was planned before 9/11 occurred.) The invasion of Iraq was based on deliberate fraud.

On Libya, I have the same concerns you do. Why wasn't Congress consulted? Why were we the first in at all?

We'll see.
I don't delete abusive, substance-free comments because the people who make such comments are only embarrassing themselves. Unless they send you a private message, like this one I got from 28spirits:

"what are you saying is just like any fucken school teacher that unless your fucken students follow your fucken rules in your fucken class you will ignore them....

that's the trouble with all your fucken know-it-alls for you thunk you are some kind of fucken master over everyone....you are so fucken young and inexperienced in the 3-L's of his-story and just a fucken dumbass school teacher teaching the fucken 3-r's.

and, you are going to teach during the fucken meltdown in japland!

what are you fucken nuts too!"

I guess because I'm a teacher, this guy considers me to be The Enemy. Perhaps if I explained I'm non-union...

I love having my opinions challenged and engaging in honest debate with those who see things differently--it's one of the main reasons I blog in the first place. But make an actual ARGUMENT if you want a response--don't just hurl profanity-laced insults. That just says to me, "I'm only trying to get a rise out of you--nothing you could possibly say will change my point of view, so you shouldn't bother."
Thanks, Kosh! I hadn't heard that about Hillary and the possibility that her regrets about Rwanda being one of the reasons for intervention in Libya. And it's extremely interesting that the soldiers were told we were going into Iraq even before 9/11. It's more evidence that this is not the same situation, and people who were opposed to one are not necessarily hypocrites because they support the other.